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oil temperature
Does anyone know what average oil temperature should be on a R100GS. I've just fitted a 43ltr tank and therefor changed the position of the oil cooler with the aid of the 'Touratech' relocation kit. I've also fitted an oil temperature gauge in place of the dip stick. This gauge reads between 100 and 120 which seems a bit on the high side.
....Bob |
I thought of posting this article but it is much too long and it does not specifically answer your question. But it has some good information. It is from the airheads.org
http://www.airheads.org/contrib/oils.html John |
Max oil temperature according to oil companies is around 240 F or 115 C.
However, it's not unusual for an airhead to hit 270 F (132 C) or so without an oil cooler, in hot climates and loaded. With an oil cooler you should get a max temp of around 235-2450F or 112 C to 118 C. With an oil cooler I'd be very surprised to get 120 C (248 F) in the UK. Either something is very wrong or your gauge is no good. Is the cooler hot to the touch? Perhaps the system isn't working and passing oil to the cooler. Note that an oil cooler is worthwhile for ANY airhead on a long trip, especially R100's. The HPN thermostat is especially worthwhile on an R100GS, as they don't have a thermostat, and take forever to warm up in cold temperatures - also not good! It's set to begin opening at 90C and is fully open at 110C, so that gives an idea of the temperature range they expect for moderate conditions. ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Thanks for the replies. Grant, the oil cooler is hot so I presume that the oil is reaching the cooler OK. I now think, at least, part of the problem ("OH REALLY") is that the rear of the high front fender sits directly in the way of the airflow to the oil cooler with only a few millimeters clearence between them. I could put more spacers and lower the fender, but this wouldn't increase the gap by much. I know 'Acerbis' make a front fender with "vents" so I could give that a try or cuts slots in mine and put some fine mesh over the slots to protect the cooler. Has anyone experiance of the 'Acerbis/Touratech' fender ?
The other thing is that the tank sits right over the cylinders and reduces the amount of airflow around them. Obviously there isn't alot I can do about that. I'll seriously consider the thermostat as I'll probably use the bike during the UK winter prior to our RTW next year. There was a thread regarding a second hand one somewhere on the site, I'll have a look. As far as I can tell the gauge is fairly accurate. I'll try boiling water and stick the gauge in it. ..Bob [This message has been edited by mcdarbyfeast (edited 21 September 2002).] |
I currently have the Acerbis "Baja" fender on mine - with the vents in front of the cooler. Fits well. I currently have the vent closed, but in really hot weather I'd probably open it up - if I thought of it. A wire mesh is probably a good idea.
Let me know how the temp check works on the thermometer. The tank on top of the cylinders shouldn't be a problem, unless you're sitting around idling a lot (a real no-no, very bad for the engine as it WILL overheat rapidly) and then it's probably only a small difference. As long as you're moving the tank will have NO effect on cooling. Look at my front boxes - no problem and they cover the cylinders more than a plastic tank. (more to the point is you're really heating up the fuel when you sit and idle! Some people have put silver heat duct reflective tape on the tank to reflect the heat away, but I doubt it matters a lot.) ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
I checked the gauge by filling an old beer can with boiling water then put the gauge into it. The reading was 97c, so pretty accurate.
I cut a slot into the rear of the front fender, about 2" wide and about 5" long but left the bottom part attached, then bent the flap forward so as any crud thrown up from the road wouldn't hit the oil cooler. It has made a huge difference to the oil temperature. The gauge now reads 100c while being driven on the open road and creeps up to about 110c in heavy traffic. I've checked the bottom of the tank, above the cylinders, it does get warm to the touch but not hot. I've decided not paint the tank, as it would make it look to pretty and attract the wrong sort of attention. I marked it off in gallon increments (I stole this idea from a guy I met at the UK 'Horizons' meet ealier this year) Thanks for all the info....Bob |
I think Grant may disagree with me but, I don't think you need an oil cooler.
I was riding with a friend who was on a 91 R100GS. One of the hose fittings with a piece of the oil cooler broke off of the cooler. I know of two other people who have had failures in the fittings and core ruptures. I know of one BMW dealer who advised people to remove the oil coolers because of these failures. His reasoning was that you are better off without fittings, hoses, cooler cores out in harms way. Especially on a bike that may be going off road. With the cylinders sticking out in the air you get the best possible cooling on a air-cooled motorcycle. It is far better to keep the oil in the engine and to change it on a regular basis. I remover the oil cooler on my 92 R100R with about 20,000 miles on the bike. I now have 159,000 miles on it. I have had the rings replaced twice and at 140,000 miles the heads rebuilt but so far I have not had any problems that could be related to oil and over heating. I live in Nevada and do most of my riding in the desert and it is not uncommon to be riding in temperatures over 100 f ( 38 c). Thanks, I feel much better now. Grant do you really need an oil cooler? John Ferris |
As with most things, "need" is relative. Is a cooler a "good thing"? Absolutely. It will keep the oil temp lower and that is without doubt a "good thing" - ask any oil company rep what he thinks of oil temps in the 120C + range - it's not good!
Note the temp differences Bob got from a blocked cooler to unblocked - pretty significant. And his high temperature of 120 is definitely over oil company max recommendations of 115C - and that's WITH a cooler, just not doing a lot - without the cooler I'm sure it would have been a few degrees hotter still - and that's in the UK, not exactly notorious for it's hot weather. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif I have no doubt that John has the mileage he has, and many others will tell you the same story - BUT that doesn't mean that the engine is as healthy as it could be - especially main bearings and crank, and camshaft - all needing cool oil for the best lubrication possible - and perhaps not getting it as often as it would with a cooler. Where the cooler is critical is in hot hard slogs uphill in first gear, or through desert sand, or two-up fully loaded in the mud, or in Cairo traffic jams. Can you get away without a cooler? Sure. But BMW didn't put it on the 1000cc engine for no reason - THEY thought it was important enough to put it in a stupid location. You pays your money you takes your chances. John, I'd be interested to see what temps you are getting down there? As for the cooler location, use the HPN kit to get the cooler off the crashbar - one of the all-time stupid decisions any manufacturer has ever made - kudos to BMW for it's entry in the "Stupefyingly Stupid Ideas Hall of Infamy" As for cooler failure, HPN makes a bypass kit for just that purpose. Carry one. ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Hi Guys, thanks for all your help.
I'll keep the cooler and fit a thermostat before the winter. I've already ordered a bypass kit to take with us next year. ...Bob |
Help !
I thought I'd cured the overheating oil with the modifications made the front fender, but the problem has returned. The gauge now reads 115c to 120c most of the time, ambient temperature is around 21c in the UK at the moment. Having tested the gauge I'm fairly confident its working OK. I'm also happy that the mixture is right IE: not running to weak, as the plugs are a good color (lightish grey, not white) I've changed the oil and filter, adjusted the valve clearences (I noticed that there was a little blueing on the rockers, I don't know if thats normal) and balanced the carbs. The engine runs pulls strongly and cleanly. Ocassionally when 'cruising' at around 30mph (three to three and a half thousand revs) the engine doesn't run quiet as smoothly and feels like its holding back, but its hardly noticable most of the time and doesn't happen and any other speed or RPM. Fuel consumption is around 40-45mpg (I live in a semi-rural area and the roads are a mixture of slow country lanes and 'B' roads) The cooling fins are clean. There is a small 'spoiler' fitted to the front of the bike, just infront of the sump guard. This does cover the front of the cylinders slightly, but I wouldn't have thought would make that much difference. Am I being paranoid or is there a problem..!! |
Sounds like somethings not quite right, BUT it could be ok - it's kind of on the border line.
I suspect the gauge, not the bike. This type of gauge isn't notorious for it's accuracy. Can you try the gauge on another BMW? Contact the seller of the gauge - what sort of numbers does he get with it? ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Hi all.
Sorry for being slightly off topic, but I've always wondered what will happen when I drive my R1150R to India and get stuck in traffic in Bangalore. The ambient temperature should reach far above normal summer weather temps here in (c)old Norway, and with a lot of standstill, short go's and then stop's and standstill again, I've always suspected that the oil temperatur should rocket sky high. Probably well above recommended oil temperature. Then again I wonder: Would BMW actually build an engine with a cooling system that couldn't take this? In Germany bikers aren't allowed to split lanes in case of traffic jams, so they must follow the queue - which means standstills, stops and go's. Any idea, Grant? Best regards Indu |
Haven't had any reports of overheating problems with the R1150, but it certainly COULD overheat. I wouldn't worry about it, just be aware, and be prepared to turn it off if you're stuck in really bad conditions for a long time. Generally as long as you're moving a little, you should be ok.
Would they build a bike that CAN overheat - of course! ONLY watercooling has a hope of never overheating - and even then only if they have a fan to cool the radiator. All of which adds weight and complexity and cost. It's always a tradeoff for the manufacturer - we complain about the weight and complexity and cost, so they build it simpler, then we complain about overheating, lack of power, weak brakes, no heated seat, weak electrics... ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
hi
thought i'd add my grain of salt to the discussion: i did 140.000km on my '89 r100gs (with acerbis fender and 43 litre tank and a lot of luggage, with modified oil cooler). the oil temp was regularly around 120 or 130 degrees. i monitored the temperature... anything above 140 degrees necessitated a stop to let the engine cool down. this only happened very very very occasionally, usually going up very big hills/mountains with a tail wind (working hard and no cooling influence). in the rain the engine ran much cooler, of course, but i enjoyed it less http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/frown.gif i met a swiss fellow (also a bmw mechanic?) in cape town who had small electrically powered fans on each crashbar so that there more air across the engine. i'm not convinced how well the oil cooler works when relocated. mine was always covered in dirt. i can't say i did an empirical research, but i found that after an oil change the bike ran cooler for a while... so be nice to your engine... change the oil quite frequently. it is easy and oil is cheap. the engine on my bike was the only thing that behaved itself. pretty much everything else attached to it failed. good luck, cb |
Hi,
Just a final word from me. I asked the same question on the GS UK coms board site. I had several replies from guys who were using the same gauge, made by 'RR' Everyone who replied stated they regularly get readings anywhere from 100c to 120c even in the UK. I'm now stress free and will worry no more!(at least about my oil temp') ...Bob [This message has been edited by mcdarbyfeast (edited 05 October 2002).] |
Hi Bob,
Do you think that's high ?... My R80 hit the top of the gauge scale, i.e. over 170 celcius. Swaped to Omega oil (= pay through the nose expensive) and it dropped to a "mere" 140-ish. Do you have an oilcooler installed ? I have, and I do still have these rediculess tempratures. The reply BMW AG Sweden, UK and D gives me is that 140-ish is quite normal. I ponder and wonder; - then, how come, is it that the oil is supposed to lubricate best at about 90 degrees ?... (and, my engine ran much better, the very short time that I had the pleasure of having an oiltemp of about 90-110). Quote:
Albert Lindberg, D.C. address removed............ [This message has been edited by Grant Johnson (edited 08 October 2002).] |
Albert,
170 is ridiculous, and 140 is high. Sounds like perhaps something is wrong. Ignition too advanced, or carbs too lean, or ??? Have you had a full service done, timing checked, looked at plug colour, valves set etc? ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Hello Grant,
I know. 170 is rediculess. 140 is almost absurd. And that is with Lockhart oilcooler - I will now swap to BMW original to see if that makes any change; or do as a guy in Kenya, to mount dubble coolers. Carbs are set leanish, nicasilcoating is "polished", no real findings inspite of 8-10 years different overhauls. And as I wrote - BMW AG top it off by stating this is normal. I do fully agree with your reaction though. ------------------ Albert Lindberg, D.C. |
Hi,
Wow, I thought the engine would melt at 170c !! I have the original BMW oil cooler re-mounted on the front part of the frame behind the, high, front mudguard. The highest temperature I've seen is 130c while balancing the carbs. I turned the bike off immediately I saw this temperature and let it cool down. In normal running the highest was 120c, the ambient temperature on that day was about 75c and I was on slow moving country lanes, in 2nd & 3rd gear. If you read the rest of this thread Grant suggests a mis-reading gauge. What gauge have you got and have you tested it ? My 'RR' gauge only reads up to 140c ! Bob.. [This message has been edited by mcdarbyfeast (edited 08 October 2002).] |
I asked Oak Okleshen for his thoughts, and here's what he wrote:
Wow-Absolutely yes, 340 degrees F. is way too hot for engine oil. No ifs or buts. As one of your inputs stated, it is not uncommon to see 270F on an airhead machine without a cooler. That is precisely why BMW added the coolers. The maximum oil temperature should be no greater than 240F. The oil companies recommend 180-210 or so for maximum oil life. Some of the additives destruct almost exponentially after 220F . 240F is almost permissible for short periods of time but certainly not recommended. 340 is not only totally unacceptable for oil temperature, it is no doubt damaging to the engine. Some hardened bearings will start to soften much above 250 degrees. In short, an engine that is on the way to self destruct. Who was the person that suggested 340F was a normal or monitored temperature? Maybe he should check his temp gauge to insure it is reading correctly. You site was interesting as were the threads on the subject. Tell them to use an oil cooler. BMW's thermostatic model starts to come on about 215 degrees F and opens up completely by the time the temperature hits about 235 deg. The hotter the oil the more the cooler fights back to cool it. Usually with a cooler you won't see oil temperatures above 240F-at the very most.....Oak ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Temp conversions:
C F --- --- 50 122 60 140 70 158 80 176 90 194 100 212 110 230 120 248 130 266 140 284 150 302 160 320 170 338 180 356 190 374 200 392 210 410 220 428 ------------------ Grant Johnson Seek, and ye shall find. ------------------------ One world, Two wheels. www.HorizonsUnlimited.com |
Hi Indu[/B][/QUOTE],
R1150. On my R80/7-1984 RT converted and raised compression CC-highflowvalves dual ignition and retared 3-5-degrees ignition timing. What I did not write in my question about high tempratures were that we did get them down in normal range with Omega 777 50W straight racing oil. 35EU + VAT/L. From 140, with omega 757 20W/50 we did get 120-ish with oilcooler and 140-150 without. I have helped one guy changing to 757 20W/50 in his R1100RS - oil consumption dropped and the engine were in fact hard to heat up, and would certainly not overheat. Service intevall on this oil is 40 000km or plus. Price is 25EU + VAT /L So if you can afford this oil - you should not be having any trouble. The mechanics / shops I consult complain about the sticky greasy slippery oil I use - hard to clean without strong detergents. In sweden it is sold by www.smorjteknik.se you can look on internet; search word, Omega and Magna Industrial Inc., Hong Kong. ------------------ Albert Lindberg, D.C. |
I'm not very much into BMW-Technics, but would think anyone should check the thermometer either...
...if THIS IS what is going wrong all the hassle's gone... |
Quote:
I have so far managed to keep it from going over that point by: a) Careful management of where I am (keeping a gap between myself and the vehicles in front and riding the ‘bow wave’ of air from large vehicles such as busses in the next lane; b) On downhill sections in very slow traffic I kill the engine and coast. I believe that the police version of the R bikes have some kind of fan that runs and pumps air through the oil cooler and I was wondering whether these are commercially available. If anyone has any information on where I could get one of those I would be much obliged. Barry P.S. This heat has caused some bubbling of the paint on the rocker covers… |
I've never worked on BMW's, just a motorcycle gear head.
I thought I could add a little thing to it. 1.) Grant may be onto somehting with the gauge. The boiling water method of checking tempurature is very sketchy. Water can be boiling and be warmer than 100 C. IF you under stand the term heat of vaporazation, then you could attempt a better test. HOV definition deleted.... So, stick your temp gauge in the water. Heat the water rapidly. The temp gauge should constantly increase in tempurature. Near the boiling point the temp gauge will stop climbing even though your still adding heat energy to the water. When the temp gauge stops rising, THIS is 100 c. Also be careful of the heat source adding to your reading. IN a beer can , the heat source can also heat your thermometer. So dont let it sit on the bottom. 2.) The other function of the oil cooler is oil reservior. Simply adding an oil reservior will decrease oil temps. So this is another reason I would say leave the cooler on. If nothing else you can carry more oil with a cooler, which is always good. This could be what BMW was thinking. They may have just wanted a reservior, and they said hey, might as well fin it to help dissapate some heat. Thanks, TOdd Bellew |
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