Most offroad capable class of vehicle
 

I'm a biker, but thinking about getting a 4wd one of these days so my better half can come with.

The one thing I miss on my bike, is some of the trails are too hard for me, on my fully loaded bike, to handle.

What CLASS of 4WD is most off road capable (water crossings / big rocks / steep inclines)? eg. jeep vs large unimog style vehicle.

Probably a noob question, but like i said, im usually in the biker section of the forum.

thanks
NY-lon

you'll probably get as many opinions on this as people who respond.

Basically, the question you ask is too open. it covers everything from a landrover 90 to a 19ton truck. A Ural truck will have greater ground clearance and wading ability than a landrover, but do you really need all it's shortcomings such as fuel consumption and physical size?

What suits one persons situation won't suit anothers. It depends on what type of tracks you intend driving, how many people, for how long and carrying how much gear. Do you want to sleep in the vehicle or on the vehicle etc etc etc.

You will also probably get a lot of conflicting arguments depending on the brand loyalty of the respondents (usually Toyota vs Landrover)

In broad terms, short of a tractor, a unimog is probably the most competent off roader out there. There are a variety of models to choose from but size, mechanical complexity, parts availability and fuel consumption are downsides.

Of the smaller class of more standard 4x4s most arguments come down to Toyota vs Landrover vs jeep. of those I would say the landrover 90 is the most capable off roader straight out of the box. However, it lacks carrying capacity and short wheelbase vehicles like that (and the jeep) can be 'entertaining' at speed on corrugations. Do you really need that level of off road ability on the type of tracks you will be driving? Certainly in the UK Landrover also have the best supply of aftermarket bits and bobs (same probably for jeep in America, although Toyota have a good following there)and, certainly pre td5 are also easier to work on. Offset against that are concerns about reliability and build quality where Toyota leave landrover a long way behind. As the saying goes, 'if you want to go on an expedition, take a landrover, if you want to come back again take a Toyota!'.

There are a range of larger off road trucks from Ford etc which would potentially give a compromise between the two extremes. where you are based there are a multitude of good options.

My advice would be to read a bit more around the subject and decide the general type of vehicle you would need. For example, if your going rock crawling that demands a very different type of vehicle to if you want to go on an expedition through the Americas. Then ask more specific questions. Otherwise it's a bit like me saying 'I'd like a motorbike, which one is best?'!

Or a helicopter:eek3:

Here you find some stuff for thinking about:

Trans-Africa: Welches Fahrzeug?


Look at first at your budget and the space you need. Sleeping in normal tents can save you many bucks, compared to rooftents or sleeping inside.

You can equip near any "good" 4x4 with bigger mud terrain tyres, snorkel, breathers.

Also consider a 4x4 Van, more space inside - with the trade off - of a less capable offroad vehicle.

The brands depends on your travel destinations. With an exotic car you may get trouble to get spare parts.. Mercedes or Toyota you find near everywhere..

Before you start thinking vehicle , think where do I want to go (type of road/track how extreme) Then think how many are we , and what degree of comfort/security do I want . The permutations are considerable . If you can answer these three questions , this will really narrow the search , and you will be able to get much more specific advise . eg remote narrow tracks , two people , camping level of comfort , eg washing in a bucket , low security risk . Then for example you could have a LR 90 , Jeep Wrangler , with a roof tent . HTSH

Do you want to do extreme off road in what is essentially your home. If you are in the back of beyond then probabily not

I've traded offroad ability for a bigger vehicle (Iveco daily) and am happy with the trade but my old 101 went where defenders feared to tread - it had the muscle to push through snow whereas the defenders were grounding.

Much of overland travel is actually on poor or graded roads so strength of vehicle is important out outright off road ability not so much. If you are used to travelling light and using a ground tent then a LR90 or swb cruiser might suit you fine and have alot of offroad ability too

I understand cars & bikes are very much a personal choice. I've seen all manner of vehicles in some very rough and extremely remote country, most all were having a ball.

IMHO the 61 series Toyota Landcruiser with the 12HT Turbo Diesel engine has one if not the best 6 cylinder turbo diesel engine ever built. It is not uncommon to hear these motors doing a million kilometers. Google 12HT and see for yourself. Ok it may well not be the easiest beastie to find however well worth the effort.

The Toyota 80 series turbo diesel is also a well proven vehicle and well worth the effort of finding a good one. I might add at this point, a popular modification over here is free wheeling hubs, constant 4WD chews tyres and adds to fuel consumption. Again IMHO well worth the effort.

In my experience nothing goes off-road like a hire car

Just make sure the insurance is fully comp and you're good to go. We once dropped off a Volvo Estate to Hertz that had been tumbled. One of the doors and the bonnet were in the back and the driver had to recline the seat right back to see out of the non existent windscreen.

Happy Days !!

Anyway, to the point of the post

It is as others have said, very subjective; picking your way over rough stuff in tight terrain you'd struggle to beat a little Suzuki Jimny with some decent tyres but hooning along on piste all day I'd want something big, comfy and stable like TLC.

.
For Africa there is only one choice, and that is Land Cruiser.

Now, the harder question, is "WHICH" Land Cruiser.

With around 6 quite capable Land cruiser models, you should decide just how much hard core off road, and how much tarmac you plan on taking in.

vette

Perhaps have a look at the Hilux D4D 2.5 diesel pickup. The newer 3L is even better but more money
All the real power, load carrying and off road capability you'll ever need.
LC's are nice but way to expensive, thirsty,heavy, complicated etc.
The Hilux- let's face it- thousands upon thousands of freedom fighters worldwide can't all be wrong!!!:rofl: :innocent:

Most off-road capable:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...D11_View_3.jpg

Marginally more practical for overlanding:

http://www.elec-intro.com/EX/05-14-21/JohnDeere.jpg

The larger the vehicle the harder to repair should the unthinkable happen. In Central Asia I quickly dropped using Land Cruisers, for work, in favour of Lada Nivas. ;)

Bridges were few and far between and tracks were steep and muddy. We didnt generally try to deal with deep ruts, or particularly deep river crossing, or with any ridiculous boulder strewn streams. So a lighter more nimble vehicle was useful, what bridges there were, were in various states of repair. I.e. your front wheel might drop through the bridge, that's a big job to recover in a Land Cruiser, in a Niva it's a one man fix, at a push.

Ok, never mind the D-11.

IMHO The D4D is totally unsuitable for expedition work. It is not the model of hilux used by freedom fighters worldwide. They use the more basic model.

I drive a 2012 Hilux 3.0. I would never take it on an expedition. I have an HJ60 landcruiser for that.

The hilux is too complex, has too much electronics, requires low sulphur diesel, isn't tough enough (they aren't built anywhere near as well as they used to be) etc etc

I would say, 80 or 70 series landcruiser for the win

First pass I read that as "Marginally more practical for overtaking"...........I guess it is though:clap:

Thats what the people often wrote. I dont believe that it is true.

I took the newst available Land Cruiser and drove through africa without problems.

And we meet modern Land Cruisers all over in africa. Not many, but they are there. A Land Cruiser is still a Land Cruiser....

Surfy

its all about driver when taking 4wd in cnsideratin, just use one as simple as possible ,like defenders and fj40 etc

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2

Hi there! My first post here on HUBB

I'm going to need more info about just what kind of terrain (you said big rocks?) and distances between legs before I can make an educated suggestion. If I had the liberty to choose, I would bring an older diesel Land Cruiser with a manual transmission. They are tough, comfy enough to sleep in, the technology is pleasantly old fashioned, most competent repair shops can repair minor breakdowns, if ever any, and the older ones are lighter than the newer ones. The newer 80-series onward TLCs are still VERY capable, very comfy, but unfortunately, getting more and more obese with each newer iteration. Mileage isn't too great either. I made a test run driving from Jakarta to Bangkok, ~8000 Kms round trip, on a turbodiesel 80 series TLC, and managed only 9 Km/L on smooth roads, travelling very very light (myself and co-driver, two medium duffel bags + 2 day packs, all daily needs bought on the road as needed).

If I had to do the exact same trip again, I would pick my 2.4L diesel powered jeep CJ-7. Its got much much better mileage (~15-17 Km/L), Isuzu C240 engine is used world over for generators, pumps, fishing boats, and forklifts, equally capable off road, still large enough to carry all our needs, has a cold A/C, and leaves a big room for a second vehicle in a 40-foot container. The only drawback is that the jeep is SLOW, as in cruising speed of 75 Km/h on highways. But I can live with that.

If you plan on driving OVER (not around) big rocks, away from familiar territory, I think it's a bad idea. But if you really have to, then I would suggest at least a 2.5" lift (measure the top of the car, make sure it doesn't go over 2.3m. That's how high the inside of a shipping container is), larger tires suitable for the need, skid plates, roll cage, and a rear ARB diff locker. Use all terrain tires whenever you can because they last longer on long drives than mud tires, and they get you a better mileage.

Whatever the car you choose, make sure you spend time to test and familiarize yourself with the car. Then modify it to suit your needs, then test it again before you go. The idea is to keep you from pushing into situations where your car can't handle anymore resulting in a breakdown, hundreds of Kms from a mechanic. If the car does break, with luck, you will only break simple things like driveshaft U-joints, which can be replaced yourself on site. Learn how to do simple repairs and carry appropriate tools.

Oh, and good luck

OP - ask yourself this
What is the most capable off road motorcycle?

How many answers would you expect from this ... ?

--------------------
You'll need to say what you intend doing with it, where, and how much money... for a start.

If you only want local type trips then ask the local 4WDs ...

I must be mistaken then, because I could have sworn my 2012 Hilux has electric windows, skid control, abs, electronic traction control electronic fuel metering, electronic fuel injection, electronic throttle. In fact electronic everything. It also has dire warnings in the manual about running on anything except low sulphur diesel.

My 1989 LC on the other hand would still run if you just pee'd in the tank, as long as you had drunk enough, appears to have virtually no electronics (except lights and stuff) except the electric windows, which failed in Africa and have now been replace with good old winders!

I can also assure you that the 'hewn from granite' feeling of the LC is not replicated in the Hilux. They are no longer built in japan from parts from the Hino truck division, Now they are more like cars and since construction moved elswhere in the world it is generally accepted that quality has dropped.

However, at the end of the day, the Hilux is still a Toyota and probably pretty reliable, but, the point is, if it does breakdown (which hapilly yours didn't, but if it did) and your out in the boonies your stuffed. No bush mechanic will know what to do with it and unless you are a skilled vehicle technician (and maybe even if you are) your chances of a DIY bodge are pretty minimal.

comparisson with Africa spec Toyotas is pointless. One of the reasons for Toyotas success is they vary the vehicle to the market. Unencumbered by ever more draconina emissions regs African spec vehiclas are a much simpler beast than european Spec ones.

The 80 series LC is probably the newest Toyota I would consider taking on a serious expedition, and even that has a few too many gadgets for my liking!!

I just want to point to a simple "probability calculation".

Depending on your driving style is the percentage that you will get a mechanical issue low or high.

That your car electric will let you got stuck in the middle of nowhere - yes that can happen.

To a much higer percentage you may end as hostage, got killed during a attack, or die in an accident during your trip.

If you want to add the risk of an electroic failure to your overall calculation - that is up to you...

Surfy

I think you are missing the point with this reply and the next one doh

People advise against too much electronics because thats the common sense approach. For an overland vehicle you want something simple reliable and easy to fix as Moggy advised the OP.

Fine you may have made a transafrica trip in a modern LC without problems but if one of the electronics system had failed you would have found it very hard to get repaired most countries.

oop, reality check needed:hammer:

vehicle breakdown, err yep, had a few of those. check
vehicle breakdown on vehicle less than 10 years old err yep check
vehicle breakdown in older vehicle on expedition that I fixed myself er yep check
vehicle breakdown on modern vehicle on normal roads without the additional duress of driving in an arduous environment that I couldn't fix myself and needed breakdown recovery, err yep check
taken hostage, err, nope
died in an accident err nope
killed in an attack, err nope

get a grip man!!

Budget no limit then a LC is a very capable vehicle.

Especially when you consider that you can still buy the old 70 model brand new in Ghana.

But i would also consider what the Army use.

Their vehicles need to be tough, reliable and able to get where they need to go.

We never once got stuck when in Ghana whilst traversing some iffy road surfaces.

Vehicles we travelled in ranged from a BMW X5 4.4, Toyota Hi Lux double cab, Ssanyong Rexton, Toyota Camry, Kia Pride Estate, Hyundai Accent hatchback and a Suzuki Vitara (XL7 i think)

We only got "beached" once, though under-carriage scraping was fairly regular in the Camry.

There are also a greater number of Freelanders in that part of Africa than i expected, going by the dealer stickers etc still evident in the windows an awful lot of them are UK rhd ones that have been converted to lhd.

I will admit having a soft soft for any LR product with a version of the Rover V8 in it. Must be a throwback to when i drove the V8 Ambulances in London.

The army use landrovers for purely political reasons. They very nearly didn't get the WMK (Wolf) contract because of the appalling reliability and service support of the previous 90 and 110 models. Only political intervention secured the contract. You may notice that very few armies from other countries use landrovers.

The British Army is also I believe moving away from landrover when the wolf fleet is replaced.

Toyota, on the other hand, is the vehicle of choice of NGOs, insurgents Guerrillas and rag tag armies the world over. People who bear allegiance to no manufacturer, but just want a solid and reliable truck.

The only other mainstream 4x4 that comes close IMHO is the G wagon. I have never owned or driven one but they have a good spec on paper, legendary reliability, are driven by many armed forces and is Tom Shepherds vehicle of choice.

vehicle
 

if your overlanding in the Americas and using your rig as a daily driver
when home ,I would go with a Tacoma, or tundra
if your talking Africa a troopie would be the ultimate for me followed by the
70 series lastly a older hi-lux.
check out the builds on the expedition portal
good luck
kp

Just how I work out the risk of travel.

A vehicle break down is just one of the many risks, I would say a car crash travelling the 1000 odd miles it takes me to get anywhere interesting, is my highest risk of coming to harm.

The main question I ask myself (I take my children)

Are we going to die if we break down and the answer is highly unlikely for the places I travel around, someone will come along, so the risk is purely financial, so I just work out the likely cost of recovery.

I'm not sure where people are travelling where the risks of a breakdown warrants getting all hot and bothered about a few modern electronic's?

Nice to hear from someone who has taken a modern Toyota on an extended trip Surfy bier

Another observation , its not so much the reliability of electronics, as opposed to the diminished reliability of an older style vehicle, just the level of sophisticated tools needed to diagnose or rectify in less technically advanced areas. The risk following breakdown can be counteracted eg satphone /money. Another factor is fuel quality required by recent emission level driven vehicle specs , some of which can be counteracted prior to trip eg unimog needing software modification for 3rd world travel .
As to where people travel with concern about electronics , I have travelled in outback australia with vehicles at both ends of the spectrum , but as mentioned earlier the hot and bothered bit can be avoided by taking steps to deal with eventualities if the need should arise, where it can be a concern is if the travel is being done with limited resources self reliance is a lot cheaper , and therefore less of a worry . JMHO

Interesting point of view Moggy.

I didn't actually mention the British Army but did mention that i had a soft spot for LR products.

Funnily enough when LAS went from LDV Convoy V8 ambulances to the Sprinters there was actually an increase in breakdowns.

The LDV's were considered unreliable by some. Until the Sprinters costing twice as much showed that most breakdowns were caused by 24/7 usage in dense traffic.

The simple LDV could be fixed with a hammer and gaffer tape the Sprinters could not.

The retired LDV's are now in Cuba and Mongolia still being used.

The ones in Cuba have been there for over 10 yrs now and were over 10 yrs old when they were donated.

My point about considering what the Army use is that they need vehicles that are simple to fix without the need for a workshop and diagnostic equipment.

What CLASS of 4WD is most off road capable (water crossings / big rocks / steep inclines)?
Water crossings, heavier vehicles don't get pushed around as much and have better clearance; big rocks need full floating axles with four coil springs for comfort and a lift kit will save your sills(a little), power is always welcome on climbs so petrol has the edge, especially in sand, but modern turbo diesels do a good job and can handle a range of fuel conditions, handy if you're in tiger country.

Depends which Army you’re talking about. Using this can be a bit of a red herring IMHO, I wouldn’t agree in the context of the 1st world that they need to fix them easily without a workshop. Reality is they don’t want them to break in the first place. If they do they’re either abandoned or dragged back to a pretty well resourced workshop. I too have soft spot for LR but as Moggy says the only reason the British use them is political.

As I own one I also have a soft spot (OK Biased opinion!) for G Wagens. Most, including the UK, 1st world Armed forces use them. The oily bits don’t tend to break, sit one next to just about anything else and the sheer size of the drive train components and chassis will convince you, but they did go through an iffy period around 2002 to maybe 2010 due to, yep you guessed it electronics.

I completely agree with the comments about the real risks but of course as it’s a Merc. If anything electronic does fail you’re going to need deep pockets and it will put a bit of a dampener on your day. Up side is no matter where you are you will probably be able to get what you need.

Tom Shepherd did use one extensively and I think he still has it. He did, however, suffer with an intermittent engine management problem that took forever to track down. Just that would wind me in to orbit and put me off going much further than Tesco’s car park.

I presumed the British army just because very few others use them, which rather proves the point! The wolf is of course also a very different beast to those available to civvies, which is why Ranulph Feinnes specified wolf spec vehicles for his round the world trek.

The British Army don't mend their own vehicles anymore. Wolfs were under contract from landrover, Army mechanics weren't allowed anywhere near them.

The new sprinters are not good. Mercedes quality seems to have really taken a dive over the last decade. My mate worked for merc man and boy, from apprentice to workshop manager. He now runs his own garage and advised me not to by a merc van when my van needed replacing!


BTW, I am also a landie fan, I have owned series, defenders and even a 101, but their reliability and build quality means that now I own Toyotas. I would love another landie, but at the moment I need more than they can deliver.

I had hoped when Ford took over we would see a change in the policy of how landrovers are built. A nice big Iveco engine and development it so desperately needs from a Bona Fide commercial vehicle builder, but it didn't happen. Now it's in the hands of another manufacturer also with good commercial credentials, but the picture seems unchanged.

It breaks my heart TBH the way landrover have gone, and soon we will see nothing but SUVs built for taking the kids to school from them.

IMHO what they should be doing is developing a truck like the Hilux, with a 3ltr engine and decently made but it seems most manufacturers are bowing to price pressure and dumbing down the quality of their products. Commercial quality doesn't seem to exist anymore. Navara, Amarok etc all have significant reliability and build quality issues.

Couldn't agree more, moggy, I have a soft spot for Landies, the view and ride are the best but an episode of drowning the electronics(under the seat, what were they thinking?) and the corrugated dirt roads I live on stretched the friendship. Still, I have a plan someday, when the bike gets a bit much, to buy a late model Range Rover in Britain and with a few minor tweaks, drive it home to Aus.

if you knew the electronics were under the seat , why didnt you do something to protect them , I did with my 3.9i 110 , and had no probs in floods or creeks in Oz ? What was the corrugations problem , as i found the defender to be about the best 4x4 on the bush roads ? I do agree with you tho LR seem to be losing the plot with being able to build a LR in the fashion that got the original reputation . They seem more interested on putting electric windows on defenders than putting the ecu in a sensible place !

It was a neighbors, a Discovery, the Defender was too expensive, he had it for two years and I rescued him twice when the creeks were up. No Government dept. use Landrover in Aus. the build is not as tough as Toyota, Nissan or Mercedes(the Army's choice), the difference is not that great but there is a margin when pushed hard. All said, it's only my opinion and I'm still a fan of the old marque.

In 2011 (last time I saw them up close) The French Gendarmerie had a few Defenders running about in the Alps.

The Italian Army and Carabinieri also have Defenders, or they did have back in 2006 which was the last time I saw them.

But, never mind all this looking back stuff; what are LR current plans for the replacement for the Defender?

like I said, very few!

I don't think there is anything in the pipeline to replace the defender. They aren't bidding on the contract to replace the WMK and as far as I can ascertain they are more interested in chasing a passing (albeit long time passing!) fashion fad for SUVs then investing in long term commercial markets.

On the subject of electronics, I was covering a country show one time and we were next to the landrover stand. The technician there let on they had been unable to start one of the rangies that morning. Even with all their technical kit and knowhow it had taken a couple of hours to find out the problem was caused by water in a headlight making the ECU shutdown.

Landrover and electronics. 2 words that should never appear in the same sentence together!

Just to clarify my comments.
Mine is the last of the old school G Wagens, the only electronics being the ABS, so not a show stopper unless you're trying to get it through the MOT.:eek3:

I think Merc in general have moved on from the negative Chrysler influence now. Off topic I know but I still really dislike their car range.

I have a buddy in Tennessee who went to school to be a LR mechanic. He fell in love with the mystique of them while working with me in Africa. After working at the dealer for a year or so he told me that they advise new owners of LR's to plan on spending about $5000/year on repairs and maintenance for their new vehicle. After all the work he did on his own LR and on other people's, he recommended all his friends in Africa to avoid LR's and buy Toyota's if possible. I used to love them, but got tired of working on them. I find that though the Defender series are capable off-road, they break down too often. I've been left stranded one too many times in a LR. I now own 3 Toyota's. My 95' UK spec turbo diesel Landcruiser is my favorite of them. It's been driven all throughout Angola, Zambia, Namibia, Bots and South Africa on nasty roads, through hectic river crossings and hasn't let me down once.

OP, I've seen a lot of guys travel overland in Africa in all sorts of vehicles. What continent do you see yourself traveling across? The most common vehicles in terms of parts availability on the African continent are Toyota's and Land Rovers hands down. Stay clear of Merc's unless you're going with the big trucks. My buddy has a twin turbo G-wagen in Angola and after 5 years he's trying to unload it because of how quickly it chews up parts. If you're looking to do anything in North or South America, you'd do well with a Ford, Jeep SUV, Chevy or Toyota. My experiences in Brazil and Argentina showed plenty of parts availability for these manufacturers. I don't know much about Asia, but I'm guessing if you go with a Toyota or LR, you'll have parts availability more so than an American make.

Good luck on whatever you choose! May your feet always find solid ground beneath you.