Sleeping bag, not freezer bag.
 

Having just spent gone for a spot of camping, here, in Estonia and hainvb spent the night in a tent pitched on snow, with only a dog for company, I can say that I froze my proverbials off!!!

I have a Mountain Equipment Firewalker II that was is said to have a 15 to -7 comfort rating (on one label), or 15 to 0 on another label. Either way, when sharing the tent with my better half, we slept comfortably at about -2 to-3. This time it was about the same and it was NOT nice!!!

So, looking for WARM sleeping bags (4 season) for use in places like Estonia etc, all year round.

Preferences:

1. Have right and left zip options for zipping bags together
2. Preferably synthetic in case it gets wet on the bike.
3. A decent "-" temp comfort rating
4. Pack relatively small for biking around (relative to other similar bags, not to a 2 season!)
5. Decent price: I cannot afford to shell out £100s of notes. Range between £150 and 200 (€160-220)

Suggestions?

I guess you won't find synthetic bag with these requirements. If there are any these will be big and heavy when packed.
I have The North Face Mammoth, that is rated -7 but I have no wish to go out camping in winter in it. Around here it is good in summer, though. I have used it in near 0C and that is as low as I want to push it (it was cold).
Manufacturers comfort ratings are wishful thinking, IMO. :)

I tried mine out this Monday just gone, in the Nature Reserve, just North of Aegvidu, off the No 13 road: cold!!

You ARE using a pad underneath, right?

I've been using a down bag for the past 3 years - haven't had problems with wet weather yet (a good tent with proper ground cloth is key - a cheap tent, well, they let water in). You can always bail on the camping and find a room if you do get wet - that's easy to do when you've got wheels.

A 2nd, lighter bag that zips open - or even a good down quilt - to throw over the top to use when you are doing it in really cold weather may be a better way to go then getting a limited-use 4-season bag - usually only a functional bag when it is really cold. Great if you are a mountaineer or winter camper - but sort of an oxymoron with motorcycles.

That's my suggestion.

My answer for having a warm winter bag is simply to double up the bag with another. Both are cheapie sacs and I find that to around -5° to -8° its fine. I also wear long u/wear in the sl/bag. And I use a quill type air mattress which is also a cheapie, but actually the smallest , lightest and most effective IMO.
I have a down sac but I now prefer synthetic stuff. When backpacking in winter I used to use my rucsac over my feet and legs ( i.e.over the sl/bag) to boost insulation. You could do this with your bike stuffsac. You can gain a useful few degrees like this.

As an extra, I use a hot water bottle to get me warm when I enter the sac. The bottle is just any old bottle, plastic or glass, which I find lying around, or in a roadside bin. Looks bad if anyone sees you of course. So no need to carry anything extra.

Warmth aside, the long winter nights are the most annoying thing about winter camping; 12-13 hrs in the tent in a Scottish winter were really too much.

I agree about M/facturers ratings - nothing short of lies!

I have a Therma rest mat, and I also laid some of my bike kit under it too. In the case of Monday night putting my Argentine poncho in the bag over me, rather than over the bg as previously was what made the difference between a tolerable night and a very unpleasant one!

Second bag is an option too, I have a lighter summer bag I could use, but then you are loosing space, possibly more than by just carrying a 4 season.

I use a Helsport Raudfjorden (check out Portal - English | Helsport | Portal - English | Helsport) which I've slept in down to -20 centigrades. It's rated to -35. Didn't freeze at all. It has a 90 cm zip which makes it useable even in warm weather. You simply can't get a warm enough sleeping bag, especially when you want to camp in the colder parts of the year.

Thanks!!

in terms of rating and zipping together these seem to tick a lot of the boxes I had in mind. Packed size and weight seem reasonalbe for the specs. Only the price is unknown!!

Down is the only way to go if your criteria involve both warmth and compactness.

As for waterproofness on the bike it should not be a problem. I've carried a down bag on numerous very wet canoe and kayak trips with no issues. Seal it up in a plastic bag and put that inside a serious waterproof canoe/kayak bag with a roll top closure. Not so much as a drop of water ever reached the sleeping bag even during a capsize in a fast moving river.

As for possible tent leakage, my down sleeping bag has a gore-tex shell which makes it very water resistant.

Science solves all problems sooner or later.

Normw

I carry a small plastic tarp that goes inside the tent. It is big enough to lay on and have it wrap around me. Long underwear and socks are a must too.

Hi,

Problem with warm synthetic bags is they are heavy and bulky. Down, IMHO, is far superior and not that difficult to keep dry. I use down bags for hillwalking, ski-touring, motorcycling and canoe camping and I live in Scotland, which is one of the wettest cold places around!

Just keep it stuffed into a good quality dry bag and it will be fine.

A silk liner weighs virtually nothing and makes a bag significantly warmer also.

Try alpkit.com for very competitively priced down bags.

Matt :)

A bit more
 

If you decide on down, then check out Down sleeping bags and down jackets, Alpkit outdoor gear for alpine activities including climbing, camping, mountaineering and trekking. Also remember that air trapped is insulating you from heat loss upwards. To use two bags, one inside the other, they'd have to be stiff enough not to pack down thinner. That means a down bag can't cope with a blanket or other bag thrown over it. In extreme cold eat a bit of carbohydrate so your body can heat itself and run around a bit to warm up then jump into the bag. Bags only insulate , not heat! Linzi.

I struggle with liners. I must be pretty fidgety because I end up all twisted and tied. A clean and dry set of thermals work for me. A woolly hat makes a big difference and well.

The "comfort rating" on my sleeping back is an out and out lie. Or maybe it was tested by a penguin !!

Rectangular or Mummy shape?
 

I am about to buy a new bag.
I have never tried a 'Mummy' shape bag.
They look as though it takes some getting used to and restrict turning.
Any comments?
TIA

Yes, last year I got myself a new synthetic shaped bag. Turning is more difficult. also it seems to insulate better above than below so is obviously more susceptible to compression air loss. it packs smaller. I usually have my sheepsking below me so the underneath cold is not a problem, and i also use a camping bed so off the floor in th eevent of tent leaking ( so far so good my 4/5 year old 15 euro tent has yet to let me down ) I usually also carry a fleecy blanket. which gets used depending on the conditions. around for more heat, under only (doubled) for comfort, or above only with bag below when hot.

The sleeping bag has to be part of a system. I use:

Bubble wrap under tent
Picnic blanket on tent floor
Canvas bed
Thermarest
Ex-British Army arctic spec bag
cheap cotton liner
clean pyjamas, socks and hat.

I can be too warm at minus fifteen using kit that cost under £150 on e-bay. This IMHO is one of the occasions military surplus actually works. You have to remember though that the squadies are expected to cut down branches, break into buildings, dig holes and other activities related to shelter that a civilian traveller would only get away with in a real emergency.

I compare this to my first £150, minus 35 rated commercial bag that was freezing at minus two.

Andy

Really interested pointers so far, and I must say that the Alpkit looks very interesting.

I also looked at Helsport and they, too, look appealing, but the price differnce is over double, and I don't think I can justify that leap in expense. As for the sundry items that go into camping, realisticall I do not want to add to the list of items.

So I'm looking for that bag that will keep me warmin - tmps using the tent footprint, the tent, my therma-rest, my bag and my poncho (although the poncho may serve best under the bag...by the sounds of it).

If this format needs to be doubled for my other half, then we simply don't have room for all that stuff. A bag upgrade is all I really want to do, and possible upgrade to a thicker, longer thermarest type... but no more.

More
 

Hi, with a down bag the bottom of the bag will be packed flat giving next to no insulation from heat loss downwards due to transmission. The answer is a closed cell mat under the self inflating mat. Also Alpkit bags are generously wide for tapered bags-not full-on mummy bags. But down needs to be well aired each day to avoid becoming less effective. Linzi.

Down
 

Down gives much better size/weight/warmness ratio. However I personally don't buy down bags as in my view down is basically like furs, raised to harvest. Do you like fur coats? :helpsmilie:I bet many people who are against furs have never thought about down that way.

Linzi's point about eating is a very good one. We need food to keep us warm as (as Linzi says) sleeping bags only insulate, not heat. Keep a bag of peanut M&Ms or similar next to you to snack on during the night if you get cold. Woolly hat is a good idea too.

Another option is whisky! Actually, consuming alcohol lowers the blood temperature slightly and so should not be taken if there is a real risk of hypothermia. However, in most circumstances it's fine. I always take a hip-flask camping and find a big dram before bed helps me nod off much easier!

Matt :)

I did read a bit about that on the Alpkit website offered earlier. They seem to be trying to offer a more ethically sound down source. I don't support fur, but have no problem with leather, sheepskin, rabbit skin, given that the carcass is also eaten.

I do not know if they birds are eaten but if not, seems a ridiculous waste and more off putting. I also find the thought of live-plucking very unpleasant and distasteful.

Alpkit are loooking into their sources and reporting back (this kind of transparency from a firm is very commendable and definitley instills trust and respect from my point of view: I bet the big brands don't go to that trouble!!).

On the other hand we raise every kind of animals just to eat them or get produce, so basically this down raising is not technically much different, because we can say we need down to survive and that from some aspects is probably true.

100 years ago, I would say yes, this is true, but back then no animal was killed yet not eaten...

Personally, I love the idea of a nice warm down bag, but the thought 20 geese suffereing horribly to fill makes me feel uncomfortable.

If I find an ethical supplier, then fine, otherwise, I may go with synthetic and life with less insulation. It would still be an improvement on my existing 3 season bag... I may investigate this with Alpkit and Helsport...

I didnt know they did that - I don't use down but I certainly never will after reading that.:thumbdown:

I understand that the majority of down producers employ this method, unfortunately.

I remember reading somewhere that they do that several times, birds grow new feathers and they are plucked again. Also, very highly rated are feathers from young birds.

:thumbdown:

The best down is eider down which is removed from used nests, the birds themselves pluck the down to line the nests for their young. Around here geese are plucked after being killed for meat usually in the late autumn, mostly because by then the supply of grass ( their main food) is diminishing. I have no idea what other systems do to obtain down... but it would be very expensive to hand pluck, and you can only machine pluck dead birds, as the process would probably kill them anyway.

I use a sheepskin as an under blanket as I have a camp bed which allows air to circulate under it and that can be cold. I sit on the sheepskin when I am riding, even though it does raise me even higher.

I have a Cumulus Mysterious Traveller. It's 1250g, Polish down, waterproof Pertex cover, and rated to -16. It was about £170.

SLEEPING BAGS - Cumulus down sleeping bags - Technical Summary : very warm, very light

1. We use (since 1991) a pair of down bags that aren't full mummy, but partial or barrel. They zip at the side as usual when used alone, but when opened out, instead of zipping side by side, one goes on top and the other on the bottom. To make it very slick, one is really warm and thick, the other is much lighter - so depending on temperature, thin up or thick up! :) Works a treat!

2. Down not synthetic, as noted by several others.

3. Temp rating is VERY relative - we're a good example - I sleep very cold, Susan very warm. At home I'll have a sheet and a fleece blanket and a down quilt, and Susan will have the fleece and sheet, but not use the down quilt at all! Better too warm than cold, but you can always use a fleece liner if you know it's going to be a cold weather trip. We always use a silk double liner to keep the bags clean so they need much less washing.

4. Down is SO much smaller for the same warmth - also down has a wider "temperature range" than synthetic - in other words, still comfortable warmer and cooler than synthetic.

5. You get what you pay for, and a down bag will outlast several synthetic bags. Get really high quality, high loft down, minimum fill power of 600 and it's amazing stuff.

Grant makes good points regarding down. I've always had synth but that's because down is too expensive for the temp ranges I need. The Helsport I mention earlier in this thread is rather compact for being a high-spec synth sleeping bag, though. I've used it for winter camping in Norway with zero complaints. It cost me something in the area of 200-230 euros, but that's in Norway. I'm sure it'll be half the price in the UK or elsewhere.

Hello Warthog,

I am still trying to get my head around the dog / better half - warmth comments, I'm not 100% sure... but I'm going with the better half not being the doggie right?

Isolating the insulation is the solution, and there are two way that you can improve your current circumstances without resorting to a new sleeping bag.

1> Decent (raised) ground insulation Thermarests, inflatable mattresses etc
2> A Goretex bivi bag, that your sleeping bag goes inside all inside the tent.

Other ways include a waterproof ground sheet with a blanket on top of the ground sheet, underneath the tent base make sure that your flysheet overlaps the ground sheet.
If youre still battling, a blanket draped over the inner tent, underneath the flysheet, easier on A frame type tents

Oh and as for combining sleeping bags with double zippers this doesnt help to keep warm, the "hot thing" inside the sleeping bag with you helps to keep warm.

However I cant help feeling that both your better half and doggie may not like you as much if you continue in your current manner.

Cheers G

Linzi is right. In addition to my thermarest and down sleeping bag I used sometime my sheep skin under my sleeping bag to isolate from the cold ground. It did make a lot of difference.
Sheep sking is great stuff: during the day you ride on it, at night you can use as seat, pillow or to sleep!
And when it was really THAT cold I wrapped myself with a space blanket. Noisy when I moved, I looked like a Xmas cracker but it works great!

Some clarity is needed.

Normally, when camping, my girlfriend and I zip the two bags together to sleep. Up to -2 or 3 ish this has been toasty. I recognise that the best insulation is when you are in your own bag, but this was not necessary on that occassion. We sleep on Thermarests, and bike kit.

On ths night in question, I was camping alone, apart from our dog who came with me. I slept in my bag, atop some bike kit, and a well inflated thermarest. The tent was pitched on snow, on a footprint. It snbowed throughout the night and the tent was covered. I had though that might insulate too... The dog, luckily for her, was just curled up along side me on her sheepskin. I did not try to stuff her into my sleeping bag, although I considered at about 4 am!!

Since then I have also bought a closed cell foam mattress to go under the Thermarest, also... Thankfully it is now about 20-25 degrees!

I am thinking of buying a bvi bag too, but this is not a goretex one. I simply don't have the funds to pay £150, when a PVC one should be as protective and about a fifth of the price... For when I need it, Goretex is OTT.

Coming into overlanding from a mountaineering background I've just kind of carried over all the methods I've used previously.

Down is the only choice for lightness and low weight. Care is needed to keep the bag dry, but is relatively easy. Light condensation etc, if fine, but prolonged dampness is bad. Air the bag every chance you get.
For this reason do not use a pvc bivi bag inside the tent - emergencies only.
A RAB Survival Zone bivi bag is good for this, but will not insulate much. (not cheap either - but very small)

Get a bag with a neck baffle (elastic draw string at neck height) and hood. Uncomfortable the first time you use them, but incredibly effective. If you don't like the feeling of the hood over your head, wear a hat, lots of heat loss comes from the noggin.

All good bags are likely to be mummy shaped - reducing the volume of moving air in the bag increases the warmth. This is the idea behind the silk liner - also very worth while - adds extra warmth for virtually no weight (keeps the bag clean too). I bought a length of horrible coloured silk from a sari shop in Sheffield and sewed up two sides. Voila, silk liner for a fiver.

I've been using a Mountain Equipment Dragon Classic 800 for about 5 years now. - not the lightest bag, but cheap (relatively) and effective.
I bought mine form 'Magic Mountain' the Mountain Equipment factory outlet in Glossop, UK. Cost me about £50(!) They have a constantly changing stock, so keep trying them. They also have a massive summer and winter sale at the factory just down the road for two days a year - also worth trying if you're able to get to it...

Thermarest is excellent idea - should be all you need ground insulation wise.
Food before sleeping is also essential. As is keeping well hydrated. Keeps the blood thin and circulating.
If I'm cold before getting into my bag at night, e.g. just put up the tent, sweat starting to congeal on the skin - I run around for a while to warm up before getting into the bag.

At the end of the day one cold night will feel pretty cold whatever you do, a week of them and you start not to notice it!

Sorry for the long post - spent a large part of my life so far working in climbing/outdoor gear shops!

Personally, I hate narrow bags despite their supposed superior performance.