1200gsa vs 800gs?
 

guys,

planning for a trip starting from london to stans/pamir/kkh/SEA this summer, seeking some opinion between this two machine to ride thru this part of the world.
i am 5'9" and i just sold my old 1995 r1100gs. quite used to riding boxer engine make me thinking of 1200gsa, but going thru this part of the world the gsa might be to tough for me to handle. tried the 650gs afraid i will not enjoy much on europe leg as going thru nice tarmac with less powerfull engine of the 650.
anyone?

thanx

I have a GSA and love it, but think that you would be nuts to take one on to the pamirs. I also think that the 800 is too big.

Frankly, I don't see why you would need anything more than a 650. As to the Europe leg, there are plenty of wonderful small roads where anything more than a 650 would be a waste, and if you are planning to ride though Europe via expressways I would rethink that part of your trip and take a smaller bike.

I have a GSA (ridden through China, Russia, Morocco, etc.) and a BMW G650X XChallenge (ridden through Siberia, Road of Bones, etc.) so have actually done both.

Obviously, everyone is different but that is my two cents.

Hello,

I have the same concern... I actually have a 1200GSA 2008, and I'll plan a RTW for septembre 2013.
Most of the parts I will be alone, but my wife joined me for some parts. I'm not sure if I switch with an 800GS or not. Each time I test for a little ride the 800GS, it's seems to be to small for me. My concern is about the weight of the 1200GSA but I know that it's more confortable for 2....

So.... still in reflexion

well, sometimes the GSA is the best bike to take RTW, like if you already have one, and if you will be doing two up. Knowing your bike is super-important, so if you know the GSA well I'd stick with it.

Also really depends on where you're going...since you're starting in September, I guess you'll be in the southern hemisphere/tropics for at least part of the trip?

May I be a little mean?
 

Does it imperatively have to be one of the 2/3 BMWs? Any chance to go for another bike maker... even a Japanese one???!!!

I'd say next subsequent/coherent question should be "I hesitate between Rally 2 and Santiago BMW jackets".:rolleyes: (couldn't stop that thought!)

I don't mean they are bad, I just say the array of options is more limited.:innocent:

Anyway, on any bike you choose, enjoy the trip!

Esteban

EDIT: Uppps, didn't notice it's in BMW Tech section, not in Which Bike, so my questions are already answered... :stormy:

I have an F800GS and love the bike, but I would agree that it's overkill in a lot of ways and I'm a big dude. Only time I really need the "800" power is on the super slab. For all the other riding a guy would do on an extended trip a 650 is more than enough power. Hell as we all know guys are doing it on 90cc's!!

I am with Motoreiter on this one ...

The 800 is only about 10 kgs lighter than the 1200 GS ... they are both too heavy for the route you are riding. A 650cc bike like a KTM 690 or a BMW X-Challenge is 40 -50 - 60 kgs lighter than those bikes, or 80 kgs lighter than a 1200 Adventure. Both 650s allow you to cruise at 80 mph across Europe, and you wont be advised to go any faster than that once you are out of Europe.

What are you getting for the 50-80 kgs of extra weight??

The ability to overtake at 100mph for the first 3 days while you are in Europe.

The rest of the time the additional power is useless, and the rest of the time the additional weight is with you 100% of the time - on every gravelly corner, every mud patch, every water crossing - and every time you pick up the bike.

You have to look at advantages vs disadvantages ... the advantages of a bigger bike are tiny ... the disadvantages are huge. You are worried about not enjoying Europe on a 650 ... is that better than hating Tajikistan on a 1200? Is the highlight of the trip meant to be Europe, or Takjikistan / Pamir / KKH ?

I have been doing this for 20 years on bikes from 400s to 1200s, and personally I dont think there is a better all round type of bike for a solo traveller expecting to do mountainous or dirt road adventure touring than a fuel injected 600-650 single. Like Motoreiter, I have owned a 1200 GSA ... yes great bike for Europe. But Europe is not the focus of my travels - its just a place to drive through to get to the bits I really want to see.

Sure you can ride the Pamir on a 1200 Adventure, and so can I ... but the question is why bother carrying 80 extra kgs of metal around when it isnt delivering you any benefits? and only making life more difficult? Riding more difficult roads becomes a chore and a struggle instead of fun. You saw Ewan and Charley in Mongolia and on the Road of Bones? It was hell for them. Ewan was crying in Mongolia and Charlie pulled his back out after picking his bike up so many times in Siberia - because they had the wrong bikes for the job ... 80 - 100 kgs too heavy! They were the only significant dirt sections the guys had to ride on the whole project and they couldnt finish either of them because their bikes were too heavy. What use was the 30 extra hp they had over a 650 when they were in Mongolia? Consider the price for that useless extra 30 hp was 80 kgs of excess weight. That weight sure made a difference in Mongolia. The 30 extra hp didnt.

The exact same roads on a well set up 650 are a breeze. a 50-60 mph breeze. I know because I have ridden the exact same roads in Mongolia and The Road of Bones. I can compare. In fact I did the Road of Bones with a girl who had never ridden off road before ... but she was riding a KTM 690 and on that bike she (with zero off road experience) could do what Ewan and Charley could not do on exactly the same road on 1150s. (Actually its harder now as the road has deteriorated a lot since 2004 when they tried it)

I have ridden 1200 Adventures off road (Morocco) and have ridden much harder pistes in Morocco on a 650. Apart from having a huge smile on my face while riding a 650 off road all the time and a look of stress and concern when riding the 1200, the other main differences is you go 3 times faster on the 650 and have about 10 times more fun.

At the end of the day its your call ... but I am just throwing ideas, perspectives and experience at you that are worth considering.

PS ... on the downside most 650s like the X-Challenge or the KTM 690 are quite tall bikes. If you are 5'9" that would need to be addressed. But Sherri Jo, the girl I rode the old Road of Bones with mentioned above, is also 5'9" and had her 690 lowered easily enough.

I always get scared of commenting on BMW threads but here goes...

I have to agree with Coldbach. You don't have to take a massive overweight BMW, as wonderful as they are...

You want a light and simple bike. A 600-650 single is perfect for nearly anywhere in the world.

The golden rule for all travel is to keep it simple, keep it light, keep it cheap...

Nothing wrong with a F650GS in Europe. I have been riding around Europe on a F650GS (the old single, not he 800cc) and although a bigger bike would be nicer on the freeways, it did a good job.


Here are a few of my trip F650GS reports:
To the North Cape: http://jkrijt.home.xs4all.nl/trips/n2g/index.shtml
To Millau: http://jkrijt.home.xs4all.nl/trips/m...08/index.shtml
To Neuschwanstein: http://jkrijt.home.xs4all.nl/trips/ns2011/index.shtml

By the way, the new BMW single is called the G650GS.

"Nothing wrong with a F650GS in Europe. I have been riding around Europe on a F650GS" - me too, and great truths never go away!

FWIW, the single cylinder BMW is not so good two up but it has been done - depends on lots of factors such as your own weight, luggage, your pillions' weight etc.
According to BMW blurb, the G650GS has been made to meet demand for a single cyl, and I can believe that if you look at the prices for new Japanese bikes.

That's actually a very good price.... I think it's cheaper than the Tenere. £5295 on the road.

Even the extras aren't THAT ridiculous.

http://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/motorc...fications.html

The fuel consumption figures are very impressive indeed, runs on 91 and has a 14L tank.

Fuel consumption per 100 km at constant 90 km/h 3.2 litres
Fuel consumption per 100 km at constant 120 km/h 4.3 litres
Fuel type Unleaded regular, minimum octane rating 91 (RON)

That's about a 300-350 KM range which is enough for almost anywhere in the world.

Jeeez, I could actually be tempted.

Yes, that is pretty good. I was just thinking, after reading some of the prices of 'adventure bikes' recently (Triumph Tiger, BMW GSA, etc), that bikes were horrendous prices these days. They used to be working man's transport. My XT was £4000 in 2003 brand new (to its first owner). I'm not sure that 2012 price is a great deal more than BMW were charging when I was looking around in 2005!

I know the OP said they weren't sure about it for Euro roads, but it's the roads further east I'd be thinking about. Euro roads are fine on anything (even an XT! :) ), I'd get the bike best for the bad stuff.

I'd definately go for that over the GSA, apart from anything it would give you an extra £5000 to spend on the road! :)

:)

Correct.
My brand new F650GS, first registered in March 2005, cost around £5500 including heated hand grips - the last time I looked at BMW accessories those heated grips are still £230, factory fitted (the wiring runs through the handlebars, so best fitted in the factory!!).

Id have to see how it was put together first...

If it's the usual 400 brittle plastic screws with TORX heads just to change a light bulb then I might have to keep walking. Why ??? Just why ???

I hear it's the exact same engine from the old F650 too ? That means the inevitable water pump failures and dodgy electrics.

Can anyone enlighten the situation on that ??

BMW claim to have improved the electrics since the last bike.

I believe the waterpump is the same but Colebatch does not seem to have had much trouble with it...

Really ?? His must be the only one :cool4:

Maybe he swaps his bushes before they fail....

No waterpump problems at all ... once in 110,000 kms I changed the pump seals. Its not a difficult job and easily done from the outside of the engine.

Ted - if you get a BMW, will we be seeing you in Rallye jacket and pants? ;)

You must be blessed by the motorcycle gods !!! Good for you though. Yeah, it's not a hard job but it should be an unnecessary one.

I almost bought a BMW one a few weeks back. I really did. Then I slapped myself across the face and said five hail Mary's. A lucky escape :)

Ended up with a Triumph Tiger 955 instead..

If it had to be, please not the yellowish-black new one! I'm not a "aesthete" but that is way toooo ugly (if you have to pay it; for free i'd grab it right now)!!!:blushing:

Another overlooked and not usally mentioned is dealing with a big bike in navigating crowded towns and cities. Also secure parking in sketchy areas. A GSA would be hell pushing around hotel courtyards.rooms and lobbies to secure for the night.

bobsp, the OP, must be a little bit in despair - no BMW thread can stay on topic for long!
Accepting that this thread has become one about 1200 (boxer) Vs 800 (twin) Vs 650 (single) then it seems that there have been some teething issues with the newish G650GS. From reading elsewhere, these relate to the starter circuit, especially when the engine has warmed up. No doubt the 2 year BMW warranty will sort out those bikes that are affected.

In the meantime, the basic G650GS model is priced in the UK at around £5300 and the Sertao is a good deal more at about £6700 - give or take, but we all know that you will never get a discount from a dealer on a new BMW - according to them they can sell every one they can get from BMW, but you have to think that there is an element of retail price maintenance (RPM) in all of this, especially in the current economic climate.

Never mind, they are good value when pre-owned!!

Poking around in a UJM dealership the other day, discounts on all 4 major Jap manufacturers new products are readily available; you just have to haggle.

As a F650GS owner, I agree with the gist of Colebatch's posts; for instance, the water pump is a well known weakish issue (and as he says, easily fixed - after all it is a seal and they all need replacing eventually; therefore this amounts to routine maintenance).

Apologies to bobsp for going :offtopic:
if you look back through the last year or so of threads in both "BMW tech" and "which bike" there are some considered views, and good information, about the bikes you are considering; it's just unfortunate that it is all over the place and totally unconnected.

A mate of mine has bought a sertao for another trip in to Central / southern Africa ( he took a tenere the last time) He loves the little BMW - but has had problems with starting, (eletrical gremlins), Decompression valve wrongly shimmed from new in factory, decompression valve spring faulty, and a few other minor niggles including the service from BMW. These bikes are built in China not Germany - I assume the quality control should be good but such errors on a new built and delivered bike maybe put a question to that. The bike has spent quite a bit of time off the road ( by that I mean not working correctly) - that is not good for an new £7000 bike designed for travel. I am not sure but wonder if it also has the can bus electrics rather than a traditional wiring harness - can bus is something personally i would want to avoid.

Very well said.....


This is my major gripe with BMW... Faults like that are simply UNACCEPTABLE in this day and age for a MAJOR manufacturer.

BMW lovers just seem to live with this and get on with it. There must be some strange chemical built into the handgrips that chemically alters their brain to keep forking out ££££££££££££££££ and $$$$$$$$$$$ on something which should be reliable from day one to day infinite.

You just don't get that with the Japanese bikes... Which at times are actually significantly cheaper.

I think BMWs attitude towards their clients of late absolutely stinks.

BMW, whilst successful, used to be a bit off the mainstream and didn't sell the volume of bikes that Jap and even some Italian makes did but after the launch of the 'adventure' (wanabee Ewan and Charley) market and their sucess with the 1200GS across Europe and elsewhere they seem to spend more money maintaining their image than they do on quality control.

There are widely reported significant issues with both the 1200 and 800/650GS yet they still run full page 'renowned for their reliability' ads in all the magazines - still, I suppose it's the customers who are the mugs!

Clearly everyone's experiences are different, but I think mine are more positive! The only think wrong with my 800 has been the gear display on the 'computer'. Originally, the dealer thought this was the potentiometer, which they changed under warranty, but it was still an issue - 5th gear would display then go away, then flick between 5th and 6th! After a little head scratching, they reset the computer and all works fine. I've moved gear-lever positions and since bought a folding lever, and they've reset it every time for free to avoid further ussues. In fact, every time I've been in to ask for advice / help / support, they've always been willing to spend time discussing it, even when my questions have, at times, been rather simplistic! I rarey get charged for minor issues; they've even refused to take money off me when I've offered it! Balderstones in Peterborough are excellent, and I've had nothing but great service from them.

No, I'm not on retainer!

I do agree that these, and more serious issues, should not occur in the first place, though.

As to the original post, it's well documented on here (and others) that smaller bikes can often = more fun / easier riding life / etc, so it makes sense to go for the smallest bike with which you're comfortable. If it's a choice between the 1200 and 800 only, then go for the 800. Test ride first, obviously. I love mine.

I have considered a smaller cc bike for the future, though . . . . . :innocent:

The one post provides the answer to the other; it's all in the heart :thumbup1:


As for pricing, it may have been the case that the UJM were significantly cheaper than European manufacturers, including BMW, but that is certainly no longer the case.
There are too many examples to bother quoting here but they have come up in a few posts recently.
Ah well, OK just one - the UK list price of the XT660Z is close enough to £7000.

+1 for the Beemer dealerships that I have encountered.
They are a pleasant change from the back street garage and the 17 year old trainee mechanic with an oily rag and a vacant expression on his face; nevertheless, no matter which bike garage it is, I always have a good look at the workshop standards and get to talk with the staff who work in there - those at the front of the house are less important in this assessment.
I've walked away from businesses that don't want me to enter their workshop area.

:offtopic:again!!

The difference is, the list price of the BMW is probably what you're going to pay. The list price of the Yamaha is irrelevant. Two minutes on eBay/Autotrader finds you brand new bikes under £6500.

Socially acceptable.
 

In some social strata, riding a BMW adventure bike is acceptable. However, riding an old TTR is not.

In some cases, people do not really have other choice (you've got only 1 bike to commute -wearing costume and tie-), in other cases people just choose to narrow the equation bike=bmw (Ewan&Charly wanabee) and in others they are not enough self-confident not to mind what others think (load her with Touratech and load you with BMW gear and you still may be an eccentric adventurer posh guy).

Right after on the hierarchy, you've got Italian & American bikes, then Japanese, later Korean and finally Indian/Chinese.

Just how I see it and any of the reasons to go for a BMW is acceptable for me, as well as I understand you may not be willing to ride a Kymko bike, for whatever reason. But if your BMW is unreliable, please, be honest and share that info, do not be an "BM integrist", since others (who may not be restricted to that only brand) may be falsely induced to buy one unreliable bike based on your faked opinions.

Esteban

PS: I strongly considered buying a 650 Dakar in the past, being the contenders the Transalp and XT 600 (which I finally got), so nothing wrong with BMW. And find the X-Country and X-Challenge amazing bikes, as well as the old BMs. But cannot undestand narrowing a choice between 1200, 800 and 650, but only as long as it is (and has to be) a BMW. To me, it just feels like fitting your 7 members family in a Mercedes class-A before than getting a massive Ssanyong Rodius.
[edit: because you are ashamed of driving a Korean car and worry about what others think, same for motorcycles]

Well I don't totally agree with you guys. I rod the pamir highway with an GMW R100GS, which is as heavy as the 1200gs without any problems. It's dirt road, but no technical parts. And I suppose the 1200GSis way better than my old R100Gs.

Then, I rod Mongolia 2 up on the R100GS, and I met a couple on a GSA, they crossed mongolia from east to west, without problems.

It all comes down to your riding skills as well, and If I could have afford it, I would have go for a new GSA, but the bike alone was more than my total budget for my 6 month trip...:(

I believe that everything is possible, with some bike it's gonna be easier and with some other harder.

I met some people that did the mistake of take a proper enduro bike for a trip like mine, and if you really count, on my 34'000km journey... I had maximum 15-20% of dirt roads... So if you have a comfortable bike it's a big plus.

Been there and done that. If the OP believes the badge in any way relates to reliability or the ability to do the job I hope he finds out it isn't by reading here rather than the hard way. You pick the bike that fits you best and learn to live with the bits that don't work well. It doesn't matter if it's a Harley, an F800 or an Enfield the rider is key not advertising slogans, press pictures and what old riders thought about bikes they could never buy.

The G650 was 2nd place in my recent search for the Bonneville replacement, ticked all the boxes for me. The dealer, although less snotty and obvously useless than Triumph one lost it though. Suzuki really wanted to play so I got a Wee-strom. It seems to do everything quite well.

Andy

Bonneville
 

Andy,
Why would you want to replace the Bonny:thumbup1: ?

Paul (who rides a BMW as well ) LOL