Keith Gott
 

Hi there,

From the 5th July ( this year ) we are departing to Ulaanbaatar and back via the stans and the gobi desert in a 110 hardtop TD5.

We are looking for a specialist preparation company and considering our current location Keith Gott seems to be the obvious choice.

Has anyone here had any good ( or bad ) experiences dealing with this company? We are looking to spend a maximum of £4000 on preparing the vehicle with most of the additions fitted by the company we use.

Thanks

What sort of preparations have you got in mind?

Well I see they (from their website) help Bowler with their support so they must know what they are on about when it comes to LR. But IMHO if you can assemble IKEA furniture you can do most of the prep for overlanding yourself - thereby saving a ton of cash. I would assume that for 4K quite a lot of that is going to be labour bills which 'could' be avoided... Of course I am a fanatical tinkerer type so feel free to point out that you have no interest in lying under vehicles sweating and swearing for relaxation?c?

That is a big relief to hear! Clearly the budget counts, so much of the tinkering will be done ourselves. Being our first trip it seemed sensible at the time to go for this company we'd heard of, particularly when coming to spares for our 110 and what we should take etc....

Incidentally, how many should we looking to take? This is clearly a 'how long is a piece of string argument' but in terms of the essentials, prop shafts etc what could be considered minimum?

In terms of the mods themselves, the 'essentials' go something like:
4x OME Shocks
4x OME Springs..... not fitted by us!
5x BF Goodrich All terrain
4x WARN Lights
Window Grills
Additional Optima Deep Cycle Battery
Hi Lift System
Raised Air Intake

This, we reckon should cover the brunt of the prep, with room for jerry cans etc & a renovated rear section when the time comes. But please feel free to critique and elaborate if necessary!

My ideal would be buying and adding all the stuff ourselves, and it seems for the most part plausible... just with our inexperience and with such a big trip in mind, initially a overland prep company seemed wise...

Cheers,
Tom

If you're in fine fettle health wise, and have a drive and a couple of spare weekends, all the gear you've listed below is a pretty straightforward installation job, and should cost about £1800 if you shop right.

Shocks and springs are much easier than you think - I can change a full set in about 2 hours, and you don't need any special tools (maybe spring compressor from Halfords to help with the OME's)

Obviously you'l want to get tyres fitted by someone, but BFG's are sold all over.

Raised air intake is very straightforward

Lights - plenty of info on the net on how to rig up a simple relay and switch

Optima battery - simple enough, and installation kits with split charge relays can be bought off the shelf.

Window grills - easy enough with a drill and some self tapping screws

Hi-lift jack - buy it, stick it in the back or get a kit the mounting kit with it to attach it to spare wheel or roofrack.

I would say it's a good idea to get stuck into as much maintenance as you can now while there is loads of help available to you and you're in a good environment. Knowing how your trucks put together and having some basic skills will be a relief to you when your miles from anywhere.

Why not start of with something simple like the raised air intake, and see how you go, ask on here for advice or try LR4x4.com :thumbup1:

Keith Gott
 

While you are under there doing springs and shocks I would suggest you check out, and if there is any doubt change the suspension bushes. I see it’s aTD5 so I guess it’s not that old though.

Just my 2 cents worth and I would suggest people on LR4X4 will offer more (not a LR owner myself but have been):thumbup1:

Haven't used OME, and nor would I at the silly price - I use standard LR (Springs) and think they are fine. I use 110 rears on the front as well and they have worked out well. Didn't rate the HD rears though (on a 90) but if you can fit 130's that should work out well.
I've used Terrafirma shocks and would buy them again, gave them a merciless beating in Libya and they coped very well - cost about £25 each.
And they're metalic silver - BlingBling!!:cool2::gunsmilie:

Andrew already pointed out that most stuff is just waste of money on your case.

If your car is on good condition you can well do the trip on stock car. No mods required.

If your car is heavily loaded then perhaps take a spare rear shock and spring.

4x WARN Lights -- why? If you manage to drive every day with standard setup, why need to aux lights now?

Window Grills -- no need. Defender locks can be opened with screwdriver anyway. Just don't keep any valuables in sight.

Additional Optima Deep Cycle Battery -- if you have freezer then maybe yes, otherwise not needed. Be sure your original battery is in good condition.

Hi Lift System -- Hi Lift is nice to nave. I have mine mounted horizontally on rear bumper.

Raised Air Intake -- For such short trip on mostly dry climate no needed. Take a few spare air filters.

Especially if you intend to sell the car after just this one trip.

I'll show some images of my Defender 90. If I bought this car in stock form, then aded some stuff for overlanding. Boxes in rear (extends to bed) I made of plywood, these help to keep all stuff out of sight and avoid grab and run situations. However, as I said before, this trip can be as well done in bone stock car, but yes, some lockable compartments give some more peace in mind.

http://www.rebaseonu.net/uploads/def...ga_seest_2.jpg

http://www.rebaseonu.net/uploads/def...ga_seest_1.jpg

http://www.rebaseonu.net/uploads/def...ga_seest_3.jpg

Now I have nice overlander but the problem is that I have got infected by motorbiking bug! :rofl:

Remember that your air intake is just about in the wheel arch with LOADS of dust coming up. I would definitely recommend a snorkel as 1st modification, based on our own experiences in outback Oz. All the experts in oz would say the same about a snorkel. They obviously also help with deep water crossings

I agree that OME is not that great. We had some on a dual cab hilux in Oz. they were ok, but the right side did drop a bit after about 30,000km. We have since fitted Tough Dog 45mm adjustable shocks and heavy duty leaf springs to the rear of the troopy. They are about the same price as OME (maybe a bit more) but by far a better shock. i think we got a 100,000km warranty. Not sure about the std landrover shocks.

I'm sure the bfg A/T will be fine, but M/T might be better. We had a few places around mong/central asia where I was glad I had a good M/T rather than A/T. I've mentioned before on here as well about the Mickey Thompson MTZ Baja tyre. Absolutely awesome. We travel with 2 spares and have done 40,000km so far and they should be fine for our London to Cape town leg. we do rotate our tyres though, so use all 6.

Have a look at our 'links' page on our website for links to the Tough Dog and tyres. there is also a link for a Oz 4wd forum with a dedicated landrover section. Loads of info available there.

Hoe this helps

Hi again,
you've never mentioned where you're going to sleep at night! We loved our roof tent but having the ability to sleep inside your vehicle is always a good idea. For such a short trip maybe a cheap ground tent and a way of sleeping in the back would be good. If you REALLY want a water tank- fiama 70lt for £40 is very good, we had one- GREAT. Paddocks sell good cheap stock- we got our snorkel there, very happy with it and we felt we needed it for Pakistan, Iran and Lao. Not been to Mongolia, so don't know for there BUT people do rallies there in old bangers all the time without a snorkel.....
We found it very hard not to be 'sold' on the image- inexperience let us to buy things that we felt we should have rather than really needed.
If we were you, on such a short jaunt, we would chuck a cooker in the back, some water purifying tablets, some 'emergency' food- like packets of ready cooked rice/veg and MTR packets- fab ready made Indian boil in the bag goodies and go.................. Have FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup1:

The more you take.....
 

The more you take the more you have to look after. The more you spend the less money you can take on the trip. Do as others have said ....Good tyres good battery, water storage, A few air filters (depending on how far you will drive) I would take enough oil and air filters for the whole journey, they dont take up much room.
Spares you can get by post if you are stuck

Have a good trip

Graeme

I have to add that these warn lights are (like their winches) way overpriced - for the money I would be expecting HID... Extra decent lights (two) I however always like to have.

Thank you again for this great advice

It is clear that we could do the trip in the stock version, however this trip is by no means the last we will do and so getting as much of the vehicle done now seems sensible.

In terms of the snorkel, what's the difference between the £150 safari-equip one and the paddockspares £60 ( apart from the obvious:thumbup1:)
Considering we'll only be water crossing where needs be ( ie mongolia rivers ) the £60 will suffice, right?!

I also have a few more questions re. the preparation.

(1) For all apart from the Shocks, Springs, tyres and wiring for 12v plugs etc. the fitting will be done by us with a very limited mechanical knowledge. Will any garage be able to fit these to expedition standard, or is it worth travelling further?

(2) Which brings me on to the garage aspect. An expedition standard service beforehand is a top priority. How much am I looking to spend on such a service? Is it worth making the hike to footloose just for this aspect of it?

(3) Being young and possessing limited to no experience in car mechanics, if the landy goes whilst we're on the trip, it is unlikely that we'll be able to top and tale the problem as quickly as a seasoned overlander would. Considering my knowledge extends to the Haynes manual ( which I have now poured over many times ) is it worth trying to find a course, and for that matter does anyone know of any in the south?!

(4) In terms of spares, what should we look at taking? Are an extra set of prop shafts worth it for instance, or can we afford to simply grab air and oil filters, a set of spanners and go?!

Cheers,
Tom

P.S The WARN lights are as gilghana suggests hugely overpriced, instead we are going to attach two WIPAC ones to the A bar. Although we don't intend to be driving at night...allegedly the lights are v useful when it comes to other cars being able to see you through the dust in KZ etc.

The difference between a £60 snorkel and a £150 snorkel?? Bling, bling man!
Snorkel is to feed clean air into your filter- if you really want to do serious wading you need a lot more than that!!! Wellies are optional extras- ha ha
Cheap driving lights- great.
We are experienced overlanders and we also have a Haynes manual and no mechanical experience. Your landy is pretty new- do you really want/ need to spent £100's on a course- ask a nice local mechanic if you can watch and learn on a service session!??
If your prop shaft goes you will be very unlucky! Keep your weight down and go easy on the big bumps- it saves on any breaks or strains on the underneath. We took basic spares plus a little more and a simple bag of tools plus our Haynes manual. Ultimately you could carry endless supplies and never use them- you've got to make the personal decision of where you want to draw the line. Good luck and may your wellies stay dry! Rose:thumbup1:

The shocks and springs are really so easy on a Landrover. I was not joking when I compared doing a flat pack IKEA assembly to most stuff... Probably the most difficult part of the whole thing will be undoing the shock mounting nuts (WD40 well in advance). The 12v wiring is also a breeze - just remember fuses or breakers. My main point about doing it all yourself is that it's your vehicle so you will want to do as good a job as possible. Your local mechanic generally doesn't give a toss. This means you as a mechanical novice will 9 times out 0f 10 do a better job. I know there are exceptions - a couple of people on these forums are overland prep guys who I have never heard anything other than praise for, but I cannot say the same for most of the motor mechanic trade in the UK. Really I cannot stress enough that getting in about your own vehicle prep & servicing is so worthwhile. And if you end up in an unlikely pickle you must know someone who is a bit vehicle 'minded' and can help you out of a jam. Other points:
- Propshafts generally do not break at all. Just grease them well and make sure there is not any play in the spider bearing (at the axle end).
- The landrover as it is is actually well set up for wading, with breathers basically at the bonnet line. Any snorkel at any price can be improved or double checked with a bit of silicone. Check water crossings carefully - snorkel or not.
I have no idea of the age and mileage of your Defender,but my minimum spares list would be:

- Radiator top and bottom hoses changed (and take old ones as spare)
- Change all drive belts to new (and take old as spares)
- 1m length of heater hose
- Various jubilee clips
- Roll of Duck tape and electrical tape
- Tube of epoxy "liquid metal"
- All fuel filters (I would consider two fuel filters)
- Air filter
- Oil filter (if I was anticipating an oil change, otherwise wouldn't bother)
- Bulbs
- Fuses
- Some lengths of electric cable
- Some fencing wire (to tie stuff up or back on...)
- few common sized nuts and bolts

If the vehicle is in decent shape and has been otherwise well checked and serviced then that would really be it.
Gil

tip
 

I would like to add the following to Gil's list as these are most common failures;

- open up the alternator and check brushes and replace if needed, check collector rings and clean and refurbish if necessary (bit of fine sand paper)
- open up starter motor and check brushes and main contact, replace if needed.
-check front and rear break pads/shoes, replace if necessary

some basic mecanical knowledge (slightly beyond IKEA level) is needed.

Cheers,

Noel
exploreafrica.web-log.nl

Fortunately I have managed to squeeze a couple of days in with my local mechanic!

Having religiously read the Haynes manual etc. over quite a period now, I feel much safer in terms of a mechanical grounding. Obviously my practical experience is minimal, but hopefully these couple of days should cheer me up..!

I've looked at ways of cutting costs in order to accommodate a roof tent, and one way has been through altering the suspension set up.

Although I hope not to start another suspension battle, instead of OME Shocks and Springs, I've opted for heavy load terrafirma springs on the rear with twin shocks, and have decided to move the original OEM shocks and springs forward... Is it disastrous to mix and match the shocks and springs like that or a good compromise? Ideally i'd swap all the shocks and springs for terrafirmas but i've been told moving the original springs etc forward is a viable option...please correct me if I'm wrong.

Back to the roof tent, obviously they're a heavy investment whichever way you look, considering we're prepared to spend approximately £750 does anyone have any views on the 'waypoint-tours' 1.2m? They seem considerably cheaper than hannibal or eezi-awn for instance.

I've looked at mounting it on a roof rack but realised it can be done on roof bars instead. Again, is this advisable? or is it worth swapping two roof bars, spending a bit more and purchasing a galvanised roof rack ( Anything like the patriot range is way out of our budget so famousfour or otherwise would be the option.)

Thanks again
Tom

Terrafirma springs on the back will be fine, twin shocks - you dont really neeed them, but whats wrong with shelling out on a bit of bling here and there, and they do firm up the roll a bit.
You can't put your rear springs on the front as they are a different diameter - 110's have 7" springs on the rear and 6" springs on the front.

Roof tent - down to choice and depth of pockets, but my choice would be to buy a good second hand one of a good brand - eezyawn/hannibal etc rather than one of the cheaper chinese imports which go under a host of different brand names - will probably be sturdier and if you want to sell it when you get back you'll get more for it.
I use roof bars to mount my tent, can't imagine why people use big heavy roofracks to be honest - the tents are made so they can mount on roof bars, so no probs there.

Roof bars
 

I see no point to install roof rack just for tent. It weights a lot high up. My roof tent is on 3 Mantec roof bars. If you go with bars, put at least 3 (not 2). Less stress and if one breaks (less likely with 3) you still have spare. Thule bars for Defender are way too high and not suitable, IMO. Mantec bars are OK but legs could be wider (from front to back).

"Although I hope not to start another suspension battle, instead of OME Shocks and Springs, I've opted for heavy load terrafirma springs on the rear with twin shocks, and have decided to move the original OEM shocks and springs forward... Is it disastrous to mix and match the shocks and springs like that or a good compromise? Ideally i'd swap all the shocks and springs for terrafirmas but i've been told moving the original springs etc forward is a viable option...please correct me if I'm wrong."



Suspension is a bit of a minefield. You would be forgiven for thinking that fitting expensive aftermarket stuff will amount to an upgrade, but very often it doesn't. Even if the components are of better quality, tuning and combining them to improve on the original setup can be a dark art.

Remember one of the best things about a bog standard Defender is the suspension!

'Heavy duty' sounds good, but with springs what it generally means is HARD and that's not always what you need.

Can I ask what your reasons are for wanting to change the springs and shocks? Are you planning on carrying a lot of weight?

My 110 that i've just finished building (Td5 station wagon) is quite lardy... full external cage, winch, nudgebar etc.

but i've just used standard LR springs (HD 110 fronts, which are the same as standard 90 rears) and the 130 double-spring rears.

Although i did change the dampers to OME ones, as i've had OME suspension on my part 90's, and it IS worth the money.

But my current setup, LR springs and OME dampers, gives a lovely smooth ride, with half the cost!

probably overkill but
If you have the money, I got a spare ECU for 250 pounds and got it mapped as a copy of my orginal engineto my engine, to plug in ,undo earth and power and reconnect, and it will go, only sensor that will stop you dead is if the Crankshaft sensor stops, the ECu will not get any readings!!!
Having experince in Russia, and stans, Diesel is sometimes not very pure outside main centres and will clog fuel filters, Take a tank fuel pump(spare complete)( can be a idea to precut access hole in back of car to save pulling out complete tank and a couple of the main diesel filters, so if you get clogges up with bad fuel it will go
In russia you can buy a steel diesel filter , put in the line and wash it out every so often
I can supply a workshop manual in PFD form for 1999-2002 td5 if you pm me
for 200 pounds a nanocom machine will find any engine problems but again overkill (unless you get stuck!!)
CHeck and renew, brake and clutch master cylinders or carry spares
Stanard springs are ok all depend how much weight you put in, less weight, less problems
Sometimes you can "con " a dealer to Lend you the spares by buying them and getting 85% back when you return them in good condition!!!
People in russia will help you and are so kind but if you have a electronic problem, if you can dianostic it and then talk to some one in Uk they can advise you, very unlikely I know
There are very very little spares for TD5 in russia and non for New Puma engined one
Here are a few links in this link
eastern russia , mongolia , siberia and the road of bones. - Page 2 - Land Rover UK Forums

Does anyone know a reliable/cheap dealer of mantec roof bars?

It seems as people have suggested that they are much more sensible than a roof rack, less heavy too.

Storage wise, having just stripped out the land rover,:( everything but the driver and passenger seats, we're sticking a mobile storage systems drawer between the rear wheel boxes. For the rest, it's a combination of ammo boxes & army surplus boxes. Where the middle row seats were here will be the fluids, trying to keep the water and diesel cans as close to the centre and as low as possible. Does this sound sensible?

And to stop all of the above flying forward clearly going to put in a dog guard. However, having researched, the only one's I can find fit behind where the middle row of seats were. Are there any prefab ones available that sit behind the front cab cutting off the rest of the vehicle?

Finally, the biggest unknown in our budget right now is the roof tent, we have a pretty good idea of the brand but are desperate to find one second hand for alot less. If not, is it possible to 'borrow' tents from dealers ie Frog's Island for instance?

Thanks again,
Tom

I've been using Halfords roof bars for the last couple of years with no problem, though mine are bolted directly to a roll cage as I have a soft top rather than using gutter fixings - as long as you use three bars, can't see standard ones being an issue.

Keeping fluids in the middle is a good idea, tie everything down with ratchet straps or something though to stop them moving - a guard is a good idea to top stuff coming into the cab, but you will really want to keep everything tied down tight, it's really annoying when everything bangs up and down on rough tracks (as well as dangerous)

What kind of roof tent are you after?

Hi... Save yourself a ton of hassle and just get a standard Toyota Landcruiser Amazon Diesel.
The '94 - '96 model is bullet proof in its std form.
You can pick these up for the price you have put aside for the mods alone !
Reliability, strength and comfort leave the LR in the dark ages.
Good luck :thumbup1:

...:yawn: .

Hi Tom -
re the cargo barrier there must be various suppliers for 110 Hardtops, maybe try the LR overland prep folk; Brownchurch, Mantec, Safety Devices etc. Alternatively Milford (Oz) are one of the largest manufacturers of proper rated cargo barriers and they are available in EU. But I am unclear if your Defender is a Hardtop or Station Wagon... I don't know if you have bought suspension, but you might like to investigate the airsprings that people like Matt Savage sell - cheap good alternative to heavy duty springs, and the beauty is the vehicle can ride like standard at home.
Cheers, Gil

timktm - there is even a special thread for the LR Vs LC debate.

I've just read this post with great interest as I've just bought a 110 300Tdi for my new exped vehicle, it'll be driven to Kenya, at least, in about 5 years, so I have some time to get it all sorted.

A couple of my experiences that relate to comments in this thread.
I had the cambelt changed on my 200 Discovery before going to Tunisia in 2004, the water pump was changed at the same time. In the desert 5 months after these items were changed the waterpump failed.

Spot lights are not necessary if all goes to plan, however they are extremely useful if you do get caught out. In many countries other road users don't have any lights on their mopeds, cows, donkey carts, children, etc, and more often than not they'll be on the wrong side of the road, you do not only need them to see the road ahead.

Mate of mine, with me on the 2006/7 trip, dropped behind on a desert piste, his back axle was loose. He had his regular garage change some standard bushes for poly's before leaving for the trip, unfortunately they didn't do the nut up properly on the lower link and it dropped off somewhere. Not an easy sized nut to find.

Same trip another car, 110 1988, shock had been changed for an "after market" brand, unfortunately one of the shocks shed a bottom nut, I had a good selection of spares, all from Land Rovers, none of them fitted. We did manage to force one on in the end, didn't do the trheads much good though.

Following my waterpump experience I always carry one as a spare (the one supplied to replace the failed one under warranty). That said, on both the 2005/6 and 2006/7 trips, both around 4000 miles, I had no issues at all with my Discovery. Last trip we left the UK with 187,000 on the clock, bounced around the dunes, and have now clocked up 221,000, hence the new Defender, that's only got 157,000 on.
www.4x4-travel.co.uk
Kevin

Hi ,
Lots of good advice above, most of which we would endorse .
Before our last Euro tour, 2007, we spoke to mike Creighton who has done two world trips in a Disco. His advice was have the car serviced, make your own internal fixings etc, and dont spend a fortune unnecessarilly. We did just that, and had no problems.Infact we are going to refit the car just the same for next year. We met a couple, who are now friends who had a 110 built by one of these Expert Overland companys. The stuff was so crammed in, they coulnt use half of it !!
Plus if you have made it, you know how to fix it.
Also, more importantly, make sure your partner knows how it all works, cause if you get sick/injured, they will need to still function.
Dont jack up the susp if you have a roof tent and your partner is only 5'4" ! because you will be erecting it on your own !!
Get the car kitted and go camping in UK first, its too late to find things dont work when you have set off.
As well as the good spares list above, Gotts said we needed only 2 things; their phone no. and a credit card. It worked for us, a new alternator to our campsite in Romania in 48hrs ! now thats service.
Sounds like you are in Hampshire, so feel free to e mail us.

"Spot lights are not necessary if all goes to plan, however they are extremely useful if you do get caught out. In many countries other road users don't have any lights on their mopeds, cows, donkey carts, children, etc, and more often than not they'll be on the wrong side of the road, you do not only need them to see the road ahead."

One of the 'main' rules that we have set ourselves, but the one rule everyone seems to break is don't drive at night, so I am hoping... touch wood.... that as you say they will act merely as a precaution against other things/people we may drive over. All we are going for is a simmonites a-bar with two fitted wipac lights- something we have been meaning to get done for a while and now we have...

Everything has been about cost cutting vs efficiency and vice versa, the only things we have had fitted professionally have been 5 new tubeless cooper discoverer s/ts on 5 new rims and a new set of terrafirma shocks and heavy duty springsm, but after what kevinrbeech said I have double checked all the turret and bottom nuts. We were so nice to frogs island that they also gave us a spare steering damper!

Storage wise- the mobile storage systems are wonderful but expensive, so instead we have decided to nab some old army surplus boxes and stick them on top of a home made drawer system. We've decided the best option is to get two heavy duty drawer runners bolted on to the wheel boxes, put a tough board between it which'll slide in and out, and another board on top to sandwhich in the ammo boxes. Does anyone know the best runners to use/where they can be got in the UK?

Back on the load guard front...it just seems to be too much of a hassle to get a custom made 'official' one- so the next best option appears to be a sheet of ply which can slide in behind the passenger and driver seat to separate it all off- will also double as an all purpose removable board ( always necessary... of course :cool4:)

The roof tent idea has gone down the pan....too expensive basically. Instead it's an oztent RV2 which we'll use to extend out the back of the land rover.

In terms of spares, the water pump sounds like a very wise idea... is there any other genuine replacement parts we should take, or will nuts, bolts, cable ties and gaffer do?!

The next big thing before departure on 5th July is to get the electrics done. This bit makes me very nervous but I think, instead of paying £700 for Frog's island to do it, we're going to fit everything ourselves.

As it stands we're installing an additionaly optima yellow top, national luna 'DIY' split charge kit and one extra cigar lighter socket. In terms of powerpoints around the vehicle- what's the best bet? We're not taking a fridge or a winch, but still want the 2nd battery.

Everything else we install ( 2x national luna 'c' fluoro lights, 1 x compressor, auxiliary lights & work lights, inverter (?) and 3 pin power points (?) ) we will hard wire in. Having never been particularly technical, this is the bit that scares me, especially when it seems everything has to be piled on top of the battery. Any help on this front would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks again,
Tom

For runners try Haefle (sic) - german manufacturers of just about every conceivable type of drawer/door fitting known, and top quality.

Elecs - just remember not to use too thin wire, crimp ends, grommets where it passes through body work, and fuses or circuit breakers for everything (as close to the battery as possible. With a split system remember power can flow from either battery, so should have a circuit protection device at each end. Oh and keep the inverter dry! A cheapo multi meter is a handy tool when doing your own electrics. Can't think of anything else obvious,
good luck,
G

Ref the drawer runners - if you have one near you, try Ikea.
They do loads of stuff with slide out runners on, sometimes you can buy the runners seperately from the bargain corner bit, worth a mooch.

REALLY!!!!
Faults