Which Land Cruiser?
 

Hi folks,

A few questions from a newbie here.

We're a couple looking to buy a land cruiser and spend the next year or so getting to know the vehicle and bringing it up to as good a state of reliability as possible.

With the eventual goal of completing two overland trips, one from SA to the UK, and then a second a year or so later from the UK to Australia where we'll be moving to and so importing the vehicle to keep.

Would be interested in knowing people's thoughts about the following?

- Which series? 80 or 100, or..... We're currently inclined to find as new-ish and low miles an example as possible within a sensible budget, given this will be a lifetime ownership vehicle that we'd plan to keep and use after the trips for exploring Australia for hopefully a long time to come. Albeit, have read about the different schools of thought on modern electronics and sensitivity to dirty/poor fuel in some parts of the world. Still undecided but open to people's experiences?

- Is the newer/lower miles option the way to go here from a cost-efficiency perspective? Or is it possible that it actually makes more financial sense to find an older/higher mileage example for less money and then spend more on rebuilding? In other words, is a £5K base vehicle and £10K of servicing sometimes a better option than a £15K base vehicle and £5K worth of servicing?

- Buy a prepared overlanding vehicle or build one up from a standard vehicle? Is there rule of thumb here that it makes more sense to buy one that someone else has spent the time/money preparing, or is there little difference? We've all seen the ads that say "buy my truck for 18K, 40K spent on it"... But is this (a) true and (b) universally applicable?

- Modifications? What makes sense to do? We're not really interested in extreme off-roading, and while we're all for having a bit more off-road capability and longer range than standard and enough accessories to make life easier, in reality it'll spend most of it's life on roads of some description, albeit perhaps some very rough ones. I'm usually of the opinion that the most reliable and capable vehicles are often the ones that have as few modifications as possible, so what is genuinely helpful and adds to reliability/durability rather than subtracts from it?

- Comfort? This will be our home for a very long time. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what the most comfortable options are for sleeping/cooking arrangements? Would like to keep the option of sleeping inside the vehicle if at all possible, although a roof tent would be useful for some occasions, there will be times/places/weather when we'd prefer to stay inside.

-Automatic or Manual, diesel or petrol, active or passive suspension? Bearing in mind not just the needs/compromises of these two trips, but also it's future home in Aus?

Thanks in advance and apologies if I've opened a can of worms on the choice of series debate.....:)

61 Series Sahara Manual with the 12HT motor!

It is easier to keep a vehicle with minimum electronics running for longer. All the electronic gizmos fail over time due to corrosion, gradual breakdown and increasing fragility of PVC or other plastic parts including the coating on all the (MILES) of wires themselves.
After all that, there remain all the mechanical failures that a vehicle with no electronics can also have. People seem to forget that, even with 5000 sensors, your chassis can still crack or a radiator hose can still burst etc etc.

If you buy a structurally and mechanically sound base vehicle such as an 80 series (running well and not rotten with rust, NOT necessarily mint) and throw 10k at restoring it, you will have a very tight vehicle indeed. 15k for a 100 series that cost 50k+ new means someone else already got 35K of use out of it, its far from new.

Its beyond me how you could spend 40k prepping a vehicle. Where are these people going, the moon??

With an 80 for example;
replace the rad, hoses, water pump and flush the cooling.
service the front and rear axles and the drive line.
service the engine.
put decent suspension on it.
put decent new tyres on it.
stick on some form of a bullbar (in case you hit wildlife/livestock).
throw a few jerrycans in the back for diesel and water.
Total cost of doing all this with proper Toyota parts except for the suspension, tyres and Bullbar, 5-7k. Labour, I would guess another 2/3k; but make sure whoever does it knows what they are doing.

Everything else is only toys: roof tents, shower systems, fridges, split charge systems, on board dvd player, built in hot tub!! ........
If you were on a bike you wouldn't have any of the above and you wouldn't die for the lack of them:D:D:D:D

When you look at these 40k spent vehicles, you wonder where the money was spent.... toys usually..... and then you wonder how much of the worthwhile stuff was done properly (use Toyota parts, NEVER rubbish pattern partsfor essential stuff, they are cheap for a reason usually)

Instead of paying someone to do all this, learn to do it yourself, even if you have to pay someone to teach you a bit of it. The factory service manuals are available for free in .pdf online, more basic manuals can be bought on amazon etc which will be easier for those with a non mechanical background (the FSM's assume you have a reasonable basic knowledge of mechanics). That way you'll know it was done right and if anything does break you;ll be able to diagnose the problem and most likely be confident fixing it.

All the above applies if you buy a 60 series and 80 series or even a 100 series. bierbierbierbierbierbierbierbierbierbierbierbierbi erbierbierbierbierbierbierbierbier

Oh and diesel, manual all the way.

Manual is one less thing to go wrong, diesel is cheaper to run.

But the 100 and I think the 105 have a weaker gearbox than the 80.

Yes, there's certainly a lot of logic in that argument, and it's been repeated often enough by people that have 'been there and done it' that I'm seriously considering that option.

On the flip side however, I'm also not averse in theory to newer 100/200 series. Yes, there is more to go wrong, but they're also newer and lower miles..... there are still plenty of people using them for overlanding without seemingly any major issues cropping up so far.

That's essentially the main decision really.

Which is the better option..... I see the arguments on both sides.

The main factor for me though is as close to bulletproof reliability as I can get.

Ease of fixing it in the wilderness is second to that, as although I'm pretty much mechanically illiterate (despite a fair bit of previous motorsport involvement) so would be reliant on getting it to a repair facility, I do see the argument that finding someone able to work on an 80 series might be easier than finding someone able to competently repair a newer one.

In a previous life I managed a big corporate's involvement in both a rally raid team and international group N campaign, and we never spent that much on preparing one. Although to be fair, we didn't expect them to last beyond a few races before rebuild either.

But you still see the ads.... Hence why I'm here and asking questions.bier


All good advice.

I'd be planning to try and get someone like Julian Voelcker to overhaul the truck completely. His reputation seems to be spot on and I see he's a mod on here as well, so hopefully he'll be along shortly to offer advice.

LOL

I don't mind toys if they help with comfort at my age.... :)

Been there and done that on the bike front, and spent more than enough time sleeping in tents in the desert on raids and getting woken by the bikes at 5:00 am....

But it's not just me now, and the wife requires a certain level of creature comforts these days. Especially if we're living in it for a couple of years.

Absolutely.

My mantra is to keep the mechanicals as close to factory spec as possible, and rebuild anything needing it using only original Toyota parts.

Toyota spends hundreds of millions developing and testing these vehicles to try and keep their reputation for reliability and ability to go anywhere.... It's very unlikely many aftermarket suppliers can equal that.

Thanks, good advice.

Can't emphasise enough how mechanically ungifted I am though, so while I'm certainly happy to try and learn, I'll still be trying to buy reliability as a primary objective.

That is what I'm thinking at the moment....

Only concern is there's not many of the manuals out there in decent condition. Rarer than hen's teeth from what I can see.

Also interested in figuring out if petrol has any advantages over diesel either from the dirty/high-sulphur fuel in Asia/Africa perspective, or for owning it as a lifetime vehicle in Australia.

Understand it's more expensive in fuel costs, although also cheaper to buy, but what's the reality like in terms of reliability, fuel availability in remote areas, etc?

Manual, auto, or both?

And also, do any of the Aussie members have experience of running a UK sourced land cruiser? As that's where it'll be ending up for the rest of it's life after these trips.

I know Toyota have different specs for different markets.

Is there anything that's critically different?

What about insuring an import?

Parts availability/cost, etc?

I have seen looms on older cars start to degrade after 30 years, especially if a little water gets in from a dozed windscreen seal etc.

You are talking about keeping the vehicle for a good few years, even if you buy a 5 year old LC today, it will still be 25 years old in 20 years time. Its at that point that the electrical gremlins will REALLY show their head.

Mercedes, Toyota and a few more were knocking out simple diesel engined cars/trucks that could comfortably do 500k miles in the 1970s, think mercedes OM617 engine, Toyota 2H etc. Then they realised their mistake and needed to start making cars less reliable in order to sell more new ones and make a bigger profit. Cue endless fiddly little gadgets, nonsense and this is where we are today.

I would never buy a common rail diesel engined anything, on simple principle; any engine failure has to be catastrophic and leave you stranded and in need of a new engine.

Totally get that line of argument, and there's a lot going for it.

On the other hand however, my real worry is not 30 years from now, it's the next 5 years and 50,000 miles.

And I've spent enough of my life in stripped down rally cars, on bikes, camping in deserts, etc, to appreciate a bit more comfort and civilised performance than perhaps a 20 year old vehicle can give. Albeit, I'm not willing to trade reliability for comfort either....

It'll be an interesting journey this I feel, trying to find the right tool for the job.

Thanks for your input. bier

Sorry, the manual box is weaker. But it can easily be changed for an 80 one.
Quite a common mod.

Low octane petrol is a problem too, same as diesel. I'm not as familiar with petrols to know how much of a problem though.

I drove a brand new petrol Dacia Duster for 2000kms last year in Romania, top spec, was no nicer than my 1991 80 series, just shinier. I'd take the 80 over it anyday.

A 100 is a little less bumpy, and looks more up to date inside and out, but it isn't that much nicer. It also feels flimsier, not badly built, just not as rugged.

Drive a few of each, see which YOU prefer and why, remember mileage is like age, its only a number on these.

:funmeteryes:

Fair enough.

I currently drive a 4 year old Audi diesel with 120K miles on it, and recently had to drive a brand new vauxhall hire car for a week.... it was horrible.... cheap, tinny, underpowered. :blushing:

But I also suspect that had a lot to do with what I'm used to rather than the merits of the vehicle itself.

I suppose I'm wondering if a lot of the 60 vs 80 vs 100 vs 200 series arguments online have as much to do with the owners opinions as the actual performance of the vehicles?

Well, you may not be too far from the mark there, this is why I suggest trying them all. Long time since I drove a 60, but they are very agricultural!

An 80 or a 100 will feel very different to your Audi, but both feel more like a very big car, rather than a small truck. Both are very comfortable on a long drive (400/500 miles), you just sit back and relax and they eat up the miles.

As for enthusiasts, well....... There a those that would recommend a defender:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Now thats like driving a tractor with all the wheels the same size.

Go with the one YOU like the best to drive, they are all capable trucks, just the 200 has shown more weaknesses, particularly in Oz!

I've never driven a 60, but have driven old Nissan Patrols from the same era, so can imagine 'agricultural' is a good description.

Yes, I've driven a few 80 and 100 series, but it was a very long time ago and they were all petrol versions. Can't remember much about how they drive other than "big car" rather than "small truck" is about right.

Thanks, do you know what it is about 200 series that are 'known issues' in Oz?

Basically the 200 V8 has some engine reliability problems, like burning oil long before high milages are reached. That as much as I know about 200.

Look on LCOOL, the Oz LC forum.

UK forum is landcruiserclub.net

USA is IH8UD

Lots of good advice above

This is probably the best landcruiser forum

Land Cruiser Club

and has model specific forums which you will find useful.

You won't find an HJ61 in the UK so forget that. despite owning and loving a 60 I wouldn't advise getting one of those either. My choice was made with the heart not the head. Me and my h60 had a lot of history together and thats why I made the financially ridiculous decision to renovate it. Parts (mechanical bits and expedition type goodies) are difficult to come by. Many of the parts are no longer made by Toyota, I have had to go as far afield as Holland, UAE, japan, USA and err, Sheffield to do mine! They rust if you just look at them and you will spend a considerable amount of money just getting it to a state where it won't disappear in a pile of brown powder. There are less than 300 in the UK now so they really fall into the category of enthusiasts collectors cars now.

My money would be on a good 80 series. It combines the durability of the 60 with the comfort and power of later cruisers. They have a good standard spec such as on Uk models factory difflocks.It has coils (leafs on african corrugations will take you to a whole new level of discomfort!), they don't rust too badly and represent a good all round option for overlanding, which is why so many people use them for just that. The only fault I know of with them is big end bearing failure so I would make sorting that (kits are available) part of the rebuild.

IN terms of buying ready equipped or standard depends to a certain extent what comes up. If you find a good unmolested standard spec one, there's a lot to be said for that. A good honest car that shows it's faults and provides you with a blank canvas to do what you want with it. On the other hand, you will never get back what you spend on the vehicle, so buying a car that has already been done can be a cost effective solution, the difficulty is knowing the work has been done properly using good quality parts and it was done to suit someone elses needs which may not be the same as yours.

I would avoid buying one that has already done a trip because travelling does tend to muller your truck!! You don't know how mechanically sympathetic the person was and you don't want a vehicle that has been some wannabees Paris Dakar substitute.

Petrol isn't a great choice. It's more expensive, less economical, ignition systems are more complex and prone to problems and the fuel is dangerous and volatile. Try opening a jerry can of petrol that's been shaken around on the roof in 50 degrees on African corrugations all day and you'll see what I mean. Many years ago I read an article about a kid who went up in flames refueling a petrol landrover in Africa.

The difficulty will be finding a good one, and ultimately this may dictate what you get. There aren't many left but Julian Voelecker or Andy Lomas (via the forum above) would be a good start point. Take your time, don't rush and you should be able to find something suitable.

Thanks, very helpful. bier

Overseas I travel on 2 wheels, although a good friend in France sourced a 61 Series locally with the factory 12HT last year for 5000 Euro or so, he's one very happy boy.

Be ready to travel and wait to find the right car and know what you're looking at or have someone who knows look at the car before you buy. The least amount of electric accessories the less will go wrong. Find one with a bull bar and spotties if your lucky some of the 61 series came out with a factory PTO winch, nice ;-) Buy from an owner not a dealer if possible. Or importing a car from Japan is easy enough there a plenty of dealers in the UK doing it, MOT'd the lot. You will find the cars from Japan are mostly very well looked after, un abused, often fully optioned and with low K's / miles.

Look at, a car that is proven and will stand up to some punishment, the 61 series Turbo Diesel and the 80 series Turbo Diesel are awesome 4X4's. Simply add 33 inch tyres and alloy mags and go ;-) Regarding the 80 Series, I'd recommend putting free wheeling hubs in to save some fuel, tyres and transmission.

Auto is not my choice although there are plenty out there and I have not heard of many issues with the boxes. Mind you it will depend on what you tow and they are not quite as fuel efficient.

One thing with all of the Toyota diesels is the oil, it must be changed every 5000 Kilometres or so without fail, easy to do albeit expensive at 9 litres or so.

Parts are easy enough to source given the net these days, generic oil, fuel and air filters and plentiful and cheap, anything else just order online or source through you local 4X4 clubs or wreckers.

The 2 models or variations I'd look at are;

1990 Toyota Landcruiser Sahara HJ61RG

1992 Toyota Landcruiser Sahara HDJ80R

Good luck, Cheers Dave

Hi,

Permanently importing any Land Cruiser made after 1988 into Australia is virtually impossible unless you can prove you have owned it for more than a year overseas and you have Australian residency granted before it arrives. However, with the impending death of the Australian car industry we might see the import laws relaxing. (Here's hoping!)

Imports are usually more expensive to insure in Australia and some of the mainstream companies refuse to offer agreed value on them. You might be stuck with market value and it can be a pittance.

Parts should not be an issue. Most Toyota dealers will now order parts for imports although you might have to wait for them to arrive and pay a bit more.

In the unlikely event you find an ex-Australian car with the Australia compliance plate still attached under the bonnet, then re-importing again is no problem.

Cheers,
Brett.

Yes, it'll be a personal import, the one-year rule and residency won't be a problem.

I'll need to investigate the insurance issues, but had already assumed there would be a cost implication.

Thanks for that, very helpful. bier

I'm pretty certain the manual in the 100 series is the same as an 80, but the manual in the lower powered 1HZ engined 105 is weaker (although appropriate for the engine).

It would be good to know a budget about how much you want to spend for the car with modding.

To take a Land Cruiser is a good choise.

Which one - here we can discuss near endless.

I did chose a new Land Cruiser 200 (europe spec) for crossing africa. We choose to sleep inside, not in a tent or rooftent.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iWkAUvx_-_...rica-Flyer.jpg

You can find details about our car and our travel diary here
Trans-Africa

I would suggests to use an automatic car, one with aircon. Look for comfort while driving, what points to never models.

Therefore you dont plan to do some offroad stuff, i would suggest spend the money to travel comfort, not the way who lead to Frontbar, Winch, Difflocks and so on.

Here is some inspiration for building an sleeping plattform inside:
4x4tripping: Sleeping inside of the car, Overlanding with comfort (but less space)

What was helpful for is for our trip:
4x4tripping: The top 7 overland equipment and gear


Here is an German Article about choosing an vehicle, who may be helpful too:

4x4tripping: Optimale Fahrzeugwahl für Reisende

Surfy

What happended to the 70 series?

60.000km in Africa - 0 problem (only broken leaf springs but these were not original toyota!)

Unfortunately we struggle to get hold of them in the UK, the Troopies and Traybacks were never sold over here.

Just to add to the other great content....

Whilst I love my 80, I would personally choose a 100 series because it is a more comfortable drive and would ideally aim for a post August '03 to get the newer gearbox, although they are still a little pricey for overlanding.

You can pickup a reasonable 80 for around £5-8k, but expect to have to spend another £5k to baseline it.

100s can be picked up for around £8k upwards and will require around £3k to baseline.

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, we have had some very badly rusted 80s and 100s here mainly due to previous owners playing in the sea!

Prep wise there isn't a vast amount in it. It is worth while swapping the torque converter on the auto 100s and if you can afford it or are planning to go off piste a lot then also fit a front air locker to strengthen the front diff (not so necessary on the later models).

I prefer the autos due the ease of driving and also they are better in sand and mud, although drink more fuel on short runs - on longer high speed runs the different final gearing can nudge the auto ahead of the manual. They are generally pretty bomb proof, however the key is to make sure that they have decent fresh oil and an extra oil cooler.


With regards the pre-prepped vehicles you can pick up some real bargains particularly when looking at some really high specced ones, however they do tend to be tired and will still need to be baselined.

Mods wise aim for something like a 2" lift, a snorkel, diff breathers, underbody protection (on the 100s) and I would probably also fit a 3rd battery and split charge system for extra electrical kit. You may also want a roof rack for extra storage.

Some people opt for a platform in the back so you can sleep on top and then store kit underneath - this works well although do remember that for some countries you may need a guide so access to one of the 2nd row seats is handy, although you can have removable board for covering this when not required.

Are you based in the UK?

Hi Surfy

Thanks for those links, some very good ideas.

Budget is less than £20,000 including servicing and mods and equipment.

The aim at this point is to purchase as new and low miles a vehicle as possible, while still leaving a reasonable amount for servicing and modifications/equipment.

We would like to also sleep in the vehicle most of the time I think, so some camper ideas like those in your links are good.

Yes, some really good advice in this thread and via PM so far!

Thanks to all who have contributed. bier

Very helpful, thanks for that.

I had narrowed the search so far to the 04 model year or newer. Are there any easy ways to spot one that's "August 03" or newer from the pictures etc in classifieds or features?

We live a long way from anywhere in rural Scotland, so when travelling to look at vehicles, etc, it's better to know for sure before you go.

Wouldn't be planning on going too far off-piste, dirt roads or tracks and maybe some open desert or beaches when camping.

So for example, sand ladders could be useful, rock sliders not so much..... Not planning to play in the mud too much either unless we really have to.

Capability/reliability/range for unplanned changes to route or forced detours is good, but that's about it.

Surprised Auto seems to rank so well from those that know, but happy to go down that path if it's the right thing to do.

Is there anything in particular worth avoiding or alternatively worth snapping up if you see it?

Do you have a rough idea of cost to do all these properly?

We were thinking along these lines. The China transit will need a guide, so the seat is necessary.

Yes, in Northern Scotland.

You mention a budget of £20k , dont forget costs of importing into OZ , + quarantine cleaning costs , the tax adds up quite quickly . :thumbup1:

If you go auto then make sure you have a spare starter assy , as you cant tow start , so have to rely totally on the batteries and starter working . HTSH

Aye, don't I know it. :(

Fortunately £20K is the budget for the vehicle and initial servicing/mods only.

We have another budget in mind for living and fuel costs, services on the road, carnet/visas, shipping, china transit, import duties, etc.

Good point.

Thanks

Why would you rate a 100 cheaper to baseline Julian?

Just curious

If you carry each spare who can be mission critical - then your travel weight is that heavy that you have an breakdown soon.

If you really worry about an item, know that it has to replaced on that milage your car has too - then you replace that stuff better before your journey start.

Surfy

Hi, my first post on HU. Have you considered looking at things the other way round, i.e. importing a vehicle into the UK from Oz? I'm a Kiwi who generally lives in Sydney but at the moment we're in Europe in our 79 Series in which, next year, we're planning to drive to Vladivostok via the Stans & Mongolia. We had the 79 shipped from Sydney to Felixstowe for AUD2,800 (around GBP1,500). If you do it that way you'll (a) get an Oz spec vehicle and (b) have a lot less trouble with the importation. If you bring it into the UK as a temporary import you can use it for 6 months without having to pay VAT or go through UK registration bureaucracy.

Take a look at Used Cars - New Cars - Search New & Used Cars For Sale - carsales.com.au and you'll get an idea of what AUD36k could buy. From experience, I'd go for a HZJ105 although the FZJ105 (petrol) is likely to be cheaper. For that money you should find a decent one with a few offroad mods. As an example, see 2001 Toyota Landcruiser HZJ105R GXL. Re the gearbox, yes, the 105 manual gearbox is weaker than the 100, but since the 100 puts out around 150kw as against the 96 of the 105, in reality it's not a problem unless you turbocharge it, which is NOT recommended.

Anyway just some thoughts for you. Happy to give you any further advice from my own experience which includes fitting the 1HD-FTE (24v turbo from the 100) into a 105.

Lawrence

Vehicle choice - advice
 

Personal opinion, having driven and overlanded LR's and LC's.

Go for an 80 or 100 series Cruiser. He in the UK, they are more readily available, so you will have a fair few to choose from.
Once the vehicle has been sourced and purchased, take it to Julian at Overland Cruisers | Overland Cruisers, specialists in preparing and servicing Toyota Land Cruisers

He will give give you good solid advice, as to what you need rather then what you might think you need.

Chris

I have a 61 and I've not seen another one for sale since I bought it, if you wanted one I think Japanese import would be the way to go. What I would say is parts are a pain to get hold of in the UK, often a long wait though Australia does seem to be a bit better for them. It was a luxurious car in its day so it is comfy and has air con but it is fairly loud on the motorway and not very fast. 60mph cruise is ok but anything faster starts feeling unwise.

On the plus side it is simple and has been very reliable, the few age/miles related work it has needed has always signalled well in advance of any failure. The power and torque come in beautifully and it has been capable beyond my abilities off road, and I took some tuition too.

There is a certain charm though of being stuck at 60mph, that urge to rush and hurry evaporates as the miles roll by. The leaf sprung suspension also means that slow is better when it' rocky eg Morocco :)

Edit: Huh, just checked the timestamp. Looks like this chat finished. Oops.

Nice sounding truck Alex, and a very rare beast in this country. Some sources for parts you may already know about are LL Landcruisers in Holland and Andy Lomas in the uk. He is based in Sheffield and has around 20 60 series models (yes you did read that correctly, 20!) He reckons he has only seen a couple of 61s in the UK. I would love a 12ht motor to go in my 60!

No worries. I still drop in and read from time to time.

All contributions much appreciated.bier

FWIW, I used a Jap import 80 for my trip and it was fine apart from when the cold start advance/retard cam broke off and wreaked havoc inside the fuel pump in Turkey. Also I think the auto gearbox didn't last much longer after I sold it to the next person - I didn't realise it was so near the end of its life when I sold the vehicle but, in retrospect, the number of times it overheated when I was driving in sand in Libya probably had something to do with it. So, if you can get one, a manual not an automatic.

My site has a section showing the preparation I did.

mark

We're pretty much set on a 100 series if we end up with LC.

The only problem is finding a good one for a reasonable price. :)