New Defender announced
 

BBC News - Land Rover confirms new version of its Defender model

Ch

Thanks for posting.

Looks more like a Freelander in the picture on the BBC website. Shapes are definitely heading into the 21st Century though, now you just need to hope that it will get some quality diesel engines as well...

Looks like another plastic chelsea tractor....

And as it has be to cheaper and won't be sold to the military, you just know it is going to be plastic and full of electronics...

Sad times....

2015 or earlier?
 

2015! Wow, I can't wait.

The last time I saw the UK military close up they had lots of LRs in all sorts of configurations, so, subject to the MoD procurement rules, I can't see why they won't continue to buy LR in the future.

In the meantime, the French Gendarmie have a number running about in their bit of the Alps and the Italian armed forces have shed loads of them, both their army and the Caribinieri. The Italians used LR extensively in the Balkans.

"Land Rover insists its next Defender will be a rugged workhorse, having ruled out moving it upmarket as a luxurious car that simply looks butch on the outside," says BBC business reporter Jorn Madslien.

is this guy looking at the same picture? it doesn't look much like a rugged workhorse to me.

He probably means for a drug dealer, silly :innocent:

John

landrover nearly lost the MOD contract when the 'Wolf' was designed.
They didn't win it because they had the best or most suitable or capable vehicle. they won it because it was politically unacceptable for them to lose it, at that time.
I agree with the above comments. that is not a workhorse vehicle in the pictures, it's a chelsea tractor.

There's a discussion over on the Adventure Bike Rider site about the new Defender entitled "Have they lost their collective minds?" Most posters, even those waving a Union Jack whilst typing, seem to think they have.

Why doesn't TATA just keep making the Defender as is but shift production to India? Can't think of a vehicle made these days that's more suitable for being built by hand.

That's ridiculous -no way an Indian manufacturer would be able to build a Defender correctly.
For a start they use metric, so panel gaps would be in mm not inches.

Yep, very true, which makes me think that LR will continue to win the future contracts for political reasons, assuming that they continue to be sourced from the UK (or at least appear to be via the marketing).
But the Wolf worked great and was a speedy vehicle around the highways of the Balkans :nono:
In contrast, the Fwd Control LR for towing guns was a disaster. Most unfit for purpose.

Perhaps by 2015 the Defender will be the chelsea tractor and LR will be producing a "Willys Jeep" for the military market which, in fact, is rather small, especially for modern day factory production rates.

There again, following the political issues of years ago about Westland helicopters Vs the USA product and the possible tightening of procurement rules at the British MoD, the Brit military could end up driving Hummers (HumVee).

Well hullo - it's a Landrover Defender we're talking about here, not an Audi A8. A car that can be fixed with a hammer in the field, not one that has to be hooked up to a computer in a laboratory by someone in a white coat just to change a headlight bulb. Am sure a few uneven / wider than average panel gaps wont matter.

If you believe wikipedia

The Defender is to be replaced by the Ocelot with the MOD ordering 200 of them.

After years of avoiding Land Rovers because of the dodgy build quality and unreliability I bought a new Defender eight weeks ago. Very pleased with it so far, build quality is'nt as good as the Ford and Jeep 4x4's I've used in the past (for my business, up in the dales) but it is robust and definately fit for purpose. The Ford diesel "Puma" motor is returning about 31mpg so it's doing better than the LWB Wrangler I've just traded in.
I think that, if Land Rover and their new masters, can produce a new Defender that resembles an old Defender, is still fit for purpose i.e. work and is reliable and cheap to run then they'll be onto a winner.
If they make a new Defender that just looks like a cheaper Freelander, D4 or RRS (like the press-release photo) then they won't be bought as working vehicles. Not by me anyway. If anyone wants to buy something like that just to ride around town, fine, let them get on with it. It's their money.

p.s. speaking of reliability, I've just sold the uber-reliable GS12 and bought a new Ducati M1100evo, am I feckin' bonkers?

Think you misread my post there buddy :wink3:

If anyone else built Defenders and get the gaps right, 90's will become 88's again :laugh:

Interesting, but the Snatch (the VPK) is just one variant of the LR family in the UK forces and it is a pretty specialist one at that and it must have had a very small production run. it has been heavily criticised and is often not considered to be fit for purpose; but that has been the furore over their use in Afghanistan whereby, IMO, they were put to use in tasks for which they were never designed.
Wiki is pretty much up on that aspect if anyone wants to follow the links.
Snatch Land Rover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The snatch is as much a pig to drive as the LR ambulance conversion; the LR fire-engine fit is probably also a pig (I haven't driven one of those) but at least it doesn't have to go very far; just around a few airfields on fairly smooth bitumen.

Despite these new specialist vehicles, such as the Ocelot, coming into service, the army will still need a general purpose run-around LR type of vehicle; such as the Wolf.

The army already has a lot of wolfs, I would be surprised if any more were to be bought as everything is getting bigger and heavier.

As an example Fitted for radio Wolfs have had to have a large rear anti roll damper fitted to overcome the weight of the radio fit; they are also are running rear tyres at 60psi, both of which have not helped off road grip.

LR are too small to allow modular up armouring to current required standards. Future military vehs are likely to be bigger than current models to allow such up armouring, even if thats not needed to run to and from the chippy when not deployed.

The old 110 were rated for 10 soldiers, driver, comdar and 8 in the back.
Most Wolf ar rated at a maximum of 6, based on seatbelt fit in the rear.

A fited for radio wolf is 3, driver comd and 1x signaller provideing that personal equipment is stored in a trailer.

The good news is that there may well be some for sale....

Hitler reacts to LR DC100 announcement
 

Utter rubbish.
the modern defender is full of electronics, and electronics and landrover are not too words that sit too well together. And you do need a computer to fix many of the problems on the newer defenders, and this proposed one will be even worse.

whilst not defenders my mums TD5 disco sat uselessley in the drive because some muppet routed the electrics through the highly noxious environment of the rocker box, and as you mention headlights, what about the brand new range rover on the landrover stand at a show that wouldn't start because water in the headlight caused a short which shut down the computer. took the land rover technician 45 minutes with his computer to solve that one. And what will you do when the immobiliser on your defender fails, as happened to some poor chap in China in his rangie who then had to trailer it several thousand miles to a dealer to get it fixed.

Thats why I run an old truck with no electronics. I wouldn't touch any newer 4x4 for an expedition, least of all a defender, and thats from someone who has owned several landrovers, has the T shirt and the hat!!

Your not allowed to carry soldiers in the backs of landrovers anymore under most cicumstances (war fighting excepted). the military have also stated that they want a common manufacturer for all it's weights of GP vehicles. to my knowledge only Ford and Mercedes (AKA unimog) can do that.

The snatch was fit for purpose. the problem was some idiot then put it into a role it was never designed for in an environment it wasn't designed for, because some other idiot hadn't spotted what everyone else had, that the most likely theatre of war for the last 30 years has ben the desert.

The 101 ambie was a pretty good tool. I took one round the hill rally course for several years doing med cover. I also took a wolf version and it was dire, much prefered the 101. the ambie body is just too heavy for the landrover. The Wolf ambie was also never fit for purpose as delivered because the original design brief was wrong. In reality it probably still isn't.

IMHO unimog is they way to go for soft skinned ambies, for armoured, well, how about one like the danish army have (see below)!!

The hummers are pretty rubbish IMHO. they were built by comittee and have a lot of compromises. they are too large and unweildy and I have seen them stuck in places than landies sail through. the ambulance versions developed severe stress cracks around their bodywork.

Moggy - oh my goodness me. I hope I didn't disturb your sleep last night:D
http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...oninternet.jpg

Seriously though - I agree 100% re electronics - a bloody nuisance. I was referring to the mechanical side of things.

:thumbup1: great cartoon, spookilly close to the truth. still haven't found that camera in my office!!:eek3:

New Defender
 

Land Rover Freelanders and RR Evoque are using a newish 2.2 diesel, imagine thats what the defender will havr to use - so cetainly a common rail, which rule ous servicing in the field with out computers !

UNfortunately I think this is a bit of a toughhie for LR damned if they do and damned if they don't!

Yeah LR are in a difficult position, they have to sell vehicles in North America and Europe to help cover develpoment costs and 'improve the marques image' so any engine has to meet emissions legislation on both continents, be smooth refined, powerful and fuel effecient.

Yet for 3rd world use, we need simple reliable under stressed engines that run on crap diesel and can be bush repaired without a laptop/technician

On several occasions when working for Land Rover UK as an employee I suggested they make a 'bling' new defender for NAmerica/Europe markets on a modified T5 chassis with air/independent suspension, CRD engines and all the electronic gubbins - and a coiler with live axles, a proper 3 litre or more non CRD engine with minimal electrics for ROW (with some build quality please)

I get thoroughly annoyed with LR's insistance of using 2.5L or smaller engines in Defender/Defender replacement - start with a decent sized understressed bloody engine and make it bombproof.

Im sure LR will follow the herd and produce a plastic POS that sells well - and Id buy one here in Canada to replace our ageing gas guzzling Discovery, but I will keep the 300Tdi Defender for overlanding.......

Unfortunately the only defender (series) landrover with a right size engine was the V8 . They dont seem to get the big engine /low stress since they went from series which was a medium engine/low stress unit. The 300 tdi was almost there pity it wasnt a six 3.75ltr.
It would be a good idea to have a big engine that has all the emissions crap , but can go to a dirty but usable mode when a sensor or chip fails !
And as already posted they need to realise they make enough plastic poser vehicles and need to retain 1 workhorse that is suitable to modify to "multirole" . JMHO

The other purchase the mod have done is the panther - an iveco base product with a boat like hull that deflects blasts and no one sits over a wheel.

Again heavier than 3.5 tonnes, the landy isn't up to it for the military nowadays. Now if landrover had carried on developng the 101 into the lama into ? they might be there but even waving the flag probabily isn't going to get them massive orders now

Ahhhh the one Tonne, I remember flying down the M4 in a 101 doing 80 mph towing a Rapier missile Launcher about 20 years ago.......much more capable than the 130 defenders we got to replace it and the PTO winch was awesome!

shame the Llama didnt take off, but the requirement and vehice size required for Military ops and armour has outgrown most manufacturers.

The size of the IEDs/suicide bombs being used in country currently will take out most vehicles short of a MBT, seems even the Panther is under protected too... or like usual, its been put in a role it wasnt designed for by the MOD:

Defence of the Realm: Costing lives

What the boys are up against, the truck that slows and pulls over to let the convoy past is packed with explosives:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4uJFQZ96eIshould

even if you were in an M1 or Challenger 2 locked down, this would give you a nasty headache.


Its a shame the Td5 engine wasnt a 3 or 3.5 litre.....the concept was good, the end product was crap (IMO)

If you look back to the very first landrover you can see the ethos that still commands the decision making today.
when they designed the first landrover they raided the rover p4 car parts bin.
when toyota developed the first landcruiser they raided their truck and bus division.
landrover are still basically producing cars that go off road. toyota build small trucks that go off road. thats why landrovers traditionally have small engines and landcruisers have big ones.
look at the engineering on a landcruiser and it is massive compared to a landie, at least my H60 is!!
Until landrover have a sea change in the culture of their approach they will continue to build vehicles that are fundamentally under engineered for what some of their end users want to put them through. The defender needs to be a commercial vehicle for the commercial market. I think the santana is more like the way defenders should have gone

Some interesting thoughts coming through on this. I don't like the idea of the new one either, but if I woke up next to it I probably wouldn't kick it out of bed!

I have a Series 1 Landie, and have had since 1987. Basic is the word. It still works (sometimes) even after nearly 55 years.

I have a V8 Defender. The engine is the sweetest, most forgiving unit - totally understressed in this unit but when in petrol supping mode (towing, offroading, errrrrr, onroading too doh), you have to be accompanied by a petrol tanker. She's on LPG which is a nasty compromise.

I also have a Santana, the so-called "Series 4". The Iveco engine is better than anything i've experienced in a Landie and the whole concept is rugged, tough, useful, fit for purpose.

I still prefer two wheels though :scooter:, or heaven forbid shank's pony!

Maybe the way forward after the new low-fat decafeinneated plastic and electronic Defender-lite comes out is for people who would have bought traditional Defenders to go for Santanas instead.

I was tempted by santana but the service support is limited and reasle in this country not great. thats the problem, my H60 is now getting difficult to get some parts for, wheras you could build a landrover pretty much from scratch if you wanted to. the availability of parts and extras is a major bonus for LR. My H60 had got to the stage of spending serious money to keep it fit for another 20 years. I thought long and hard on deciding wether to refurb the cruiser of buy an older landie (I wouldn't touch anything from 98 on)and spend the money refurbing that instead, purely because of parts availability. I've owned a 101, a series 3 88, a 90 and a 130 but in the end it had to be the 'cruiser because non of the others can come close in terms of reliability and strength, so now the cruiser has gone in for a 2 year 10 grand rebuild which will hopefully see it fit for another 20 years, parts permitting!!!

The G Wagen PUR (Pure) is supposed to be a back to basics model, cloth seats, rubber mats etc. Nice in theory, based on a 30yr old design, de blinged, but take a look. It’s still crammed full of electronics, engine a common rail diesel which has a reputation for not liking any sub standard fuel and price tag to make your eyes water.
I guess any manufacturer is stuck with engine management to deal with emission legislation.
So even if they want to get back to basics they are stuffed. (not sure MB really did of course. Build something with less and charge more. Nice work if you can get itJ
At least all the electronics are all together in a water proof box in the cabin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9E0LOLOLVw

yes, got to agree. the march of the green brigade has scuppered any possibility of basic engines in europe now. doesn't explain the electronic low range selection and diff locks though. personally I prefer hoofing great mechanical levers!

Moggy and Russ are right - they are hamstrung by emissions legislation. But some of the stuff like electric diff lock actuators IS overengineering rather than mandated by legislation. And I'm also with Gipper - Landrover should do what Toyota did with the 100 for Europe/NA and the 105 for ROW.

I’m guessing the real reason is that those touch pad actuators and the associated electronic logic are actually cheaper to manufacture that the nice basic pull levers for the diff locks that my 1986 G Wagen had. The mechanical mechanism for hi – low range was also a really nice piece of engineering. You engaged low or high range but the mechanism wasn’t actually directly connected to the transfer box. It would only move ratio’s when the syncro was ready.
I also assume that the auto box on the PUR is electronically controlled. Worse than that it will be integrated in to the engine management. So a sensor failure/poor connection/broken wire on the gearbox will also affect the engine and vice versa. Wonder if it’s CAN bus as well :helpsmilie:
Not bothered really, I’ll never own onebier
Russ

New Defender
 

Sorry but that thing is so ugly I'd buy a .......... most anything less ugly than that!!!!!!!!!!!

All-new Defender 2015 to be built in India

Hmmmm.

Personally I have no problem with the new vehicle. It's the name which 'upsets' me.

I feel that the 'Defender' climbed onto it's death bed around about TD5 time and has been declining ever since.

The name 'Defender' envokes many images and IMHO should remain true to the roots of Land Rover. The heritage of such an important marque is a strong atraction to buyers who, despite buying a bling machine, will ocasionally dream and picture themselves on the camel trophy or driving across the serengeti.
With the current Defender, LR can still show images of charity relief vehicles and expedition trucks and claim a (albeit tenuos) link. Similar to how sports cars are sold of the basis of rally or touring cars (to which they bare on a passing resemblance).

However this new vehicle has stronger links to the 'new generation' of Freelanders, Evokes, RRS, etc. and is squarely aimed at the 'lifestyle' market with surf boards and ethnic bracelets.

The 'Defender' is dead, the name should die with it. Name the new car something else such as the Land Rover Organic or Range Rover Fair Trade and let the Defender rest in peace.

With the apparent demise (so I've been told) of the LC Troopie and the continued electronification of LR products it does make me wonder what overlanders and charities (without the reources of a military MT section) will use as a vehicle in the future once all the current 300 TDis and LC 80s have finally gone to the great scap yard in the sky:(

Recessed door handles
 

It at least it seems to have gone back to recessed door handles.
Drive at 45 degrees done a metre deep ravine with the body resting on the mud and you'll realise why the series and early 90/110 door handles were better.
Not that I believe the new one will take that sort of abuse, if you've seen a propshaft ripped apart by cut hay you'll realise the folly of wires controlling stuff underneath.

If mini mokes are anything to go by , when they finally retire the current defender , you will be able to buy a copy from china !!
They do a mini moke for approx £5000 including a diesel engine option , have a look on alibaba , s/h mokes are selling for circa £8k ?

I agree defender name should be retired as its not a dc100 , unless they are having second thoughts which from some reports eg separate chassis are suggesting

No surprises there, given the TATA ownership. Still makes me wonder why they can't keep making the existing one there as well, for those that want it.

Why do makers of cars / every other type of manufactured good imaginable keep changing things just for the sake of it? If people like the old model, keep making it and let those who want the new model have that instead. LC 80 series, Citroen DS, Golf GTI mark 1, you name it - the list goes on and on.

Interesting - wonder what the quality is like though.

In the meantime (as long as the factory doesn't get blown up by the Israelis / Americans) you can get your Defenders from Iran - http://www.lr-mad.co.uk/en/morattab

I'm a Moke owner. In fact it is my favourite vehicle and I hope to use it for an overland journey someday. :D

I always describe a Moke as the offspring of an illicit affair between a Mini and a Land Rover. :rofl:

The quality of real Mokes was never that flash and they rust like hell. So I was excited by the prospect of new shells being available.

Unfortunately these Chinese copies (we call them Chokes) are fairly poor quality. Many of the bolt-on parts fit poorly and some of the early bodies had a twist in them. The paint coverage is poor in hidden areas (just like a real one was!!) Most of the bits you would expect to interchange with a genuine Moke, such as the windscreen frame or fuel tank, don't interchange at all. They have less strength in the floors and sills than a genuine Moke due to the deletion of various strengthening ribs and box sections. Yet somehow they weigh 150-200kg more due to use of heavier steel in other places. That might not sound much, but given a stock Moke is around 600kg it amounts to a difference of around 33%.

In this country at least, Chokes don't meet the registration laws, so they can only be registered illegally with an identity swap. (ie: Take a chassis number from a dead Moke and stamp it on a new Chinese body) The authorities have figured this out now, so a couple were rejected for registration already. I believe the situation is similar in the UK, but in the US they can now be legally registered as a kit car.

Anyway, back to Defenders.

I've always admired the old Defender and have often considered owning one. But the new one leaves me completely cold.

Unfortunately the nanny-state world we live in demands Airbags, ABS, ever-increasing emissions controls and crumple zones. All stuff that is very hard to engineer into an older design. As the market for that design dwindles the manufactures stop investing in it and eventually another great car is consigned to history. :thumbdown:

Cheers,