Short bellhousing R380 gearbox for a 200TDI
 

Ashcroft Transmissions sent me the following when I asked them about replacing my 200TDI Gearbox and Transfer box ( I have an LT77 and a military 1.667 ration Transfer box)

"you have a few options with the mainbox and the transfer case,
mainbox :

you can either stick with the LT 77 which we are able to supply at £ 550,
rebuilt, outright or we have in stock the short bellhousing R 380 made to
replace the LT77 at £ 825, new crated, outright, these are the latest suffix
L type, you also have option of fitting an oil cooler to the R 380 which
would be beneficial in hot environments,

transfer case :

if you have the 1.667 now I think it would be safer to fit the 1.410 which
is 15% higher in high range, the disco 1.222 ratio will be 30% higher and
this may be a little too much in a loaded 110,"

Does anybody have an knowledge or advice regarding the short bellhousing R380?
Assuming it's better than a LT77?

The R380 is a much better box to drive with than the LT77 (easy way to tell them apart, oif you don't know, is that on the R380 reverse is "behind" 5th, ie to the right and back, whereas on the LT77 it's left and forward, next to 1st gear)

The "short bellhousing" bit just relates to the fact that the R380 is longer than the LT77, so needs a shorter bellhousing to keep the gearbox in the same place as the LT77 was, therefore enabling you to keep the same propshafts and floor panels.

in a production 300Tdi (where the R380 was used) the engine is mounted quite far forward, so the gearbox is more or less in the same position as the LT77 was (although not quite, as the props are different length) and a different transmission tunnel is used.

the oil cooler is a handy thing to have, although i'd use a military cooler as opposed to the civvy "euro" cooler. the military one is a proper little radiator, like the old series military FFR's used on the engines, whereras the euro cooler is just a loop of pipe mounted under the radiator.

I'd go for the 1.4 transfer box too. your 200Tdi will pull that gearing easily (especially as it would then be as the factory 200Tdi's were... 1.4:1 transfer box was standard) it'll make your truck much quieter as well as the engine won't be screaming its nuts off to keep road speeds up. you could always tweek the pump a little to get some more power out of it as well.

did you get my email the other week Darrin? re: the GPS lead.

cheers

jamie

Cheers for that - is it worth the extra money then?

Ashcroft say they can't supply the oil cooler. Is it a standard landy part?

(sorry - will reply off line about the lead - DeiselJim posted me a gps lead to Spain when mine went caput so two thumbs up to him and the friendly ways of the hubb!!! ;-)

I'd say its worth the extra money, just for the ease of driving, and as they still make the R380 but not the LT77, in years to come it'll only be harder to get parts for the LT.

Yeah, the oil cooler parts are standard LR bits, i've got a parts list somewhere on my PC, i'll dig them out.

No worries, I'll get Dunsfold onto it when ready to rock.

Does anybody else have any comments?

Here ya go:


this is the adaptor bit (# 18) that you need on the side of the gearbox, it replaces a little external pipe bypass thing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...im/cooler1.jpg



the Td5 "euro" coiled pipe
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...im/cooler2.jpg



the V8/military "proper" cooler and bracket
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...im/cooler3.jpg



part numbers
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...im/cooler4.jpg




Here is another R380 cooler, listed as the non v8 ones (so i assume 4 cylinder diesel civilian Tdi's), slightly different shape, like the ZF auto cooler really.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...im/cooler5.jpg



part #'s
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...im/cooler6.jpg

If you needed the full wolf parts list, any LR dealer should have them, they're not "secret" so no reason for not giving you them, but i think most of the bits are listed above.

Jims right on the ball - go for the R380 - much better box than the LT77 - good to see you get the latest suffix L - the gearbox oil cooler isnt essential - but if your working the vehicle hard then worth considering.

with the gearing - go with the 1.410 as ashcroft and Jim mention - its a nice mod - the vehicle will cruise better and you might get a fuel consumption improvement too (depending on which way the winds blowing!)

later
Gipper

Nicely explained, any idea on the cost/difficulty of fitting an oil cooler?

Also, is there a way to plumb an R380 oil cooling pipe into a disused 300tdi engine oil cooler (i.e the one to the left of the radiator)?

I've fitted a TGV which has it's own integral system so the oil cooler on the rad is disconnected and going spare - is this idea worth a try or more trouble than it's worth?

Not sure about the costs, knowing LR prices the pipework will be silly! you could always go to somewhere like Pirtek (also expensive though) and get some custom ones made up.
difficulty: fairly easy, just a case of jiggling the pipes in place and bolting up.

I'm currently saving for a TGV too!

I'm not sure what sort of operating temparatures we're looking at, but at a guess, i'd have thought that the gearbox oil would be much cooler than engine oil, and if you ran it through the radiator you might find that the oil actually gets heated up (by the coolant) as opposed to cooled down like the engine oil does.

FWIW i got a genuine wolf cooler off of ebay for about £15 a while back, brand new, so if you keep your eyes peeled you can pick them up.

R380 is the best,by far.in manual.

I'm gonna rebuild my rigg to autobox though :(

Cheers Jim, guess I'll keep an eye on the auctions.

The TGV is excellent by the way, new life in the old dog! If you invest in one make sure you get a savvy fitter or some very comprehensive instructions - it's not the straightforward swap it's held out to be.

Hi Richard,
im interested to hear your opinions on the TGV - ive been mulling over converting a 110 - what has it cost you all in ?

cheers
Grif

I looked at the TGV which seemed highly desirable but dismissed it on the basis that the manual R380 box can handle the torque, but only just...thought that this brinkmanship was not a good idea for desert use, that's just me though.

Apparently a lot of people use the TGV with a ZF (I think) auto box, possibly from the P38 Range Rover.

Also I believe that the TGV is no longer made due to emission regs in Brazil, and I was not impressed with future spares availability.

I decided to stick with the 300tdi and run as light as possible.

Andrew.

Hi Grif,

http://www.prinsmaasdijk.nl/landrove...hs28.html#tab3

Cost, if I remember right, was circa £3.3k and approximately 3 days of labour which I offset by flogging my old 300tdi.

A good deal when you consider you get the PAS pump, injection pump, alternator etc. etc. as part of the package.

As to whether the drive chain can take it – it all boils down to driving style - If you can resist the temptation and drive with a light foot until you actually NEED that extra grunt then I don't see any problem whatsoever. You definitely do need to upgrade the clutch though.

As Andrew mentioned, there are a couple of stories of blown gearboxes around – but when you look closely these tend to be competition related, where things pop and snap all the time.

As mechanics like to say, new into old can be a problem and after a rather harrowing fitting experience (which finished 24 hrs before setting off to N.Africa) I was expecting the worst, but not a single problem in 10,000 miles. All good.

The key advantages I think, in terms of desert work, are the better cooling and a much less stressed motor. Feels like a different vehicle.

Spares are never going to be as easy or as cheap as with the 300tdi, but hopefully I won't be needing anything major for another 100k at least.

If you download the spares catalogue (i can email it if you PM me your address) you'll see that a lot of the parts have LR parts numbers, obviously the block and pistons are different, but cam shaft is the same, as is, i think, the water pump, and PAS pump.
brake vacuum pump will fit on the side of the block in the original place, and fuel lift pump (although the TGV doesn't use one) and the FIP itself is a LR part too.

Hi Jim, sent you a pm

R380 can handle the torque of the TGV2.8

We did mount them in several Defenders/Disco's over here.
Even used in intensive desert driving

You will need to use the 130hd clutch to cope the torque though.

2.8 on an autobox is the ultimate.you will need a big (22/24) torque converter otherwise heat will be problem.the chaps from Devon4X4 are more than happy to quote on this.

"You will need to use the 130hd clutch to cope the torque though"

I'm assuming that the 200tdi will be ok with a standard clutch?

Darrin, the standard clutch will be fine with a 200Tdi, but if you've got the engine or gearbox out anyway, it won't hurt to change it over.

it's only the friction plate that is different, the cover plate/thrust bearing/flywheel are all the same as the "other" standard clutches.

130" HD plate is part # FTC 1994. looks more or less the same as the standard ones but is slightly bigger in diameter (about 5mm) and has some different spec springs in it.

Update...
 

OK, The R380 is just about to go in, and I have managed to find a HD 130" clutch so have swapped that over as well.

I'd like to put in the oil cooler for the R380, but it doesn't look there is space in front of the radiator with a large intercooler there as well. So I may go for the 'euro/td5' version - do you think it is worth the hassle and costs? Hours of driving in sand would suggest so...

Also is there any chance of you kindly emailing me the pictures that were originally posted but missing now?

(Oh, and Ashcroft only had 4 new boxes so they aren't easy to find)

I'd say that any cooling you can get on the gearbox will be a bonus.

either go for the euro "pipe" type cooler, or grab a disco/rangie autobox cooler, it looks like a long toilet brush! fits along the radiator crossmember and has considerably more surface area than the plain pipe type.

My 90 (soon to be a 110.... i;'ve bought the chassis already!) has the same problem.... allisport full width intercooler and using a TurboD full width radiator there is no room to for the cooler, although you have 3 choices here....

1) use the autobox cooler, the long one, as mentioned above.

2) get a front radiator panel off of an air condition equipped 90/110, these stick out about 1.5" or so (where the condensor fans normally sit) so you could fit an oil cooler in there)

3) depending on what radiator setup you've got.... on mine i currently have a turbo diesel radiator (which is full width compared to the Tdi rad which is 2/3 and the other 1/3 is intercooler) but i'm going to swap it back for a standard radiator, and in the space where the stock Tdi intercooler would normally live, i'm going to stick a military wolf gearbox cooler that i won on eBlag.
(My intercooler pipes go through the side of the headlight box)

part numbers and pics i'll send tonight Darrin when i get in from work... (or when i swim home.. :-)

when the 130 wolf ambulances went in to have aircon retro fitted they had to have extended radiator grilles fitted to make more space, I would presume these are a standard landy part if you can source it, just a guess but it would give you a lot more space.

You're right Moggy, these are a standard part, it's made of fiberglass instead of alumiunium like the normal 90/110 fronts.

you see loads of them at shows like Billing and old sodbury.

Darrin.... i picked up a complete ex military wolf oil cooler pipe(s) and cooler at billing, i can take some pics if you're interested? i'll be fitting the "new" oil cooler i've got to it, so if you want the old one (perfectly good, just looks, well, "old") you can have it.

Hi Jim I was just seaching in google about R380 oil cooling when I found your post, but I could not see the catalogue pictures you've posted, could you send it to me by email ?

Thanks

Paulo Noce
2000 90`defender 300tdi - Brazil

paulo_noce@yahoo.com.br

I have emailed them to Paulo - perhaps our first Brazilian landy owner on the hubb? ;-)

After 10,000km with the new gearbox it is basically ok. Nothing great, but a bit better then the LT77. Reverse is in a much more natural position and gear changes are a bit slicker.

I bought it because of it's hopefully more reliable qualities, but the front oil seal started leaking after 1500km and has just been replaced under warranty (as has the entire transfer box which is an annoyingly humerous story) so lets hope thats it's the only problem for another half a million miles....

Ho hum...