Overland trucks - Euro regs
 

Just heard this from a guy in NL - don't know the details but could be encouraging.

Just got my [MB] 1719AK tested and APK (MOT) passed yesterday.
Unbelievable - due to new European regulations - my camper truck
is now registered as a passenger car with 13.700 Kg weight.
Before it was an commercial truck with camper unit registration.

Now all sorts of truck laws (eurovignet, tacho) are not applicable - at least not in Europe. Though speeds may not exceed above 80 Km/hr since it's more than 3500 Kg.

Ch

The london mayor at present, is set on the new LEZ(Low emissions zone) being extended to vehicles upto 3.5 tonne and I believe 4x4's in January 2012 in the london area, can you imagine how many people that will affect?

Is ken Livingston still the Lord Mayor?
How come he's not in the Tower as a permanent resident?

Charlie

No, the other lot got in. A bloke called Boris Johnson, likes to go on quiz shows and play the upper class twit. He isn't as daft as he sometimes looks.

Back on subject: Anyone going the route of registering a former LGV/PSV/Tank as a car should know it's a bit of a black hole legislation wise. The "loop hole" is there so that fairgrounds and other people we non-politically correct souls will call gypseys, plus the odd vintage Rolls Royce owner didn't suddenly all have to take the HGV test and bring the country to a halt. The MOT/inspection and tachograph is where it ends. If you tow a trailer you still need a C&E license, you would still be safer to keep a log of your driving hours, the insurance needs to be for a vehicle over 3500 Kg, emissions zones etc. still apply. Think truck still and you can use this as it was meant to be used and be fine. Push the boundaries (eg. sell a 4x4 with a fifth wheel conversion and all up weight of 8000 Kg) and you'll get hassle (it didn't help that the fifth wheel caravan guy hadn't checked C&U either, the charge sheet was still going to be as long as an MP's expenses sheet).

Andy

Yes, Its Boris Johnson or 'BO-JO', he is as mad as a box of frogs, he did delay the date once before, but rain clouds are looming for Jan2012, can you just imagine how many people it will affect?
London will become a 'no go' zone, but then again parts of it already are.

Give Boris his due - he allowed a long term trial for motos to use bus lanes on roads within his jurisdiction.

Back to topic-

I don't know how relevant this is to todays UK legislation but years ago car racing teams often used old coaches/buses as mobile workshops and to carry their race cars - often cutting off most of the bodywork making them effectively open, flat-bed transporters.
This was fine until one day a super-keen Mr Plod had a blitz on them at a race circuit and prosecuted many drivers for not having a Public Service Vehicle (bus drivers) driving license.
The point being that despite the changed use, the vehicle was originally a bus. Once a bus always a bus and a bus drivers licenses was still required to drive it!

Would such campers, as trucks, have previously required HGV licenses?
If so......?

Another black hole. Up to a certain time (1999 rings a bell), a HGV driver with over 12 months experience after passing the class 2/C test could drive a bus so long as there were no paying passengers. This allowed a truck mechanic to deliver a repaired bus (and do the works outing). After a time (my truck ticket is 2002) this was no longer the case and a Dennis delivery driver was pulled and done for using an HGV C license. The guideline then was that (dealing with prototype vehicles in my case), if it had more than 7 seats fitted it was a bus and you needed a bus license. We simply had the customers take the seats out. I'm still not convinced this was 100% legal and Dennis had all their test and delivery drivers trained on busses. If seven is an official number campers and workshops should pass a police check (tell 'em it is anyway!).

The solution is to re-register it as a car as above or a truck. Trouble is, change it to a truck and the brakes need to meet the current standard. Blokes trying to resurect Italian Job style Leyland Leopards as race car transporters used to make my life hell, there is no type approved ABS system and this isn't something you can just fit and forget. If you must have a chinese 6, go take your bus test!

Truck licenses are simple. Your car license depending on age says class B is either 7500 Kg or 3500 Kg. This is what you can drive. Next you add class C to go to 32 tonnes. You can add a 250 KG trailer to each. Add a bigger trailer and it's an artic, C&E. An 18 year old driving a Transit with a quad bike on a trailer behind might need a C&E, equivalent of the old class 1. Take care, the shape of the vehicle counts for little.

Andy

Hi

HGV is now Class C, and applies to everything over 3.5 tons other than a PSV, tracked, tractor, articulated etc. Class C1 is up to 7.5 tons and not a bus. You don't need a tacho unless you are being paid to drive.

Boris seems intent on getting everything altered in London to lower emissions, hearses and fire engines included. I can't believe thats really worth it for the limited miles and huge costs involved to swap vehicles like these for new ones :confused1::confused1:

:)

I think there is some confusion between private use and commercial use. if it's for private use you don't need an HGV licence is my understanding providing you have the right type of car licence.
the reference to speed limiters above only appllies to vehicles younger than a certain age (1987 for HGVs I think, more recent for over 3.5tons)

No confusion!

A Class C1 licence is up to 7.5 tons.

A Class C licence is anything un-articulated with less than 8 seats over 3.5 tons.

The vehicles you can drive or ride and minimum ages : Directgov - Motoring

So it could be a big stretched Hummer, a campervan, horsebox etc, over 7.5 tons you need a Class C.

:)

:thumbup1:

And plod is getting smart. They hang about outside events like camper and horse shows looking for 3500/7500 kg+ vehicles and trailers over the 250 Kg mark. They also did a roaring trade with the stretched limo companies (it's a bus, so they could throw in a lot of C&U, inspection stuff from VOSA as well). OT, I used to do a lot with these US imports. Electrically braked caravan trailers, cut-and-shut limo conversions, 5-th wheels nailed into the back of flatbed Transits etc. they can all really rain on your parade.

Now, if you want to buy an Ex-MOD Self propelled gun, all you need is insurance!

Andy

Not just them.
The toll gates on the Dartford, Thames Bridge/Tunnel stopped my pal's LWB Landy Defender and counted the upholstered seat positions and would not accept it as a car as it had more than 7 seats.
So a lane of busy traffic was held up for maybe 3 or 4 minutes, all for an extra 50pence!

Vehicles in the UK above 3.5 tonnes are normally taxed as private HGV for camper / overland use (advantage - cheaper tax than plg)

If its a camper then its a class 4 mot in the uk - note it must be motor caravan on the V5

If its not a camper then its a full ministry test for the truck as an hgv

Driving licence limits do apply so if you passed the test after '97 then you are restricted to 3.5 tonnes unless further tests are taken , pre '98 its 7.5 tonnes

If its over 7.5 tonnes then tacho rules / drivers hours apply in the uk

Seems to be tacho exempt between 3.5-7.5 tonnes according to the tacho exemption form

So the rules will apply in the UK if not in NL

and remember there are still local country rules for heavier vehicles like austrias charges for using the motorways

I can tell that when I get my Unimog camper to Europe, in fall 2012, from Australia via SE Asia, China, Mongolia and Russia, things are going to be interesting
I do have a commercial driving licence allowing me to drive a rigid vehicle, any weight. From Alaska.

Charlie

interesting reading from the link above. I think the get out used to be that the regs said 'goods vehicle' for the larger vehicle requirements, so if it was a private vehicle you could drive any size, but it would appear since 1997 this isn't the case. never bothered me as I have had a CE since the mid 90s anyway,

many commercial users have fell foul of the tacho laws driving a landy with a towbar. regardless of whether you are towing it should be fitted with a tacho, which also now means to operate one you need a CPC.

do you really need a tacho to drive a private vehicle over 7.5 tons?

mind you, I think you should have a class c licence, it is a big vehicle after all. personally I was in favour of the extra test being brought in for towing anything but the smallest trailers and larger vehicles. some 7.49 ton trucks are physically bigger than HGVs.

Driving a landy with a Towbar needs a tacho commercially, not sure of that one, i used to drive a toyota car carrier with tacho but the tacho was only needed when the trailer was being used

We olduns have the advantage of grandfather rights on our licenses, but since '97 , that means that most people under 32 don't have those rights now

That means that even landrover 101's (3.6 tonnes) need an upgraded license or a downgraded plate

The area of tachos for over 7.5 tonne seem to be one of those grey areas, VOSA seem to say that yes it is needed, but its difficult to get clarification from vosa on anything in my experience

Does anyone actually know of a campervan for personal use with tacho??

Mine is 9.5 tons and hasn't. American imported RVs don't that I'm aware of, certainly none that I've looked at.

What would be the point? You're not working, so what do hours worked / other work / rest etc have to do with it at all?

Jason

:)

A tacho is only required for commercial use.

Take care though, if someone bungs you a fiver to take their rubbish to the tip, or pays your Diesel to tow their horsebox to a show, you do strictly need one. There are lots of 4x4's, vans and other vehicles now fitted with tacho's to cover this. People have been done for the sake of a mate buying them a tank of fuel.

If you are on a longer run and were involved in an accident, plod would have the usual decision about if tiredness was a factor. If you have a record (meal receipts vs fuel receipts etc.) that you stuck to very similar hours to a commercial driver you'd have all the precedence on your side. No need to keep a log or run a tacho, but stuffing your timed receipts into a door pocket has it's uses.

Andy

Tachograph exemption form

https://online.businesslink.gov.uk/T..._Form_0510.pdf

Option 4 covers us up to 7500kg

Above that it implies a tacho is needed , just because vehicles don't have them then doesn't mean its legal. i'm no expert (but then no one is on this i think including dvla and vosa)

It can be a motor caravan and registered Private HGV the operative phrase being HGV. The private bit means you cannot use the vehicle for hire or reward

It's because of the gross train weight that is possible if you have a towbar. just because you aren't using the capacity doesn't mean your exempt,same as just because the vans empty doesn't get you off needing the right licence!

but then, the law appears to be far from clear on any of this!

From "Rules on Drivers’ Hours and Tachographs";

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repositor...d%20Europe.pdf

5th paragraph page 6, out of 57 pages;

"Vehicles used for the carriage of goods by road and with a maximum permissible weight (including any trailer or semi-trailer) of over 3.5 tonnes are in scope of the EU rules."

and therefore need a tacho to monitor driving hours.

If your camper carries goods it is a Living Van and requires a tacho and plating. If it doesn't carry goods its a Motor Caravan (on the V5 as such) so no plating, no tacho, Class 4 MOT same as a car regardless of weight.



Indeed, further down that pdf an exception I'd forgotton about from when I did the Class C test is the test vehicle itself, which must be, from;


Minimum test vehicle requirements for buses and lorries : Directgov - Motoring

"Category C
A rigid goods vehicle with a MAM of at least 12 tonnes, at least eight metres in length and least 2.4 metres in width. The vehicle should have at least eight forward ratios, a closed box cargo compartment at least as wide and as high as the cab"



So the Governments own website describes the test vehicle as a goods vehicle, but the top of page 12 of the first link says a tacho on these vehicles is not required. I'm sure it will have one, because of the vehicles previous life as well as for the instructor to explain its use, but its not needed.

Private HGV is only the taxation class of a Motor Caravan not its use, if it carried goods it would no longer be a Motor Caravan, and your insurance would most likely not be valid.

Crashing while driving tired is of course a "bad thing", but you are no more required to take breaks while on/in your bike/car/Landy than while driving your 8x8 MAN camper.

Totally clear now ;)

Jason

there was the case a while ago though of the bloke who crashed his landy after falling asleep at the wheel,crashing onto a railwayline and killing several people. One of the things that nailed him wasn't that he had been driving too long, but that he had been up most of the night on the internet.
in another case a businessman crashed on his way home after an overnight flight. he was told in court that he should have had a sleep before driving home.
I remember these cases because I often work nights and these cases had interesting repercussions for night workers on their first night shift.
while there is no formal arrangement for sleep and rest on non commercial driving, if you have an accident you will be held accountable if you haven't had adequate rest.