Good God!
 

I have just read on another forum about a couple of bikers that take their bikes to the dealer to have the chain adjusted (not replaced, adjusted).

Fcuk me sideways - I've read it all now. Bikers ain't what they used to be.

In the unlikely event the culprits read this forum - GET A GRIP, BOYS!

Some bikes are company property ... on the expense account. Takes all kinds.

Odd this is in BMW tech, but could be F-series I guess.

The dealer adjusting chains will be going places. This is the exact business model all the large manufacturers want and BMW excel at. Get your bike renter back in the showroom every other day. Give him "free" coffee while the £80 an hour technician looks at the chain, confirms it is indeed still there and stamps the "safety" record and the salesman gets a go at convincing him his knackered old August-2013 200 mile bike isn't as good as last months upgrade which will only be another tenner a month so long as he doesn't go over the mileage limit.

How you get to this state of affairs is to copy what the IT providers do. Instil a fear of the device breaking. Fill the customers head with terrifying mumbo-jumbo and jargon. Be an utter **** if the thing goes wrong and the customers spending trend isn't in the top 20th percentile (again where BMW excel, claiming non-OEM petrol made the tyres go flat etc.).

The mobile phone model of pounds per month is way more profitable than the old vehicle builders who sold you something then had to compete for the maintenance.

Our problem is that as many here cannot fit the expected profile. I bet even if you could get your £199 a month/7p a mile over 100 a month bike connected to the diagnostic system in Ulan Bator, the computer system there wouldn't recognise your customer number.

The extremists of this business model, BMW and Triumph will either rise or fall on it's success. The Japanese big 4 can afford to hedge their bets. The consumer will choose, but it is the weekend riders who outnumber the long range travellers.

Andy

A few years back I borrowed a 2003 Ducati Multistrada 1000 for a trip to Europe. It was all a t short notice and i was not familiar with the bike so the extent of the prep did not go much beyond making sure I had a copy of the bike manual and the toolkit on board - after all that should be all you need for any routine maintenance on the road shouldn't it .......................

Anyway after a thousand miles miles or so the chain was a little slack so I got the manual out to check how to adjust it - the Multistrada has one of those concentric hub adjusters.

And the manual said 'take it to a dealer' :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

The toolkit did not even contain the tools necessary to do the job !

As an old school "biker" whose formative years were spent with oily fingernails and spanners in my pockets I too was initially amused by the thought of someone taking their bike to a dealer to have the chain adjusted, but thinking about it I'm not so sure I'm not the one off the normal spectrum these days.

Time was when bikes (and cars, but bikes more so) were hugely maintenance dependent and you were as likely to be changing a piston or a valve at the side of the road as you were adjusting the chain. Bit by bit the manufacturers have removed the weak spots to the point where there's not much the average owner is expected, or really needs to know about the mechanical side of things. I suspect many "weekend" low mileage bikes don't need their chains adjusting from one service to the next and, like much of the rest of the bits under the covers, can be ignored.

Part of the problem with the "no user maintainable parts inside" approach is the old Colin Chapman (founder of Lotus cars!) quote of "if I made it adjustable they'd adjust it wrong". Adjusting a chain does actually require a reasonable knowledge base as well as a number of tools to carry it out. You have to know that "as tight as possible" isn't the correct answer but if you're starting from scratch why would you assume that it has to be slack but just not as slack as it is. Years ago you could probably have picked up a copy of Motorcycle Mechanics magazine who would have walked you through the procedure step by step but they saw the writing on the wall years ago and reinvented themselves as Performance Bikes. Not much chain adjusting info in the last copy I read.

Of course it's an ill wind that doesn't blow anybody any good and reducing the knowledge base requires to ride a bike as a weekend hobby does give the dealers some chance to pull back an income stream lost when fitting new Norton crankshafts and fixing Triumph oil leaks were day to day jobs. If you can adjust your chain, rebuild your wheels or weld up a new frame think yourself lucky to be able to, but what else could you have been doing instead.

Nah - privately owned and expensed.

Agree with all your points in your posts, but adjusting a chain ain't in the same ballpark as welding a frame or rebuilding a wheel (neither of which are in my skill set)!

The business models of BMW & Triumph (and the associated maintenance hassles) are why I ride a V-strom and Tenere.....

I just picked up a 2010 KLR650. The headlight beam is too high so I checked the manual to see which way was up with the adjusters. Manual says "let the dealer do it"

Sheesh!

Yeah, but did ya take it to the dealer??:D

It wouldn't happen with a KTM; the manual even tells you how to change the light bulbs.

Of course, the solution is:-
"We have ridding from London to Everest Base Camp so far and with the Scottoiler on our F800GS we have not even adjusted the chain once. Can't fault the design and reliability. You can almost forget you have a chain on the bike. Through all the dirt, dust, mud and sand the Scottoiler has performed faultlessly"
Kevin Sanders – Co-Founder Globebusters
(taken straight out of the HUBB link -- http://www.scottoiler.com/uk/adventu...nlimited+Forum )

Isn't this the same guy who used to ride a shafty 1200GS?????

I agree, but the fact that you're able to make the distinction shows that you've traveled at least part of the way along the greasy fingernails highway. Have you noticed any reduction in your skill set over the years as replacement bikes have needed less doing to them? Nobody sets two stroke timing with a dial gauge any more (well I do but that's another matter) but it was almost a daily ritual years ago. Chain adjusting is just another step on that journey.

My wife doesn't ride but she does drive and has zero knowledge of car mechanics - to the point where she doesn't know where the bonnet release catch is. She doesn't need to as BMW have engineered out the need for her to lift the bonnet. Nothing has gone wrong in two cars over five years and the service intervals are a couple of hours in the dealers' every two years. I could easily see her taking the car to a dealer to fill the windscreen washer fluid (were I not around to do it) - and complaining about how hard it is to do.

Bikes are not quite at that stage yet but they need a lot less hands on intervention than they did and it's a trend that's only going to continue - even the Italians have had to raise their game! You're meant to enjoy them rather than enjoy repairing them.

Nope. Dealers here know less than anyone.

Plus I just bought a GSA so the KLR is gathering dust!

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

The dealer de-skilling is a bit of an advantage to us if they change the designs to match. If their YTS McDonalds reject can get the oil out without burning himself or destroying either your bike or the workshop, doing the same in a layby isn't going to be impossible. If they seal the engine and we work out they've done it (they'll hide behind inspecting filters and other non-jobs) we can ignore the service intervals so long as we are prepared to walk away from the warranty.

The risk is rubbish like having the "safety" light disable the ignition every 2500 miles unless a dealer is called in to inspect and reset it. None have dared do this yet. Their attempts at special tools go back to the Victorians and always fail in the end. If they can make an 69/93rds bolt, we can make an 18.8 mm socket. Same goes for electronics, some teenager will break the code and sell you a phone app to reset the light.

Suzuki BTW are getting lower in my opinion. The Wee-strom is fine with 5000 mile oil changes. The threat of a cancelled warranty if I don't let their grease monkey inspect my air filter (how do you do that BTW, open the lid and should "oi, boss, is this it?") every 3500 miles drives me towards Moto Guzzi who don't seem to care less so long as someone drops the oil once a year. Suzuki policy is to double the dealer visits and cost by taking the tank off at 4000 to inspect the air filter then again at 7500 to change the plugs. I changed both at 5000 and will again at 15000. Putting new oil in a dirty filter is stupid. Our local dealer seems to be able to change the plugs with the tank still on according to the paint marks on peoples bolts, stamps in their service books and £400 invoices. I bet he uses X-ray vision to inspect the air filters too. That or the invoices just buy more warranty?

Andy

The cynic in me has wondered for some time how of the drive towards having essentially trivial maintenance tasks done by a dealer is part of an attempt to just give them something to do and keep them in business. All manufacturers must face the same issue, that they're making cars (mainly) and bikes more reliable, with less parts needing periodic attention (when was the last time you greased your propshaft :rofl:) so there's less need of a semi skilled dealer workforce making up for design deficiencies.

Maybe if Touring Ted picks up on this thread he could give us some inside info on what typical day in his workshop consists of but, accident repairs notwithstanding, I wonder how much of the routine stuff could be (almost) eliminated if BMW set their mind to it when their designers start on the next generation of cars and bikes. I suspect there's a fine line to be trod between making vehicles that don't need dealer attention (during the warranty period anyway) and giving them so much to do that a reputation for unreliability means no one buys them in the first place.

A passing acquaintance of mine bought one of these new fangled 650DL about a year ago and, in negotiating with the Suzuki dealer, it was agreed that they could both ignore the intermediate "service" and the dealer would stamp up the service record book twice when the bike came in for the "more-normal" service interval; thereby, the dealer got his sale of a new bike and the customer got a bike that could go out on a tour of, say, Europe, without searching for a dealership along the way.


There is plenty of "street-talk" among owners of newish BMWs that the original reputation for reliability has been swopped for a modern reputation for good warranty cover - yes, yes, this is all very well if the dealership is close at hand and is up to the task!
Just a few years ago, the 1200GS was being "bashed together" in the Berlin factory by "pretty-much-untrained-immigrant-labour" (gastarbeiten) - such as wheel bearings inserted with a hammer; on a % basis this works OK most of the time (at least during the warranty period).
Any issues that arise under warranty can be sorted out by the dealers, which gives them work and an ongoing involvement with the marque.

Some years ago there was press speculation that future cars would not be designed with a bonnet (that's a hood for those using USA English) that opens; there would be a small hatch type door for checking oil and coolant levels and the engine would be sealed-for-life, even down to those seals that can be found on computers; "warranty void if opened".

They hit the limit with that one too. No bonnet puts off the buyers. Instead you open the bonnet to find a grey plastic sheet with just the washer bottle lid peeping out.

Andy

"The Wee-strom is fine with 5000 mile oil changes."

Mine isn't - gets noisier around the 3000 mile point, much improved after an oil change. Oil was knackered when it came out too.

I'll be doing mine as per the maintenance schedule thanks. Filter every 3rd change, as per maintenance schedule. Not sure why some dealers think they know better than the guys that designed, built and tested the bloody things.:innocent:

13 years in the automotive industry and we never let a draughty set a service interval. Marketing shout higher higher, aftermarket sales lower lower. The draughtys get left back in their booths playing cad.

Andy

Contrariness
 

I might set folks off with my take on this thread, but here it is.

I was initially surprised that the issue of having someone else do something to your bike was seen as so 'bad'. The HUBB itself is based on other people doing stuff that others can read about and it seems to be an OK thing.

Maybe the dealer showed the folks how to maintain their chain for the next time. Maybe the mechanic was working to save up to take her own trip and having customers is appreciated. Maybe the dealer was a friend of the motorcycle owner. Maybe the owner had tried to adjust the chain herself and just couldn't get it done right. I realize that I haven't read the other forum where the original post was located so some of this may have been answered. But, I still don't get why its OK to suggest what someone else is doing is cause for a 'can you believe it' type moment. Motorcyclists come in all styles.

Some, looking at the ad on the HUBB don't even adjust their chains (Scottoiler, apparently, works well)

Even Ewan and Charlie who've taken lots of heat have, served to expose lots of others into the world wide motorcycle travel arena.

My experience with HUBB folks over the past 7 years suggests most folks take a 'whatever, as long as you're out there' approach. Which I think is great!

There is more than the HUBB
 

Anyway, back on topic, the dealers should point them toward this website.
It has contained the section linked below for quite some time (+, since this is a Beemer thread, it also has/had a write up about tuning Bing carburettors).
Chain Adjustment + Wheel Alignment | Horizons Unlimited

Chain adjustment is one of those constant battles between the mechano-fiddlers and the riders. Modern chains and the things that come on Enfields and need boiling up in whale tallow on a Primus stove every 37 yards are entirely different beasts. Likewise, an oiler on a chain that would live without one is somewhere between a comfort blanket to control the voices in the fiddlers head and a source of grinding paste that causes more wear and allows more fiddling. We all find our own balance on that one. Some even take their medicine in huge doses but less frequently with shaft drive.

The E&C debate has been done to death. Lots of interest, lots of second hand R1200GS's about, most of the new recruits clogged up a few "extreme-adventure" rallies for a few years and have now gone back to treating their GS just like they did the Sportsbike before. If they enjoy it, fair enough.

What I think caused the shock (if you can call it that) is that chain adjustment would typically be viewed alongside filling up with petrol and putting air in the tyres. You would have to wonder how anyone who couldn't do this themselves would get more than a few hundred miles from home. Choosing to let a dealer touch a bike is also alien to many here. No one cares more about your bike than you do. Dealers use air tools and no grease and leave things that then can't be undone at the roadside. They install "upgrades" to the fuelling without telling you and make the bike run rough at altitude. They either want to replace additional things they spot like worn brake pads there and then or don't tell you where as the owner would order some and see if they need fitting in a week or two. Above all, dealers cost more. We should maybe thank the people who will pay £50 to get their chain adjusted as they are keeping the mechanics employed until we need them. Unfortunately I suspect their lack of knowledge will lead the dealer to employ chain adjusters who'll be useless when we need a gearbox rebuilt.

Personally I'm currently embracing the throw away culture. Buy a new bike, ride the **** off it, do just enough serving at home to keep it alive until the MOT is due then trade it back to a dealer for another. If it makes it there on trade in day it's mission accomplished. My extra depreciation is less than I'd have paid in dealer service charges. When the ***s stamp up the service book and sell it on to someone who can't afford new it's the dealer doing the dirty on people and if they do believe a dealers salesman that's for them to sort. I'll hand it over with photographs and receipts for every oil and filter change, way better than you'd get from their own mechanics.

Andy

Spot on there Andy. I tend to buy bikes used with a few thousand miles so the first owner eats the major depreciation, except for the wee which was new as there weren't any second hand ones around.

Turns out guy was taking his bike to dealer to have chain adjusted as it was free (presumably a chance for dealer to find something else to do and charge for that every month or so....). Wouldn't be worth my time or pride, personally.

Sherlock

Chain? What's that? I had a look on my bike but couldn't find one. Am I missing something?

Not having problems keeping up in traffic are you, as it could have fallen off - maybe it was too slack. Might be an idea to give your dealer a call, they'll know what to do. :innocent: :rofl: