Red Diesel??
 

We are off to mori later this year and I am thinking of starting off with the aux fuel tanks full of red diesel for the run down through Spain / Morroco as I have a fair bit that didnt cost me anything!!

Can any body advise me of the legality of this, especially the Spanish bit or should I save it for my boat!??

Red
 

What do you think the legality is of running Red especially in a European country?? If you do, make sure it has been well filtered due to the amount of water often found in it usually from condensation when it's been stored in barrels, I would only ever consider using Red in an older engine and certainly not in one of the more modern vehicles with electric gizmos and mega expensive pumps, why not go the 'whole hog' and use heating oil (kerosene) mixed with some cheap veggie oil? have tried both and veggie makes the vehicle run quite smooth, where as the heating oil makes for a fair bit of vibration, I often experiment with various fuel types in an offroad vehicle on private land.

Red
 

Hi, red diesel is ordinary diesel with dye in it, as used in agricultural tractors, and those are as sophisticated as anything. It is also used for heating oil, but comes from the same tanks (I drive a fuel tanker)
It's only illegal if you get caught.
Bruce

Agree with Bruce - only illegal if you get caught.
But the question was - is it an offence outside UK? I really have no idea but doubt it.

Beware though that some ferry/tunnel operators do not permit any (or more than 5 litres) of fuel to be carried fuel cans etc - aux tanks?. Again if you get caught!

Also, as an aside, I am not aware of diesel checks taking place in UK on 'private' cars, although I have seen them on commercial vehicles.

Apparently dye can be removed by :

A--a small amount of sulphuric acid [ then neutralise with sodium hydoxide ]

B-- filter through cat litter or oil soaker granules

C-- filter through bread

I haven't tried any of the above but it might be an interesting exercise .It's not worth doing in Canada where fuel prices and taxation are lower .

When I was in the UK it was common to run military [ underseat] tanks on Land Rovers .Customs and Excise would dip the standard tank which was always full of white diesel and be unaware of the red diesel in the military tank .
Very often the bastards used to drive into farmyards completely unannounced and dip the tanks of any vehicles there .

I always ran petrol Landies but I would never stop them from dipping my tank if they absolutely insisted - ha ha .

I do not know about Spain, but it definitely is illegal to use red diesel in road vehicles in FRance. Here it is sold as heating oil sadly, as I need kerosene for the rayburn :(

Hi
As far as i know it is still illegal to run red diesel in spain, it was when i ran a truck out there in the 80's and 90's. And the fines are high.
Remember when you run red diesel it leaves a dye stain in your tank, this can be picked up if ever the customs and excise dip your tank back in the UK,and a heavy fine will follow. Hope this is of some help Skip

I've had tractor pumps ,tanks ,filter housings ,you name it , apart for maintenance and have never ,ever, seen any red dye residue and they have always been used with red diesel .
However Customs and Excise do have extremely sensitive equipment that can detect the merest trace of colour ,so if you have used red in the recent past and are now using white they might be able to pick it up .

The customs testing gear is very sensitive. I personally know farmer that put 2 gallons of red in his LR to get him to the garage. Got done about 3 months later, they wouldn't accept his story.

One thing some people seem to be getting wrong though, kerosene is very different to diesel.
Kero is a 27 second heavy oil and diesel is 35 second. Also kero has no lubricating agents in it, this will cause a mechanical pump to seize unless you mix some lube agent in it. 20W50 mineral will do the trick. But you then need to be careful if dipped because it can be detected by measuring its specific gravity.
Red diesel is not quite the same as the white pump DERV. For starters it still smells like DERV as it is not low sulphur which means it's better because it has a higher cetane rating, that means you get a bigger bang from the same amount.

But back to the original question, it is only illegal if you get caught. And unless you get a real jobsworth here in the UK it is possible to negotiate and pay the back duty. During the fuel protesting here a few years ago a lot of haulage firms were running red with an exemption from the customs and paying the duty after. I also heard about a lorry driver that filled his truck at a gas station with red by mistake, should have been putting it in the tank for the fridge unit. His boss immediately contacted customs, they faxed an exemption and the driver went on his way.

Just a comment
 

Nice post Skorpion with a lot of useful facts; there are a multitude of websites nowadays discussing and advising on biodiesel fuels - a fascinating subject for future transportation.
I would very much like to see a diesel bike on the road, asap, that can run on whatever fuel is the cheapest and most fuel efficient. I am not much interested in all that green stuff as such, but I sure am interested in my wallet getting thinner.

Well second comment actually; about 3 times now it has been said that it is only illegal if you get caught. The same could be said for speeding and for murder and just about every other statute on the books.
As Skorpion's post indicates, intent (or perceived intent) is everything.

It might be illegal to use Red diesel but it is not illegal to use Veg oil why not just put that through.

Absolutely spot on Brian E, I allowed myself to get side tracked. A DERV engine that is fueled by a mechanical pump will run happily on a 75% + mix. But whatever you do, don't put it anywhere near a DERV engine with modern electronic injection. It'll cook and gel in the fuel lines.
Oh, and I do believe that there is an exemption on duty for people using less than 2000 litres of veg oil as fuel.

Veg oil
 

Yes, there is another thread somewhere in here that shows the change of legislation that was made in the UK to allow the use of veg oils as a fuel, free of tax; this is one heck of a change from a short time ago, when the whole of a town in S Wales was stinking of "chip fat" from the fish and chip shops!
I find a problem now is the lack of clear identification of which diesel vehicles can run on this stuff; you have now fingered the reason I guess Skorpion660.
Also, I have heard of various % mixes being recommended for different cars and by different manufacturers- is this correct?
Also (how many alsos can I have?), there are a lot of different terminologies in use for the different types of refined and sources of veg oil; are they all "equal" so to speak?

All in all, it is still quite a confusing subject.

It's not too bad. If the engine is pre electronic injection you can go as high as 100% veg oil, but you'll need to run tank and line heaters in colder climates.

If the engine is the more modern electronic injection type most will run on a 5% blend, anymore than that and you run the risk of gelling. Landrover state in the owners manual for the TD5 engines no bio mix at all.

Answer, buy a LR with the 300 series engine. I can get more info, I'm sure there is a guy in the off road club running very high levels of veg oil in a Disco.

I'll PM you Dave

I think the exeption includes upto 2500 litres a year of veg oil as long as you keep adequate records.

Also, Lucas CAV fuel pumps do NOT like vegetable oil, Bosch pumps seem to be the best:thumbup1:


Trophymick

Oh why does that not surprise me? :eek3:

Lucas electrics have always been a little hit and miss, why should their pumps be any different? :rofl:

Could you clarify between vegetable oil and fatty acid methyl ester (biodiesel)? All Euro diesels are required to be able to tolerate at least 5% FAME which has lubricity, combustion and flow characteristics similar to petroleum diesel fuel. Unesterified ("straight") vegetable oil OTOH will gell at about 0-5 C., probably foul electonic injectors and is not recommended for any new diesels. FAME is made by treating veg oil with lye, reacting it with methanol, washing residual glycerol and lye out with acidified water, then making sure all the water is out. Not totally easy in your bathtub.
Vegetable oil vs. FAME ("biodiesel") are totally different substances.

Charlie

That's a bloody good question. :thumbup1:

And to be totally honest, you seem to know far more on this subject than I.

All I know is that I run a VW 'PD' DERV engine and the handbook states that you are not to use pump DERV that exceeds a 5% bio content and a mate has a LR TD5 and his handbook states that his engine is not to be given any DERV with any amount of bio content.

The guy I refer to that is running a high veg oil mix in a 300 series engine Disco is using veg oil straight from Tesco with no additives other than an
Not running a motor that is able to cope with veg cooking oil I have not taken too much notice around people that are doing this. I haven't seen the guy with the Disco lately, but when I see him again I'll ask him what he uses and at what mix.

I do remember watching the program 'It's not easy being green' with Dick Strawbridge because they were going to show you how they made bio-diesel. He mackled together an old hot water copper cylinder and immersion and poured wasted chip oil into it with a load of other fluid but the whole process was not shown in full detail and left me wondering why I'd bothered to spend the time watching it. I assume this is the FAME fuel you are talking of.

Even with the relaxation in the duty, using veg oil as a fuel still seems to be an underground activity. I struggle to find much clear information on the alternatives. But it does seem to be a common practice with older mechanical injector pump engines to simply replace an amount of pump DERV with unmolested supermarket veg cooking oil.

Yes....
too much FAME (biodiesel) can be hard on certain seals and tubing, kind of similar to ethanol in a petrol motor. Up to a point (5%, according to Mercedes in their workshop documentation) it's just fine with any of their diesel motors including new ones. The writeup says according to German law pump diesel can be up to 5% FAME without even a sticker on the bowser.
OTOH straight vegetable oil I'd only run in an old totally mechanical non common rail diesel. In hot weather, unless blended with regular petroleum diesel or with a fuel tank heating system. How much is Tesco vegetable oil per liter or per gallon? I gather fuel in the UK is about 0.75 UK pounds/liter, or US$6.00/US gallon? Currently in my area it's about US$2.80/US gal.

Charlie

.... made bio-diesel. He ..... and poured wasted chip oil into it with a load of other fluid .... I assume this is the FAME fuel you are talking of.

I dont think so. This is cleaned-up waste chip oil. A true green recycling solution but one that is too messy for most to get involved with.

As I was told by a bloke at a pump, Biodiesel from a filling station is 95% diesel 5% FAME - but as I discovered at 95% of DERV price in the UK so I only bothered with it once.

I presume this EU-sanctioned biodiesel off the forecourt is considered 'safe' for all modern diesel engines (which are just about all CRD now?) and is why manuals state 5% is OK. I suspect many could take more but as CRDs are a lot more economical that old diesel nails I could live with not running veg in one.

I am just happy to slosh in up to 60% veg oil in my Audi (mid-90s electronic ignition) in the warmer months for long runs and welcome the fact that it is no longer illegal here at up to 2000L a year. It's true though, it does still have an underground aspect to it. I read recently that Herr Diesel who invented the engine designed it to run it on veg oil in agricultural applications. Then petro diesel got in on it and here we are.

Fyi in the UK supermarket veg oil is half the price of DERV which is nearly £1 a litre and which is why we have these threads every once in a while!
One of the other ones is here. http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...al-in-uk-28054

Ch

I have run my 240GD G wagon on veg oil all summer with no problems slightly harder to start but once its running no problems , Im told a 50/50 mix is fine in the winter :thumbup1:
Twodogs

Green Diesel
 

Lads

Over in the old emerald isle we have as you might expect - green diesel instead of Red.

Anytimne I drive outside of Ireland I fill up on the Green stuff and fill any jerry cans I have with green also, - once I get out of Ireland.

The customs boys in the UK or France can't do you if you bought the diesel (and have proof - ie receipt) in Ireland because you're not dodging their tax - you're dodging the tax in Ireland or wherever your coming from.

Why pay tax on diesel in your home country if you're not going to burn it in your country!

Niallo

Niallo,

This may be not that easy. I've read somewhere that the diesel marker lasts in the tank for a very long while, which means that even if you did not use tax-free diesel before leaving the country, it may still be traced a few months after returning home. Will you be able to prove when and where it got into your tank?

Do a Churchill on it !!
 

Howdy Roman

Have also heard that the dye lasts in the tank. But - an Irish customs officer can't do me for not paying duty on fuel used in another country - say the UK.

Perhaps he could report me to the UK customs man....:confused1:

I'll take the risk and willing to do a Churchill on it anyway!!:thumbup1:

Cheers

Niallo
__________________________________________________ ___________
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, .........whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, ............. and to hell with it we'll fight the customs officers!!:clap: