soft luggage requirements survey
 

I have started researching and am considering starting a small UK business producing a strong, waterproof and high quality soft luggage system. I am in the early stages of design and development and have a number of various materials and design options. The bags design would be fairly simple but with features revolving around the overland market. From the list of options I have below it would be good to get feedback as to what end users may require and I will try to incorporate all reasonable features into the design. Please help me along with your views but remember I will be a small producer. I have listed various features I hope to incorporate into the bags - If you can let me know what you feel is the important stuff by choosing any of the features I have listed in order they appeal to you. Also mention anything you think is not worth the bother -Then add any further comments you feel relevant.

A) roll top, 30 + litre capacity, carry handles
B) Full supporting webbing straps around the complete bag (ie not just stitched onto an anchor point)
C) Cordura exterior material with pvc internal membrane.
D) at extra cost fireproof,waterproof,kevlar anti slash cordura type material military grade stuff (this is expensive material made in UK) but can be an option available)
E) stainless steel fittings and buckles
or
F) plastic fittings and buckles
G) Panniers lockable at buckles and wire loops integrated to facilitate locking bags to bike.
H) Separate support harness to fit to bike
I) two exterior pockets for bottles and a mesh front pocket for stuffing bits and pieces in.
J) Attachments for separate small under-slung removable bag (for tools or waterproofs etc.
H) bags longer and not so deep ie suitcase shape
or
I) more box (standard) pannier shape.
J) extra internal pockets - to keep papers etc seperate or external waterproof pocket (if design allows)
K)some degree of custom design service -ie extra pockets fixing points straps etc etc.(at a cost)
J) What do you feel a reasonable cost would be for this type of Pannier system... be realistic
I am trying to see if this is a viable and profitable business and would hope to be producing market ready panniers early next spring.
Thanks for any feedback
Jake.

Good plan Jake

If you can come up with something along the lines of the Andy Strapz throw-overs (which are fantastic) but with some decent built-in security so you don't have to faff about with Pac-safes etc, that would do it for me.


http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...a/IMG_0255.jpg

That would be great! Not so much for theft prevention, but more for not opening an instant yard sale after the inevitable road spill.

Hi - not so sure about your version of the ALPHABET :confused1:


My ideal bag would be:

water/weather proof
secure lockable to bike - maybe a tough wrap-a-round cover with cable
hard wearing/durable in a spill
and dirt cheap :innocent:

I am prepared to trial one of your products for free if its of any help :cool4:

And patchable/repairable to cover abrasions, holes etc to restore some semblance of waterproofness and to prevent tyre levers slipping out of holes!

Good idea Jake. I'll watch - you know my experiences of hard luggage. Hard!

To me one of the challenges with soft luggage is keeping it securely fastened to the bike. IMHO Velcro provides a great solution.

For instance many soft luggage systems will have two wide fabric straps, connecting the two bags, that go over the seat (or at least one over the seat, and the other semi beneath a top luggage rack. I would think about fastening Velcro to the underside of the more forward of the two wide fabric straps.

And then, supply a wide Velcro strip that goes over the seat and fastens beneath it (like with a staple gun). Adhesive Velcro would help keep it snug on the seat but may leave some gluey residue/discoloration.

So, you have a Velcro lock for the luggage atop the seat. It would be wide and lengthy and you get zero movement left to right / right to left ... and of course it comes right apart with a tug.

I did this as a custom job with my Wolfman soft panniers on a DR650 and it worked great.

Oh yeah I would definitely want waterproof material standard in the product. Few things suck worse than soaked luggage... Good luck with your venture. :thumbup1:

Would it be worth making them fit well with say the touratech pannier brackets to provide a well known good support? Then you don't need to worry about designing that bit as well from the start, and anyone who already has tt panniers and wants the option of soft stuff or doesn't like the ally ones they have can swap to your bags easily? Broadens your market for less cost? ;)

Reflective stuff would be good too?

Good luck with this :thumbup1:

I like metal buckles etc. because they don't fail. I like plastic ones because they can still be undone with cold hands when the straps are soaking. I'd suggest using both plastic and stainless as needs must? Maybe stainless for the luggage to bike and (replacable without cutting them off) plastic to secure rain flaps etc?

Making them a size/shape to fit pannier loops is a good plan. Touratech, Hepco and Becker and Metal Mule loops are so similar it'll make no odds to your design if that helps. You need the bag to bag straps to be long enough to go over a bike with frames fitted, that's where a lot of soft luggage I've tried has failed, they assumed seat width only.

The stuff I've made for myself I like to give straps so they can be used as flight/hotel/backpacking luggage too. I try and avoid extra straps that get in the way, rather I sew on extra fastenings to convert from bike mode to walking mode. No daft little plastic wheels in the bottom though please :thumbdown:.

I'd ask that the bottle holders be designed round pop bottle type containers as well as Sigg bottles? Beer and whisky bottles then fit by default :innocent:

Can we have colour coded buckles or something? I get hacked off when I load the panniers in the tent, place the wrong way round on the bike and spend all day looking in the left side for what's in the right. Green buckles on the right, red on the left?

Can we have the means to secure excess lengths of strap? I hate trailing bits but won't cut them off as the next bike is bound to be wider/taller/fatter somewhere.

Can't wait to see the results.:D

Andy

Edit to add: IMHO Price is a tough one. I havn't bought anything for years except MOD castoffs. IMHO every single item in the TT catalogue is overpriced full stop, M&P stuff is overpriced for what you get. I'd pay £100 for a really top class pair of panniers with maybe an extra 30 for the bullet proof lining thing. Above this and I'll modify Army bags. Now I don't think I'm your key market, I think you can pitch between M&P and TT prices so long as the quality and design is off the scale. Once that actor or his mate use a pair, then you can charge £500 a set. I think you need to very very carefully pick the right RTW rider and give a pair away where you'll get some positive feedback here, on ADVrider, on GS club etc. Look how Metal Mule took off, five years ago they were undercutting and outperforming TT. Now you pay for what you get (and then some).

It may have been done...

murchison panniers


John

It was late at night after a long day and I must be dyslexic ! sorry

Sounds like interesting kit; are any of the abrasion resistant materials also more or less "knife-proof"? Even if the bags are locked to the bike, I'd be reluctant to use them if someone could just slice them open with a knife and take what they want. Pacsafe and similar are an option but kind of a pain.

Might it be possible to incorporate a Pacsafe type mesh within the fabric or lining and also on the mounting loops that attach to frame?

I realise this is all pushing up the cost as well as the bulk of the bags.

That would be a cool solution, but have to think it would greatly increase the manufacturing cost, and I wondered if some of the new wonder fabrics (kevlar?) might also be very hard to cut?

Just to let you know My initial plan was to build in pac safe type of mesh - this is the ideal security solution - but I am finding it very hard to find a supplier of the mesh wire system - but am still looking and if I can find it it will be top of my list to fit. Also I have tried several kevlar materials however I am finding them disappointing in actual tests. Even the best one that has been given rave reviews by the manufacturer (at £45.00 meter) is just not up to the job and has failed some of the high abrasion and cut tests that I would want it to pass for an exterior layer. However still working at getting the right combination of materials so just bare with me and keep your requirements coming in and I will try to pool the ideas into one quality and affordable product.
Many thanks for the feedback so far
jake.

Incorporating a slash proof layer unseen within layers of material would still result in the tough outer being slashed if someone was going to?! I would think it would have to remain visible to be a deterent, but making how it opened and sealed up again to work with the bags lid perhaps?

Hi Jake, have you tought of "stabproof" material? For what I saw in photos in google, some seem very light. Some are kevlar based but not all. Maybe worth a look?
Here is an example:

Stab-proof materials Stab-proof CN;BEI products

If you can produce bags that are secured and won't spill all over the place when dropping the bike, you will get a winner! I hope you succeed!
I use now Andyz soft panniers but it is, as mentioned by others, an absolute pain to faff around with packsafe mesh!

Good luck with your search!

Maria

Hi Maria ta for the comments - Hows the tipi still serving you well I hope. As for the stab proof material I have had several different types some very expensive others not so, however they are designed for a totally different application and will easily resist a slash from very very sharp knife - what they will not do will resist a slow force cutting action all have failed high abrasion tests and cutting tests. I am currently talking to the company in Hong Kong who make pac safe to try to get some pac safe mesh built to fit into the build of the panniers.
regards jake

You could try and look into the working clothes made for forest workers. They are chainsaw proof !!

Mesh is working in tension to prevent cutting, the strands support each other. In an abrasive "attack" a single strand can be ground down. The slow cut prevents the other strands moving to support. The engineer in me says consider a more plate like material. I'd be thinking something like a medieval jack, it's a leather jacket with small plates of metal sewn on. The leather (mesh) is good in tension against cutting attacks, the plates spread blunt forces and help stop sharp objects getting a purchase. Don't forget any "armour" relies on it's backing, give the mesh freedom to flow and move but in a supported way and it'll be stronger than if it's held in place too much.

I hope you can find a commercial material as it avoids a hideous amount of work, but failing that maybe think plastic/ceramic/foil "plates" in the layers? Simple hard plastic corners could really help IMHO, but it is a while since I was doing "squaddie proof" stuff.

Andy

The material in chainsaw pants is designed to clog up the chain and stop it as quickly as possible .

so like Harley panniers, but with so many studs you can't actually see the leather?!

That opens up a whole new market, matching whips, chaps etc ;)

Once again thanks for the comments - the facts are that all panniers be it alloy boxes or soft luggage are not really secure almost any alloy box can be opened and or removed from the bike with little effort and very basic tools the alloy boxes have the mental impact that they are strong fortresses to protect all that you have but at the end of the day they are simply a box with a lock on that in most cases a knife or screwdriver will break open. As for soft luggage it is not so different it can be cut / removed / opened however if i can add a simple deterent to make it a little more difficult to just walk away with them or open or access the luggage then really that seems to be the limit that can be achieved. I can not go down the road of super secure armoured panniers there is no real point - I also have to try to keep real these are soft luggage with as much build quality and strength I can design in but there are limitations - so far the pac safe mesh system seems to be about the most versatile / secure and simple system that I can find - the problem is production quantities they are willing to supply at and if it can be done within a costing that these poorly funded travellers are willing to pay.
Still the research continues Tchus Jake.

Great idea Jake.

Must be waterproof, roll top closure, steel - lockable buckles, perhaps an 'easy attach' mechanism for pannier rail mounting (with optional, detachable shoulder straps to make a rucksack), extra abrasion resistant material at potential contact points.

Slash proof material would be a bonus - don't some curtain-siders (wagon trailers) have a HD slash proof material - slash theft is a big problem for hauliers.

Phil

How about having mesh only built in to the backing of the bags on the side against the bike and exposed everywhere else? When I used pacsafe on a bag on the back of my bike it rubbed against the bag so much it developed a hole. Laminating a mesh between layers of rubber on the back and exposing it on the front could provide visual deterrence factor and protection from rubbing holes in the material or scratching the bike.
Just a thought...

The slash proof curtain sides have been checked out - very heavy duty and difficult to work into a pannier construction - you need serious investment in the gear to make welds that will last in the pannier application (heat gun welds are not strong enough - you need a press and die heated sytem to form shapes and secure welds). As for exposing mesh in places and not on the backs I can see where your coming from but try and design that into a buildable design becomes very complex but I will look into it. However so far pac safe exomesh don't seem to be interested in supplying unless I make a massive order which would be impossible for me to do - further research needed at present.
Cheers Jake.

I think the slash proof system although great would force you costs up by a huge amount and maybe price them out of the average buyers reach.

A simple roll top locking system and a way of locking the bags to the bike should be enough and would make the bags better than whats already available.

If people want the exomesh style security maybe this could be offered as an optional extra.

Just my 2 pences worth but if I am having to put pannier frames on the bike I figure I may as well go with hard luggage. Kinda defeats the object of keeping things light.:scooter:

An alternative solution?
 

Perhaps a compromise would be to deal with some of the drawbacks that a pacsafe present. I've never used one but I think that perhaps some attachment points built into the back and underside of the panniers might help. Also, some way of storing a pacsafe on the outside of the pannier so it's ready for use instantly might be good. Perhaps a 'pacsafe pocket' or something. This would keep the cost down, especially for those who may not be interested in pacsafe type security anyway.

Geoff
(Pigford, please check this message for spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. :innocent: )

Geoff, it's OK, you just need a sense of humour check :smartass:

All the ideas you proposed seem sound and worthwhile, certainly any material that makes the panniers more resistent to damage be it accidental or malicious.

As optional extras, have you considered offering the sort of padding and arrange-it-yourself, velcro supporting, compartments that are used in camera bags? Perhaps not through out, but in a given section as required by the customer.

Although a pannier is not the safest, nor most practical place for a camera, most travellers do take a camera of some sort with them, and some more than one.

It may be that in certain cases tankbag space is not available...

The built in "pacsafe" style security would be brilliant and make your product really stand out in a competative market !! :thumbup1:

Put it on the outside so its obvious..

BIG, STRONG ZIPS are a must. So many bags fail due to this. Obviously have zippers you can use with gloves on.

Rivited & sown bags add to the strengh.

A heat proof section would be great too..

I think you need to decide if you want to make and sell bags to overlanders (it works but might not look great) or make bags for the "wanna be" 1200GS owners who want it to just look pretty and hardcore.

Like in all good designs... FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION !! Not vice versa.


I would love some bags like you're talking about to be available and British made. I'd buy some as long as you don't go down the Metal "fool" pricing plans ! :innocent:

Best of luck and I hope it works out.

Ted

HI Ted, thanks very much for the support and views I really do want to produce a high quality, strong and secure overland system Made in England - with the versatility to be adapted at manufacturing point to customer requirements, not aimed at the dressing up market market they will always opt for alloy I think, Its really quite hard putting together a product like this - as I am finding out, sourcing and testing materials, design, costing out of time / materials etc then the suppliers want to deal in large quantities to get the prices down. All then has to be put together to have some future in it that I can actually make some sort of living in the future from it . Got to be honest Its not looking too good as a viable business at the moment as I can not get the costing down enough to make the end product viable. If I was just making a few sets for one off's it would be quite simple but to try and turn out enough to make a profit looks very very foggy indeed. I am however still hopeful of getting something together and seeing how it goes - but we will see how many hills there are to climb after I reach the top of this one - seems Ive lost my way in the fog at the moment and the snow seems damn deep for the rest of the climb !.:frown:

Best regards Jake.

I admire your effort but also am not optimistic for a high-end, niche product at a reasonable price...if it were easy, I think someone would have done it already. Good luck and keep us posted!

Jake, rather than trying to 'go big' straight away, it may pay to produce a quality product in low volumes & let the market take it from there, I believe that there is an opening in the (European*) market for a product like this - just how big it is who knows......

Phil

* The Australian/US markets already have their own versions of this sort of thing.

Good luck anyway

Your probably just better off making a few rough prototypes. Try to get some kind of patent and then sell the design for a % (Dragons Den type of thing)...

It doesnt have to be that difficult... Use materials already tried and tested on the market. You dont need NASA stuff for travelling..

Leather, Cordura etc... I think what will make yours great as it will be designed just for Overland bikes, not having to accomodate sports bikes, street bikes and not have to look really pretty so catalogues etc.

Start off with a set of Ortlieb or Andystrapz bags and look to improve rather them rather than totally redesign. Use other companies leg work in the base product.

Rivit the weak points, change the zips, sew on extras, introduce heat proof sections on it and especially try and get a custom fitted protective mesh around it.

How far you get depends on your commitment. Doesnt have to cost the earth and if you get a few decent prototypes, you could sell them to cover the initial costs for "round 2".

As for costing...

Set of good bags are £150-£200. 2x pacsafes add £120 to this.. So if can get them made for under £300 then you're already competetive !!

Hi Ted, shandydrinker and Motorieter, I think we are all thinking along the same lines here and the ideas and suggestions you are making are exactly along the lines I was initially wanting and am trying to put together. I hope to pull it off but there are quite a lot of hidden costs that you start to find out about when you start putting them together - this has a knock on effect, I also need to sink a good few bob into this once I start - still I will in any case be making the prototypes soon in the new year and see how they work out. All the ideas are coming together fairly well but making them work in a manufacturing process is like I say similar to wading through deep snow in the fog - uphill - so onwards and upwards - hope there is a pub at the top.

Pigford, that was my sense of humour! :eek3:

Geoff

If you can a SS netting on the top bottom out side and frunt and back and heat resistance inner side will go a long way, a kevlar shell for rips and rubbing on long trips. A inner liner that is waterproof or a waterproof inner bag.

Do your self a favor and do not go cheap you can not out compete the cheap bags that are out now. Go better not cheaper. You can remake the soft bag, a full remake not just a rebuild, copping some bag you have now. Longer, flatter, down low, hard points, straps that are held down not flapping in the wind, straps and velcro that look like there made to hold up not off some kids school bag. Make a bag that dose not just stand out but stands alone. For Ideas look at militay bags and knoe there made for walking speed go tuffer.

After that a top bag and some small bags to hold all you junk in your bags.

Just to let people know the score on the panniers following the survey, i have made the decision to start making the panniers and have researched an awful lot of materials and various designs. The panniers are specific design for the overland/ adventure market I have further been discussing ideas with a very well know and respected Adventure / Overland traveller and together we have come up with several design and size solutions. The panniers will be roll top design ,38 lts each side, built in security to lock the panniers closed and also to lock them to the bike. (I am also looking at the viability of fixings on the bag to allow pacsafe SB mesh bags to be fitted and supported on the bags in a semi permanent fitting system ( but easily unclipped and removed when needed) -this still needs a bit more work. The Materials used are top quality specification and not like any other pannier sytem I have seen. there is provision for two 1 ltr bottles as well as 2 camelback water carrier pouch, heat proof backs with a rubberised kevlar material which is highly resistant to abrasion, water, oil etc and very hard wearing, multi layered waterproof build quality. Fixings and fittings will be in metal not plastic.They will also be versatile in as much each pannier can be used as a rucksack / or shoulder bag - as well as having a detachable section that can be used as a lightweight day backpack for day out riding away from campsite. I am hoping to have prototypes finished in the next month and after testing. The bags would be best suited to be used with a standard rack which allows the panniers to be held in the best position as well as away from wheel or exhaust contact. Prices are to be worked out but combination of very high quality materials and fittings along with the fact that they are made here in England not in a five pound a day sweatshop in the third world dictates the prices which will be at the higher end of the soft luggage price range but still considerably less than any hard luggage system. Once they are ready I will be advertising them through This site along with a well known overland team site. I will keep everyone updated when progress past the prototype has gone and I am able to cost out the actual production time.

I've bought wire products from this company Woven Slings,woven wire rope slings
They seem to be able to do miraculous things with ss wire. Maybe they could sort you out with security mesh.

Thanks for the link to the wire company I will speak to them in the next day or so. However so far with most companies I have found that for custom made or small production runs of things the price becomes very high or there is no interest at all in. I will see what they say thanks very much.

i can testify that woven kevlar is a bitch to cut with a knife or scissors, but it would probably end up costing more than putting a pacsafe type mesh between two of the layers.

Hi Dave, I have found its almost not possible to make the bags with a material that can not be cut, i have used a kevlar based product in the bags build for protection from abrasion and heat (the kevlar is resistant to burning or melting to 160 degreesC). But I have decided to go down the road of adding a security wire to lock the bags shut and to lock the bags to the bike. I feel this is adequate as the way the bag is designed it will stop pilfering, However I have made the bags so that the size is compatible with a Pacsafe product and will offer as an option (extra cost) a pacsafe bag set of fittings which will mean that a pacsafe net can be fitted and secured to the bag in such a way that the back of the pacsafe net will not rub on bodywork and the net will be secured to the main pannier so it can be left in situ and still allow access to the bag. I am still developing this at the moment but it will be available when I release the bags for sale.

one further question for everyone - on the rear of the bags will be two bottle carriers, what would be the preferred option as a standard fit ?
2 x 1 lt bottle carriers,Or larger bottle carriers or 2 x 2ltr plastic jerry can holders or a mix of one of each on each bag.
The bags have built in (1) storage pouch per bag on the front edge for an ortlieb 2 litre water bag so that gives 4 litres water capacity-before adding the bottles on the back.

1 X 2l plastic can (black square type) 1 X 1l round bottle (MSR size) i'm in, will be glad to get rid of these ali boxes.
Are you only doing one size? 38l is way to big for me, would be lokking for more like 25l
Pete

Hi Pete I hope to develop a smaller bag also to use on smaller bikes or as tank panniers but this is not a priority as there are plenty of options available from the likes of Ortlieb and various other companies.

I favour being able to carry both extra water and extra fuel, or even better, being able to have all of one or all of the other.

Geoff

none for me, stuff like that has "steal me" written all over it

Some Ideas, Perspectives
 

This is an uphill battle for sure. If you look at how some other companies work you see that the initial design and prototyping are done in the US, UK, Germany, Italy or where ever the home company operates from.

Once designers have got a product to a certain stage and have had feed back from staff, experts, travelers and the like, they then go back and make improvements and make arrangements for production and cost it out.

If the project is Green lighted, then at this point they typically send the whole project to China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Vietnam or Croatia. Deals are stuck, prototyping begins (again) and once the principles sign off on the final design, major production begins.

Like you have said, most larger companies engage in huge production numbers. Really hard to compete with that when just starting out.

Look at a company like Klim. This is a small US based outdoor gear company that a few years ago got into Motorcycle apparel. They did Snow Board/Ski stuff before that. Very crowded market. Their strategy was to sponsor high profile Adventure Riders on the ADV rider forum, sponsor and partner with KTM and get the stuff out to key MC people in the media, on the forums, get visibility in Rallies and other popular events. They already had success doing this in the Snow Board world. Same basic formula.

Now Klim are into helmets (they don't make any of them, they only design the graphics, all Chinese made). Their off road riding apparel is doing pretty well it seems and is becoming known internationally, in big rallies, and is used by "famous" and well known world travelers and now even average riders are buying the stuff in droves. (some post here)

ADV rider has a claimed regular readership of about 100,000. (500,000 members, not all active) Nothing to sneeze at! Remember, they also have a Vendors forum there and reach 100 times the riders as HUBB.

All of Klim's gear is made overseas, not in the USA. They now make Jerseys, Enduro jackets, gloves, Enduro pants, Helmets and who knows what else by now.

If you feel you have a good design that is really new and a breakthrough, first of all, try to patent it. ($$ good luck with that! $$). Then perhaps approach a company like Klim that is expanding their line every year, getting into new products constantly and growing. Just a thought.

Look at US companies like Tour Master and First Gear. Both make not only riding apparel but also soft luggage, tank bags, and the like. You could approach them (very carefully) with your idea and hope they don't simply steal your design. "Selling" your design to them would be tough and risky, but if it's really good, they will know it and may partner with you to produce it .... most likely in China or India. :eek3:

Keep in mind, the RTW Adventure/Dual Sport/Traveler motorcycle community is a tiny spec when ALL riders are looked at. We are probably less than 3% overall. They will be wanting a product that appeals to a broader range of riders. Can't blame them I guess.

But there is a niche here, just not a very deep one. One thing to consider is how cheap Brit RTW riders are. :smartass: One look at Sam Manicom will verify this. (I've read his books ... and no, I didn't pay for them! :tt2:

It's very unlikely your product will ever be made in the UK unless you open your own work shop. But Andy Goldfine did it and look at him now!
(Aerostich)

The USA used to have a booming garment industry. I saw it first hand growing up in L.A. We've thrown it all away for profits for a few big international companies who exploit .10 cent an hour workers in the 3rd world working in conditions that would be illegal here. But that is another thread, another story.

You have to decide what you can morally put up with.

Hi Mickey thanks for your comments and input. However I am not into mass produced, profit only manufacturing. I really don't think this product would justify such a large marketplace and I also prefer to keep the build in house, where quality control,customer specified changes and constant improvements and revisions can be built into the system - therein lies I believe one of its selling points. I think Keeping it British, using as I am German and UK manufactured quality materials help with a quality product are much more important to me and hopefully my customers. Here in the UK we have a large tradition - which is coming back into favour of Cottage industry that supports local workers and suppliers - ethically and morally these are important factors in my business plan. I realize other people do things other ways but global industries are not for me.
Best regards Jake.

PS Mickey, Sam Manicom is a friend, along with being a real and genuine Gentleman. I feel it is a pity you could not have contributed to his work/income/effort of which he lives off by writing - by way of buying his books. Not that Sam would voice such a thought he is far to pleasant to do so.

While you said this in a very nice way, I don't agree at all that we have some kind of obligation to contribute to his income--what is wrong with getting the book from a library, or borrowing it from a friend?? Why on earth should I feel compelled to buy someone's book?

I agree with you that you don't need to buy the book and as you say borrow it from a friend or library - that's fine - i have lent my copy of his books to friends no problem. But Mickey makes it a point of his statement that ... no he didn't pay for them - which is an unnecassary addition to having read the book, it sort of implies a negative within the statement.
It may have been more appropriate to just say I read Sam Manicoms book.
Still it is of little consequence - I simply think in a nice way it is where possible good to try and support the people that do the work and try to make a living when we gain knowledge/entertainment/enjoyment etc of their experiences.
Nothings compulsory here - If I had meant it in a nasty way then I would have said so and been more direct indeed. (Thus you mention I said it in a very nice way - as that is how it was meant)
Sorry if I have upset anyones sensibilities and apologise forthwith.
Tchus Jake.

You have some very admirable ideals for your business plan. Great to hear Cottage industries are reemerging in the UK. Nothing better than supporting your local community. I saw this working in the Italian shoe industry (Ancona) when I was there doing documentary work for the Harvard Business School/Fortune magazine. I've done many shows for them world wide.

So how many units do you want to sell each year? 6 sets? 100 sets? I think you'll find that the market in the UK is very small, no matter how good the product is. Spreading the word by word of mouth can work but takes time.
How much have you got? I assume you want to make some profit, at some point? Or would you give it all to charity? I assume you would use Union workers and pay all their benefits as well. (I am an Union member myself and very pro-Union) If you care about your workers dignity, I'd assume you'd pay them a living wage? Do they make all the best materials you would need in the UK? How are those costs?

I tried to show you a few different approaches to kick starting your effort.
Maybe you missed my example of Andy Goldfine? Do you know who he is?
Do you have any idea what his business is? Based on your very egalitarian ideals, I'd take a lesson from Andy if I were you. He started out in a very similar manner with similar ideals.

Another example:
Wolfman in Colorado is another small, independent company built from the ground up by a couple people. Here is their latest product. Notice the special being offered now. Buy the bags and you get the racks FREE!

Wolfman Motorcycle Luggage

Wolfman Motorcycle Luggage

Wolfman Motorcycle Luggage

I found one of his books in a Hostel in Guatemala, another a friend lent me .... never asked for it back! (Distant Suns) Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Have you ever seen Sam buy a round for the boys? Or for anyone? Seems like when Sam travels he is only on the receiving end of things: Free drinks, meals, lodging, bodging on his BMW. But never returns the favor. This from sources who met him in S. America, and I'm putting this in very polite terms. Word is he is so cheap, he squeaks. :cool4:

I could actually kind of "feel" this in his writing. I've never met him but won't be buying anymore of his books. Quite a bit of marketing Chutzpah to publish a book about a ride that happened ten years ago. :rofl:

It's not surprising, given that he's probably on a limited budget because not enough people buy his books...but anyway, let's get back to the rather interesting topic of adventure950's proposed luggage, so for diverting this thread off track...

Hi Mickey, once again thanks for the links to see how the business have set up I will follow them up and see what you mean, It seems that you are well informed in the business world, where as I am really am not so - on the scale you talk about, although I have worked for myself for many years this has been in a different industry with totally different objectives. I Think it is very nice of you to point me in the direction of some of the small set ups who have grown into the various names and to see how I am going to do whatever. Really its great but for the moment though I have to learn to walk in this business never mind run I have a long way to go in finding my feet and before that I have to have my prototypes tested and any problems that come to light ironed out That is where I am at now. I believe the luggage will work as I hope and yes I may need to source materials else where. But if you look at smaller companies likes of Andy strapz, Iron pony and Metal mule they all started very small to get their products right in the first place. It will be some time before I get to the mass market stage. I have however already sourced a small manufacturer here in the uk who makes luggage for the MOD (armed forces) who would be willing to manufacture the bags on my behalf - but like everything that has a cost implication something I do not need to sort out yet. Please don't feel I was being bombastic towards you I was not and I am very grateful for opinions and advice on this forum - that is why I asked for it. As for Sam we will have to differ in viewpoints i think - I have seen Sam buying rounds of Drinks when I have been in his company and paying his way at the table buying food and so on. I think the hearsay of his scrouge like qualities may have been exaggerated - but many travellers are on very tight budgets and need to live off tiny amounts of cash or do without things. I know when I first rode my bike through America in the late 70's I was actually reasonably well financed during my travels but it was hard if not impossible to spend money, buy a round or a meal when in company of many of the American people who I met, they would not hear of it - I was a guest of them and they would not let me pay for anything try as I may. I think maybe it would be good to leave Sam out of any further talk here we know of him from very different paths in life. With Best regards Jake.

Hi mickey looked at the links great luggage and rack system. Excellent. Cheers.

Hi adventure950, how is the developing and testing going, any news about the bags, and possible release dates?

Thanks and I hope that you'll get the bags done :thumbup1:

been looking for a set of tank panniers for a while for carrying waterproofs a bit of food and maybe a waterbottle is the anything planed would rather buy a british made product a mini vertion of the rear panniers would be ideal

Its been great to get all this feedback and interest. Although I made several prototypes the last set were pretty near to what I wanted -so I thought but they failed in a few areas under evaluation and I have had to start re designing these fail points. Development takes for ever !. In doing so I have run out of both finances and steam to carry the project forward at this time and have shelved the project until I can pull in some other work to make a living and pay my way for a while. Otherwise I will sink financially before the project is ready for sale. I am also looking at an alternative material as Its almost impossible for me to get the costing down on this product and since the change in value of the pound / Euro the material costs on one of the material products (made in Germany has risen by 20%) soon we will also have a rise in VAT to add to that - Like Mickey D told me from the beginning maybe the only way is to go to Asia to make them cost effective - I naively pushed that train of thought aside as it is something I am not willing to do but the reality is that appears the way to make products cheaply, I am still not willing to go that route so am stuck at the moment. So sorry to say do not hold your breath it will be at earliest next year if I get this product gets going and to be honest I am starting to lose the plot a bit with it. I will come back to everyone if and when I make further in roads on the next stage of development, production and costing. Thanks for the encouragement and interest. Jake.

Jake,
Just remember its your ideas and designs that really count. Where a product is made gets political. I admire you're honorable intentions to do a UK based product. But as you found out, ain't easy. And the fact is your countrymen won't drop everything to support you. We see the same here in the USA.

I learned a bit about this from two long time friends in the luggage and bag business. You may have heard of them:

RKA Products Page

I've known Richard since about '92. He was one of our first advertisers.
They've really struggled in the last five years. Almost went out of business, but some how hung on. Barely breathing.

RevPack Soft Luggage for the Motorcycle Touring Enthusiast.
Jim Reverly and his wife have been making good gear for decades. Once again, small business and very tough going. Also long time advertiser, now neither of these two can afford an Ad.

Jim owns property in Central California. We've been camping and partying there for over 20 years.
Songdog Ranch; camping facilities, rallies, music & rural life enthusiasts.

Songdog Ranch is just North of Santa Barbara, CA. Just a bit too close to L.A. for me, but a beautiful area none the less and world famous among motorcycle touring riders.