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10 Tonne truck as overland camper
Hi,
Aside from having to get a LGV license, are there any other constraints with running a 10 tonne truck as an overland camper (based in UK). Do you have to have a tacho, are you limited on driving hours, is insurance excessive compared with something just under 7.5 tonnes? Appreciate any advice, easy to find people who know about driving trucks but not as campers and don't know whether rules are easier compared with operating a commercial truck. Cheers Toby |
The big thing is it needs to be converted to a motorhome/camper , not sufficient to just have a box with camp beds in back . So if in Uk you need to have fixed cooking facilities , beds can be convertable from seating , it will need a wardrobe (hanging clothes) . Then you will have to get V5 changed to motorhome . If you dont do all this you will have lots of probs crossing borders , plus otrher things like having to pay MAUT in germany (truck road use charge) etc . There is a proper spec for conversion , have a look for selfbuild camper club for more advice. Another useful site is motorhomefun. HTSH
if converted no tacho not a goods/pcv so no drivers hours regs either insurance should not be much different , etc |
Things may be totally different in North America, HOWEVER......
If fully converted to motorhome (cooking facilities, bed, potty, fridge, sink) insurance is MUCH less. I know in Europe you still must obey the HGV speed signs and of course be mindful of dimensional warnings, especially weight and height. In N. America a HGV licence is not even required (mine is >12 ton with air brakes!!) although I did get one. I just renewed my registration for 2 years for $180, for a 12.5 ton truck. No inspection required, which is good since it is in Perth and I'm in Anchorage.... There are of course HGV speed limits in N. America but they are less severe than in Europe, and there are far fewer low overpasses and very old weak bridges. Be sure to get a HGV or MGV licence more than appropriate for weight (up to 12 tons), and then an IDP (Iternational Drivers' Licence) with no weight limitation. You will probably have far few bureaucratic problems regarding the wieght of the truck outside the EC. Getting the HGV licence involved: 1) going on a 90-120min "walkaround" with a former truck shcool teacher who works at a local freight company re the "walkaround" about the mechanical issues of the truck you plan to use in the test. Since it was my own Unimog, I of course knew everything. 2) Got to the Motor Vehicle Dept. and get the handbook for commercial vehicles and handbook for air brakes, take them home, read them cover to cover very carefully. 3) next day take the tests at the DMV and score well 4) Get in the queue to take the driving test at the local truck driver school, without taking the course. In my case the wait was about 3 weeks. 5) The lady said "you know your truck very well" - I had owned it for 4 years at that point in time!! It is critical that you understand all the mecahnical systems of the truck you intend to take the test in, especially safety related: brakes, steering, tires, wheels. I was able to use my own vehicle because I drove it under a private licence as a motorhome, but being over 26000 lb it qualified as a potential "heavy truck". Charlie |
Toby:
I'm not sure how the rules work in Europe, but here in North America, everything depends on what kind of licence plate the vehicle has on it, and what it is described as on the registration document (the paper that accompanies the licence plate). By way of example, you could purchase a massive semi-trailer power unit (the truck portion of an articulated lorry) here in North America, and register it as a private passenger vehicle. If you did so, you would be treated as a private passenger vehicle in all respects, excepting only circumstances where road tolls are based on number of axles, and road restrictions are based on vehicle weight. But, if you registered your gigantic Mack truck as a private passenger vehicle, you would not be allowed to operate it as a truck is normally used. You could only use it to carry as many passengers as it has seats and seat belts installed for. I quite suspect that in Europe, the general gist of things is much the same - it doesn't matter what the vehicle looks like, and it doesn't matter what a reasonable person thinks the vehicle might be, what matters is how the vehicle is described on the registration certificate, and what the nature of the licence plate on the vehicle is. Michael |
Yes thats pretty well it , whats on the papers , same in Uk and OZ , there is a still a d/licence requirement dependant on weight in Uk and EU , in UK the licence plate stays with the vehicle from first reg to when its scrapped
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sounds awesome idea! why not convert to use WVO (waste veg oil) it aint hard and will save you a shedload on fuel costs, there are always someone somewhere frying something....... check out google for more info.
some systems with double filters etc allow you to strain the oil into a container, making sure no water in it.....ie clear not cloudy and then straight into WVO tank (separate from normal tank) you start on normal diesel, wait 10 15 mins till engine up to full working temp and oil heaters good n hot then swith from diesel to WVO, just remember to switch back to diesel about 10 mins before you stop. the only downside i can see is if it aint 4WD your gonna need one hell of a winch! |
4wd is a plus but its surprising the mobility with a rear difflock and tyre chains fitted to a truck !
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Hiya
There are minimum requirements for what is inside your camper for it to officially be classified as a Motor Caravan on the UK V5, taxed as a Private HGV, as tacr2man suggests, which is what you want, no tacho, cheaper tax, the 7.5 ton HGV no entry signs can be ignored etc, because you're not carrying goods. The link below seems to be what I remember them to be. You could also try the SBMCC forum Legal Information, Requirements and Rules for Camper Vans DVLA | Campervan Life Some people have a large external "garage" for the likes of a dirt bike, so it is a camper which they use at weekend race meetings for instance. The "rules" say if you are carrying something in such a garage not required for camping (a dirt bike, even push bikes), then it is not a Motor Caravan, and then you need a tacho and all that that involves. To me that seems a little vague, as in who would be checking, and what definitively is or isn't required to camp. A US RV in the UK in my opinion needs either a towed car or carried bike so you can camp in it, being too big itself to get where you want to go, so is I think essential in that scenario. To prove it is a Motor Caravan once converted or imported too perhaps, the photos you send to the DVLA do not want to show a big empty garage space ready for "goods"! Lots of picnic table and chairs etc maybe!? As far as I can gather the UK speed limits are the same wether a goods vehicle or a camper over 7,5 tons. The rest of Europe probably have their own limits, and especially no entries and road tolls. Adrian Flux seem a good insurers, mine I think is about £300. They have to date only given me a 90 day green card though. Other campervan specific insurers can give 365 day green cards, and cover perhaps Morocco and Turkey, but sometimes don't like something that isn't mainstream. The Motorhome Facts forum has its own insurance deal which is cheap and says self build is OK, but I've not asked yet, this and the SBMCC forum are £10 a year. There are specific requirements for the Class C test vehicle which your truck probably won't fulfil, but the +/- £1000 one week course that most centres offer include everything. The DVLA took 3 months to issue my provisional licence though, so its not always a speedy process. Try to book directly with the people actually teaching you. I paid more through what turned out to be an agency, and an extra chunk for a kind of guaranteed pass scheme to try to hurry things up after waiting so long for the DVLA. The promises they made were not very truthful! I also thought 1 to 1 tuition would be best. The first day driving was a nightmare, and made me wonder if I was wasting my time. The second morning I sat in with another trainee, and being able to watch what he was doing, right and wrong, made something click and I was fine from there on. Happy travels :) |
Thanks for all the advice.
Cheers Toby |
Which vehicle are you looking at.
If Like me you are looking to import one from germany and convert it here, this creates a load of other problems. For example the period it is in the UK prior to conversion it will be an HGV and you need all the appropriate testing etc. I have yet to find the way around this and when you ring the DVLA you might as well be asking them if they like Kittens or Puppies. They are very poor with advice on anything over 7500 KG. Good luck. Neil |
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If you have a non-EU truck, or a very old truck, testing as a Class IV is a good way of avoiding VOSA as in some cases it is impossible to get the vehicle through their test. Air over hydraulic brakes, or full time 6x6 can make it impossible to pass the HGV test. My experience was very simple, although it may be different now. I spent 4 days on an Class C course and passed first time. I can now drive anything rigid (32t in the UK). I brought an 18t truck and when I went to change the tax class from good vehicle to Private good vehicle at the DVLA office, I asked if I could reregister the body type as a motor caravan. Two weeks later my V5c ame back with the body type ammended. It still doesn't meet all the requirements as the conversion is slow progress but I was never asked for proof. |
With regard to the tacho, if the vehicle is taxed as Private HGV, you do not need to use the tacho but if you test it at VOSA the tacho will need to be present and calibrated to pass. My calbration cost £40 and lasts 6 years.
TBH the tacho is a pain in the arse as it is connected to my dash and warns me constantly that it is not being used correctly. I will probably have it disconnected when I leave thre UK and have it reinstated when I return. My tacho is the analogue (paper) type with digital display and sensing. |
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Your comment about how a "normal" garage can't test it is entirely true, but why does that mean a different test? Just go to somewhere who can do the correct test surely?! A campervan could be the 32tons you are licensed to and it would still be tested as a camper if thats what it is. Why is this unsafe?? :confused1::confused1::confused1: |
Grizzly7
I couldn't agree more. Having it tested as something it isn,t, is madness. Im not sure that you can even get an HGV test done if it isn't registered as an HGV. I also think that If you had an accident and then produced the wrong type of test certificate, the insurance company would be delighted. Having the vehicle tested as an HGV creates lots of problems for the continental imported vehicle. For example the HGV test insist on new lenses on the lights whereas the class 4 test will accept stick on beam deflectors. The HGV test insist on the speedo / Tacho being in MPH and the numbers must be illuminated whereas the class 4 test will accept a speedo in KMH with a stick on overlay. And on it goes. The HGV test is the wrong test and should be avoided. If it was required then the ministry would insist on it Neil |
Re the "testing it as a wrong vehicle" issue.
I think some wires have got crossed. You can "down-plate" a vehicle in the uk; that is take a truck that was built as one weight class but run it in a lower class. This is often done for exibition vehicles. You save on road-tax and insurance and even MOT tests. I know a courior who runs a monster great Sprinter/Crafter and he has it registered in a different class because he carries bulk, not weight. It means he gets a dirty great big van with a good sized engine but with fixed costs the same as a SWB tranny. Obviously when he sells it, the new owner would want to reverse this because it can only legally carry 800kg at the moment. You obviously can't take your 20 ton "car" to the local garage for an MOT though. |
Hi
Im not sure that there has been a crossing of wires. The issue was around the fact that you could in theory have a 20 ton vehicle that is registered as a motorhome which would then qualify it for a class 4 ( Car MOT ) The suggestion was that people in this position should take it for an HGV test. Myself and Grizzly7 were simply highlighting that it would be the wrong test and therefore on paper you would be without an MOT. A gift to an insurance company when trying to get them to pay out. If VOSA have decided that a class 4 test is the right test then thats what you should have to stay legal.. Im not sure that the weight of the vehicle has any bearing on the test required. My understanding is that the type of test is determined by the registration classification on the V5.( not weight) so Im not sure what your friend has achieved by having it's weight downplated. He may have had it re registered a a Private Heavy Goods Vehicle, ( Class 4 test and lower tax ) but if he is now using it for any comercial purposes then he is totally illeagal and not insured. He would not of had to have the weight downplated to achieve this. Weight however, is a big factor in Driving Licences. Maybe your friend has a newer licence and can only drive to 3500 kgs so he has had the vehicle downplated , hence the poor payload. I wouldn't want to be involved in an accident with him, sounds a bit weary and griefy to me Neil |
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Also from 45 years of age onwards, every five years a HGV holder must have a private medical and renew their entitlements to carry on holding an HGV licence, this can only be done up to 4 months in advance of a birthday, which maybe a pain if travelling at the wrong time. Gp's are charging in excess of £100 normally for these medicals btw. |
The key to Tachos is the use of the vehicle.
If the vehicle is being used for any sort of comercial gain or hire and reward, then it is very likely that drivers hours must be recorded. If the vehicle is classed as Private Heavy Goods PHG, of which a motorhome over 3500kgs is one of the types of vehicles that falls under this catagory, No tacho is required. Even a 10 ton truck ( HGV )classed as being used for non comercial use does not need a tacho even though it would be tested at an HGV station. You can complete and sign a non comercial declaration at the time of the test. The recording of drivers hours is about use not just about size If anyone has gone through the process of importing such a vehicle to the UK from germany as an HGV and later having it converted to a PHG ie a motorhome I would love to hear how they got with testing etc and the DVLA. Thanks Neil |
trucks
hi
we got our truck from germany and it was plated at 75000kg, but is a 911 and can take 10,000kg. it is a simple procedure to register a truck in the u.k, it took us 10 mins at the local vehicle licensing office with our new mot cert from the local gov mot centre. you have to go to the same places as the hgv trucks go as they have to jack up the front to check the wheel bearings and local garages do not have the lifting gear. stay away from phoning the goverment people for info on this as they have not got a clue, we drove into the uk with temp plates for germany and this included insurance as well. most vehicles can be down plated to 7500kg before you buy it from germany and then you can drive this on a car license depending on your age, tachos are no problem no need to get it re tested as it is not a valid piece of equipment in a class 4 motorhome. it is very easy to import a vehicle from germany just do it, i would say good luck but a monkey with one hand could do this unless he has a job on a help line for the goverment...ha ha dave |
Thanks for all the advice. Assuming truck is suitable for de-rating to under 7.49 tonne, anybody know what the process is. Is it just paper based or do I actually have to take the truck somewhere? Also is it easy to reverse - ie if we do it for a while but then want the extra capacity, can original registered weight limit be reinstated?
Cheers Toby |
Hi toby.
if you are buying from germany and it needs a tuft.mot. then you may be able to get it down plated. as for up plating should not need i,t if your mobile home is more than 7,49t when empty and you need to get it mot,d then remove some kg,s from the back to pass. where are you thinking of going and how long for this helps in the should i do this or that. dave whats your truck again and have you thought about a 917 MB with a back allready built, they sell them on mobile,de from construction sites and have a door and windows allready in this would help with class 4 mot. |
Hi, its a uk truck so need to understand uk process for de rating.
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Driving motorhomes in UK
Driving motorhomes : Directgov - Motoring importing a vehicle Registering an imported vehicle : Directgov - Motoring downplating Downplating - Legislation Help Desk - Wheelbase Engineering Ltd. - Chassis Modification Trailer Manufacturers Demountable Systems. |
The need for tachos was enacted following EC Council Regulation No 3821/8 which basically identifies the need for goods (trucks) or passenger (coaches) vehicles to be fitted. There are dozens of exceptions and exemptions in the UK domestic legislation, and it’s altogether muddy.
If your registered body type is ‘truck’ or similar then you will usually need a tacho to get through a test as this implies the carriage of goods. One useful exemption is available whereby if your ‘truck’ is under the 7500kg limit you are able to declare it will never be used for the carriage of goods and in this case VOSA will happily accept the signed exemption form (available on their website) and test the truck w/o a tacho. There are other exemptions but none are ever likely to be of use to overlanders. If your registered body type is ‘motor caravan’ then it’s a presumption that the vehicle is no longer a goods vehicle and is therefore outside of the EC directive so doesn’t need a tacho. However, if you carry anything that could be deemed goods, you may find yourself in trouble. Goods do not include personal effects so as long as you only have with you what you need for camping, and don’t engage in commerce, you should be OK. It would probably be a matter for the courts to interpret on a case by case if you were ever challenged. Motorcaravans of any weight can be subject to class 4 tests, but these can, I believe, be carried out at a VOSA test station so you can still have a thorough VOSA test if you wish. Probably wise to be honest as they are set up to deal with the size and weight of trucks and in most cases understand the different systems better, such as air brakes for example. In summary, if your registered body type (V5) is truck, or goods vehicle of any type, you will need a tacho in a 10 tonner. If you are registered as motorcaravan then you will probably be OK without a tacho depending on interpretation by the officials you are dealing with. Probably worth pointing out too that taxation class is an entirely different and barely related entity to body type. I agree with others that there are far fewer problems all round (not just tacho related) if you can keep under the magic 7.5. |
It has to be converted before the MOT or will be subject to the tachograph and LGV test.
As someone mentioned earlier converted to a motorhome it's class 4 MOT but small garages may not be able to jack it up. I took my Bedford to two garages that do lorry MOT's but they didn't have the approved jack for the test. |
Hi Bedford MJ,
Had a look at your truck construction photos, very nice! I notice that you have attached the frame to the chassis with bolts through hangers.....do you have spring mountings further up the chassis towards the front? We used 3 spring montings towards the front on our truck and then used body ubolts towards the rear. Always interested to see how others have done it. |
Further to what I think DTH was alluding to , ie chassis flex , have you tried driving the vehicle over uneven terrain as I think you might have problem with the chassis twist that these vehicles experience especially with regard to the camper structure and its connection to the cab , better to find out here than on a unmade road miles from home ? Other than that you have a really nice unit there .
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Yep. What we did on our truck was to put a long M14 bolt through the body frame hanger, dropping it through the chassis mounted hanger, then push a chunky spring onto the bolt and tighten a chunky washer and nut up against the spring.....so to allow a degree of movement as the chassis twists.
You can see what I mean on page 004 of this CBF download (bottom left picture) http://storage.cbf.uk.com/pdf/BODYMOUNTINGBRACKETS.pdf |
Good link DTH.
I also share the torsional stress concerns for BedfordMJ but I guess much depends on intended use. I live near Highwood Horseboxes and would be happy to look at the truck and share some ideas. |
From looking at bedfordmjs's truck in the flesh at the self build clubs agm a few years ago, it is impressive but I don't think he intends to take it across africa et al so it wasn't something that was a design constraint. Getting on and off campsites is the off roading that it does I believe
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In which case, there will more than likely never be an issue.
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How important is it that the first mounting is spring and not rigid? |
I don't think there can ever be a definitive answer when building one-off vehicles. Much depends on intended use. Horsebox construction in the UK at least usually sees the habitation box (overcab luton included) flared into the vehicle cab and they don't seem to tear themselves apart in highway / getting-on-and-off-fields use. Builders seem to pay little attention to the concept of chassis twist. Maybe the extra heavy duty floors they use to support the weight of horses helps keep the whole structure rigid.
I suspect, though, that if they ever approached the limits of suspension in a cross axled manner then things could turn bad pretty quickly. |
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