BMW-F800GS -adventure
 

The new BMW F800GS Adventure is to be presented internationally on june 15. 2013.

Any thoughts about this one?

BMW F800GS Adventure- First Look Review- Photos- Specs

Its kinda overdue.

Its kinda heavy for what it is (over 200 kgs DRY weight and 219 kgs with fuel)

There's not a lot to add to existing opinions of the F800GS apart from the fact that there is 8 more litres of fuel built in.

But its going to be a decent and solid, but not brilliant, off the factory floor go around the world on asphalt and occasional gravel roads bike. It will still not have rims and suspension capable of real off road riding, but none of the other heavyweight adventure bikes (except for maybe the KTM 990) do either. Here is a pic of an F800 wheel after a week off road in Siberia with my group last year. Those of us with good off-road suitable rims had no issues, no dents, no dings, no warping, just rims that stayed completely in shape, while the original BMW F800 rim was utterly destroyed in a week.

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps0a46b412.jpg

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...84689152_n.jpg

The F800 Adventures competition among the heavyweight adventure bikes (and now that its over 200 kgs dry - its a genuine heavyweight) - is going to be the approx same weight KTM 990 Adventure R.

I reckon it would be a similar standard road touring bike when compared to the KTM and a lot worse off road than the KTM.

Always good to have more adventure bikes on the market ... and its good to see BMW (of all manufacturers) so publicly recognising that 1200cc is not a prerequisite for an adventure bike.

Great to see an Adventure in the 800. Hope we don't have to wait so long for the water-cooled 1200GSA

10 years on
 

It feels like 10 years ago since BMW announced that they would introduce at least 2 new models of bikes each and every year for the foreseeable future.
At that time they were selling such bikes as the F650CS. It was quite hard to see how this would be achieved, but they have done it via updating the 1200GS every two years, building scooters and similar manufacturing and marketing.

IIRC, there was a time when they said that the "adventure" moniker would be applied to the 1200 boxer alone; so some things do change. It can't be long before the new 1200 engine comes along in the adv model - maybe next year? ( in accord with the 2 per year "rule").

its an odd time of the year to announce this bike. BMW normally likes to hit the market in October - December to give buyers the time to think about, then buy a bike when it hits the shops in spring, ready for the summer.

I assume the new 1200 GSA will stick to that schedule ... so maybe announce it October next year, and have it in dealers in March 2015? Would be my guess.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this bike.

Well - the dry weight is 204 kgs and then add 24 litres of fuel makes it 228 kgs or so. But its still very much lighter than the 1200/1200 adventure for example.

And youre not totally right when you write that there isnt a whole lot more to it than 8 litres more of fuel capacity. BMW writes this about it:

[I]
So, what makes this new version of the BMW F800GS an Adventure? It starts with the tubular steel trellis frame, which is basically stock F800GS hardware but is fitted with a strengthened rear subframe designed to handle the increased loads of off-road riding and the heavier new fuel tank, which, at 6.3 gallons, is 2.1 gallons larger than a standard F800GS’s. What’s more, the F800GS Adventure has new bodywork designed to keep proportions right, even with the large tank, while a larger windscreen, a more comfortable bench seat. [I]


When you compare the rims on the BMW 800 gs with others that you find so much better it could be of interest to know for other readers what bikes and rims are you comparing with? And were these wheels/rims of stock or maybe special replacement rims? If you compare a BMW 800 gs with for example a KTM 690 or a Suzuki DRZ 400 or something similar - its not exactly the same thing.....and thus you cant expect the same either.

Another question that comes to mind is how much off road riding do one want to do - or have to do - if one is riding overland? If you have a bike loaded with - I dont know but maybe 40-50 kgs extra of luggage, side and top cases etc etc - do one really want to go hardcore offroad riding? One sure want a bike that is capable on dirt and gravel roads - but offroad and enduro riding would probably be very much better with a smaller bike with no or very little luggage and also better equipped when it comes to tyres, rims, etc. In other words - a completely different thing.

Fuel is not water. Petrol is 0.7 kgs per litre ... 24 litres of fuel = 17 kgs

Yes this basically BMW saying what I said ... that apart from the extra 8 litres of fuel its much the same bike. It has new plastic panels (bodywork) - well it has to since it has different fuel tanks - and it has the same frame ... It does mention that it has a strengthened subframe, but to be honest I never heard of a problem with the stock F800 subframe so it hardly a noteable improvement ... certainly not one worth commenting on. In any case that comment you posted said the strengthening in the rear subframe is also just necessary because of the larger tank. So the new plastics and the improved subframe are just related to the bigger thank. Sorry but I dont see anything there worth commenting on other than the extra 8 litres of fuel - which it goes without saying is a useful addition. Apart from that its an F800GS ...nothing more.

If you sell an adventure bike that has components that are less than adventure worthy - surely the responsible thing for to do on a forum of adventure bikers, many with limited or no experience and, and many not knowing too much about what are strengths and weaknesses of certain bikes, (which is why they are here trying to get opinions of experienced people) surely the responsible thing for those experienced people to do is to pass on what are the strengths and weaknesses of bikes people ask for opinions about.?

Some of the rims in question were stock rims ... some were aftermarket rims. I dont think thats in any way a relevant question. The question is if someone is thinking of buying a particular bike , surely they also want to know the bikes weakpoints before they go off to remote places with it?

I would certainly hope they do!

The point is BMW could have built the bike with better rims. They didnt. And if you want to do anything more challenging than asphalt and light occasional gravel roads, then be aware that you may be well advised to change the rims.

For the record, the F800 rim was swapped out to a stock steel rim from an unused XTZ660 Tenere in Yakutsk, in Northern Siberia that we happened to stumble across. After that, if gave no further problems. Other stock rims that only took about 25-30% of the damage were stock BMW X-Challenge rims. Other rims that took no damage from the same conditions were an aftermarket Excel A60 rim and a stock Excel signature rim on a stock KTM wheel.


Well surely thats a question for the individual rider?

Your approach seems to be to pick a bike first, then decided its not capable of off road so you wont go there.

What if someone actually did want to go offroad a lot, and still wanted an opinion of a particular heavy adventure bike? Surely thats a possibility.

"How much off road do you have to do?" you ask! Have to do? Well you dont HAVE to do any. You can go from Europe to Cape Town on about 98% asphalt. You can go from Europe to Vladivostok on all asphalt. To can go from Alaska to Ushuaia on 98% asphalt ... ... if your version of adventuring is sticking to the main highways. All of those routes have been ridden by people on 400 kg Honda Goldwings. So I can flip your question round and ask you do you have to have an adventure bike if thats all you want to do? You can do THAT on a sportsbike or a chopper for that matter. Why get an F800GS Adventure?

Off pavement riding is not only something to endure when you travel. For many of us, off road riding is the key to getting to interesting places. Getting away from truck stops, highways, radar police. For many of us you dont go to Mongolia to ENDURE the roads ... some of us actually LOVE the fact that so much of the country is off-road.

Personally I like to go off road almost all the way. So I dont take a heavy 200 kg bike and load it up with 50-60 kgs of luggage. I prefer a 145 kg bike with 25 kg of luggage. And I go away with it for 3-7 months at a time.

But in giving opinions of an adventure bike, surely assessing its off road capabilities is a key part of that process? Not everyone likes asphalt. If you want to ride on road all the time thats fine and you are welcome to read my opinions and say well the rims are a weak point but I am not planning to go off road so that fact doesnt bother me. Some people who read this thread might want to know others opinions of this bike cause they want to take a bike to Mongolia, or Magadan. And if they do want to go there and they have been thinking about this bike, they might want opinions linking the two ?

Dont you think?

I assume many people dont want to ride off road and just "get thru it", but I also know many people new to adventure riding do want to do some and do want a bike that will allow them to develop into that, and those people also want to know what the F800GS is like offroad. The rim in the pics came from a Norwegian guy who was new to riding (and off riding around the world) and simply assumed he needed a heavy adventure bike since thats the only thing that is promoted by manufacturers. By the time he was changing his front rim in Yakutsk he specifically commented that he wished he had this exact kind of advice earlier, before buying his F800GS.

First of all - the bike is 229 kgs With full gas tank. End of discussion.

Secondly - my approach to this and that including this bike is something you dont know anything about. Please keep personal issues out of a discussion.

I appriciate Your thoughts about this bike and I have already thanked you for that.

You dont find the differences between the new adventure model and the "old" model 800 except the bigger fuel tank worth commenting. That kinda tells me where you stand. But of course you have the right to think and say so....

Strengths and weaknesses of bikes people ask for is surely important for experienced riders to comment upon and share thoughts about and I do register what you say about for example the rims of the BMW.
But to compare a lightweihgt bike like for example a KTM 690 - as you do - to a + 200 kg bike doesnt give the complete picture. If one place the same rims on a 150 kg bike and on a + 200 kg bike - sure the rims will take a lot more beating and come apart sooner on a + 200 kg bike.

It sure would be interesting to hear what bike you recommend for overlanding? And it sure could be interesting to hear more thoughts about this bike - also negative ones? Ok the rims arent of high class, any other negative sides with this bike?

The photos above are why I laugh when BMW position the F800GS with its spoked wheels as more offroad-capable than the F650GS with its alloys. I've seen as many total failures on BMW spoked wheels as I've seen on alloys, there's no point in having spoked wheels if the rims are made of chocolate.

I much prefer having a 21-in front wheel but I hate having tubes. What I'd really like to see with the F800GS and F800GS Adventure is tubeless spoked wheels. BMW did it with the HP2 and KTM does a tubeless 21/18 combination on the 1190 R.

I've moaned for a long time about the idiocy of BMW putting the close ratio gearbox from the F800S in an adventure bike; with six gears to choose from the ratios should be wider spread with both a lower first and a higher top.

As I do most of my biking outside the UK ideally the speedo should be digital so that it can be switched between MPH and KPH like most other bikes.

Above all, I don't particularly value the F800GS Adventure because I never found fuel capacity to be a limiting factor. In real world testing I got 271 miles out of the F650GS (pretty much the same bike as the F800GS). If I ever needed more than that I could bungy a plastic bottle to the luggage and tip in fuel after 100 miles or so.

??? There are no personal issues in this discussion. I pointed out a fault with a bike you like and you got offended. Go back to your original post ... You asked for opinions !!!

Well you are welcome to tell me there is more than just a bigger fuel tank that IS REALLY worth commenting on .... but then you kinda have to say what that is and why its notably better ... right?

Well I think most people on here know enough about my bike and its history to prevent me going into in too much detail, since its really a matter of public record ... there are over 20 pages in this book on what I recommended (as of 2010) ...including a 14 page section on my bike, its setup and why.
Building the Ultimate Adventure Motorcycle: The Essential Guide to Preparing a Bike for the Journey of a Lifetime: Amazon.co.uk: Robert Wicks: Books

And then there is a section in here regarding my bike choice and why:
Adventure Motorcycling Handbook: A Route and Planning Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Scott: Books

Well I havent tried any of those, but what is says in the link in the opening post is that the new model has better seat (not all of us want to stand all the time while riding a bike...), better windscreen, better rear frame.
And I dont know is ESA and ASC is options on the excisting model.....

You must have me excused so very much - but I really dont want to order and pay two books to have an idea of Your opinions about this issue....I have hoped for an easier option.....

Anyhow - a very few persons have the ability, the energy, the time, the knowledge and the economical option to build their own bike. Us others must buy a stock bike and - at best replace a few things and add a few others.

And what other negative parts on the new GS800 adventure except the rims did you mention? ;)

ESA and ASC are indeed already options on the standard F800GS. I got around the highly uncomfortable standard seat by using an AirHawk (which I have been transferring from bike to bike), and bought an Eagle windscreen from Australia.

http://www.morocco-knowledgebase.net...a_top_1000.jpg
Admittedly the Eagle screen is nowhere near as cool as the one on the F800GS Adventure.

Better rear frame? The existing model is presumably built to handle a heavy rider and pillion and heavy luggage, so I'm not sure what's needed for a few more kilo of fuel.

Well I dont know if its easier for you (cause it means you might actually have to do some research), but here's a free option. You can read through 2000 posts and 120 something pages in this thread: RTW X-Challenge Adventurization - ADVrider

Its not only about "negative parts". An opinion of a machine is an opinion. It can be negative or positive. You are turning opinions of a paper machine into perceived personal insult. I think you need to remove yourself from a love affair with a machine that you clearly have not even seen yet. A machine is just a tool for a purpose. If the tool doesnt fit, it doesnt fit. If it doesnt meet a particular purpose, then why take it as an insult if some one points that out - after you specifically asked other people for opinions.

You have Tim Cullis here, probably alongside Chris Scott, the english speaking worlds most knowledgeable and experienced guy on Morocco, telling you he thinks the gearbox ratios are all wrong, and that he concurs that the rims are crap. If you are new to this, which I suspect you are, then you could do much worse than to listen to the words of wisdom from people who have been doing it for a long time, on a lot of different bikes, in a lot of different places, rather than just assuming you are an instant expert or that marketing people know what an adventure bike needs.

I have a truck load of experience in Siberia and Mongolia, probably more in Siberia than anyone else on the planet. I have done adventure riding across the developing world on everything from 115 kg bikes to 230 kgs 1200s and almost everything in between. I know what different bikes feel like, ride like and handle like when loaded up for travel and adventure in a huge variety of conditions. I am telling you the rims are crap, the bike is too heavy for what it is. I also said apart from that the bike is going to be solid but never spectacular.

If you dont want to hear it, then dont listen. But do us all a favour and dont ASK for other peoples opinions if you cant handle them.

Its not your first born son ... its a motorcycle ... a motorcycle that you haven't even seen yet. So dont take views of it that you disagree with as a personal insult.

I've heard from several sources that the alloy was changed (2010?), but if it's true it's still might be just a minor upgrade. It has 36 spokes so it's easy and cheap to find another rim.

If I remember correctly the rim on the bike above had covered a pretty long and hard distance before it got trashed. Geir (XChallenge) also changed his front rim after the trip - I don't know why.
Maybe the standard rim is all you need, it depends on your luck and how you use the bike. On the other hand sturdy rims are cheap, I would have changed both rims. Suspension is a bigger issue...


BTW:
The increased range is nice!

The rim in the pics was from a bike bought new in Norway in early 2012 ... I believe. So if it was worse before 2010 then the first couple of years rims must have been terrible.

Yes he did a lot of miles on the rim before Siberia but it was all on asphalt apart from 500 km or so in Tajikistan - which was graded gravel roads.

Geir's X-Challenge rims suffered minor damage. As I mentioned above, they suffered damage, but a fraction of what the F800 rim suffered. Geir has since changed to an Excel rim (a) so that the bike is as good as new and (b) cause he wants to keep riding it and adventuring with it and felt that a quality front rim was a wise investment so that he never has to worry about it again.

At the end of the day, a good Excel rim is about 190 EUR retail! and the top of the range rim money can buy about 250 EUR. I dont want to even guess how low BMW could buy Excel rims at an OEM level, in bulk runs of thousands ... no more than 50 EUR thats for sure - probably 30 EUR. So maybe BMW save 20 EUR by putting crappy rims on the bike.

Walter; I've seen photos of KTM's (950's and 990's) with rims as you showed earlier in the thread.... it's not only BMW who is using butter rims. Ok, the KTM will take more punishment than an BMW but they are not that good...



Casper

Oh I agree ... totally. You can find plenty of threads of me criticising KTM for dumbing down their Adventure bikes ... That they used to put their best quality forks and rims on them, and now they put their cheapest forks and rims on them. Having said that, it still seems the cheapest WP forks are a long way better than BMWs cheapest tho. Rims? I think both 990 rims and F800 rims come from Behr ... not sure if there is any difference in spec. KTM also go too far when it comes to saving money on outsourced components (rims, fuel pumps etc), but it seems not always quite to the extreme level BMW do.

If you get a 990, its one of things you need to change before you go offroading. Again, its something that someone who buys a 990 and wants to ride to Magadan should be aware of. My reference to the 990 earlier in the thread was more regarding suspension than rims.

A friend of mine, Joe Pichler (http://www.josef-pichler.at/), does a lot of marketing rides for KTM on the adventure side ... rides across Africa, Siberia and South America for promotional and marketing pics ... has been using 950s and 990 from 2003 till 2011 ... and the main change (and first change) KTM marketing guys made to his bikes before each trip was the rims - changing to either the DID dirtstar rims or any Excel rims.

See also:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ehr-rims-22519

and my post on the same topic on another forum:

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012 - The Toughest Ride of Them All

Thats becuase more and more companys are being run by accountants where they will try to save every last penny to make themselves look better

I'll be bolting these together when they finally come into our place...

I really do hope they're impressive.

As a historic BMW hater, my new job has opened my eyes up to many things.

They're not as bad as I thought. They're actually really good enjoyable bikes.

Would I take one travelling though.............

NOPE !!!!!
.

As will i :clap:

I have always thought they are fun bikes to ride, not tried them for anything more then a test ride though.

I bet I scratch a screen with my T25 before you do !!

:Beach:

Joe Dakar (official BMW off road instructor, BMW tour guide and BMW tour guide instructor), is doing the BMW Launch project for the 800 Adventure ... A ride to Magadan ...

The project - JOEDAKAR - MOTORCYCLE ADVENTURE, MEDIA & MORE...

http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/s9294131e.../std/image.jpg

I just spoke to him yesterday about the rims to warn him.

He told me that BMW marketing had already changed the rims to proper ones !

Does this mean that we will only receive a highly sensored marketing version on how it fairs ???



www.touringted.com

Joe is a marketing professional ... He has done marketing for Wunderlich and Touratech before and is now associated with BMW ... so there will be some censorship obviously - its his career. But he is blogging it live, so there is a limit to how much you can censor. You cant edit out major problems live ... only minor ones.

If he goes quiet for a week and then restarts in the same place, then you can be pretty damn sure some large details have been left out.

But from all I have seen of the 800GS, having helped a number of people take them to pretty rough places, is that the bike itself is suprisingly tough. Its durable. Its got a pretty bulletproof frame and engine. I have no doubt that the bike will make it. I also have no doubt Joe would rather do it on his X-Challenge, as indeed he was planning to do last year - lead a tour to Magadan all on X-Challenges. I guess when this bike popped onto BMWs radar, they all decided it was best he does the trip in 2013, on the new bike, and not as a public tour.

The five issues that seem to come up a lot with the F800 are (1) its much too heavy for what it is (2) the suspension is poor (3) the wheels are crap (4) many people want more fuel (5) the seat is not comfortable

The Adventure version addresses the last 2 of those 5 issues. Its better than nothing, but it would have been very easy to fix the suspension and rims while they were at it. And score 4 out of 5 for effort.

I still remember when I realised how extreme it was ... the day I learned that BMW paid the suppliers of the 1200GS rear shock 27 EUR a piece at OEM supply level, - the same shock that if you buy from a parts counter will cost you about 900, thats when I realised how much they save on these components. Thats when I realised for another 27 EUR you could have had a shock that was TWICE as good. Or as mentioned earlier, for an extra 20-30 EUR you could have had two Excel rims on your F800GS instead of those horrible Behr rims.

But really, can you blame the companies? They are only just reacting to public demand. Its the public that demand bikes be as cheap as possible. For adventure bikes especially, I would prefer they were as good as possible rather than as cheap as possible - but I am in a minority. It goes back to the fact that 95% of adventure bike buyers arent going anywhere except up and down motorways and daily commutes. Those buyers dont want to pay extra for good rims or suspension because they dont need it. And the manufacturers cant make all this stuff optional, it would be too expensive. Its either in or its out of the standard spec. 95% of buyers want it out. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, it took KTM a while to figure that out - but they are heading there too now.

The market gets what it deserves.

The five issues that seem to come up a lot with the F800 are (1) its much too heavy for what it is (2) the suspension is poor (3) the wheels are crap (4) many people want more fuel (5) the seat is not comfortable

I'm just an 800GS pillion but here's my 2 cents. 1.The bike is heavy for what it is and tall. It'll roll over anything but if you are loaded going up a steep dirt track & hit rocks...you might end up taking a dirt nap unless you are super tall & long legged. 2. Can't complain about the suspension. I'm a big girl and we have gone airborne & landed HARD in Kyrgyzstan. We've done lots of gravel, rocks & dirt, bad road & off road and the stock suspension is still going strong. Can't say the same about some of the bikes we've crossed with that had after market suspension. That's a sucky problem to have on a fun road. 3 we have a dent in the front wheel rim but it hasn't affected the tire. That rubber band on the inside of the back tire just disintegrated though. We have also levered the tires off many times & managed to not damage the rims. That said Siberia would probably do them in:) 4. The tank is small but on a long stretch if you ride conservatively it's fine. We never ran out, even on the 420km stretch in Kazakhstan between stations.(we did carry extra though that we did not use) but that's a major complaint about this bike so lots of people will rejoice. 5. The seat. Ok from me the pillion: it's a plank of wood. This is something I will say hooray that they are paying attention to. If you are going to make a RTW bike that can tackle lots of hairy bits the seat is SO important! My a$$ is as hard as the next chicks but we had to put a giant wooly on that torture device. Yeesh!

Ok I do have to disagree with being able to ride 98% tarmac. There is an unbelievable amount of roadworks across asia. Most places they just tear everything up and make you ride some variation of gravel, dirt, mud, sand...and everything in between. It starts in croatia, albania, turkey where they grade the gravel nicely then all goes way downhill in the stans..Then there are other places where they paved 25 years ago but decades of rains, rockslides, trucks & abuse leaves massive road craters and whole missing sections (Georgia military highway or Assam) A lot of it is fun and the 800GS chomps it up.

Si
(In Malaysia, just passed 50,000km on our RTW ride)

On that particular bike he is gonna use on his trip or in general?

I kinda sorta fell asleep looking further through the postings whether we have now been blessed with wisdom for free. Now, have we?

Gotta go now and set up a paypal account to be paid for further sharing my golden words with you lot. doh
Cheers
Chris

He is taking two F800GS Adventures From Germany to Magadan, starting June 10th, as a promotional launch trip for BMW. BMW have told him they have changed the rims already.

He gets to use the bike before its launched, because its BMWs promotion of the bike. They are BMWs bikes, not his. His bike is an G650 X-Challenge last time I asked.

In the same way that Joe Pichler (also mentioned above) got the KTM 1190 Adventure to take on a ride down Africa, a couple of months before it was released, as KTMs promotion of that bike.

haha, I guess you're asking the right guy...

You mean an easier option such as spending 10 seconds on a google search to find all the massive amounts of info Colebatch has provided about his bike and his adventures in multiple and very lengthy threads on this and other fora? You should try it.

F800's were plagued with problems.. You couldn't go a day without seeing another dead F800GS thread on a forum.

I've only been working in a BMW for three months so my experience still has it's limits but I have to say that the only F800 problem I've had on my bench was the older model with the heat exchange problem (which turned your oil into milk)..

I have been doing it for the last 4 years and the only major problems i have seen is with the s and st models engine wise(i have one sitting in pieces in my bay atm), never had a gs engine go tbh and they have fixed that engine problem now. As far as servicing the gs goes they are one of the more reliable models, obviously most people who will get it serviced in the dealers probably wont be doing anything to hardcore on it but compared to the others i dont see many reoccuring problems.

If the road to Damascus was to be open at this moment, this would equate to a biblical event of long ago.
Let the light shine in! :D

I used to like the belt drive system for the S/ST for highway riding but never have owned one, partly because of the various discussion in the fora over the years + I don't like to be a beta tester of any bikes so I tend to own models that have been "ironed out". Often the discussion referred to piston slap as one issue with this twin engine.
So, what has changed or was that all consumer "chatter"?

Bmw's belt drive is worse then their rear differentials on the 1200s. Constant bearing failures on the early models and because of the materials they use for the eccentric in the swingarm it corroded alot meaning you cannot get the bearings out of the eccentric meaning you have to replace the whole thing. This doent seem to be as common an issue now mainly high milage bikes but you cant expect bearings to last forever right, seems the eccentirc is still made from the same material though making it nearly impossible to replace the bearing without just replacing the eccentric. No problems with the actual belt dirve itself though. Piston slap was a problem on early bikes again, which would lead to engine failure if left to long. BMW Updated the pistons aswell as alot of other parts inside the engine, cant remember what exactly. The new pistons were realised in ~2008 so bikes from that age should be ok, we have had customers do 30-40K miles on the new pistons and no sign of the problem reoccuring, early ones you would be lucky to get to 10k miles without deafening you.

Totally off topic, but it's reckoned that the Damascus mentioned in relation to Saul/Paul is not the one the one in Syria that you are thinking of. After all, why would the Jerusalem high priests have sent Saul into a country outside of their jurisdiction to persecute Christians?

Off topic over, please carry on. :innocent:

The borders of the ancient countries of Judea & Samaria etc are not what the modern borders are; in fact, modern day Damascus is not that far from Jerusalem in absolute distance terms, really. A few hundred km, I believe.

Just sayin'.

Yes, a couple of hundred km.

From educate yourself: Paul "the Liar" and Qumran "the Damascus"

Apologies for going off topic again. :)

Thanks for these interesting insights into the S/ST model.
I heard that the belt needed to be changed about every 24K miles which is pretty good compared with many chain systems, considering the maintenance free nature of the belt system and, I think, that the "sprockets" did not need to be changed.

I guess the 800GS has been sorted out by now, with the lack of the belt drive issue and the revised pistons + the other bits that you mention.
There have been one or two comments made in the HUBB in the past about the reliability aspects of the 800GS model but they have tended to lack any definition of the perceived issues, or evidence for that matter.

Oh well, whichever road the Saint was travelling, the volte-face of a week ago is revolutionary.

I built a new one up yesterday.. Brand new 2013 out of the crate.

Fired her up and thought that the bike had been shipped without oil in by some gargantuan error.

Then I remembered that they all sound that way.... It's hard to know when they are going wrong as they sound broken when they're new :smartass:

However, I thoroughly enjoyed the test ride around the country lanes. Great bike power/weight wise.

Sure it does last longer with very little maintenance but when it costs over twice as much as a chain and sprocket set it doesnt begin to look so good. Also in the unlikely event you get a stone under your belt it'll cause a bulge which i as a technician would write the belt off for.


They do get shipped with running in oil in them but even so the 800 engine does sound like a jar full of marbles. I have repaired so many 800 engines you kind of get in tune to what they should and shouldnt sound like.

We got our F800GSA in today and BMW really have tried with this bike. At first looks it looks like the 800GS has been eating doughnuts non stop for the past 3 years. The tank is bigger, it looks huge compared to the standard GS. The front fairing has been given the fat man treatmen aswell, they have spaced it out a good few inches either side for the radiator which makes space for the spotlights which sit either side of the radiator neatly tucked behind the fairing where they made extra space. The screen is a tall upright job, much bigger then the 800gs tall screen. Although the seat height is only 10mm taller it feels much more as it has the comfort seat as standard which is alot wider then the standard bench taking up alot more of you instep, although it is really really comfy. The centre stand has also been changed and you can put the bike on and off of it with very little effort. All of the fairing panels have been ruggerdised aswell and feel alot more resilient. I have not ridden it yet but im sure it wont be too much different from the standard GS.

head-stock bearings too..

I've done about 3 sets of these in the last 3 months. All around the 15,000-20,000 mile mark.

Very notchy 10 degrees each side from centre. Makes the bike horribly twitchy when you test-ride it.

They're practically dry of grease when you press them out..

I'd expect a set of 'premium quality' head bearings to last 40,000 miles in a bike.

Still, I do love the 800 twin motor. I love it in the GS and the ST... If I were buy a BMW, it would be a hard decision between them. The ST is so much fun on the country lanes. The low down grunt and speed it winds up so smoothly is a real joy to ride. I prefer that over many inline fours now.

Even the GS pulls nicely. It's top end is as fast as anyone really needs it to be but it's got a great spread of power down the rev's...

I might borrow one for the next HU meeting :)

Yup quite common on the f650/800 twin models, the s/st dont suffer as bad though.


You obviously work for a better company then me lol :funmeterno:

Get used to it ... now that you are living in a BMW world. One consequence of BMW's like of a stable steering geometry is that you go through head bearings at twice the rate. Doesnt matter what quality of bearing to change to, its not the bearing quality that causes it, its the inherent stability in the geometry favoured by BMW. I like the way the geometry is on BMs, and have to add steering dampers, and less offset triple clamps to products that have come out of Mattighofen to try to increase stability. but the flipside of it, is you spend more on head bearings.

I never expedition without spare head bearings if I am on a BMW.


You are supposed to be on the road then ... :mchappy:

You will never get to Magadan if you prioritize HUBB meetings over travel!

HUBB meetings are for those who arent out on the road that summer !

Trust me.... I'd be on my way tomorrow if my wallet wasn't made of onion skin. (It makes you cry when you open it) ;)

I think I will need another 18 months saving before I can hit the road for Russia. And I want to spend 6-8 weeks in Indonesia this winter if I can get the time off :D

Its okay though. I'm doing a couple of back to bare metal bike restorations and welding projects to keep me out of trouble for the time being....

That is astonishing. What is the failure mode, exactly ? Ruling out off-road chopper geometry the difference on loading of the headstock and associated bearing surfaces would be minor between say, a KTM EXC (114kg) and a KTM ADV 950/990 (closer to twice the weight of the EXC) and . . . while they do see very differing applications . . . I don't think you'll find a the failure rate of headset bearings being much different. In fact, the twitchy EXC (on road) might be worse. And it's not uncommon to change the triples on the ADVs to QUICKEN steering.

It also strikes me as a bit unacceptable, or at least highly undesirable, because while previously KTM ADVs often had water pump seal issues at 25000km that repair can be effected on the road, with almost no special penalty in tools that would be normally carried. Headset bearings ? Nyet.

Are the bearings just dry as previously mentioned ? (DRZ swingarm bearings are notoriously dry though nobody seems to be too generous there . . . ) Is the seal just a rain gutter into the bearings ?

I think Colebatch comes with important consciderations earlier on, and he didn't deserve the bashing. Opinions were sought and given. And, we are all a bit touchy feely when it comes to bikes, right? Kiss up and make friends - it is all with good intention.

The Bimmer in question though is undoubtably a very capable bike, it will take you anywhere you want to go, and do a decent job at it _ I really won't trust anyones judgement that oppose to this (that's just me). If I can take my classic Vespa scooter off road, over rocks, ruts, sand and mud in Africa (with a lot of pushing), the F800GSA will manage, promise! This is not the same to say that it is the most suitable at all things, like riding harcore offroad at higher speeds. But, I guess if you are experienced enough to willingly embark on a "mostly offroad" trip - you probably allready know this, right? If you are not, well then you will likely plan a trip with very mixed riding, most of it being both bike and biker friendly - and in such a case, the 800 won't have you banging yourself too much over the head too much of the time.

Do I want a F800GSA? Yes!
Do I want a 400'ish cc type offroader? Yes!

I currently ride the F650GS Dakar and also have a full blood F250WR enduro Yamaha as well (among other bikes). The Yamaha is by far the most agressive bike, and the most fun and easy to ride... but, even its road legal sibling, the service intervals, tank capacity, lack of subframe, etc - means that it is a no go type bike for me. I do infact like to bring more stuff with me tah fit in a simple saddle bag... and I am not too fond of numerous jerrycans.

Sometimes I wish the Dakar was lighter and more nimble, at other times I wish I had the better road and load traits of the 800. I want a new bike, but I can't decide which way to go, even though I am fully aware of the pros and cons of going bigger or smaller. The problem is the same that many of us share, I want to make the best compromise for the lifetime that I will own the bike. For the forseable future though, the offroading share won't be great - and as such, the larger Bimmer would be a great choice for me. But, for an extended African adventure, I would sell it in a heartbeat and go for something much much lighter - not because the bimmer wouldn't hack it, but because I would enjoy the trip much more travelling light - even my Dakar would be too heavy for my taste.

My two cents. If you plan to do a very long trip beyond places like western Europe and the USA, then I would go for a light bike. You never plan to do frequent short offroad trips, either you allready do or you don't, and you will then know what you need. If you'r bike is your daily ride at home, and you mostly do trips arround Europe, with a few weeks every odd year to places like iceland or morocco, maybe even as far as Senegal, then I would go for the 800. Ride all the way to Congo? I would think you would likely regret every ekstra kilo you brought with you. If you still can't decide - go light... it is also cheaper.

As for the rims - if they are crap - change them, right? Unless you go top shelf, the relative extra cost of the total bike and all the stuff that you will load it with, won't murder your piggybank (...if you are the kind of person that buys a brand new one of these... and all the riding gear and gismos that typically fit the uniform).

A question for the techies
 

From the link in the OP, the electronics are described as:_
"Mixture control/engine management Electronic fuel injection, digital engine management (BMS-K+)"

Does this mean that this model (or even all 800GSs) have the CANbus system?

Yes. The only model in the current bmw range that doesn't run canbus is the g650 models.

I think the follow up question has to be, does the GS-911 tool also work with the F or is there a flash code or some other means outside an equipped dealer ?

Cheers

Andy

I believe it does work with the F series.

Most Japanese bikes either have in-built diagnostics as per your (and mine!) V-strom or are covered by HealTech.

TuneECU cover a lot of bikes as does DealerTool.

Yamaha Tenere owners can buy the official Yamaha tool for about sixty quid.

So no real excuse for the home mechanic to be stumped by all that electronic stuff; in many ways, it has made our jobs easier IMHO.

When is this bike going into mass-production? Can i order it with tubeless tyres? :thumbup1:

- Thanks for the two books you recommended. I just ordered them online.

- i'm having some off-road experience, two weeks Marocco and two months crossing West Afrika. Came from a suzuki v-strom 1000, changed it for a new yamaha tenere (2008) which was my first Marocco companion and is in Nigeria now (for sale there).
At home (Belgium), i'm riding a BMW GSA the whole year. No car anymore. Now i'm looking for a new lighter all-round bike, have seen the new F800GSA at the dealer few day's ago. Was thinking about changing my GS for it. Reading this topic i'm more heading to a X-Challenge now as a second bike in Belgium and once preparing for a RTW tour.

this also made me change my mind. Buying other rims is a peace of cake, other engine out of the question. :-)

But just curious, could you comment more on this?
It's kinda heavy for off-road, i know ( just saw this > youtube: F800GS trail adventure ) but so is my Yamaha Tenere, 'top-heavy' while the BWM's gravity center is lower due his lower located fuell-tank. But these are somewhere dual purpose bikes. And loaded with long-time-travel luggage on such bikes i would for sure avoid trail tracks anywhere as much as possible :-) Have done some day's on sand(y) tracks in West Afrika, whished i was on a bicycle those day's! :rolleyes2:

Gs800
 

Given the 800's meager power (say in comparison to an 7-year old KTM ADV), it's woeful suspension components . . . it's pretty heavy "for what it is".

The OEM front rim on the KTM 950/990s is soft. But . . . without knowing the exact model . . . I've seen plenty do far more than the eastern BAM without a problem. I have an Excel A60 1.6 on mine.

As for the "cheap" KTM forks ? The company is guilty of being a box of (high quality) parts across really all models. There are ALOT of BMWs running WP (KTM) forks for all the right reasons.

Recently, on ADVRider someone put forth an "Ohlins" upgrade over the standard WP parts on ADVs/SEs via a poll.

Over 60% of respondents said "nope, I'll spend the money on beer". The majority of those had re-valved and/or re-sprung their forks. KTM suspension parts are pretty good, at least.

Yes I can comment more on the weight issue.

The dry weight of the outgoing standard R1200GS is 203 kgs.

The dry weight of the F800 Adventure is the same. Its supposed to be a lighter bike - a middle weight bike. It isnt. If 200 kgs is a big adventure bike then middle weight bikes should be 165-180 kgs dry. I cant see how anyone can consider a 229 kg wet weight bike (without luggage) anything but a big / heavy bike.

The problem is when you look closely at an F800, you struggle to find any evidence on the bike have BMW designers been weight conscious. If BMW had put a little effort into weight reduction the bike could easily be 25 -30 kgs lighter

Your Tenere 660 is also about 185 kg dry weight. As far as I am aware, its the heaviest single cylinder bike in the world. Possibly the heaviest single cylinder bike ever built. Again, Yamaha has made zero effort to reduce weight. That bike could be 40 kgs lighter.

Manufacturers make a lot of effort to reduce weight on track replica bikes, on MX bikes and on proper enduro bikes. But they dont make any effort on adventure bikes. And if the adventure bike buying public dont demand lighter adventure bikes, the manufacturers never will bother making any effort to reduce the weight of them.

In response to your debating of F800 vs X-challenge (144 kgs dry), I recommend you read these thoughts from a man who not only owns both, but has done proper off road adventuring on both the F800GS and the XC (each bike for at least 3 months across Siberia and Latin America) - With that experience of both bikes I know of no-one more qualified to give a balanced, objective comparison on real world adventuring on those two bikes:

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012

The same guy, in another post in an answer to a question about comparing the two as adventure bikes, wrote this:

Bear in mind he was referring to the F800GS ... the new F800Adventure is 15-20 kgs heavier again!

A further interesting observation related to weight from one of us HUBBers riding around the world on a KTM 690 (138 kgs dry) at the moment. He was last month in the stunning scenery of Tajikistan ...

ADVrider - View Single Post - RTW with Noah on a KTM 690

Why have a big bike if it will limit your trip?

To me this is one of the ultimate questions that I see people who are new to Adventure Motorcycling failing to ask themselves. Certainly there are some very skilled riders for whom a big bike will not limit their choice of routes. But they are a tiny minority in the world of adventure riders. For the rest (98%) of us mortals, we need to seriously consider weight.

You should not be limiting your adventure because of your choice of a heavy bike. If a person limits their adventure because of the weight of their bike, then the adventure itself was not their priority. Maybe image is? Maybe something else? (not that there is anything wrong with that)

My experience when it comes to bike selection, gear selection, tyre selection etc .... is you should plan for the toughest parts of your trip. If a guy is riding from London to Cameroon, across the Sahara, the experienced man will not select his bike, his tyres, his luggage as to what will work best on the motorways of Europe. If the hardest part of that planned trip is the dunes of the Sahara, then he needs his choices to first and foremost, be compatible with that. Any adventure bike for a given trip is a compromise. But the selection criteria you should compromise the least, are those required for the hardest parts of the trip. A wise choice is not an even compromise between all aspects of your trip, its a compromise heavily biased towards the hardest parts of your trip.

You should plan (and select gear) for the toughest parts of the adventure you want to have. Any bike, any luggage, any tyres can deal with the easy stuff ...

Here are more observations related to bike weight from another HUBB writer a few weeks ago in Mongolia:

Whats clear from those observations is that the amount of fun was totally connected to the weight of the bikes.

Here's another story from last year and Mongolia - written from the perspective of a different guy on a KTM 690 (138 kg dry):

ADVrider - View Single Post - Sibirsky Extreme 2012

[edit] A new comment just in from UB, from another adventurer, whose 1200 GSA was too heavy for the job and ultimately arrived into the Mongolian capital on the back of a truck.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mongolia-71550

The reality is, as soon as you get off the asphalt, weight is a very very important issue. Lose 40 kgs and its a totally different experience, as the guy comparing his experiences between the F800 and the XC pointed out. The difference between suffering / enduring somewhere like Mongolia and enjoying it, is 40-50 kgs in bike weight.

Thank you very much for your great reply and effort!

I just wrote an email to a Belgian motorbiker friend whom i met in West Afrika if his x-challenge was not for sale and if not, he new another one to buy for me an tune up with his help, experience and advice :-)
his bike > My RTW his bike > XChallenge - ADVrider

Most people probably agree that it's easier to use a light bike offroad then a heavy bike. I own a 400EXC and a 200 (210?) kg BMW and I can go places with the EXC which I find impossible with the BMW.

But on the other hand I would say that my heavy BMW has never limited my trips. What have limited my trips are lack of range. I need a bike which can carry fuel for 750 km and water for a few days and all my other luggage. Basically I would say that a heavy bike is more suited for heavy loads, in general it's better to add 100 kg to a 200 kg bike then adding the same weight to a 150 kg bike. (handling, frame, brakes etc).
I've met quite a few travelers in Africa who use light bikes but still stick to the main route because they simply don't have the range to get off the main routes. This have been more common the last years.

If you don't need the range and plan to do a lot of hard offroad a lighter bike might be a better choice.

I also think that pleasure is an issue. For me it's much more fun to ride a bigish powerful bike, 50.000 km on a single cylinder bike doesn't sound like my kind of fun - but people are different.

bier

Docsherlock,
There has to be scope in this for a brand new thread that spells out the facts about bike electronic diagnostics, such as what they can do, what they can't do, and similar facts.
This might serve to dispel some of the tendency to treat the circuitry of modern bikes as being "black magic" and not something for "real" old skool mechanics.

totally agree! bier
But lifting up our heavy Tenere bikes 10 times a day on sand roads in Senegal (see picture) ain't fun anymore :-)

So people and roads are diffirent! :-)

Big bike, light gear
 

I also think that pleasure is an issue. For me it's much more fun to ride a bigish powerful bike, 50.000 km on a single cylinder bike doesn't sound like my kind of fun - but people are different.


bier[/QUOTE]

With much less experience than many of the contributors, I am trying a approach with this type of pleasure in mind.
I have a 2006 1200GSA that I took half way around Australia with 55kgs worth of gear including hard panniers. The few times I went off road were scary, based on the weight and my lack of experience.

Using the expertise of the Ultralight community (backpackers/cyclists/others on the Hubb), I have reduced my gear to under 20kgs. I have replaced the battery, replaced the rear rack and rear seat with a plate and gone for Giant Loop soft luggage, also replaced the stock muffler. This reduced my weight by 22kgs before gear! All up saving of 44kgs!

I have sufficient gear to do a RTW trip (minus food and water) and my bike is around the standard weight for a GSA of 260kgs fully packed. While that is still a heavy bike, I am trialling it with that setup around some harsh Australian off-road in The Kimberley (WA). I am not in an enduro race and I don't need to push myself to extremes, but I do enjoy some fun off road and so far I have traversed deep and sometimes wet red sand, knee deep creek crossings, corrugated and stoney roads and the bike has handled it all easily. I can happily skip across some gnarly roads at 100km/h with ease. Yes I've come off but a standard GSA is not that heavy to pick up for me, so no big deal so far.

I rode 9000kms on tarmac to get here and the same bike is handling this terrain, all with comfort, tons of power and ease.

I also have a Yamaha XT600 that I used to regain my riding skills on. Great bike, but would not have considered it for a minute to do what I have done on the GSA. It was hard work to ride over 100km/h on the highway and never felt as stable as the GSA in any conditions. That was without gear.

In summary, A large bike with very light gear is my choice. I'm sure the 800GS would be equally capable with light gear and significantly less total weight than the 1200.

Question to all: How many of you weigh all your gear and know exactly the weight you are carrying?

Well done !

As previously noted - the GS is no lightweight. It's academically close to the GS and actually weighs more than a KTM 950/990 with significantly less power and very marginal suspension off-road.

I use a very accurate fish scale - total weight now just under 20kgs of gear, parts, tools, etc.

My plan is to do far too many kms this summer. It's about the last way I like to travel but time demands cannot be changed and neither can Siberian nor high-mountain weather !

My KTM ADV is just about 200kgs with fuel and gear. Soft bags, no racks, elimination of OEM battery, 2-1 exhaust, etc - a lot of weight has come off.

It's STILL heavy and at the same time lighter and more composed (by leagues) than either a GS1200 or GS800 offroad on which I will be alot, alone.

But once I am hemmed in by roads again . . . a much lighter bike would be awful for the necessarily long distances.

I'm with Walter, philosophically - pick the bike for 90% of your riding. But on rides eclipsing 10,000kms, nevermind RTW, that's not much guidance. 90% of time ? 90% of distance ? 90% of difficulty ?

So . . . from the backpacking community - take the smallest pack you can live with because you'll ALWAYS fill it.

I think the 950 is about as small as could be done (!) for my current ridiculous goal(s) . . . but I still wish I could find another 30 kgs to remove. Especially in the middle of Siberia, solo.

It's such a grey area isn't it...

So.. Pick a bike that you do 90% of your riding on !!! In the U.K. I do 99% tarmac.... So should I ride a fireblade to Siberia ?? :eek3:

I know that's not what you meant but here's my point.....

I love to travel with a lightweight bike which is more off-road capable. And 95% of my travelling is on paved roads....Sure, I'm stuck doing 70 mph on the highways but that's always a bonus in hindsight. Going slower, you really do smell the roses. But that's not my point either.

If you have a smaller, lightweight bike then you aren't restricted physically or mentally when you have an unforeseen opportunity.

Eg... When I was in Africa most of the best places to camp or stay were down on the beaches, on lake-sides or up on mountain tracks. On the map, all of these places are close to well paved roads.

I met so many riders on big, heavy bikes that couldn't/wouldn't make that short 5 mile detour of off-road and they ended up staying at the stinky hostel in the next village.

Their bikes were capable but it would of been a stressful challenge and not easy and after a long day on the road. The mental challenge of a daunting dirt track on a 260KG bike just didn't appeal. It wouldn't have to me either.

Blasting off down an unknown dirt path on a 650 Single ain't no bike deal is it !!!

It would be the theme............. All the big GS'S parked up outside hostels/hotels watching SKY News in a hotel bar and all the lightweight knobbley tyred bikes were sleeping on the lakeside, looking at the stars with the sound of hippos grunting in the distance.

THAT'S my point...

Even if you plan to do most of your trip on tarmac (and most of us do), having the bike that can EASILY do rough tracks and sand really opens up your possibilities to experience the things that you left home see.

Well, people have different opinions but I think most of the best places in Africa are far from paved roads. They might be days, and some times weeks from the paved roads. Personally I stay away from the paved roads as much as possible. That's when range is necessary. Chris Scott once mentioned that fuel is range and water is time, I like both.

BTW:
I'm leaving to the southern parts of Norway now and will be offline for a few days. My family is in a car and will be there in four hours, I will drive the backroads and gravel and will use 12 hours. Maybe a lot more if this night extreme weather (called Geir) have messed up my route.
It's far better with 12 hours of fun then four hours of boredom.

I don't need to carry water this time :rain::rain::rain::rain::rofl:

This reminds me of earlier discussion which questioned the positions of the centres of gravity of bikes: I would fully expect that the CG of the big bike is lower than that of the 800, but I don't recall any definitive answer to the query.

A low CG assists greatly for those who find it easy to pick up a dropped 1200GS, not even taking into account that the 1200 bike doesn't go over fully onto it's side (in a simple drop, discounting more major spills) but just lies there on one of the pots. With some of the massive crash bars/outriggers that can be fitted to these the bike may not be at much more than 45 degrees to the horiz.

For once I agree, there are a few plusses between the R12GS(A) and the F8GS(A); chain drive (can be fixed), fuel economy (still not in xC land, but close), and as I've had both the R12GS and GSA I still find that the F8GS is sooo much easier to drive. Some people might be unhappy with the std. wind protection, but for me it works, if I can't hang on, then I'm just driving to fast - and I can stil do +800km days.

But you're absolutely right, coming from the R12GSA (a year later) I still find the F8GS easier to driver, but looking at the xC standing next to an F8GS(A) one see the difference, and I understand your arguments. The xC is a pure 50/50 bike....

The problem is that BMW decided to stop making small interesting bikes like the xC, which makes the next option the F8... or a different brand.



Casper

They're actually planning on making smaller capaity bikes

From: BMW Partners With India’s TVS to Build New Motorcycle Series - Bloomberg

Thats exactly what you will read.

As I said earlier, Joe is a marketing pro. So you will read that its not the bikes fault :)

You will read that its not cause the bike was too heavy. :)

Shame......

It would be nice to hear a possitive travel report about the F800 that you could actually believe one day.

Absolutely...... And they're the places you will very rarely see anything apart from 4x4's and smaller off-road capable bikes.

I wouldn't drag a fat 1200cc bike too far from the road. I just can't be bothered with it. It's no fun and usually an accident waiting to happen.

Kudos to those who can be bothered.

Well in fairness to the bike, it seems quite tough. All the reports I have read and seeing it on the trails riding next to me, the F800s can take a beating. But its just damn heavy. They cut 30 odd kgs off the 1150 when they made the 1200 ... And I can see at least 30 kgs they could cut off the F800 if they made the effort. The engine alone could easily be 15+ kgs lighter. It weighs 65 kgs !!

I know the Swedish engineers at Highland build V-twin engines in up to 1150 cc, that weigh sub 40 kgs. USHighland Metric Engine Platforms for Builders, Manufacturers and Consumers. A parallel twin is potentially lighter than a V-twin. So its not exactly asking for the moon to ask BMW (who are capable of building Formula 1 engines in house) to spend a few days with Rotax and make their 800cc parallel twin no more than 50 kgs.

The weight of the bike is its unredeemable adventure liability - you can change the crappy rims. You can change the crappy suspension. But there is nothing you can do about its lardiness. Right from the early off road stages it appears Joe had to scale back on the ambition of the off-road mission across Eurasia, and took asphalt across Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan instead. To me, that can only have been caused by either too much weight for offroad and/or unpleasant handling offroad. Almost surely both.

As for believability, any bike comments from a factory sponsored ride is going to have its credibility limitations, some more than others:
Heres a KTM couple from Mattighofen (KTM employees on a KTM backed trip, plugged on the KTM website) on new 1190s having arrived in UlaanBaatar last month.
"we are extremely proud of our two KTM 1190 Adventure Rs... The bikes have been nothing short of ideal"

And if you believe that, I have some fine swamp land to sell you.

No ... Pick a bike that is compatible with the hardest parts of your planned trip, even if that hard part is just 5% of your trip.

Question to all: How many of you weigh all your gear and know exactly the weight you are carrying?[/QUOTE]

I use a 1975 R90/6, it weighs around 218 KG with around about 50% full tank.

Last year I weighed all my gear after coming back from a 6 week trip and was really shocked to see that I was carrying an extra 100 lbs weight! So I have switched from Krausers to Enduristan Monsoon panniers, with a single seat and have decided to be much more carefull about what stuff I take. I'm off again next week so may have time to do some weighing before I go, idea is to get luggage down to under 80ibs.

Changing from Ikon to Maxton shock absorbers saved 4ilbs alone!

Charles