Cheap alternative overland vehicle
 

How good can you expect a Prado SX be for under £2500 ... OK its well known the heads fail, so invest in a 3.0 head as part of your pre trip departure,

Someone else has the same idea
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/73354-ExPo-Project-1991-Land-Cruiser-Prado-SX-(LJ78)

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3622092.htm

cheers
M

I look at this question from potentially another point of view, which is how much MORE reliable is a vehicle for which you drop 2-4x as much money?

If you test drive the car, identify issues, know what it costs to fix, replace, deal with, then you are in a good spot. If you can identify the high likely fail points and know the cost to mitigate them, then you'll know if it truly a good deal.

I did this last year with two Subaru FOresters. We purchased them, fixed them up (had to rebuild an entire engine) and shipped them to the UK and then drove to Cape Town.

Great news - they made it! Total cost for the vehicles and vehicle work was about $4,000 USD. So, you can definitely do it and can definitely save a lot of money by doing it.

One of the big things we saw is that a lot of people would "overbuy" as in getting more vehicle and more performance parts than they actually would use and of course not actually knowing how to utilize all the options (winch, etc.)

Plus, it is kind of fun taking a $1,000 beater you buy with 240,000 miles on it and driving it 15,000 miles across the globe.

Only started noticing these when I saw a couple in the Moroccan desert but how about a Dacia / Renault Duster as a bargain priced Overlander?

From £8995 brand new, buy do your trip and then sell on again?

there isn't a new vehicle on the market in Europe I would take on a long remote trip. Too much electronics, too sensitive to poor fuel, too complex.

Take a vehicle you know well, and have preferably worked on yourself, as above.


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I agree on the electronics point to an extent. As far as fuel goes, you generally are okay as you can bring octane booster and cars these days have knock sensors and can regulate themselves in the event of poor fuel. I've gotten some terrible fuel in Africa and Central Asia in the past, but the cars kept on going.

The good news/bad news with electronics is that you end up with a highly efficient vehicle, but with a million sensors that can break or have issues. As long as you know where those sensors are, how they work, and you bring a code reader, you can generally diagnose and fix most issues.

When I've been on the road, we seem to always debat which is more reliable..the new car, or the 30 year old car. In the end it seems to always come to a stalemate! Each have positives and negatives and I think it comes down to the person behind the wheel and his/her knowledge and experience.

I first noticed Dacia in use in France in 2007; now they are being marketed in the UK, including the 4x4 Duster, but the price of £9K is for the base model i.e. 2 wheel drive - the 4x4 is priced at much more, but I can't remember how much more. The UK Renault dealers should be selling these if prices are needed.

Personally, I detest carrying the depreciation on any new vehicle. :(

Couldn't agree more. Let someone else take that 20% or so hit.

Does the UK have a good market for certified used vehicles? ...or dealers that specialize in guaranteed/warenteed used vehicles? We have CarMax over here in the US and while theyre prices are hit or miss, the vehicle quality is extremely high.

My point is that the amount some people spend on getting an old car up together is more that the depreciation on a brand new low cost model and then there is the fuel savings as well to factor in.

The base model is basic, but that's the point they are also built in India, Brazil, Russia, Romania and Morocco so are well known.

The base 4x4 is £10,995 btw.

they first came to the UK in the 80s, then disappeared without a trace. There's every chance that could happen again (as with the niva). Then, you'll really see what depreciation is!

The diesel problem is due to the low sulphur requirements of euro 5 engines. neither the vehicle electronics or octane boosters will help you there.

You have to do some work, when your car ist EURO5 (managed DPF).

It has to be unmanaged (Euro4) or less - or the DPF have to be disabled. It is possible to do that, on some brands..

I did a transafrica with a new (2011) car, with euro4, no issues.

unfortunately that then raises the potential for your vehicle to fail it's MOT. Even though you may achieve the required emission standards you have modified it to make emissions worse than the manufacturers standard. Depends how friendly your garage is. My understanding is this would actually, theoretically, be illegal.

But, it's a bit of a minefield!

Yes it's a minefield but having said that there are plenty of companies in the UK who will remove your DPF, reprogramme and remap your ecu and make any sensor adjustments necessary. Euro 4 or 5 isn't an issue for them.

Unless things have changed the MOT for diesels only covers a pretty primitive smoke test?

I threw the CAT away on my wife's VW 2.5TDi years ago and have never had any issues getting it through the MOT.

Do you think it's the high sulfur content that causes an issue, or the "dirty" fuel? For example you need to use high quality, low ash, engine oil in DPF vehicles. My thoughts were that the DPF would clog if used with dirty fuel and constantly request a regen. Eventually shutting the engine down in to limp home mode. Anyway, as I say above, pretty easy (if expensive) to chuck the DPF away.

My old school, fully mechanical, MB engine seems to love high sulfur diesel. Smokes like hell but runs really smoothly:thumbup1:

It's too little information for me to hold an opinion: I would want to know much more about a specific vehicle, it's history and how it has been maintained.

As a short answer, yes. There is a strong market for pre-owned/second-hand, = two terminologies that are in use for such vehicles. There are also many dealerships for all standards of vehicles and it is possible to buy a warranty for up to, say, 3 years on pre-owned cars/bikes, while many dealers will offer their own warranty.

That's interesting - I thought (in the UK at least) that if any vehicle had a certain level of emissions compliance when new, you had to maintain that level throughout its life ie you would doom the vehicle to failing the emissions part of its MoT if you removed or changed anything that had the effect of upping its emissions.

yes, that's correct, but at the moment MOT testers are mostly overlooking it, depending on how friendly they are! As I said in my previous post, it's a theoretical breach but in practical terms at the moment it doesn't seem too much of a problem as long as you can pass the required emissions test.

some countries are basically banning any mods at all now! I know of one guy (in Hungary I think it was) who had a suspension lift on his Hilux and was stopped by the police. He was told he had to return it to standard spec again.

Fitting protection bars or replacement bumpers on new vehicles is very difficult now and even on older vehicles fitting a bull bar is illegal (although you can get away with it on an older vehicle as long as it is a winch bar and has a winch fitted).

As above, it's a minefield!!

Let's not forget that the car I mentioned which started this debate on the legalities of removing a DPF is in fact a petrol powered vehicle and does not have a DPF :Beach:

Our colleagues in the two wheel department are using modern fuel injected bikes, why not for 4x4's?

Just asking, btw not after a fight bier

I drive a 20 year old Hilux daily and have a Land Cruiser for trips away but with fuel costs so high, I'm considering a change.

These two views are opposites (nothing wrong with that per se); if selling on a vehicle at the end of a trip then the particular vehicle does not become well known, although the vehicle model is known better. In any case, the depreciation will be "realised" in that the capital cost of a replacement vehicle has to be found (or the trips cease).
I think that quite a few motorcycle riders do sell on, but the capital costs involved are much less; having said that, recently I spent less on my 17 year old L/C than on buying most of the motorbikes I have purchased in the last 14 years.

Well yes, but there are many who swear by carburettors as fitted in bikes from the 1990s and 1980s + there are incredibly long arguments in the bike threads about the relative merits of FI versus carbs.
I have never seen anyone in the HUBB arguing for carbs to be used on petrol driven 4 wheel vehicles.

Will the Toyotas run on veggie oil, and won't one of them be enough?? Just asking also.

yes, fair point re petrol engines, hadn't considered that!:innocent:

I would say though the depreciation on the new vehicle will cover an awful lot of fuel for one of your other vehicles! On a fully loaded petrol vehicle fuel consumption may not be that great, and, as above, you could reduce your diesel costs by mixing your diesel with cooking oil. Diesel is also cheaper than petrol in most countries.

I am rebuilding my old HJ60 at a cost in excess of £10000. some have suggested that's crazy because the car will never be worth that much, but my argument is a new car will never be worth what you paid for it either!!

Like you, I have a hilux and a landcruiser, but the hilux is a 2012 and build quality just isn't up there with Toyotas of old, and the engine is euro5 so needs low sulphur diesel, and , although I trust it's reliability, the complexity concerns me.

Attractions of the Hj60 for me are, I have owned the vehicle for 8 years, and intend to keep it for at least 20 years so depreciation isn't an issue. Linked with that I am familiar with the vehicle and it is tried and tested in the field. Build quality is incredible, it's totally over engineered and it's relatively simple and, err, sentimentality. Just can't bring myself to sell it, we've been through too much together!:oops2:

BTW, I'm in Dorset too, where are you?

Honestly,

I'd definatly start from a cheap base vehicle that has good potential and spend the "spare" money on uprating/upgrading as you need it to be.

Because even a new car will need to be modified for what you're looking for and that means you're spending even more money than the new price + that the mods most likely invalidate your warranty anyhow.

As for the scenario of cooking oil mixed with the diesel.

On a petrol car, like the Prado, you could LPG convert it and maybe ensure, that you have an option to refuel from gas bottles, if LPG isn't available. Gives you a second/cheaper option for fuel. With a dual pickup on the LPG tank you could even also feed gas applieances like a cooker then.

/M

LPG is certainly worth while if you are going to eastern Europe. It's widely available and very cheap. Can't see the gas bottle idea working though. there are problems with the connections, they are extremely heavy and I would have serious safety concerns about them. Just fit an LPG tank extra to the main petrol tank. That's the standard way to do it.

I had that on an V6 Petrol L200 Mitsubishi, a 60L tank netween the chassis rails, was well tucked up so no risk of damage. Best MPG I got was 30mpg towing a motorbike on a trailer. With LPG at that time half the cost of diesel that represented the equivalent cost of doing 60mpg, not bad from a 3litre engine!!

When I had a landrover 101 ambulance made into a camper I had a 100 litre tank under the rear bed. Fuel consumption on petrol was about 10mpg, on LPG 8, so the conversion paid for itself pretty quickly.

If you go that route there are a lot of cheap big engine petrol 4x4s out there because people shy away from them due to the fuel costs. A good quality conversion (and it pays to have a good quality one) is £1400-2000

The other big incentive for older vehicles in the UK is road tax. A big engine vehicle (I now a Dacia isn't one of those!) can be eyewateringly expensive to tax, wheras a pre 2000 model is more reasonable.

Obviously my post wasn't clear enough then. Of course you need a LPG tank. You won't get it certified without that. As I specified a tank with dual pickup will let you feed engine and cooker.

The gas bottle idea was to fill/transfer gas into the tank, IF you can't get LPG on a normal filling station. An alternative to fill the car, not to carry around or as a replacement for the LPG tank.

/M

A couple of miles outside of Poole.

One of my boys loves to come travelling with me and now he is older, taking him out of school for a couple of weeks to add to the Easter Holidays seems unfair on his education, so it's now six weeks during the summer holidays for a trip away (although we sneaked in a 3 week trip to Moroc last Xmas) meaning we are heading to the Balkans this year. This got me thinking that for the trips I have planned for the next few years, I don't really need a "full on" 4x4 with the running costs to match, so was looking for a replacement for the Hilux maybe.

I would keep the Land Cruiser I guess for Desert trips, but was thinking of something far more modern and economical as a daily drive and for some trips away.

If money was no object sometime like a VW Transporter 4motion would suit me fine, capable enough for finding some nice camping spots and get away from it all and not to big for a daily drive.

Don't underestimate the Syncro and 4Motion Transporters. They're extremely offroad capable once on lifted suspension. Obviously, there's only one ratio for the gears, but that only requires a different type of driving.

/M

The Hilux is long in the tooth now, but as Moggy with his LC, I'm reluctant to sell it as I've had it for 13 years and it does do 30 mpg pottering to and from work. It would cost a far amount to bring it back to a high enough maintained standard to think of going on a trip in it and to be fair, it's very uncomfortable off road and not that capable either, it is tough as old boots though.

Having two allows one to be off the road for me to carry out maintenance and allows the Land cruiser to have an easy life when not on a trip, like it hardly ever gets driven on a salt treated road.

Both will run on a mixture of veggie oil btw.

I realised that, what I was saying was don't replace the petrol tank with an LPG one, it's too limiting, fit it as well. I can't see any way you would be able to transfer from cylinders into a tank.

hey hey, I'm in blandford!

I agree. You definatly should keep both petrol and LPG tanks. As for refueling, I've seen underslung tanks with that sort of option, so it has to be doable.

/M

It's a tough call IMO; as you indicate, there is a useful purpose to each of the vehicles. In my case, I keep a petrol driven universal-jap-car "in the background" for general use (actually it's south Korean).

I've read elsewhere about the veggie oil capability of these old diesel engines, but I have not bitten on that particular issue as yet; I may do so, as the UK summer weather comes into play.

Remember that you only take a hit if you buy brand new and actually sell the vehicle.

I bought my Defender 90 brand new tax free in RAF Germany in 1995 for 14,105.50 GBP

I still have it and I haven't lost a penny on it - Ive had the enjoyment of driving nearly every mile on the clock of a brand new vehicle, I know its been run in properly and used hard but serviced well, its never let me down in 18 years and I know it inside out and back to front

Even though it now needs an overhaul, like Moggy I can spend 6-8000 GBP (engine and drivetrain overhaul, new galvanised chassis, new panels, interior etc) and end up with basically a brand new vehicle as good for overlanding as any Tdci/Td5 juke box

If I bring it to Canada in a few years I could actually still make money on it as they are collectors items over here, there's an ' 86 D90 on Kijiji (gumtree over here) currently for $40,000 CAD! (25,000GBP)

http://alberta.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehi...AdIdZ480991663

But I will never sell it either!

so, your in Poole Gipper, that makes three of us in the area on this thread!

keep your eyes open for a 12 plate hilux invincible, dark grey metallic with a mountain top on the back.
give us a wave!

I'm also local, being down in Bridport when I'm not working :D

blimy, practically got our own HUBB down here!!

My Folks now live in Ferndown and I mostly live in Canada (I married a Canadian bird) but I get back to the UK now and again, We should all meet up for a few pints sometimebeer

sounds good, 'pull up a sandbag, I'll tell you a story!'