Is This A Land Mine?
 

Can anyone out there please confirm whether or not the image below is of a landmine?
Attachment 19437

Jump up and down on it, that should confirm things one way or another. Be sure and come back to post your findings!

Seriously though, I'm guessing if the answer is 'yes' we've got an interesting story here.

I asked the 'navo' if she would do that while I took the photo but,she was'nt keen even despite the positive weight loss attraction:D

Anti-tank mine 35 cm diameter
http://www.ericbartononline.com/wp-c.../land-mine.jpg

Err stay away from it , anti tank mines usually have anti personal mines sown near them to deter removal and some will have anti handling devices underneath them . Mark it s position on a map and leave well be . I certainly would not be wiping debris off the top that sort of rubbish is for films only..... Trust me mine clearance used to be my job

This photo was taken in what looks like a caravanserai/meeting/market place on the LHS of the road on a slope going North into Abteh.

It is an extremely interesting looking complex near to and clearly visible from the road. It looks exactly like similar complexes in Iran so my wife and I went to explore it. It is completely unfenced and unmarked for mines. We drove our Defender through the gates and around the complex which has many points of interest.We then parked the car and had a walk around. My wife spotted this one in the middle of an access road to the SW part of the complex and we subsequently found two more in the track whilst on foot which had probably been uncovered by wind.

It is a beautiful,intriguing place. We were lucky.DO NOT GO THERE!!!!

Does anyone have contacts to inform suitable authorities?

Wow I know the place and nearly turned around to have a look. Best people to report to are the police in Abteh or UN in Smara I guess


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ouch. This is on the Moroccan side, and close to the road then?
And no warning signs?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ab...8!4d-11.448821

From Tony's description it's a group of old building west of the road maybe 5km south of Abteh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We were around the East side of Abteh for a couple of days trying to get across to Msied via Gandini route but eventually had to turn back at a wet wadi with to much rock moving to do for one vehicle only. And this has usually meant further bad crossings to follow so we went North to Msied via tarmac:(
But did hear some very interesting howling during the night that was not fox or dog. Do the wolves and jackels come this far North of Aswerd area?

We tried twice at the police post in Abteh to report the mines but it was unmanned on both occassions.

Is this it? http://tinyurl.com/koxdu7y

or this? http://tinyurl.com/jvujs2u

I have a waypoint for the second one as an abandoned army camp, but Google Maps reckons it's a tourist camp :rofl:

I'm really surprised at this as Morocco is considered free of landmines with the exception of Western Sahara. I presume MINURSO won't be interested as it's not in WS.

Keep you and Jan safe!

I think we should clarify exactly where these 3 mines were seen, assuming that's what they are (Chris G?) and then spread the word. Tony can you pinpoint the spots?

It's only 20km from the old WS border, and the Jebel Ouarkaziz directly east has many former front-line emplacements, berms and installations.

I emailed Gandini/Extreme Sud - they ought to spread the word in France.
I also notified wuestenschiff.de [acknowledged May 2nd]. I know one German Sahara forum used to keep a landmines database.
I will also mention it in the upcoming edition of MO.

On GE there are several photos at both locations Tim gives - both have odd, klin-like huts. Just like Tony, passing travellers like to explore or camp at such curiosities (it seems Budapest Rally did so in 2009 at the southern one).

Is This A Land Mine?
 

The locations Tims linked are where I assume it is.

Lots of Fuel Stations Chris I counted 5 just into the WS side


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Attachment 19443

The complex in question is the one in the first of Tim Cullis' Google link.

In the photos the LR is parked in the access gate of the NE compound.

The other two are in the NW compound close to where the mines are.

Using Tim's approx co-ords for the mines would be N27.882257-W11.490838.

In the photo of the single hive you should be able to see the new road construction embankment in the valley in the background.

To answer your question, in the first instance I would approach the Gendarmerie Royal. The Gendarmerie is a paramilitary organisation attached to the army, rather than being a pure police force like the Sûreté Nationale.

In case your photo isn't obvious to them, the French expression is 'mine terrestre'.

Thanks Tim.I will try and investigate this later today/tomorrow.

I have succeeded in sending a mail to Gendarmerie Royal so will now await a reply:innocent:

Reporting
 

I have now reported the location to Gendarmerie Royale but so far have not heard back.
So,I have also reported to FCO in London asking them to follow up.
Will post any updates as I receive them.

I didn't think there would be any land mines in Morocco proper. Do we know of other locations?
Is there a mine map for Morocco? Have some for Western Sahara but doesn't show anything in Morocco.

Chris S notified me of this thread. I reported it today to the Gendarmerie Royale in Abteh. Looking at the thread they confirmed it is an anti tank mine and the location an old military camp. They were thankful, wrote down the coordinates and said they would take the necessary actions.

Cheers,
Raf

Great news, Raf.

What I've found is that the satellite images in Google Maps and Google Earth are unsurprisingly the same, however Apple Maps are different images and often better quality—which is true in this case.

Hi,
In my opinion it’s not astonishing to find mines in this place.

I know the place and I was wondering that travelers went there. Although it looks interesting all elder and unused non-urban buildings, walls, tranches etc. there are most likely military infrastructure from the 1980’s. All those places in cap Juby Strip are candidates for UXO and forgotten Landmines. All military camps in WS are/were potentially saved by landmines – also new infrastructure near the demarcation line to Polisario held territory.

During the Western Sahara conflict there have been also struggles in the Cap Juby Strip (region south of Qued Draa). The today “border” between Morocco and by Morocco held Western Sahara is not the northern limit of the conflict zone.

Land mines are not scattered on open reg and serrir. They are always placed on strategical positions like military camps, wells, walls, passes or beside certain roads (i.e. N1 south of Dakhla down to Mauri border)). Also beaches in Western Sahara can be a problem (i.e. Cap de Cintra). I never understood why anybody put mines in the beaches, but they did so. Keeping on fresh tracks near these places avoids 90% of risk entering former/still mined areas with potentially still not detected land mines.

Dealing with any mine maps or GE marcs only helps to get an Idea where you should be careful, but never tells you where you are save. All parties in the conflict used land mines, but only a part of the mines where documented. The actual find is a good prove for that: Nobody remembered these mines and they could never appear in any map. The lesson learned is not only that there are mines in this place. It is about the type of place. The cap Juby Strip and WS is not “full of land mines” but south of Qued Draa there are many certain, typical places where you have to be aware of bad surprises.



My own mantra to enjoy hopefully save(er) traveling in WS without paranoia is:

Resist your own curiosity :innocent: . Keep away from all “interesting” non-urban infrastructure (Building, old road, walls (berms), tranches etc.) which is not in use anymore (no fresh traces etc.). It is 95% military from the WS conflict and locals do not go there because they made bad experiences.
To reach civilian non-urban infrastructure (i.e. wells and their Pump house) approach on fresh tracks.

Although if any infrastructure is in use make sure that it is not military before you try to move closer without being sure to be on a fresh track and your appearance will not surprise somebody. If you are not sure: stop or do slow, show you. Military will recognize you as tourist and you will have no problem. Make sure not to be mistaken as somebody with bad or dubious intentions.

Have look how locals drive beside roads or tracks. In some areas nobody leaves the track for even 10cm (i.e. near M’Sied , Imlili or wells in Adrar Soutouf) . Be very attentive for tracks or roads blocked by stone rows or redjems. This shows that somebody made a bad experience in this place. So it is better to do it like the locals.



Regards
Wolfgang

Raf,

A big thank you for taking the time to do this. I think we can look forward to a satisfactory close to an 'interesting' story.

Wolle thanks for you informative comments. We spent two days wondering around on the plains south of Msied which were being extensively grazed by large herds of bedou livestock.We entered the area via the main wadi track running south out of Msied.

According to Gandini,Msied was attacked by the Polisario during the conflict. Have you had any other information about mines in this area which is obviously deep inside Moroccan territory!

Hello Tony,
Sorry for my late reply.
In the triangle Assa, Abetth, Smara had been struggles and all parties used anti-personal and anti-tank mines. The wadi south of M’Sied you crossed is known to be critical. You will have recognized that the locals keep strictly the track with their vehicles.
Archeologists working since years in this area confirmed me that they found different types of mines in several places. Sometimes beside wells, passes or near former military positions (a lot of those between M’Sied and Hamza) but also in wadis, because mines can be washed away and be buried in the sand. These Archeologists always stay on recently used tracks with their vehicles and walk around carefully.
The problem are not the known mines, they can and will be disarmed. The problem are the unknown ones.
That’s also the reason why Gandini gives the general advices to stay on the tracks in this region instead of trying to name certain places of findings. It would give a trappy illusion of security.
In fact in the whole area is a certain remaining risk to get in touch with this nasty stuff. Surely less on the plains but more in the wadis. But it is always more than zero risk.
As Gandini assumes, most of anti-personals may be hit by animals, because there are always herds. But with the car the bedou will drive mostly on the same tracks, because anti-tank mines are not “disarmed” by the cattle.
There are several areas in WS where free driving is no problem, but in this region I prefer to avoid it, even if I only look for a place to bivouac.

Regards
Wolfgang

Assa? So anywhere south of the Draa would be unsafe? Is there a definite outline for the minefields?

Hello priffe,
For example Jebel Ouarkziz south off Assa is not be considered as 100% clean.
I think defined minefields have mostly been near the berms.
But landmines had also been put on certain places or roads. Like the ones tony found in the “camp”. They can have been put anywhere as trap or to block a pass. Some few or even single mines here and there. But it was not proper documented. That’s the problem. The area is not “full of mines” but some are still there although Morocco did and does a lot to clean suspect Areas.
Mine Action | Reports | Monitor




regards
Wolfgang

Here's a map over actual mine incidents
https://www.gichd.org/mine-action-to.../#.WRQvOtryjb0

An American died near Assa in 2011 http://www.bladi.net/americain-mort-...ine-maroc.html

Interesting map. Quite a lot of incidents in west of Layounne - and this was only 2016.

Globally, it was a 10-year high in 2015:
Landmine casualties at 10-year high - report - BBC News

Land mine casualty near Mseid, 2015:
http://allafrica.com/stories/201508171213.html

Some of the locations are not exact, the one pinned on Layyoune took place elsewhere, it says location unknown. Otherwise it would be downright scary - I've been bushcamping around Layyoune quite a bit. Sneak behind dune, think you are all alone, out of nowhere there's a military walking up to the campfire. They are everywhere. They rarely speak anything but Arabic, so I never knew what they were saying, but tried to follow their directions as best I could.
Probably they were saying "you're camping in a minefield!".
I like to take the old coastal road from Tarfaya to Layyoune. They would only let me camp on the east side of that road. I think I know why now.
Several incidents in Akka region, two in 2015. That's northeast of Assa, on the same latitude as Sidi Ifni. The northernmost 100 kms E of Tiznit. Who knew?

The old saying was treat dummy as live... It certainly has judging by the photo the appearance of a mine , therefore it should b treated as such . I am a number of years out if date re what is current but I would certainly press the authorities re this issue . Best of luck
.

FCO and Royal Gendarmerie
 

Despite being given a reference number for my FCO query and a subsequent chasing mail to them,I have never heard back from FCO....must have gone in the TO HARD box:(

Also,never heard back after my mail to The Gen.Royale:(

Once again thanks to Chris Scott and Raf.

Sorry, a bit off the subject but maybe a warning...

We used to visit Mozambique quite a lot after the war. Most cattle were tendered to a pole because the locals were worried they'd wonder off and maybe step on a landmine.

A few years in, and as we approached our 'usual' spots, we saw these little yellow flags everywhere, and sometime directly next to the track. Upon asking the locals, we were informed that a UN(?) troupe has come through and marked landmines for a follow up team coming through a few weeks later. A bit of a wake up call, as we have frequented these areas for years without bothering/caring. The flags looked something similar to this, but we have seen several designs in other places over the years since, when we knew what to look out for

http://www.germaniainternational.com...gmienmar01.jpg

Next time someone passes south of Abteh will be interesting to see if any warnings ever got put around the old base.

We passed by about 8 days ago. The buildings look pretty interesting and curiosity might make you go there. It is pretty close to the tarmac road.

There is a short and easy track from the tarmac to the area/to the buildings. No obstacles, no warning signs visible. We did not leave the tarmac, we did not approach.

According to a policeman in Abteh the buildings were old maroccan barracks from the 1920ies, 1930ies. I didn´t ask him about mines.

Came past last week. Couldn't see any warnings into the beehive structures. Just a bit further south is another old fort which I have waypointed as abandoned...…………..not anymore army based at the entrance and tents up further back from the road

TREAT AS DANGEROUS MINE - looks very much like a US M16 mine
 

TL;DR - I'm not 100% sure, but yes, it's very probable the original pic is the main body of an APERS mine, no fuse though -
needs scale to be sure, if outer visible ring is 4 inches or just larger across, then likely to be a M16 mine. In any case, treat as dangerous, play it safe.

long version:
It looks like a US-made M16 bounding (jumping) anti-personell mine ( this one appears to be the flat-top, not the concentric-ridged variant) It's not a M16A2 because on those the fuse-well is offset - this one is central so M16 or -A1

It does not have the fuse assembly fitted and was probably pre-laid to be fitted with the horn assembly in the immediate run-up to a known attack. It's also possible that it was de-fused at some point and left in place.

They are common as muck - just about everyone bought them back in the day and millions would have been nicked so it could have been laid by any side from 1960s onwards.

It could maybe also be a training version, tough I have a feeling they were all plastic-bodied and this pic shows corroded steel as the outer housing (the actual mine has a steel outer case with a cast-iron bounding chargecase)


Historically - I have a feeling the main camps of the Goums were located further north in the 30s. I know the 19er, 49er and 44er Goums had casernes in Bou Jerif and the region to the south, but I'm not sure where I remember that info from. It seems too accurate in my memory to be misremembered, so I think I must have read it recently (on the net somewhere) Those kiln/beehive buildings look unusual - could this be a Spanish-occupation era place? I'm not sure of the Spanish sphere of influence in the area, historically.
EDIT: this info could have come from a AmouddouTV video, not sure which one - loads on episodes on Youtube - all in Arabic though (or rather, some parts in berber with arabic subtitles for when the locals are interviewed in rural areas)
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLOXkeB6lLqjmqngg5uM2CQ


In any case (excuse the pun) this is likely a 1960-s onwards munition (if it is in fact what I think it is - lack of scale makes it hard to be sure) There's a (tiny?) chance it could be a old gas canister or old filter or something innocent, but I'd never take the chance.

Here's a pic of similar M16 mine, note the fitted fuse/trigger assembly in this pic:
http://ordata.info/img/images/H3839UF1.jpg

And this? I presume it is best avoided?
On a piste near Imlili.

Looks like some sort of shaped charge munition that has failed to detonate. The bent 'nose' of the projectile suggests it hit something but the fuse didn't fire. The nose contains a hollow copper cone and when the charge behind it detonates it sends a jet of molten copper through the armour of the target. It should go without saying if it hasn't detonated yet, there's still explosive in there.

Go looking for old ammo and old ammo may find you
 

The abandoned caserne entrance today. No warnings/fences.

And lots of tire tracks!

Hi
 

Can you write the gps please. I am a certified tour guide in Smara

I hope they have cleared the area as the view of the buildings from the road does invite the curious ! :nono:

Said
The complex is on the RHS of the road a few km South of Abteh as you travel South.Do you have any contacts in the Gendarmerie to get it checked.

Said, see the link in post #11, the GPS waypoint is N27.8810 W11.4881

Just saw this insta vid from a week ago.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DDja3AyMWW9/
Don't know if it's the same place but 'Abteh' is mentioned and the conical 'kilns' look familiar.
Either way, presumably no warnings but perhaps mines were quietly removed?

I happened to look on iOverlander which definitely marks the place is the place Tony found.
Also comments on the solitude and a great camp.
https://ioverlander.com/places/25610...-military-huts

Well at least the HUBB did it's bit ;-)

inshallah

safe travels to all :scooter:

memory is a bit rusty with the COVID interval but the ruins were closed off with a military presence there for a number of years after Tony's reporting of the mines.

Now its open again a people visiting. I did have a chat with Henriette (For the Love of Wheels) after she posted her videos about the mines. Apparently no signs or anything so we can a probably assume that they have been cleared.

The location was listed on iOverlander prior to 2017 as a wildcamp location and has been used as a Bivouac by various banger rallies over the years. iOverlander has never been terribly well moderated and now iOverlander2 with the (very expensive) subscription model is out I'm not sure everything is listed on both versions of the app. I'ver certainly noticed V2 has some things missing but not sure if this is an admin tidy up or not.

Looking now at both V1 and V2 iOverlander Apps the old listing has been deleted and replaced with funmotoadventures one.

But Chris' note about the mines visible on the website is not on the app.

I suppose you're not going to get signs proclaiming:
'Area Free of Landmines'.