Dave, you're not hijacking.
The "footprint" or ground contact area of a tractor is very broad, and sq. centimetre for sq.centimetre does a lot less damage than a bike tyre, which cuts deep and forms rain-enhanced ruts up to 1 metre deep. Also, these farmers have to repair damage or eventually they cant pass. Bikers damage trails,then move on.

You recommend Extramadura for undamaged trails - who damaged the other trails? The reason the Extramadura trails are undamaged is precisely because bikes (at the moment), dont damage them, as they are present only in small numbers.

I'm only calling it as I see it. Trails here are used recreationally by bikes but with no huge volume as might be the case in Andorra (i don't know). The ruts and depressions in the road are clearly made by tractors, this is quite apparent. Tracked vehicles as used in forestry or construction have also torn up old paved tracks even some Roman roads as they turn with one track stationery. Farmers do very little to repair damaged tracks as in fact the tractors are pretty much unstoppable. Maybe local conditions are important, weather, type of ground etc. Like i say I can only talk about my area.

Hi dave
I'm sure you're right for your area. I speak of France mostly. Actually, bikes on farm tracks do little harm as they are usually solid enough. My main point is footpath abuse by bikes. Bikers are storing up a lot of hostility quite apart from the eco-damage. Walkers are relatively influential as they have tried to form a footpath network over many years, and very successfully. This can only be a good thing. But it is this group who are being pissed off by path destruction.

In England there are now serious moves to ban bikes from the tracks and footpaths. In Scotland, there are very few places where bikes are allowed to damage the land, not least because the peaty soil is incredibly fragile. 20 years ago, on Ben Lomond, a wheeled vehicle drove up the mountainside - the ruts are there to this day.
PS I've always fancied the Extramadura region of Spain - it seems fantastic and wild and apart from everything. You're on the Portugese side but I suppose it's the same.
PPS I dont doubt that farmers destroy what they dont understand - they do this all over Europe.
PPPSIf you dont mind me asking, how are you able to live there - do you have your own business or what? Good luck anyway - it sounds great!

Good roads
Denis

[This message has been edited by denis brown (edited 18 February 2006).]

Hi Dennis

This is clearly an issue that has to be discussed at a local level. Here there is no traditon of recreational walking therefore no friction between ramblers and 4x4s or bikers. There are lots of trails, some maintained, some not and a right to roam over private land driven by the hunting lobby. As I have previously said I can honestly say I have not seen any deteriation in trails caused by bikes in more than 10 years of riding.

I teach in a local university and run a small scale off-roading company (so I admit to a vested interest) but as I have said this is not even a debate in this area or, as far as I know, any other regions in Portugal.

Although this is an important topic I do feel guilty that this post has been sidelined so, Bossie, if you venture a bit further south and want to do some trail riding drop me a line.

Whoops - sorry I see the original post is by DavidLomax, needless to say the offer is the same. Cheers.

.. and you Denis.

[This message has been edited by DavePortugal (edited 18 February 2006).]

[This message has been edited by DavePortugal (edited 18 February 2006).]

Woohaaa....

Hey guys, I go away for a few days and come back to this!

Firstly, I think there are probably better areas of this forum to discuss these points, although they are undoubtably extremely relevent, especially in these days of ever more leisure time/money. The human race is becoming a victim of its own success on so many levels, and this is just ever such a small part of that. Without realising it most of us have unknowingly altered the path of life or nature by simply 'being there' whilst travelling. The deserted beach is no longer deserted one we have visited, the perfect empty trail and horizon most of us seek will no longer be perfect once it has been ridden. And then we tell our friends.....The only true way to restrict our impact on nature and the world is to stay at home, eat local produce, and use nothing that isnt sustainable. Purely by buying and riding bikes you have contibuted to damaging many parts of the earth, both seen and unseen. The trail erosion you speak of is only the end of a long trail of change we have all made. Sadly, living and making no impact on the earth is impossible for most of us. The fact that there are people disscussing the issue has to be positive, because dialogue means that we care, albeit that we have different opinions.

The choice for me to make is now a difficult one. Do I head to the Pyrenees, do my best to stay off routes I am not welcome on, never really being sure where they are, And contributing to an ever heavier off road bike presence. Or, do I move on South taking my tourism elsewhwhere and impacting on yet another 'untouched' region...

I am always aware of these issues. I very rarely ride off road in the UK for these reasons. I understand the pressures on the land for recreational use and dont wish to cause further problems when I can find both the time and money to ride in less pressured areas.

So, for those reasons it seems my trip to the Pyrenees is now to be altered considerably. Maybe if we all try to spread ourselves as thinly as we can, and ride as resonsibly as we can, we can do our bit to ease our impact as much as possible.

DavePortugal, if your offer still stands there may be two of us heading your way (subject to some investigation) on the 15th May, if you could recommend some maps and help us mark on some trails, or even better spare some time to ride with us yourself we would love to take you up on your offer. Cheers!

Dave

[This message has been edited by davidlomax (edited 19 February 2006).]

Hi David, I actually live on the other side of the border to Extremadura and to be honest only venture briefly into Spain on my (off-road)rides. So my knowledge of the trails there is limited. However it is an excellent area for riding - very sparsely populated with 2 great cities to visit; Caceras and Merida. If you stray into Portugal you are very welcome to stay and, if work commitments permit, I would be more than happy to take you around some trails.

Dave

Thanks Dave
How nice to be working in the University and have the moto interests too. Congratulations. Bikes and the environment need someone who is aware of the issues. I am concerned that uncaring/uninterested operators spoil things for those such as yourself.
Keep an eye on off road legal development in France, but particularly EU Directives, and you could perhaps get an idea of which way the wind blows with regard to bike access to the countryside.
It's a topic which generates a lot of heat but very little light, as people adopt entrenched positions on each side. Even having an informed debate meets with resistance, which is disappointing.

Best wishes

ok guys, sort it out offline please. I'm deleting all references to your spat now.

Let's just try to get along shall we?

Probably a misunderstanding to start with.

Grant

Thank you Grant!