bigger intercoolers for tdis
 

Apart from the cost and the extra component to break, would these be recommended for overlanding without reservation?
It seems like they lower combustion temps which can't be bad.
Overall, do they improve the mpg or do they make it worse?
Would not that extra torque shag the transmission sooner?
AFAIKT, they sound like as neat a solution as turbos were, only simpler.

thanks for your input.

Ch

Chris, I would`nt look at it as an extra component, just a bigger version of an origional companent, yes they might provide more power, but it really is like an increase in torque not just a huge wapping power increase, handy for the long hills when heavily loaded, as for tweaking the fuel and boost pressure I dont know the answer on this for the long term, the larger I/C cools the charge(A good thing), but when you start increasing fuel and boost you will pick up extra power but also increase EGT, so for a long term overland trip I would`nt be sure on this on.

Without doubt, I would contact Richard Turner, at Turner Engineering, he provides the occasional feed back on the LRE and on offroaders rant forum, as well as being renowner in the bussiness as an authority on LR engines, he is very pro standard on his engines and rebuilt so many that over the years that he KNOWS what goes on inside STD and modified LR engines. He also seems very please to genuinely help people, not just sell things to make a profit.

http://www.turner-engineering.co.uk/

Col Campbell

[This message has been edited by Col Campbell (edited 02 December 2003).]

i run with a larger intercooler on my 300Tdi 90. i also run with slightly increased boost and fuelling. although the larger intercooler doesn't seem to give "seat of the pants" extra power (you can achieve the same increase of power just by winding the boost and fuel up with a stock intercooler) its nice to know that i'm being "kind" to my engine by keeping the EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temparatures) down and avoiding melting the piston crowns.

Hi Chris,

Although on paper an intercooler looks like a splendid idea and almost something for nothing, in reality it isn't quite so. To make a noticeable difference, the intercoler has to be big and efficient enough. This is normally achieved by water cooling. An extra cooling circuit is one more thing to break (or leak as most liquid containers fitted to Landrovers). Besides, such an intercooler sitting in front of the engine radiator restricts air flow. Cooler air, hotter engine, what's better - go figure ... A small intercooler can be fitted in other locations, but its effect on performance is always relative to the heat exchanging efficiency.

As they rely mainly on the passage of air through the radiator, intercoolers are more efficient at higher speeds. The extra torque Col mentiones would be handy at the bottom end of the engine performance curve, so again, not a real gain to make a big difference.

A more efficient engine = lower fuel consumption. Again, on paper it sounds right, but if you have all this power on tap, you must be a scrumpy old git not to use it, so don't expect miracles at the pump.

Finally, if the intercooler lowers EGT it is on condition that you use the same amount of fuel which - due to more air being squeezed into the combustion chamber - is now burnt more efficiently. See the previous argument whether the amount of fuel will really remain the same. Or perhaps you give it more boot, hence burn more fuel to make the engine work harder, which brings us round to where we started.

Having said that, I wish to point out that any vehicle is only as good as the sum of parts of which it is built. Making improvements in one department doesn't make other parts preform better. In fact, it often makes it worse (after two turbos blown out due to playing with injection pump and boost settings, I can claim some expertise.)

This is why, having gone down this route myself, I settled the score by swapping a 300Tdi engined LR for a 4.2L 1HDT Landcruiser. I can't even notice it has no intercooler, just as I could not notice the Landrover had one.

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

I have an Allisport intercooler fitted on my 300TDI. Spent a fair amount of time checking round whether it would be a good idea or not because much as I wanted improved performance, I didn't want to achieve it at the expense of reliability. However from everything I could gather, if one sticks to a basic replacement intercooler, then it functions exactly the same way as the origonal, it doesn't have more parts to go wrong and it simply works more efficiently. It provides a noticable improvement in performance but you have to look for it, its definitely not a radical change. The main useful change is between about 40 - 70 where the increased torque is particularly useful when overtaking , etc. Makes it a bit easier to use. Have steered clear of the other modifications such as increasing boost on the turbo because of concerns about reliability.

Roman, can you elaborate on you turbo problems, was it to much boost that led to their demise and if so do you set them up by trail and error or with a pressure gauge.

And with your fuel, did you play with fuel settings with an EGT gauge fitted.

Col

What's up, is there nothing good on telly tonight? ;-))

"if one sticks to a basic replacement intercooler, then it functions exactly the same way as the origonal, it doesn't have more parts to go wrong"

This is true (I did not realise LRs already had an ic - or as Romans says - could not tell). But the fact that it needs airflow and blocks the water rad is also a good point

As for meddling with turbo boost pressures - this is a risk with any desert car, even a TLC. The guy I'm thinking of didnt even get from Milan to Marseille before it blew up - and that was a IHDT. (he was a bit flash. so serves him right)

To me big engines are the obvious choice for the desert but I'm just trying to investigate ways of getting more poke from an LR and it seems bigger ics work well. I drove Toby S's 200 in the desert and it was not like any 200 I'd driven before. And for the desert extra torque is most desirable.

The question remains tho, will it shag out the parts downstream quicker? I suppose the answer is yes.

Ch

Chris, I`d say no, as the rest of the drive train is essentially the same as a TD5s and they have a good deal more grunt than a TDI anyway, and they seem to take the power OK.

On the cooling front, I`d prefer to uprate the rad from a 3 to 5 core, so that will help the engine a little more, and anyway I look at it, a cooler charge equates to more efficiency, I`m an aircraft engineer by trade and everything I`ve ever learnt about engines is about altitude, temperature and density, and increasing the charge density does inprove efficiency, agreed if you use the extra power you will burn more fuel, but cruising along from point to point your MPG must improve, and yes at lower speeds you wont get the full added power, but on those long hills not having to change down gears quite so readily when heavily loaded has to be a bonus, the only possible downside I could see is that the turbo might be working a bit harder with the extra air it is now able to push into the engine, but I think that is looking into it a bit to deeply.

Chris any external info you get regaurding this I`d be interested to hear, before the new book comes out.

And yes it certainly is a big tick in the Tojo box have a nice big lazy engine, where you don`t have to worry about all this bollox, pity they can`t quite match the LR fuel consumption.

Col

>"....I`d say no, as the rest of the drive train is essentially the same as a TD5s"

OK, good point. I had a feeling the the broadness of the increase made it less severe anyway.

> "pity they can`t quite match the LR fuel consumption."

You know that's what I used to think (or believe what I read) but I'm rewriting the book on that subject based on my LR travels since edn 1. Sorry to go on but it is just not true in my experience in the desert.

Ch

We fitted an Allisport intercooler to our 300Tdi, after lots of soul-searching. There´s no such thing as a free lunch, and of course a bigger charge of air increases power and torque with all the attendant increases in stress on the engine and transmission.

However, there is quite a lot of room for power increases, the 300Tdi is hardly the most stressed engine ever, and the power increase isn´t phenomenal. It is noticeable, though, on our vehicle. Post-turbo temperatures can soar to 130degC, and a good intercooler brings this back down close to ambient (shedding 80% of the turbo heat is achievable).

We left the boost alone, just adjusted the fuel dosage to allow for the increased air. As a result, at low revs when the turbo isn´t "on", if I floor it, it belches quite a bit of black smoke.

Fuel consumption is marginally better *at the same performance levels*. But it uses a lot more fuel when I do choose to use the extra power.

On the whole, I am happy with the decision, so far. In the desert, it is handy to have the extra power when you need it. And most often, we trundle along with just that little bit less throttle than we would have needed without the intercooler.

Incidentally, the intercooler isn´t water cooled, it´s air-on-air (more efficient for our type of vehicles), as are the standard Land Rover ones. So the worst consequence of a *bad* leak would be a bit of a drop in turbo pressure.

There is no downside to the principle of an intercooler as far as I can see, the only real question is whether it´s worth uprating the existing one. For a few hundred quid, mine was worth it. I made sure that the replacement was a drop-in - no modifications necessary, and an original can be put back if something goes wrong (or if I want to).

The air flow through the intercooler and over the engine rad is more than sufficient to keep the thermostat partially closed, even in the summer saharan sand, so I don´t think the engine temperature itself is affected.

Hope this helps,

Michael...


[This message has been edited by SandyM (edited 04 December 2003).]

[This message has been edited by SandyM (edited 04 December 2003).]

Am just having an intercooler fitted in my 300Tdi so have appreciated the various points made.

Picking up on Roman's point re turbos. Is there any merit in fitting a "Turbo Guard" on a 300Tdi (basically a small oil sump which drains into the turbos once you switch the engine off).

Finally leaving the intercooler question to on side. Has anyone tried swapping their 200 or 300 Tdi with the new TGV H.S 2.8 diesel built by International in Brazil. It sounds like the ideal (though expensive) solution to really giving your Land Rover the power it deserves. A shame its not a straight swap though.

Re: engine swaps. Has anyone considered fitting one of the Mercedes CDI engines as found in Sprinter vans?

I drove a medium wheel base Sprinter (311 CDI) from Oxford to Milan to Hamburg & back again, with at least 1,000kg on board, in addition to myself & two passengers. At 80mph on the motorway, you could put your foot down & still accelerate. Sticking at 80-85mph gave a consistent 26-28mpg.

I believe the CDI designation means it was a common rail diesel (without a turbo). I mightily impressed with its all round performance, having been used to old Transits & Bedford CF's. I've no idea how this on-road performance would work out in off-road conditions or what the spares availability is like once off the beaten track - just an idea?

Steve

Hi guys,
CTC,

If you mean the one sold by Agriemach, it's manufactured by a small company in Trinidad or suchlike. Looks like a good idea but has one potential pitfall - as it sits in the middle of the oil circulation path , if it fails due to a crack in the oil lines or otherwise, you will have more to worry about than just the turbo.

Re engine swaps: I had such ideas some time in the past. Search the forum for a tread about Isuzu engines.

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

I have heard though the grapevine that you can pick up one of the 2.8 Engines for around 1000 USD, by going direct to the source in Brazil, plus the added shipping costs, VAT etc, if you had a few people interested you could probably get the shipping cost down a little to.

Col

Point taken re the Agrimach turbo guard something to watch! One question though, on some turbo engines you can hear the turbo's whizzing round after you switch the engine off (if of course you dont let the engine idle for a while). However on the Land Rover engines (300Tdi)I cant ever hear the turbos. Why is this?

Col, interesting re prices for the International engine in Brazil, much as it would be fun to order a container of them I have not got the shreddies or need at present. If / when the 300Tdi finally dies a death I'll certainly look into it.

Changing boost on interooler install is normally only done for 200 Tdi's to bring them up to match a 300tdi (from .8 bar to 1 bar) (Allisport process)

The intercooler is a course core so it does not constrict the cooling to the radiator unduly, if your really worried then put an ali radiator in too :-)

Playing with the boost and fuelling without a larger intercooler is probabily the recipe for blown turbos and hotter engines as roman has found.

The 2.8 TGV seems to be a good swap - they are available and bearmach are now a suppliers for engines and parts.

Not sure about this 1000 USD deal - as thats about 3800 off the real price ! I have spoken to the engine manufacturers and they are not that cheap ex factory

As for turbo's - I have always allowed my turbos to spin down before switching off (only 15-30 seconds)

I hear the turbo on mine - but then I sit ontop of my 300tdi - and boy would i like one of those 2.8's for Tiggurr



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Rich
LR101 300Tdi Ambi 'Tiggurr'

Rich, not being a turbo expert, I am curious to know if anyone can expand on raising to boost on a 200TDI from 0.8 to 1.0 bar, the 300 has a different turbo than the 200, so my querry is can the 200 turbo reliably produce this extra boost, as I am wondering if the 300 has a larger turbo alowing it to run at 1.0 instead of 0.8 as on the 200TDI.

If both turbo`s are of the same capacity, well there should be no problems, but if the 200 turbo is smaller making it do the work of the 300s then there is the potential for doing as Roman has done to his.

Hope this make sense

Col

Hi Col

Cannot give a straight technical answer as Andy has gone skiing so you'll have to have my non technical one about differences between 200 & 300 Turbos and that is that this has always been done to 200's comming out of the workshops and it has never produced a problem - i'll post again on this once I get a detailed answer early Jan



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Rich
LR101 300Tdi Ambi 'Tiggurr'

Thanks Rich, I`m also going to contact Turner Engineering for their view on the subject, as I`m in two minds of what to do to my 200TDI 110, when I upgrade the intercooler I`d like to up the boost, but not if it is going to effect the reliability, if I stuff a turbo in the UK, its an inconvenience, if it happens in the middle of know where it`s going to a lot bigger inconvenience than having that extra bit of power.

Col

Well, just got off the phone after making a few enquiries and a bit more research, and have come to the conclussion, that there should be no real problems with a minor tweak of the boost and a bit extra fuel, and most people will get away with cranking up the boost for the extra power, but the impression I got was for reliability go for a minor tweak for saftey`s sake and if you do go any further install an EGT gauge so you can keep a track of whats really going on in there and back off or de-tune your engine to a stage where the EGT margin is`nt pushed to far.

There are also reliable gains to be had of 8-10HP with some minor porting of the cylinder head, to allow it to breath a bit free`er, with out any danger of engine damage.

So to sum up my views on it all for a bit of extra power with out compramising reliability in the middle of know where, would be if budget allows, is a bit of head work, bigger intercooler and a minor boost and fuel increase, and instal an EGT gauge if you are going to go any further. I also think that with the extra bit of power it may help the rest of the drive line a bit by not having to trash the thing through the gears quite as much to keep the thing going.

Col

So Col,

after researching the work is there anyone who can do the lot - ie gas flowed head and intercooler plus adjustments?

re Intercooler have seen good reports from alisport and twisted animations and re the gas flowed head - turner.

Any comments?

I hav`tn spoken to any one who can do every thing together, but when our bank account allows, they will be the companies we`ll be using.

Col

[This message has been edited by Col Campbell (edited 06 January 2004).]

Col,
Want more power - read this:

http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubb...b=5&o=0&fpart=

I hope things do not go pear shaped for you.

HNY 2004 to all!

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

Thanks Roman, I read that thread ages ago, but will go through it again when I get time, but to me that all seems very hit and miss, doing every thing by smoke screems etc, if I had the equipment to test my boost p/x before and after adjustments I`d consider giving it a go, but in all honesty I`d like an EGT gauge fitted before I get to carried away and know what boost p/x is there, not just by guessing.

BTW can you give us a brief run down on what you had done to your Disco?

Col

Col,

Correct me if I am wrong but a DIY job like this (even if done by someone else) is always very h&m , particularly that you are trying to enhance performance without being able to assess long term effects and have no or little comparative data to pour over.

EGT is an indicator of an unwanted process and tells you roughly where the red line is, but how can you guess to what degree the position if the sender affects the readings, having only one engine to experiment on? How do you assess performance? At the start of the trip when you are loaded with hundreds of pounds of fuel and water, or at the end when you are running on empty tanks?

Generally speaking, the more error margin is built into the design, the more reliable though less exciting is its performance. Would you set of in a nitro charged LR knowing the engine can die on you every time you perform a spectacular charge up the dune?

In my LR I had the cylinder head machined to increase the flow, a different injection pump membrane spring and a higher fuel to air ration setting. Also, the turbo boost was increased by ca 50%. Perhaps it worked for others but it surely didn't work for me. The job was done by a guy called Warwick Banks who at one time gained some fame with his performance products, then dissapeared from the scene due to a lawsuit or two when his creations started going pop.

My problems could be due to this or they could be due to something else, I will never be able to tell. So I reasoned like this: if I wanted to stick with a 300Tdi, I would have to accept its performance as a compromise. Alternatively, I could swap the LR engine for soemthing else, like an Isuzu or Daihatsu (some gain in reliability but little in performance terms). I could also try a V8, or a different vehicle altogether. This way I would at least be dealing with known quantities.

I'd be interested to know how you are doing in the future.

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited 08 January 2004).]

OK,

Given you comments re tweaking your engine outside normal parametres, is changing the cylinder head the least intrusive performance enhancing option?

Hello ctc,
Hmmm, IMHO the least intrusive performance enhancing option is pointing the car downhil with the wind. ;-) When you tweak one setting, you need to consider the weakest link. Manufacturers do make various tweaks to their engines without major redesign, but then they have the facilities to test the concept for thousands of hours under various conditions. My point is: non-intrusive DIY options create less risk but it's hard to say if they are worth taking if you look at the price - performace side.

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited 08 January 2004).]

Roman, thanks for your run down, I have to agree with you on a lot of points there.

For all of this hastle and money for a little extra gain, is it really worth the effort, 375 quid for an extra 8-10hp, definatley worth it if the head had to come off any way, but on a good engine it is probably marginal, the bigger intercooler has to be a bonus any way I look at it, and a small tweak of the boost and fueling should have no real adverse effect, theory any way, I must admit I`m not after any desert racer, just a bit more torque to help a heavy vehicle along without having to thrash it.

I hav`nt got the money to dive into any of this just yet, but as things come along I`ll keep you updated.

I must say I`ve enjoyed this thread, its made me think a little and do a bit of research.

Thanks to all involved.

Col

I caught up with Andy and asked him about the difference in Turbos between 200 and 300 tdi's

The answer was not a lot apart from the castings for the different mounting arrangements

No 200 turbo upped from .8 to 1.0 bar has caused Andy a problem AS LONG AS ITS BEEN DONE ALONG WITH THE INSTALLATION OF A LARGER INTERCOOLER

Have posted this forum to andy of allisport and he'll hopefully comment directly


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Rich
LR101 300Tdi Ambi 'Tiggurr'

I came across Warick Banks by chance and was discussing upgrades for Tdi's.

He recommends machining the head such that pockets are formed to swirl gases. He also advises various adjustments to the fuel pump. He sells reconfigured pumps for 500GBP.

Interstingly he does not rate the intercooler option (only better for top end)or better porting on the cylinder head (not important for a turbo diesel)!

I have to say keeping the engine standard is looking more and more attractive and certainly a cheaper option! Everyone you ask has a different take on the subject.

[This message has been edited by ctc (edited 26 January 2004).]

I had the head of my 2.5 petrol 110 replaced with a Turner Engineering gas flowed head for a few extra horses. It made little difference. But worse, it was impossible to make the valve gear/camshaft/tappets run quietly. I was informed that all the bits have been disturbed' so this is what I should expect. I have been using the same guy who did the job for about 10 years and he knows what he's talking about believe me. I should have heeded his original advice not to do the job.

I now have a 300 tdi in the 110, but if I were looking for more power I would either avoid the harder parts of the desert - especially dunes - or definitely go for a VX80 Land Cruiser (non electronic if poss). There's plenty around for about 10-12k. Don't waste time trying to uprate small engines, you need a BIG capacity engine - there's no other way - ok. Other choices might be a Toyota Colorado, which do well though a bit flimsy, or Nissan Patrols in various incarnations.

I am not anti Land Rover - I own one - but unless the next LR has a sensible capapcity engine, I'll be buying a bigger motor Jap.

Andrew.

I can´t agree with Andrew´s last post - in my case I definitely found the extra power from an enlarged 300TDi intercooler both noticeable and useful.

In any case, unless you are very heavily loaded and/or you have inadequate tyres, there are very few expedition places where a 300TDi´s power in insufficient. Of course, it´s a different story if you intend to try and play in high dunes, but it´s just not done on expedition travel. No denying that more power makes life easier, but I´ve never heard of a well-driven, well-prepared Land Rover (or any other 4x4) being defeated for lack of power.

Don´t try to up the power of a 2.5 turbo by 50% - that´s unrealistic. But modest gains are easily possible, and for a relatively small outlay, especially if work needs to be done anyway.

My 2p worth...

Michael...
www.expeditionoverland.com

Incidentally, I must be fey. Just a few days after this thread´s discussion of intercooler leaks, my Allisport upgrade fatigued around a mounting bolt - quite a major leak. Why does it have to happen when I most need it? We are at 3000-4500m altitude!

Anyway, it just hissed a whole lot when the turbo was "on", and she was pretty sluggish. In the next town, we had it welded up - hope it´s better than Allisport´s welding! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif.

Back to "full" power now, though I am half-considering raising the boost a bit while we are at altitude.

I was a bit worried that it might suck (unfiltered) air through the hole when idling, but I tested with some soapy water, and it always appears to have some positive presure.

Btw, in the mountains a turbo diesel really shines - it´s much easier to compensate for the rare atmosphere.

M...
www.expeditionoverland.com