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Chicago to Panama end of November. MX Safety?
Hello folks. Tim here from Chicago. I plan to ride a Triumph 800 Tiger from Chicago via St Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, Dallas, San Diego, then down the west coast of MX to Guatemala. I have been to Guatemala all over 3 weeks and really just want hit the highlands and Nebaj areas, friends in Atitlan, then down to E.S for some surf around El Tunco, possibly Sochitoto, then to spend time in Nicaragua, mainly the north as I have done the south by bus. I have been to Honduras for scuba diving Bay Islands, so plan to skip it and maybe get bike on a cargo boat across Bay Fronseca to Polasi Nica and then inland from there to Sandanista/Estelli areas... Costa Rica have a lot of friends but have been there a zillion times, so want to head to Panama and check it out, maybe go down Pacific side and back up caribe side to CR.
I have 8 weeks, a rush I know, as I have to get back to Chicago. I was thinking of going up east coast of MX after a little Yucatan ruins (been to Tikal but, not Livingston/Rio Dulce or Tulum). Whats your thoughts on this grand plan? Is 6-8 days in MX on west coast too fast? What issues/dangers/areas I should avoid? |
You are joking, right?
You are from Chicago and you are somehow worried about safety in Mexico? Your government and media parroting your government spreads a lot of BS about Mexico, in fact, msny governments and media outlets do this. You will find Mexico totally different than what you have heard. I can also recommend a good place for Triumph servicing. If you happen to be in the southeast of Mexico, I can send you a free ride guide in PDF format for this area rnd perhaps meet up with you. I live here and have done so permanently since 1993, ride daily, and know the area on and off road since 1978. Riding solo here, I feel safer than I would riding in any US city. Sitting in a bar here I feel safer than watching Batman in a Colorado movie theatre. Read motorcycle journalist Graham Field's take on Mexico in the latest issue of Overland magazine. I get passionate about this because the US president and his attorney general thought it was a great idea to send more illegal US weapons here. I dont like guns, I dont think Mexico needed them. The good news is that Mexican people wont hold that against you. What will surprise you is how much better you will be treated here in Mexico than in your own country. |
I am currently on my first moto trip to Central America. I left the pan handle of Florida in early July. I am currently in Xela (Quetzaltenango, Guatemala) to study Spanish. I originally scheduled two weeks here and i am still here after six weeks. This is a very cool place and i don't want to leave. As for Mexico, I spent about two weeks there making my way to down the eastern side through the Sierra Madre Oriental. Very cool riding. And, Mike is right. The people in Mexico are great and many will go out of their way to help you and treat you like family. All of my friends in the States thought i was crazy and told me i wouldn't make it past the boarder. Nothing could be further from the truth. The commentary in the US about Central America makes me angry. Again, as Mike said, check the crime statistics of any fair sized city in the US any you'll will find they are as bad as any city in Central America. Why is it that Americans are oblivious to this. How about last week when the Australian baseball player residing in the Oklahoma on a scholarship was shot in the back and killed by three young thugs. When asked why they did it, there answer was for the fun of it. And, that was a middle class small town. If i were a parent in the US i would be afraid to sent my kids to school, because there have been so many shootings across America. I can make a good case that the US is the most dangerous place in the world. I could go on, but.....
Enjoy your trip and i'll be in Costa Rica in November for and extended period. Feel free to get in touch if you are passing through. |
+1 on all MikeMike and Astockjoc say
I am also puzzled by the way you are trying to pick and avoid all those places . Get used to the idea that you are on a MOTORCYCLE,:scooter: not a globe hopping helicopter or a travel video where you can skip or fast forward past the bits you don't care for.If you can't bear that then maybe get back into bus travel :rolleyes2: If you have been there as often as you say then you really by now should have a fair understanding of travel in these countries and little need for our advice. As for putting the bike on a freighter across the Gulf of Fonseca .... why ? The whole operation would probably be more time and trouble than the short ride around. Not trying to be mean or nasty , just expressing my thoughts |
I felt safe in Mexico. The State Department travel advisories suggested you keep to the toll roads but we felt safe everywhere. Your more likely to have your pocket picked in Paris France. Maybe you want to avoid some rough neighborhoods just like you would do at home. I did go to Kinko's and have them make a plastic wrapped color copy of my drivers license and it and some expired credit cards went into a duplicate wallet with a days supply of money. I kept the real wallet buried deep. But I do this everywhere I travel. I used the copy of my drivers license (duplicate wallet) everywhere even at borders, Dave
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Tim you've been around long enough to know how this works. Asking how dangerous it is is the same here as over on the TT: we all chime in to tell you not to worry, that Chicago's worse, that you should carry a mugger's wallet..... Then we tell you how unrealistic and altogether rushed your trip is going to be and how much better off you'll feel if you limit your plans to a trip appropriate for the amount of time you've got. Since you've posted the same stuff at least thousands of times on the TT, and since you asked here once previously, I'm left to wonder: why are you really asking? What do you hope to hear differently?
Your schedule is within the realm of possibility for a dedicated rider. The fact that it's going to be impractical, unsafe, uncomfortable, and won't be much fun even at its best had better be irrelevant to you. If so, go for it. If not, find another plan. If you ignore the advice universally given here, it won't be the end of the world. Six weeks is a reasonable, hurried, one-way trip, so four weeks just means being 50% faster, more efficient, or more focussed. By all means post back here to tell us you had plenty of time, found the whole thing relaxing, fought off bandits wherever you went, and are relieved to be back in familiar, safe and secure Chicago (in February, huh). Mark |
Mark
What is the TT forum you mentioned ? Thanks Steve |
TT = Thorntree, the oft-maligned Lonely Planet travel forums.
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Okay folks I appreciate the advice, the main reason I was wanting on the ground info on MX was there is not a lot of current trip reports and it is a big country compared to all the others in CA.
As for the cargo boat across the gulf of Fronseca from El Salvador to Nicaragua, the price is $50 for a bike I last heard, though the boat is not daily. Can someone suggest a Baja/West Coast route over two weeks to Guatemala, and a East coast/Gulf side route? I am struggling to get a plan, as I am coming from New Orleans, Texas to Cali is lot longer than just going south, but I am dying to check out the coast/baja area... I have family in Dallas, and was thinking of leaving my cold weather gear there, and getting on way back in Feb. I also have family in San Diego, and could leave it there and UPS it to Dallas so its there on my way back.. Thanks everyone, I just need to get MX figured out...:mchappy: |
There are a ton of ride reports from Mexico over on the ADV forum.
You have more to worry about in Washington than you do in Mexico. I wonder when the last time was some authority issued a travel warning for the USA? |
No worries mate.
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I speak no Mex Spanish. Not once, not even close to once, did I have a problem. I was met by gracious people, kindness, good fun, fantastic and varied scenery, gorgeous beaches, good roads (although some tolls were expensive), cheap prices and cold beer. I made the mistake of spending only 4 weeks there. |
I concur that Mexico is not the criminal wasteland that the media purports it to be. Having said that , I just met an ex- Juarez resident in the Copper Canyon area who moved his family there after seeing, in his words, at least 20 murder victims including kids and women over the course of his living there. It was time to get out he said. Poor agricultural workers are co-opted by the gangs and paid to kill, which he said they do with zero hesitation to get ahead. Food for thought.. caution is better than fear. BTW anyone currently near Mazatlan and headed south to Guat as of Nov 26?
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I would worry more about getting from Chicago to Mexico than what laid south of the border. I am along the Baja for the winter, Mexicans are generally some of the nicest people I have met. Not so greedy like the gringos to the north. I don't loiter at the border though, I still think it is a good idea to hover near the border, cross early in the morning then head on down the road. I try not to stay within 100 miles of the border
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Even staying in the border towns need present no hazard and I make a fair habit of doing so.Last year I slept in El Paso Texas ,only because it was early evening already and a dust storm was raging ,too late to go into Juarez to get a room which I was planning on.. Later that year I slept very well in Matamoros before leaving Mexico and this year likewise I slept in the border towns of Nuevo Laredo ,Tecate, San Luis Rio Colorado and Reynosa.Over the years I have done this in most Mexican border towns. Never had a worry about my safety by staying off the streets late at night . Night time is for getting restful sleep. .. then :scooter:
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Mexico is not dangerous. I'm English and lived in Mexico (though for 4 months only) as well as visiting the States a few times. Americans seem to have an innate fear of Mexico. Hollywood and your media tell outrageous lies :)
Whilst Mexico does have a terrible problem with drug cartels, as a foreigner you would be very unlikely to encounter this, and if you did it'd be bad luck rather than you being targeted. The vast majority of Meixcans I encountered were extremely friendly, welcoming and just really cool people in general. It is by far the most hospitable country I have visited, and you can add laid-back, outgoing and vibrant to that as well. Most of the bad traveller tales I heard came from Central America and not Mexico. Not that central America is particular dangerous for a gringo but you must exercise caution there. Apart from a city in Panama that has a very had reputation, I never felt threatened in central America. That said, I was quite cautious and avoided going out at night, etc. Mexico by comparison, I went everywhere and walked around at night. Never any problems at all. Highly recommended! |
yup
I had great experiences in Mexico. That said, 40,000+ drug war related deaths om the past 5 years does get one's attention. It is also a very big country and the statistics need to be put into proportion to the size. I have traveled the length of Mexico four times, each journey was without incident (ok, some transit cops in Tampico made a weak attempt at shaking me down and got nada. Just calmly hold your ground...) The hype about Mexico contributed to my passing through fairly quickly, but I always have some ridiculous schedule driving me. I need professional advice about that...
As I approached Mexico last time I was really looking forward to arriving because the country has it act together more than most south of the US border. Sure, you got drink bottled water and the roads aren't always great in places, but the roads on average are way better than LOTS of countries in Latin America. And in general the Internet service doesn't suck. My advice, avoid the west coast. Without doing through research, it seems there are more problems in north-western Mexico. I have always ridden the eastern portion, never a problem. |
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Yes, the USA is a large country and statistics need to be put into proportion. See where this is going? Your Department of Homeland Security has made weak attempts at lecturing me as to my personal safety. You can say "no" to bribing a policeman in Mexico, however, if you say "no" to a bully in a US government uniform, you either do not get into the USA nor will you fly. See where this is going? I live in Mexico and ride here daily. I do not need anymore American guns finding their way here condoned by the American government, thank you. There have been only a few incidents of violence related to visiting motorcyclists that I am aware of. And that is through constant contact with riders and keeping an ear to the rumours that spread. I do know of instances of thefts and violence related to motorcyclists visiting the USA. Mexico is as safe as you want to make it. In twenty years of living and riding here on and off road, I can tell you that it is safer than a lot of Americans have been to told to believe. Sorry Peter, I don't mean to offend you, I am just borrowing your point of view but looking at another nation. |
Peter actually expresses a positive supportive opinion Mexico being
safe enough for travel even for" Americans" .A bit of doubt still exists for him about the safety of northwest Mexico . Okay Peter , put your mind at rest about that region . That area too is quite okay to ride in using the same common sense you explained for successful and enjoyable travel in the rest of Mexico .Been there , done that. |
the numbers
A little searching returned some interesting findings. First, I want to sign off on US / Mexico safety comparison by saying there are sections of many cities in either country that I would not stop or slow down for that matter. I have specific or general ideas of which cities and neighborhoods are to be avoided in the US, but where are the high risk areas in Mexico? I really like Mexico and will continue to recommend visiting it. Further, I believe the vast majority of the problems are gang/gang or gang/police violence. Would I hang out in the Bronx, NYC, Camden, NJ or South Central LA, no. Have I driven on highways through all of them, yes. The take away is to understand when to be more on guard and possibly route planning. Don't let risk stop you, but ignoring risk is not a good idea.
I would submit that we have a habit of making general statements based on our individual experience. Large sets of data often tell a different tale and can show patterns. Take the data or leave it, your choice. If you are interested in reducing risk, then minimize you time in the areas with a history of violence or consider alternate routes. A gut feeling told me that eastern Mexico has few incidents of crime and violence. My search today revealed there are several hot spots in eastern Mexico: TAMPICO, VERACRUZ, MONTERREY and towns all along the US/MX border have a long history of problems, including Matamoros, Reynosa, and Nuevo Laredo. Take a look at the maps below, turn your head slightly and squint. I think you'll agree there are more big and small hot spots in central and western of Mexico. The data makes a case that riders should avoid or pass quickly through some cities. The first two have particularly bad reputations: JUÁREZ, METRO CHIHUAHUA, METRO TIJUANA, METRO CULIACÁN-NAVOLATO, METRO NOGALES, SONORA LA LAGUNA, METRO SAN FERNANDO, TAMAULIPAS MEXICO CITY, METRO GUADALAJARA, METRO ACAPULCO, METRO TAMPICO, METRO VERACRUZ, METRO MONTERREY, METRO The maps below are linked to other websites, so they may disappear in time or become outdated. Google "Mexico violence map" as needed. Diego Valle has several projects on his blog www.diegovalle.net including analysis: Drug War in Mexico and Crime in Mexico. Drug War in Mexico http://www.diegovalle.net/images/dru...nteractive.png Preview image above. Follow the link for more info and detail: http://www.diegovalle.net/narcomap Crime in Mexico http://www.diegovalle.net/images/crime-interactive.jpg Preview image above. Follow the link for more info and detail: Crime in Mexico Data is from 2012 for the map below. Source: Mexican drug war: Waves of violence | The Economist http://cdn.static-economist.com/site...png?1353601636 Data is from 2008. Patterns change, but this still might be useful as a general guide to hot spots. Source: Statistical Analysis and Visualization of the Drug War in Mexico | Diego Valle's Blog http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_q3Caf3YFFA...s1600/2008.png |
Peter, I've lived and ridden in Veracruz for 20 years.
You can post all the "data" you want. If you want to see the pictures of what homes look like with over 200 rounds from AK-47's I can post those if you like. How about a Holiday Inn with bullet holes in it? Maybe 30+ bodies dumped in front of a shopping mall at 5pm in the afternoon? All of those happened within a kilometer radius of my house. The same house where I park my bike in the garage, and where I arrive and depart from on a daily basis. Ask any of the visiting ADV riders that have dropped by and those who have stayed with me if they ever once felt it to be unsafe. Now, your data doesn't do jack for me, Peter. It also does a disservice to riders for a couple of reasons. First, it is out of date and has no bearing on what riding in Mexico is like today. Second, the risk is directly related to your involvement with the narco trade. Yes, it is possible for innocent people to get caught in a cross-fire, or injured due to a stray bullet. No question about that. But I have been living here permanently, riding both on and off road, have seen the aftermath of many events, and have never once felt that it would make this area unsafe for a visiting ADV rider or for myself. Third, you have no understanding of the events that unfold to make an area unsafe and what you should look for or be aware of. That requires being able to communicate effectively and efficiently with the locals, understanding that a lot of what you read in the press is total BS, being able to ask the right questions, and knowing alternate routes in and out of areas. All of which a visiting ADV rider does not have to burden themselves with because they are passing through. They might linger for a day or two, but I doubt they will be attending an illegal horse race, a cock fight, or hitting the bars where the knife and gun clubs meet on a weekly basis. Can you imagine how much fun you would have deciphering data for Chicago? Or maybe putting up maps that show the domiciles of known sex offenders and felons? All of that info is available for the USA. You would never post that because you know full well that the risk that a visiting ADV rider would encounter a problem is miniscule. You also know that riders use common sense and can judge that, based on their line of work, contacts, and associates, they don't have much to fear from organized crime or organized gangs in the USA. I don't plan my routes through the USA based on known gang violence, drive by shootings, massacres by psychopaths and postal employees etc..., if I did it would take forever to get anywhere. Since I happen to live in one of your self-described trouble areas, aka Veracruz, how am I supposed to go to work, go shopping, go to the movies, enjoy a beer with my friends, let alone ride my bike solo through areas that are not even on a map? I've never met a person who has a handle on data who can answer that question for me. Maybe you will be the first, give it a shot. I would really like to hear your solution to my "problem" of being in an area that your data says is dangerous. Reality is the most important thing. Same for reality based wheels on the ground information. Outdated statistics from American sources are of absolutely no use to me nor anyone else. As I have stated previously, the US government knowingly sent highly dangerous firearms into the country where my family and I live. What would be of use to me would be to see those responsible for that to be held accountable and face justice to ensure that it would never happen again. The chances of that happening are about the same as a visiting ADV rider having any real issues here and not a case of the heebie jeebies and jumping to conclusions because someone playing norteno music in a blacked out pick up truck happened to be following them at a high rate of speed on a highway. Narcos? Well, maybe, but maybe a successful rancher on his way home from a night on the town with his wife pissed off at him, maybe some mariachis late for an event, maybe a politician showing off his new ride, maybe a kid who finally got to drive his old man's wheels, etc... If you are going to give someone information, give them something they can actually use. Something like, say, for example there was a problem here the other night next to a funeral home in a suburb at around 10:30pm in a parking lot. Now for some reality. How many visiting riders are going to be in a parking lot next to a funeral home at 10:30pm on a week night in a neighborhood that is an industrial zone bordering on a residential area with no hotels, no bars, no gas stations, and no tourist attractions? That many, huh? If you don't speak, read, and converse with locals in Spanish, you have no idea of what is really going on here. The worst offenders of this are usually large broadcasting outlets that serve a nation in English.:thumbdown: |
Not to be an alarmist but.....
yesterday rode across into dodgy Chihuahua state - was riding the winding mountain road between parque nacional cascada del basasechi and San Juanita on the way to Creel adn the Copper Canyon when i came around the corner to be confronted by four men in (scruffy) military fatigues, balaclavas and machine guns - shit. i knew instantly they was bandititos rather than real military as they were all wearing Nike trainers and had no vehicle with them. it was so unexpected i foolishly turned off the engine and stopped - they said they were doing a check but luckily i'd locked all my boxes and had my (useless piece of shit) phone in a pocket rather than on display above the dash as i usually had it. they asked where my camera was but i told them it had dropped out of the mount which they seemed to believe, i siad my three amigos were following behind me soon too. I used my superb skills at pretending to be an ignorant gringo tourist incapable of speaking hardly any spanish whatsoever whilst appearing totally oblivious to what they were really up to with a big gormless grin on my face. They had a good chuckle at my attempts to stall them with 'Soy de ingleterra','Me gusta Mexico, es bonita', 'No me gusta los druggs, soy profesor' and 'soy muy guapo en me identifaction, si?'. after 10mins or so a local van came spluttering up the hill behind me and i knew they couldnt do anything so i said 'adios amigos' and sped off delighted that they had failed miserably in attempting to rob me. a very lucky escape indeed. Another story of cultural immersion to tell the future grandkids! but i won't let one bad incident ruin my perception of the entire country - otheriwse meixcans have been very friendly, helpful and polite. id say if you do get stopped unexpectedly like this is just play ignorant, speak appallingly bad spanish and pretend not to understand what theyre saying, smile like an idiot, let them laugh at you, lock all your boxes, tell them your companenoes are just behind you, dont get off the bike, have a dummy wallet,and generally stay calm and stall the **** out of them as even the quietest roads will have a vehicle that comes along eventually and prevent them from doing anything violent. im on a tiger 800xc and its holding up nicely so far after 25,000miles in four and a half months, started in alaska. dont let people who know jack shit scare you away from going, the things that go wrong are always the best stories you get to tell, as long as you survive, and if you don't it wont matter anyway as youll be dead. but at least you'll never have to go to work again if that happens! hope your trip goes well. |
I'll be riding from Edmonton Alberta Canada to Ushuaia in Sept 2014. MikeMike, don't have enough posts to PM you yet, but would like info on your region.
Thanks Garry Amazing Ride For MS | 2 Continents, 1 mission, End MS FOREVER |
Gary, I speak northern Ontario Canuck dialect fluently. We 'll have no difficulty communicating. I will try to get in touch with you later in the day.
Regarding the incident described earlier by the Triumph rider, there are some side notes about the time and place that should be taken into account. |
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First, if they had been serious about you and your bike, you would not have been posting what you did. You didn't "stall them" they simply were curious about you. Second, armed rural defense groups made up of pissed off locals against the narcos are more and more common. Few state governments will admit they exist, I have come across them twice in the past year. Third, read what I said in the second point, again. Being confronted by armed and masked groups in remote locations is not as unnerving as you think if you know and understand why they are there and are anticipating meeting up with them. How did I know? Well, the state police detained me and warned me on both occasions about the road I was going on and took my data and told me to watch out for the bad guys. The bad guys? LOL! In Mexico, sometimes the bad guys are the good guys, and knowing this goes a long way to your personal safety. The armed vigilantes I encountered were protecting themselves from corrupt state police who were extorting money and goods from the campesinos. The area was a hot area, a week before, the campesinos had taken police officers hostage, burned one of the vechicles and pushed the other over a cliff. They also took the negotiator hostage who was sent in to get the cops released. Unless visiting riders speak the language, understand the local politics, and are familiar with the players in the game, they won't understand the situation. The police stop probably would have prevented them from going further and ruined an excellent day's riding. Fourth, the simple fact that they were not immediately aggressive with you, forcing you off the bike at gunpoint, demonstrating physical violence, means they were either local armed vigilantes or simply protecting a known narco zone and maybe shaking down some pochos returning from the USA loaded down with Christmas items and maybe some good used vehicles. Exactly like the one that pulled up behind you, you got that part right! You were of no serious interest to them, you were a novelty, if you were not, you would be missing, left with nothing, or dead. I really admire your attitude about not letting people scare you away from Mexico, and I imagine you are really enjoying riding here. If you are going to be in the Puebla or Veracruz area, let me know if you need anything. Or if you want some interesting routes.:mchappy: |
i just didnt want to be shaken down - which i'm pretty certain is what they wanted to do or why would they have asked me where my camera was?, that was my main concern. this trip has already cost half my life savings so buying a new phone, camera and computer, plus losing all my photos would have been pretty gutting.
the following day in Parral a policeman asked me where i was going, i said the hotel acosta - he promptly stopped traffic and walked me to it and insisted the lady should let me park the bike in the hotel lobby, then the parking attendant near the museo Pancho Villa said i didnt have to pay for parking, finally the following day an old guy on a kawasaki scooter guided me through th back streets out of town to the road to Durango after 'chatting' enthusiastically about my trip. all of which restored my faith in humanity and reminded me how great 99% of mexicans are. might see you in Veracruz! viva mexico! |
The camera might have been them checking you might have taken pictures of something you shouldn't have or you were about to.
Stop by if you are nearby. There is a very good Triumph dealer in Puebla in case you need anything. |
Got the address of the triumph dealer in pueblo, please? Done a few searches but mexican addresses dont seem to post well into google map even the ones from the triumph webiste
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