LR90 Suspension for Expedition Payloads
 

Has anyone got any experiance of upgrading a Land Rovers suspension suspension to enable it to carry an expedition load? I have noticed that a lot seem to increase the height of the body, not a good idea in my view. Should I stick with OE or go for an OMEmu kit. Any views or ideas welcome..... Regards

I personally, being a purist and having read horror stories about non OE suspension would stick to OE, but go for the heavier load options.

I changed my 110 front to heavy duty, i.e. slightly taller springs with a higher load rating, works much better. For a 90 I would go for the high load rear springs at the rear, and maybe try the heavier duty fronts.

You'll get more ground clearance and less wallowing, albeit probably a firmer ride when empty.

Shocks I think I am right in saying remain standard.

Andrew.

Andrew,

You will probably not get many nods for your views regarding the quality of OME suspension. If the horror stories were so widespread, OME would not be one of the most popular setups across Australia (and America, but for different reasons).

Standard shocks are just that - standard considering the conditions these vehicles are built for: farm and commercial use. Hammering the shocks for days on end under very heavy load was not part of the designer's brief. BTW, would you trust a shock that cost a fiver a piece at Far East wholesale prices?

Aaron,

A lot seem to increase the height of the body not just to sit higher, but a) to enable fitting larger tyres and/or b) to enable standard ride height when the springs are compressed under heavy load.


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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

Roman,

I'm not so sure about the expensive is better for expedition usage shocks.

There's at least three travelers I met of which I remember what shocks they had. I remember, because their shocks where expensive, leeking, Old Man EMU.

They probably have good waranty, but that's of not much use in Ghana, let alone somwhere in Congo.

For myself, I don't think I'll ever go back to gasshocks for expidtion use.

Rob

Rob,

Without going further into this argument, can we agree that:

* cheap = disposable
* standard = replaceable
* expensive = rebuildable

OME is not expensive compared to the high end products. I'm not defending OME (I happended to break one shock without any apparent reason), just believe they give a better mileage than standard oil filled shocks.

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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

I was not specifically referring to OME as being unable to cope... I lump all non OE shocks / springs together. In my humble expereience LR's own suspension in good condition performed perfectly during weeks of rampaging with 3/4 ton load up to 50 deg C all over Algeria, and twice in less demanding conditions in Morocco. Not a trace of a problem, from anything on the 110.

More expensive does not necessarily mean better. Manufacturers want to sell products, and a lot of 4x4ers believe the grapevine talk that you have to 'upgrade' anything on a LR so it can cope.

Using gas shocks will transfer shock loads to some other part of the vehicle, like shock mounts or chassis. For that reason alone I would not touch OME or any other 'improvement'. Gas shocks should be reserved for fast road handling, not for off road use.

OME and similar may well be popular, so is McDonalds...

Andrew.



[This message has been edited by Andrew Baker (edited 18 February 2005).]

Having raced off-road (Baja 1000 et al) for a number of years, I can certainly say that gas shocks and even the newer air shocks work very, very well off-road. Companies like Bilstein, FOX and Sway-a-way incorporate some amazing technology into their shocks. I don't think that exchanging oil for gas shocks by itself will add any loads or stress to your car. So long as you aren't changing the design of the suspension or how it works.

For expedition use, the standard LR suspension with uprated OE springs and even standard shocks will work. If you want a little more comfort, and a little more clearance for larger tires, there are many aftermarket options. I've used OME springs with FOX shocks to great effect. I had also heard from a number of people about OME shocks failing, but have not heard anything about their springs failing. My 110 has a Safari Gard JEK II kit on it, and while the suspension works well (when it works) I would not recommend it out of the box. Safari Gard failed to inform me about a few additional items that I needed to allow the suspension to work properly.

I think bottom line is, standard will work. If you want to go aftermarket, make sure you get a system that has been tested and proven for expedition use. And not just 'proven' by the manufacturer either. Get first hand accounts. Like I said, if you are interested in the SG kit, I'll happily let you know what you need (and how much extra it will cost you! :-) )

cheers

Graham
www.africaoverland.org

Baja 1000 is about lightly laden vehicles on a one off trip, with full access to creature comforts and technical backup and is not a fair comparison. Saharan travel, that is, in the interior of the Sahara, and not around the periphery, is about heavily loaded vehicles is very remote environments where vehicle reliability, not 'comfort' is paramount.

You don't need to be a member of mensa to realize that with heavy loads quick reacting gas (usually gas and oil) shocks will cope with only so much absorption of energy, i.e. it is a high stress design working within tight tolerances - if the design is not correct, e.g. the design is by someone making a general range of components without having carried out vehicle specific testing, the balance of energy will be transferred to the vehicle chassis, or suspension mountings, or the spring or shock absorbers themselves may fail..sounds familiar?? LR OE suspension uses simple long travel oil shocks that don't have to work so hard (but are less comfortable than gas shocks) and springs that don't break, i.e. they have been tested on specific vehicles.

Why spend money to make things worse?

Andrew.

i use OME springs on my (heavily laden) 90 and have had no problems at all. i've also used OME on my last 3 defenders (90 and 110), i only off road in the UK (at the moment) but they work fine.

for my current 90, which has a full external rollcage and all the off road junk you usually carry (winch, nudgebar, tools, ground anchor, tools, jerrycans etc) it weighs in at about 2400kgs, so i've fitted OME 763 springs at the front and OME 762's at the rear, which are listed as HD and VHD! the ride is excellent, not bouncy or "knock your fillings out" and the axle travel stays as good as ever.

Andrew,

I admit not being a member of Mensa while you seem to have a thorough knowledge of the subject and lots of experience to back it up, so please tell us more: how Landrover shock design prevents heat buildup and excels in heat dissipation, how quickly the shocks regain damping qualities when cooled, maybe something about lack of aeration, world class multi-stage valving, and finally how "Using gas shocks will transfer shock loads to some other part of the vehicle" while using landrover shock will not?


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Roman (UK)
www.overlandcruiser.info

I'm sorry I just can't help myself...
Unless the shock has some serious cooling fins or a separate oil reservoir (look under the wings of a Dakar competitor) it's going to get just as hot as the OE version.

When a shock starts working hard the oil heats up and cavitation takes place on the downstream side of the damper orifice pack. If you keep it up the oil will boil and the shock will burst.
In the long term the cavitation erodes the orifice through which the oil must pass and the damping is reduced.

To avoid this you have to increase the pressure of the oil; a "gas" shock is actually an oil shock absorber with a reservoir of gas at as much as 200 bar behind a little piston pushing onto the oil.
This enormous pressure closes the cavitation before it occurs and increases the boiling point of the oil. And if you still manage to boil the oil the pressure reservoir can sometimes take the strain.
All that to say that at equal valving a flashy gas and an OE shock will behave the same at low speeds.

After that it depends on the driver, a driver that feels the need to put on aftermarket shocks because he has had a bad time with OE units is already transmitting more load to the chassis through his driving style. If he then puts on "gas" shocks that have the same damping rates they will last longer.
As a general rule the higher the damping rate the more impact load is transmitted to the chassis during the compression phase. Also the quicker the shock heats up, gas units can afford to have higher rates for the reasons mentioned.

For fairly obvious reasons a heavier load needs a higher damping rate but a heavier load is harder on the chassis...
The OE LR stuff is designed for the average farm track with a bail of straw and a pig in the back. If you drive like farmer Brown, you'll go all around the world on OE kit with only the 'normal LR problems' http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif

Horses for courses.
Hope this helps.
Luke
1992 Fiat Uno
Too many years as an Automotive design engineer.
and a nice mountainbike.

Yup, what Luke said. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif

You might do worse than fit a couple of airbags into the rear springs, Aaron. Dead simple, cheap, (about £80 for the pair) and you can adjust the pressure to suit the load and road conditions. (I let all the air out when I want full suspension travel at crawling speeds).

The usual caveats about overloading etc. still apply, obviously.

Dingocroft (among others) sell them, and will post them to you.

HTH,

Michael...

Yep, I did the airbag thing and was extremely satisfied with them.

Luke,

I don't understand how the piston pushing the oil increases the boiling point of the oil (I do believe you though).

congratulation to you and Silvia btw (couldn't retrieve your mail to send these off line)

Did you get rid of the Iveco? Will be rough with three rocking over moroccan roads in that little fiat.

Cu,

Rob

Roman,

You're probably right.
In the LR case, OE is cheap. And replaceable means available rather than affordable to replace.

Also, I think that functionality of the OE shocks for expedition use is at about the same level as most gas shocks.
Taking into account that you'll have a pair of OE shocks at half the price of the cheaper gas shocks (Monroe etc), and that the cheaper gas shocks are about half the price of the OME shocks I don't see the point in fitting OME shocks to 'prepare' your car.

All the expensive stuff probably have their usages, but IMHO for normal people preparing for a ‘normal’ expedition, HD OE springs and shocks are a pretty good set-up, and hard to beat when looking at value for money.

Cheers, Will be looking for OE heavy duty replacement spring/sockers. I like the idea of keeping it all simple!

Robert,

It's not the piston pushing on the oil that increases the boiling point of the oil per say, it's the 200+psi of gas pressure on top of the oil. Boiling is just the process of changing from liquid to gas phase. The gas pressure on the oil means that the oil has to absorb a lot more energy before being able to boil. And that raises the boiling point of the oil. Just like a pressure cooker. Works very well.

And to those who may not know, the Baja 1000, is, more than anything else, about reliability and survival. The cars may be light, but the speeds they hit bumps at are enough to offset much of the payload you may be talking about. Try hitting a one meter jump at 100+ MPH in anything and it will cause stress. (But hell, it is really fun!!)

That all said, I will reiterate what I hoped was my main point above: don't modify your suspension unless you know what you are doing and are using a product that has been well tested. Otherwise, you risk doing what I did -- getting your truck welded back together at various points around the Sahara.

cheers

Graham
www.africaoverland.org

Keep it simple:
OE Heavy Duty Springs and Shocks, Wolf Bushes,

On a 25,000km across West Africa and back trip -
Good ride, good articulation, no problems at all
And I saved a good few hundred pounds over an 'uprated' set up.
- And actually in the case of LR the suspension (HD) IS set up to overland straight off the production line - have you seen how they test them ? - CONCRETE corrogations all day - for weeks on end up at Gaydon....AND field testing...Im sure other manufactors do the same.
Save yourself some money and put it towards a roof tent.

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Ex RAF Regt, Ex Dragoman, LRE Instructor,
LR 90 300 Tdi Overlander
Suzuki DR650 Overlander
..and Bloody Nice Bloke!

Graham,

That's what I thought was the Idea, but then, if you have just oil in a close environment, with no gas presurized cylinder to compensate for expansion, the presure must raise much quicker, and as such the boiling temp must increase even more. Or not?

BTW, you should have lowered your bumpstops (just bolt a piece of wood or so between the bumpstops and the chassis). By the time I read your suspension was giving you trouble you where relaxing in Namibia already



[This message has been edited by Robbert (edited 22 February 2005).]

Our Defender 110 did 65.000 km thru africa with LR heavy duty springs and the original shocks. Only when we had a few thousand km left did one of the front shocks begin to get a small leak. Nothing big enough to bother with even, and we left it as it was till the car was shipped home. Granted, both the springs and shocks were pretty worn out then and thus had to be replaced. But that's not too bad IMO considering where we drove etc.

I do think that driving style has a lot to do with it. If you drive like a maniac, you won't get very far in africa no matter what you use...

Erik

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EDIT: Forgot to mention that the rear springs were Defender 130 HD with the inside "helper springs"!


[This message has been edited by Erik D. (edited 03 March 2005).]

Robbert,

Actually, oil doesn't expand very much when it goes into the gas phase. As the oil boils you will get an increase in pressure and hense a corresponding increase in boiling point. But going from 1 atm to 2 atm in the headspace above the oil is a doubling of pressure which takes a lot of boiled oil, and only corresponds to about 30psi in increased pressure. The 200 +psi that you can put on top of the oil in a gas shock has a dramatically larger effect!

We did end up lowering the bump stops, but by strapping some pieces of old tyre tread onto the axle. Worked pretty well. It got us from Gabon into Namibia, so wasn't too bad!

Cheers

Graham
www.africaoverland.org

Gipper, You mention using wolf bushes. Thats not a modification ive heard of before. How do they differ from standard bushes?

Cheers Aaron

Hi Aaron
Wolf Bushes - used on Wolf military Land Rovers.
They are just a bit firmer - the compound of the mixture used - which when loaded for overland means they are about right.
Its popular to use polyurethane bushes these days, but I find the stiff ones dont have enough give in them for articulation - and the ones that let you articulate wear out quickly.

Cheers
Grif

Gypper - where would you get Wolf bushes? Craddocks?

Runner - I managed to get a set in relation to a previous Job.....say no more...
Try Craddocks or any Independant.
Grif

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Ex RAF Regt, Ex Dragoman, LRE Instructor,
LR 90 300 Tdi Overlander
Suzuki DR650 Overlander
..and Bloody Nice Bloke!

On my 110, I have Land Rover's own brand 130 HD springs on front, and 130 HD springs on rear, with the second, inner spring as well.

Has now done London-Sydney, 5 months in Australian outback, UK-Ivory Coast-UK, UK-Algeria-UK and Belgium-Mauritania-Belgium.

All grossly overladen (once we even had 700kgs of water on the roof, crossing the dunes of the Simpson!!) - have never had a shock fail, or a spring break. Thought I should replace them now because of time - but there is no sign of them needing to be replaced and I'm Scottish by birth - another little trip will be fine, I'm sure!

Sam.

Sam, what shockers do you run - OE ?
Keep on Truckin
Grif

Theres an easy way to sort out shock problems - just buy a landrover 101 - you have no choices - just the standard landrover shock - but they work very very well and you can't get spares easily so they'd better keep working

Now not knowing much, I put this down to them being big with plenty of oil in them so they disipate heat better (they are dramatically bigger in diameter than a 110 damper)

Any comments welcome

As for the OME comments I know of 1 supplier of them who stopped selling them because they would not honour the warranty so he had to ship out shocks to customers at his cost and comments from my overland truck driving friend who has seen alot of defenders with suspension troubles and the trouble was OME

Just cos lots of people use it doesn't mean its good Roman - after all look at MS Windows :-)



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Rich
LR101 300Tdi Ambi 'Tiggurr'

yup, OE

Sam.