Off road in the Pyrenees/Andorra
 

I'm heading down to Bilbao on the ferry Mid May and I'll be looking for tracks and trails around the Picos Europa across to the Pyranees and through Andorra. I know there are loads because every travel bike company in the world uses this area for off road riding.

My purpose for this message is to ask if there is anyone who has any green lane / offroad info to get me started ( a brief search has already led to me a few good recommendations). In return I'll happily collate and swap all the info (plus GPS data)I gather and share it when I return.

Any Takers........

Dave Lomax

I too am interested in this.

Also the Bilbao ferry, about how much one way one person with a bike? Worthwhile (looking at saving some time)?

Bilbao ferry if booked through motorsport travel (the best and cheapest way EVER)mid may is costing £163 for me, bike, cabin, three days, two nights. One way.....

Also just been directed to this fine site. Looks like all our problems are over for a while

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/vibraction/index.htm

Cheers,

Dave

We are also doing the north of Spain over two weeks in April. Any "Must See or Do" info would be appreciated.

We are riding down through West of France as haven't done that bit yet.

Thanks for the link but have language barrier

I'm not so hot at french myself, but....


If you type 'babel fish' into google, move over to the site and use the translation page facility you can read it all in english (sort of...)

Bloody clever this technology lark!!!

Dave

Yep. Whish it could do voice on the road. Save a lot of looking in phrase books.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn

Hey I always wondered how to do that...and it works.

You should be aware that in France and in Andorra that motorcycles are destroying ancient paths and trackways. I used to do long-distance walks in France, and all over the country, paths were rutted, eroded, cut by deep channels, some 1 metre deep - all caused by motorbikes. I've seen a 1000 year old pilgrim footpath near Conques utterly destroyed by bikes. Many paths are now impossible for walkers. Sometimes as many as 20 bikes would pass in a group. They cut channels with their wheels and knobbly tyres, and then the next rain carries off the loose soil. Tree roots are cut, which held the soil together. Bikes also hammered the tracks/footpaths when the ground was soft, greatly increasing the damage. I've seen this too in the Forest of Morvan, where commercial groups take paying bikers. The destruction is becoming worse each year. These old paths which bikes destroy used to be maintained by peasant farmers, but with changes in the countryside over the last few decades, no longer do so. And they would not have allowed irresponsible bikers to damage their hard work. Now no-one stops them.
This destruction and damage is why the race at Le Touquet was nearly forbidden, because bikes were destroying the sand dunes and their fragile ecosystem. A compromise was reached here with those who protect the environment, but I hope that in future, bikes on trails and footpaths will be banned in the whole of Europe. It is unsustainable.

So consider this when you want to ride trails and paths by bike.

[This message has been edited by denis brown (edited 16 February 2006).]

What are the tour companies doing about protecting their own futures? Who are the tourist companies...most probably English expats making a quick buck. What is the Spanish Tourism Board/Ministry doing about it? IF they don't regulate the use of their own tourism resources then yes it's going to fall apart. Why not set up local environmental areas managed by the surrounding communties. They look after their patch of mountain, start up a B&B etc. If they charge too much basic economics prevails and tourists go elsewhere. And yes they will most certainly allow motorbikes to use the routes. Why...because they will be able to charge more for motorcycle and 4x4's? Walkers are happy to moan about how all the paths are being destroyed and how they demand that Farmers open up their private property so that they can go marching across their land. Who the hell are the walkers to demand anything like that. Why are there more rehabilitation programs organised by 4x4 and motorcycle organisations than walkers? All the Walkers are good for is to phone up there local councils and complain about how their world is falling apart instead of doing someting about it.

For the last number of years quad bikes have been desimating the dune belt between Swakopmund and Walvis Bay in Namibia (sentitive breeding grounds of various birds). Instead of everyone pointing at it and winging about it they got the Government to do something about it. The most sentive areas are now fenced off during breeding season and as from this year you must have a permit to be allowed to ride any vehicle into the dunes. The permit money goes back into the conseravtion of various tourist attractions, game parks etc. If they stopped all biking then they would loose a substantial income.

In South africa a number of community driven ecotourist projects have proven very successful over the last couple of years.

But these concepts would be unworkable in the UK....pitty really.

[This message has been edited by Bossies (edited 16 February 2006).]

Study done here -
Basically if you keep the difference between the wheel speed and ground speed to less than 10% then the damage is negligible. Indeed the rolling impact serves to compress the surface reducing erosion.

Foot traffic on the other hand tends to disturb the surface - as the foot leaves it kicks up and creates a weak point for erosion.

------- Personal observation:
People carrying camping gear tend to take a lot of care - for there own good as much as the environment. On horse back, walking, motorcycling, 4WDing or bicycling.
People on 'day trips' tend to be the ones you have problems with!

I'll tell you why 4x4 and moto groups are sometimes involved in rehabilitation of paths - because they know very well the destruction they cause. They do not repair anywhere near all of the damage they do - which I've seen with my own eyes over thousands of kilometres of French footpaths.
Sorry - you must think this through.
PS Your remark about English expats is not necessary -it's simply your particular prejudice(and I'm not English).Your remark about walkers merely whinging is without foundation - again, try not to let prejudice defeat fact - you should read a little about the history of Walking Clubs and Organisations all over the world before such comments.


[This message has been edited by denis brown (edited 17 February 2006).]

[This message has been edited by denis brown (edited 17 February 2006).]

Frank, this is nonsense. You're saying that foot traffic is more damaging than a knobbly tyre? Come on, are you serious about this topic? Or do you simply wish to make jokes? Your "Rolling impact" with knobbly tyres does not compact the earth - it penetrates it and crumbles the soil. Think about it.
Bike riders do not stick to your 10% rule - far from it, they do enormous damage - and the evidence is there if you care to look and open your mind to fact. And many of the French bikers who cause great problems are indeed day trippers, bringing their bikes by trailer, ripping up footpaths, then going home. Others do the damage over a weekend, others still make trips from the Pyrenees to Central France using the GR (Grand Randonees) network of footpaths - that is, paths to be used on foot.

I love my bike and I love the environment - So I dont want to see bikes involved in eco-vandalism.

Ok now to get this thread back on track (no hijacking please); any further information on routes through northern Spain?

To clarify; prior to anyone jumping to prejudiced conclusions; I have no interest in riding footpaths because these routes are being abused by unscrupulous users to which I do not want to add further damage. I am merely looking for ANY scenic route be it paved or gravel road for use by motor vehicle.

Sorry I have to do a little hi-jacking! In my experience, and I can only talk about Portugal, the primary cause for damage to trails is agricultural vehicles ie tractors, end of story. Witness the ruts left by one tractor vs a dozen bikes in wet conditions - there is no comparison. I like to be aware of the environment when I ride and, thank god, Portugal is not victim to over-zealous tour operators, if I thought my riding was seriously impacting on my local environment I wouldn't do it.
End of hijacking - I would look outside of the Pyrennes for your riding, try Extremadura for empty undamaged trails and no tourists on bikes or otherwise.

Dave, you're not hijacking.
The "footprint" or ground contact area of a tractor is very broad, and sq. centimetre for sq.centimetre does a lot less damage than a bike tyre, which cuts deep and forms rain-enhanced ruts up to 1 metre deep. Also, these farmers have to repair damage or eventually they cant pass. Bikers damage trails,then move on.

You recommend Extramadura for undamaged trails - who damaged the other trails? The reason the Extramadura trails are undamaged is precisely because bikes (at the moment), dont damage them, as they are present only in small numbers.

I'm only calling it as I see it. Trails here are used recreationally by bikes but with no huge volume as might be the case in Andorra (i don't know). The ruts and depressions in the road are clearly made by tractors, this is quite apparent. Tracked vehicles as used in forestry or construction have also torn up old paved tracks even some Roman roads as they turn with one track stationery. Farmers do very little to repair damaged tracks as in fact the tractors are pretty much unstoppable. Maybe local conditions are important, weather, type of ground etc. Like i say I can only talk about my area.

Hi dave
I'm sure you're right for your area. I speak of France mostly. Actually, bikes on farm tracks do little harm as they are usually solid enough. My main point is footpath abuse by bikes. Bikers are storing up a lot of hostility quite apart from the eco-damage. Walkers are relatively influential as they have tried to form a footpath network over many years, and very successfully. This can only be a good thing. But it is this group who are being pissed off by path destruction.

In England there are now serious moves to ban bikes from the tracks and footpaths. In Scotland, there are very few places where bikes are allowed to damage the land, not least because the peaty soil is incredibly fragile. 20 years ago, on Ben Lomond, a wheeled vehicle drove up the mountainside - the ruts are there to this day.
PS I've always fancied the Extramadura region of Spain - it seems fantastic and wild and apart from everything. You're on the Portugese side but I suppose it's the same.
PPS I dont doubt that farmers destroy what they dont understand - they do this all over Europe.
PPPSIf you dont mind me asking, how are you able to live there - do you have your own business or what? Good luck anyway - it sounds great!

Good roads
Denis

[This message has been edited by denis brown (edited 18 February 2006).]

Hi Dennis

This is clearly an issue that has to be discussed at a local level. Here there is no traditon of recreational walking therefore no friction between ramblers and 4x4s or bikers. There are lots of trails, some maintained, some not and a right to roam over private land driven by the hunting lobby. As I have previously said I can honestly say I have not seen any deteriation in trails caused by bikes in more than 10 years of riding.

I teach in a local university and run a small scale off-roading company (so I admit to a vested interest) but as I have said this is not even a debate in this area or, as far as I know, any other regions in Portugal.

Although this is an important topic I do feel guilty that this post has been sidelined so, Bossie, if you venture a bit further south and want to do some trail riding drop me a line.

Whoops - sorry I see the original post is by DavidLomax, needless to say the offer is the same. Cheers.

.. and you Denis.

[This message has been edited by DavePortugal (edited 18 February 2006).]

[This message has been edited by DavePortugal (edited 18 February 2006).]

Woohaaa....

Hey guys, I go away for a few days and come back to this!

Firstly, I think there are probably better areas of this forum to discuss these points, although they are undoubtably extremely relevent, especially in these days of ever more leisure time/money. The human race is becoming a victim of its own success on so many levels, and this is just ever such a small part of that. Without realising it most of us have unknowingly altered the path of life or nature by simply 'being there' whilst travelling. The deserted beach is no longer deserted one we have visited, the perfect empty trail and horizon most of us seek will no longer be perfect once it has been ridden. And then we tell our friends.....The only true way to restrict our impact on nature and the world is to stay at home, eat local produce, and use nothing that isnt sustainable. Purely by buying and riding bikes you have contibuted to damaging many parts of the earth, both seen and unseen. The trail erosion you speak of is only the end of a long trail of change we have all made. Sadly, living and making no impact on the earth is impossible for most of us. The fact that there are people disscussing the issue has to be positive, because dialogue means that we care, albeit that we have different opinions.

The choice for me to make is now a difficult one. Do I head to the Pyrenees, do my best to stay off routes I am not welcome on, never really being sure where they are, And contributing to an ever heavier off road bike presence. Or, do I move on South taking my tourism elsewhwhere and impacting on yet another 'untouched' region...

I am always aware of these issues. I very rarely ride off road in the UK for these reasons. I understand the pressures on the land for recreational use and dont wish to cause further problems when I can find both the time and money to ride in less pressured areas.

So, for those reasons it seems my trip to the Pyrenees is now to be altered considerably. Maybe if we all try to spread ourselves as thinly as we can, and ride as resonsibly as we can, we can do our bit to ease our impact as much as possible.

DavePortugal, if your offer still stands there may be two of us heading your way (subject to some investigation) on the 15th May, if you could recommend some maps and help us mark on some trails, or even better spare some time to ride with us yourself we would love to take you up on your offer. Cheers!

Dave

[This message has been edited by davidlomax (edited 19 February 2006).]

Hi David, I actually live on the other side of the border to Extremadura and to be honest only venture briefly into Spain on my (off-road)rides. So my knowledge of the trails there is limited. However it is an excellent area for riding - very sparsely populated with 2 great cities to visit; Caceras and Merida. If you stray into Portugal you are very welcome to stay and, if work commitments permit, I would be more than happy to take you around some trails.

Dave

Thanks Dave
How nice to be working in the University and have the moto interests too. Congratulations. Bikes and the environment need someone who is aware of the issues. I am concerned that uncaring/uninterested operators spoil things for those such as yourself.
Keep an eye on off road legal development in France, but particularly EU Directives, and you could perhaps get an idea of which way the wind blows with regard to bike access to the countryside.
It's a topic which generates a lot of heat but very little light, as people adopt entrenched positions on each side. Even having an informed debate meets with resistance, which is disappointing.

Best wishes

ok guys, sort it out offline please. I'm deleting all references to your spat now.

Let's just try to get along shall we?

Probably a misunderstanding to start with.

Grant

Thank you Grant!