More than 100 free maps , for all needs ,,keeps coming ~
 

Can garmin take this ?
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP2S5yDZ3cY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9J611BuXhw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKUz6xLcwZw

No matter ,, how hard I search,, there is no garmin drop test or water test on youtube.

Every Garmin I've had and have need(ed) a computer. And they have shat themselves whilst on a trip. The Garmin's that run android are basically evolving on the same path the phones have, starting with a GPS instead of a GSM, but over a decade behind the curve.

I don't buy the redundancy argument. Most (not all) people that travel with one, can't navigate without a GPS. Often relying on turn-by-turn navigation, relying on often old maps. Most times you only need to know in what valley you are. If there is a trail infront of your front wheel pointing in the direction you want to go, you're doing ok.
Unless you ride a 300 kg GS and you want a highway. :offtopic::ban::oops2::blushing:

Back before openstreetmap and google maps Garmin was useful because they were pretty much the only source of trackable maps. But only in developed countries. On my trip through South America in 2005 it was absolutely useless. The one before that I had an etrex and only used it once in Mongolia to check if I was roughly going the into the right valley chasing fuel. Map screen version were too expensive.

So if you are going to use openstreetmap, and you have an android device that you just upgraded (as I said, most people are not on their first android smartphone) that you already use in day to day life, why buy another that does exactly the same thing?

This thread is to try offer an alternative view and help new bike travelers save some money from buying another item they really don't need. Just like other thread provide an alternative view to set fire to that Touratech catalog. A dedicated GPS is a luxury item, and a redundant one at that. Not a must have. If your phone does the same thing, that'll do just fine.

As was said. Redundancy is a paper map. Having digital maps in you pocket just helps you carry less of them. Its much easier to zoom on a smartphone and navigate old school with a digitized "paper" topo map than it is on a Garmin. At least the ones I've had/ have.

I am guessing that the this whole debate is missing out exactly where and when gps devices are useful. A GPS device proves its worth in cities or when looking for a POI. A paper map will never be able to replicate this function. So paper maps as redundancy for a GPS unit is a non-starter.

The best maps I have seen for South America (where i travel) are all maps intended for Garmin installation. They are not Garmin branded, but they are third party maps made for Garmin. OSM is only one of these products. I also have the best paper maps for South America (Reise), and they are not sufficient for urban travel.

I don't use a smart phone for navigation when traveling so perhaps I am not aware of exactly all the apps available. In any case, aside from turn-by-turn navigation (essential in urban areas), the other item which is make or break for a nav system is the ability to have 1000's of custom POIs imported into the device. In my case, I am interested in POIs for camping. I need a device which can easily import those POIs from my computer (essential as that is where the POI file is prepared and created), and also display the notes of each POI in a clearly readable fashion (such as Garmin Nuvi).

Scope is definitely debatable. The scope you describe can all be achieved on a smart phone. Plenty app examples have already been provided in this tread. This scope is where it started for the smart phones. It took longer to become useful for backcountry use. It's finally here. It's all I use in the Rockies backcountry now.

Don't agree on the dismissal of paper maps though. It's been used for urban travel up to when google maps became readily available by the masses with city street indexes.
It's easier, but some people follow the instructions of the voice guidance and don't pay attention anymore. Plenty off comic news stories of people driving into rivers etc.

It's easy enough to write down a turn list. Or follow gut instinct to find city centres. Particularly easy in south America.

Tons of ways to load POI ,, way points ,,
I even loaded Walter's way points on my sygic.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...oid+navigation

For the sake of objectivity, I’ll reply Seouljoe

It is clear that you, for some unknown reason, dislike Garmin. This is your choice and your right. You have posted obsessively on that subject for a long time ‘ad nauseatum’ and it really serves no purpose.

It would greatly help others if you could refrain from this from now on and avoid posting misleading information driven by your above feeling. Allow others to draw their own conclusions based on objective and impartial reviews. It is important to provide as accurate information as possible.

From what you have posted, and I say this without wishing to cause you any offense SeoulJoe, it is clear that you have very little understanding of real Navigation and even less of the Monterra as evidenced below- replying to the points you raised:

* All electronic devices from computers/satnavs/mobile phones/smart phones/diagnostic devices/ TV's etc. have had software updates- It is just the way things are. Most are designed to resolve issues and offer improvements although, at times, not always!

* The Monterra’s original compass drift has been corrected quite some time ago.

* The unit’s battery longevity is virtually the same as the Montana satnav unless, of course, you use the new and additional Apops - some power hungry-running under Android such as Bluetooth/Wifi / Skype etc. – most people use a powered mount.

* The music level, at maximum, is loud enough to remain loud at 70mph, being the local legal limit in the UK and close to most in Europe. I cannot comprehend the need for having music blaring out from speakers mounted on a motorcycle; it seems rather puerile and attention seeking to me.

* Your comment: “The unit cannot direct you in a straight line to a point in the middle of an open field if you follow the map pointer.” Is misleading and totally incorrect.
The Monterra can (indeed as can the Montana and 64ST) navigate ‘point to point’ in a straight line with or without mapping using either the pointer or compass pointer. There are many routing options within the Monterra’s settings to allow you to do this as well as using the icon Sight-N’-Go option which is particularly useful on trails and/or featureless terrain.

I understand your love of smart-phones and they are indeed excellent. I’m probably as attached to mine as you are to yours!

What would be useful ,as you appear to know about smart phones, would be for you to take the time to post your in depth review of the ones you are using and feel are particularly good for travel to help others decide.

Gunt86
FYI- in addition to the huge number of POI’s within City Navigator 2015-2 (and I am going to guess is similar in other Garmin CityNav products) I have databases of currently just over 318,000 of them- plus the 31,007 campsites contained in Archie’s Europe.
These have worked in the 278C, 60CSX, 62S, Montana, 64ST and lastly the Monterra.

=> There is a way of creating your own POI files in .csv format which enables a very large amount ** of waypoints to be available in a small (-er file than a .gpx) file- the only downside of the .csv (or .gpx) files is that they cannot be edited once in the unit if a waypoint if found to be wrong/missing as you are going along. I hope this is useful to you and feel free to pm me if you'd like to know 'how to' (assuming you don't know! apologies if you do.)

** very large compared to various limits in different satnavs- of 'live-aka editable' waypoints.

I always travel with paper maps ( Rese Know-How are very good if available) and a compass as well as my smart phone and sat nav which both provide useful additional information and navigation.

simple
 

I agree with Warin - keep it simple. I just carry a map. Another device is just more stuff deal with. I'm 2 up on a DR650 and I see guys on their own with more stuff than we have all the time. In my opion, the energy that goes into keeping track of, packing, loading and unloading stuff that you don't really need often outweighs the benefit of having it.

Per above comments from Bertrand - can't speak for SoulJoe, but I certainly have a personal dislike for Garmin simply because I think they provide poor value by selling overpriced repackaged data that is meant to be freely available. Its not like they went out and collected it. Since everyone walks around with a GPS unit in their pocket now that allows you to use the same data for free, their days would seem to be numbered.

I use smart phone for navigation in my car, it works great for going from A to B on regular roads. But unlike a traditional GPS it's not allowed (in Norway) to fiddle with it when I'm driving.

For navigation on a bike I find the phone useless. Basic navigation tasks as projection of waypoints and "offroad-routes" doesn't exist, you can't see bearings to waypoints (you cant even see bearing in real time!) etc.
This might be possible to solve with apps, but I don't care because the screen is hard to read, it's a nightmare to operate the screen with gloves and the unit is fragile.

Hmm, the GPS and maps on the phone suddenly stopped to work after the latest fw-update..

My dear Garmin-unit has been working for 11 years, I've had 7 phones during that time. 6 are dead now, drowned, crashed or died with battery-failure. The one that still works have a cracked screen and the USB-plug is starting to make problems.
Once the accessory-plug on my bike melted when the charger caught fire.

Still I think that this might change, and I will use the phone - hopefully my Garmin will continue to work in the meantime!

Keep up the good work SeoulJoe
 

I see that this thread has stood the test of time with multi-thousands of viewings and hundreds of replies even though it never did make it to become one of the exalted "stickies".

It's been running strongly for over 2 1/2 years.

Speaks for itself.

I think that it is changing and will continue to do so (I might pop back to this thread in another couple of years or so to read the latest thoughts here).

There is an overview in the link below which provides some ideas about the market related to trail riding.
GPS - Some options - RibbleValleyTRF

Wow, this sounds really condescending.

You might as well have posted this.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/281542912/hE2813646/

To tell someone he doesn't understand "real" navigation because he doesn't use a dedicated GPS is misleading to new users. Most good navigators look at GPS users as poor navigators (and that's putting it lightly). Particularly motorists who use them. We're not talking about crossing the dunes in the Sahara here, but about knowing which direction to turn on engineered infrastructure.

The guy is the OP of a thread which aims to give an alternative to the old and provides continues updates. As has already been pointed out, there aren't many, if any, of those threads. There are a few remarks on Garmin, but typically as a response (from memory) or to point out the option. There is more useful info in this thread than in any other Garmin fan boy thread in my opinion. Calling yourself impartial and objective but going on about the Monterra is ridiculous.

To me this thread is awesome in providing more understanding of the capabilities of a tool which you likely already own, and possibly more than one. There is the redundancy argument dealt with, even though I don't understand the resistance to a swiss army knife approach (1 items for multiple uses). But to keep it informative let me summarize some other aspects.

Usability is a no-brainer. It can do exactly the same. It's up to the individual to adopt and accept that or not.

Screen in direct sunlight is still open to debate to me. I'm on the fence. Never really found it without problems on anything, but manageable overall.

Accuracy, it's as accurate. At least with Backcountry Navigator it is in my experience. I use it for backcountry hikes and cycle trips with topo maps. If I'm on a ridge, the map shows me dead on. Pretty much the same under thick canopy cover with it in my pocket. Never lose a signal. Took the wrong trail this weekend (my bad, should have looked on the map more often) and had to bush bash for a kilometer through dense forest, up slope to the ridge to find the trail. Never skipped a beat. The way in is either dead on, on the way back, or within a metre or 2. Eyesight in other words.

Battery is no issue. I still have half a battery left on an S4 with an 8 hour hike. Plenty of backup battery and solar packs available. On a bike this is a non-issue.

Robustness is no issue to me, although I’m taking Noel’s experiences seriously. Vibration possibly. But you don’t have to have the thing on the bars, a tank bag map case would do. My mate has his on the bars in an otterbox on single-trail rides in Queensland; Australia. Never had any issues. Don’t even “need” it in sight in all cases. There are still road signs and/ or gut instincts to follow. Real old school navigation I guess.

Touch screen with gloves is no issue. Plenty of winter gloves are now marketed as e-gloves. Bike gloves are a bit behind possibly, but there are plenty of option. The easiest one is to sew a tiny bit of capacitive thread in the finger. Well documented.

I’ve been an early adopter or Garmin buying their first Etrex (before they called it that I think, can’t remember) on a “just in case” basis. It didn’t have a map view so you had to find your location on a topo paper map. It was a good safety net, but in reality I didn’t need it. Used it in Mongolia on a motor bike trip once and a horse trip before that a few times. Then the 60 Csx which I did liked. Sucked for browsing, but following a pre-set trail (don’t use routes) was convenient. Maps sucked outside of the west at the time. Used smellybiker’s maps in South America, which were pretty decent. But liked it more for tracking the route for looking back in years out of interest. It also worked every time, except once when it rebooted itself and cleared the memory mid trip. Had no computer, so I was stuffed. Wouldn’t have had that issue with a smartphone, or the newer wifi version.
Got a Rino now for the buddy tracking function, and got to say. I think it’s shit. Garmin touch screens, the once I came across (Nuvi and Zumo’s included) sucks compared to phone ones. Wish I had the Csx back. I lost it on a single-trail ride.

Overall I’ve spent a fair bit of money on Garmin stuff, and in reality I didn’t have to do that. Could have spent it on the trip itself. THAT is the point of this thread that will help new bike travelers think about it a bit differently before they join the other Zumo or generally Garmin fan boys and drop a tonne of coin on something that is a luxury first, convenient second, but in some people’s mind redundant generally.

As Robbie says ,,

Time this thread was locked imho

whilst the debate between phones/gps is of use to travellers the thread turned into a one man campaign after page 1.

I use both a phone and garmin gps and without fail the garmin is quicker and more accurate. Loading osm is a 2 stage process for the gps over a 1 stage on the phone, big deal when the gps show more info off the blackstuff.

I still can't find an app that provides the same level of detail in the maps or the same off road navigation ability. Sure there are some android apps which look good but none seem to have accurate maps of North Africa which renders them useless for me.

In the time I've had my gps, my phone has needed hundreds of sw updates and app udates, the garmin probably half a dozen at most

"recalculating recalculating" er - operator error or out of date maps, not the hardware.

Bertrand's well balanced post says it all, much more helpful than the one he responded to or the subsequent replies

What was that about workmen blaming their tools?

All Free ,, TomTom to OSM ,, choose your needs,,,
 

Remember ,, most of your navigation requirement ,, be it on the bike,, walking ,, cycling,,, cars ,, boats or small plane,, are free. For more details ,, a nominal USD 1 to USD 100 ,, you can travel through most of this small planet,, without getting lost ,, using these tools.

First url mentiones 1,500 camp sites POI, in the world. Free.

Idea is simple,, yes for free,, and yes with out low qualty hardware and software. With out the terrible after service hassle.

Only two years ago , I was travelling with a big 35mm camera ,, a note book ,, two smart phones and two garmins. Only thing that failed me were the garmins.

For the next trip ,, I will be carrying just two smart phones,, one beaten one for the handle bar,,, a good one as a back up, with my passport and credit cards,, inside my money belt.

New apps are keep coming like the Niagara,,

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...hone-app-78384

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...mytracks&hl=en

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....android&hl=en

Locus Map, Android GPS offline maps for hiking, geocaching

CyclingAbout.com – The Best Apps for GPS Navigation on a Smartphone

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...avigator&hl=en

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...apswithme.maps

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...com.sygic.aura

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...?id=net.osmand

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....maverick.lite

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ctor.navigator

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...hme.maps&hl=en

iPhone - Smartphone - TomTom

How to use Google Maps offline mode on iOS, Android - CNET

It was your bloody idea ,, that got us all into this madness! :confused1:

Now go here ,, http://www.ioverlander.com/
read ,, then install the app on your phone,, go get the Walters Asia way points ,, with your phone, from the HUBB
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...aypoints-50860
His latest ,, then insert into the app.
You will get over 2,000 camp sites of the world. Plus there are tons more on the web. Read reviews ,, see the picture before adding to your POI


Europe GPS POI Files for Autoroute Aires, Wild Camping & Services | Europe By Camper - Travelling Europe By Motorhome

camping | POI Factory

In fact you can google ,, camp site poi by country or by region ,,
All free of course. Some 15,000 camp sites are mentioned.

Than you haven't been paying attention and are blaming the tools before you know how to use them.

Don't advocate closure if you don't even do that because this thread has all that info.

Show my one iPhone App that replicates olafs topo maps for Morocco/Western Sahara or comes close to the detail

I be been following this thread for a long time and run my own side by side comparisons of osm on the phone and gps unit whilst on trips and the phone either need mobile data or does'nt provide the same detail

I could write at length picking up to biased views from some but really can't be bothered.

I don't use iPhone. It's less than ideal for traveling to me with the dependence to iTunes.

But I'm sure Joe will pop by in a tick. Have you tried Avenza?

I would be surprised to hear that there aren't apps that let you geo reference topo maps. Haven't come across olafs topo maps so I don't know what they look like.

You've got the wrong app if you have accuracy issues though. As I said many times before, the Backcountry navigator doesn't have that issue at all, but the developer does have to do work on it to increase accuracy. It's not all in the hardware it seems.

Double post, sorry, b***d* advertising scripts slowing things to the point I can out type it!


Andy

I hope not. Lot's of useful info mixed in with the brand image/purchase guilt stuff.


I for one won't be buying anything else from TomTom (which replaced my Garmins after I also fell out with their less than useful attributes). I have to have the phone as a phone, so making it work as the navigation, music player, camera, thing for driving tent pegs into the ground is IMHO the way to go. Just getting going myself, hence Joe's info is great for me.


Andy

A good GPS unit definitely has its advantages over using a phone (I'd say that the bargain variety like my Garmin 60csx had more disadvantages tho). Riding fast in the dirt following a mapped track for instance is much better with a good GPS.

What I find objectionable is the impression that I've gotten from some folks in the past that unless you have XY and Z bit of expensive kit, you will surely be in great peril. This seems contrary to the DIY spirit of moto adventuring, and has little basis in reality. Reality is that I've been riding around in Africa for a year using an Iphone 4 in a $20 case running a 2 generations old operating system, and a free app with no problems whatsoever. :mchappy:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k...31.04%2BAM.png

So that's become a crux point of the debate. What's the advantage?

I used to think so as well but can't really backup that view anymore.

Jolly well done!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Hey, you've made the grade as a sticky thread sometime in the last 24 hours.
Congratulations - fame at last.
Just watch the viewing figures for your thread snowball now! :thumbup1:

Besides, Madness are a great band. :D

Apple vs Android and Windows Phones
 

This is going to be a another can of worms I will be opening ,, I know I know.
When Apple shares were 15 bucks each ,, 1998 or so ,, I said to buy APPL, on Nasdaq,,, well the rest is history. I was such a gungho Apple user ,, my whoe Manhattan flat was decked with Big Macs,, Mac Notes ,, Ipods ,,
Yes design was superior ,, OS was safer than the MSFT ,, graphics were more awesome. Price was 40% higher.

Now days ,, dumped all Apple shares and products ,, not long ago.

Tmottten mentioned being subjugated by the Itune and how Apple uses this and other tools to squeeze revenues, from you , is much a model that we have seen from garmin. I refuse to go along with it ,, first of all.
Meanwhile ,, Apple is becoming another garmin like ,, entrapped in it's own shell of smallness,, organization wise. Where else Android platform is being shared by the masses hence more solutions and contributions.
The nail in the coffin,, was until recenty, in Korea ,, Apple after service,, will not repair the units brought in ,, rather they made you buy a refurbished unit at 70% of the new cost ,, while taking your unit back. We sued the Korean Apple and they stopped this cheeky practice.

Iphone 6 has sold 10 million units in three days of launching ,, but they will not sell much from there,, for it is now a copy of the Galaxy Note 3,,
Already frought, with problems below,, how many Iphone afficianados are there in this world vs Android and Window users and manufacturers. Same old argument Mac vs Windows ,, more units ,, bigger market share ,, more APPS ,, more FREE stuffs ,, more accurate SOFTWARES ,, on and on.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...ype=blogs&_r=0

http://venturebeat.com/2014/09/23/wa...before-buying/

Bend test: Galaxy Note 3 vs. iPhone 6 Plus | Android and Me

http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/24/tech...one-bluetooth/

http://venturebeat.com/2014/09/24/ip...dware-testers/

http://www.latinopost.com/articles/8...s-detailed.htm

One BILLION smart phones sold in 2013... Look at Iphone numbers vs Androids,,, and you will see a history being made here.

Worldwide Smartphone Sales to End Users by Vendor in 2013 (Thousands of Units)
Company
2013
Units
2013 Market Share (%)
2012
Units
2012 Market Share (%)
Samsung
299,794.9
31.0
205,767.1
30.3
Apple
150,785.9
15.6
130,133.2
19.1
Huawei
46,609.4
4.8
27,168.7
4.0
LG Electronics
46,431.8
4.8
25,814.1
3.8
Lenovo
43,904.5
4.5
21,698.5
3.2
Others
380,249.3
39.3
269,526.6
39.6
Total
967,775.8
100.0
680,108.2
100.0
Source: Gartner (February 2014)

Almost 85 % of the phones being used are Android ,,
Do you want to look cool or ,, be practical?

A Garmin is expensive but a good investment which lasts for years. Sturdy and gives information of what one wants.
One would have bought
and gone thro a number of phones against the purchase of one Garmin.

Has that happened to you?

To rub the salt into an old would ,,
 

Since 1991 ,, garmin celebrated landmark 100 million units sold in 2012 ,,
Since 2011 ,, smart phones has sold some 1.5 billion units.

After 23 years, Garmin reaches 100 million devices sold - CNET

Post 2012... spiral death of garmin.

Now even MIT is calling a dire staight for the garmin. So our supposition is right.

Garmin’s Market for GPS Taken by Smartphones | MIT Technology Review

We alredy know , smart phones are,,,
Water proof ,,
Dust proof ,,
Impact proof ,,
Tons of FREE apps ,,
Already some with glove recognition ,, for those who plays with the screen,, while crusing at 130 KM per hour.

Now from here on ,, let us spend our energy, in discovering ,, new hardware... new and improved apps ,, new functionality of the apps ,, how to ,, and sharing of the personal experiences.
End of the g vs s debate.

Peace ,,

Oh one last thing,,
How many hours a year do you use your garmin?
Where,, one would use the smartphone 24/7 ,, sleep witht phone next to your pillow ,,camera,,video ,, youtube,, banking ,, online shopping ,, listen to music,,navigation,, sms ,, internet ,,, video conference,, memos ,, calculator ,, em,, gps ,, blue tooth ,, attch it to the car stereo or your B&O ,,, book a flight ,, wifi,,,dowload movies via torrent search and watch new movies before it hits the Leicester Square ,,,, CNN ,, BBC ,, TED Talk ,, Nova ,, porns ,, send greeting cards ,, compass,,, heart monitor ,, track calory intake,, gps tracking to let the family know where you are ,, track it to find your phone if stolen,, instant flash light ,, listen to audio books to help you fall asleep ,, draw pictures,,,on and on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Thats pretty reliable IMHO for those keep comparing the durability issue betwen g and s.
doh

Daily life is a bit different than being subjected to massive vibrations. But I haven't seen many accounts from people with first hand experience. It's just ECB just like garmin uses. Screen possibly a bit different, but insulate it from vibration adequately (variable parameter obviously) and adequately ventilation and I can't see the big deal.

As soon as I get a phone that lasts for 3 years and can get apps that can do whatever my GPS does I will switch to using a phone on the bike.

Yesterday I spend 4 hours to try to find an app for the phone who could project waypoints and make offroad-routes. But no luck! If I had used the hours for working I could have bought a small Garmin doh

But nothing lives forever, my old garmin before it died (after 90kkm):
http://actiontouring.com/pic/IS2003_0099.jpg


or the alternative :innocent:
http://actiontouring.com/pic/vanntett.jpg

What do you mean by projecting waypoints and make off-road routes?
My phones last that long typically. But must people upgrade anyway before that.

More multi-use kit! (I hear you can carry water this way too)


Andy

Projecting waypoints is a technique where you can make new waypoints based on an existing waypoint and distance and bearing to the next waypoint.
This is useful if you have the road/route is on your paper-map but not on the GPS. You can then make waypoints for your entire route and connect them together in an offroad-route (next subject).

A similar technique make it possible to backtrack your current location to the paper-map. This is very useful to doublecheck that you are on the right track/direction.

With MY smartphone it's not possible to project waypoints or even make a waypoint based on known coordinates. (some maps have coordinates and some literature also use coordinates (like Sahara Overland and Dürch Africa),

With my GPS I can make waypoints for the entire map if I know one location (typically an intersection).

An off-road route is a route that consists of straight lines between waypoints.
Used together with "projecting waypoints" (or waypoints from other sources like google-map, literature, friends etc) this give you a pretty good route even if you GPS doesn't show any roads. I find that the route typically gets 20% shorter then in real life, but at least it gives me some information about length and I can calculate need for food, water, petrol and if I need to spend a night or more on my way. You will also get other information like ETA, VMG etc. Off course the quality of this data depends on your waypoints etc.

Another use for off-road route is "combined routes", here you mix ordinary routes and offroad-routes.
Lets say that your route has a part where there is no road. Then you can start by making a ordinary route, swith to off.road mode to make the parts with no roads and then back to ordinary mode. Everything is stored as one route.
With MY phone, which only can make ordinary routes, I have to make one route for the first part, no route for the second part and another route for the last part.


All this complaints are about software. Maybe some of the issues are solved on other phones or they can be solved by free apps. As I sad I search for apps, yesterday with minor luck.
For me it doesn't help if an app is free if it doesn't work properly or I need to spend a lot of time finding it. Time is money!
Another thing is to trust code where you don't know anything about the development (50% of my work consists of developing software). I have also had apps that stopped to work after a while...

In my car I only drive on roads (hopefully) and my phone works great!


Yes, I'm hard on equipment....

As a rule of thumb I would say that marine electronics (so far I've only used marine equipment, right now 276C) has higher standard then consumer electronics.



I still have routes and tracks available for my GPS that I stored back in 1999 (on floppy-disks). I don't think my phone knows what a track is.

Getting waypoints in Uganda:
http://actiontouring.com/pic/ugamap.jpg

Ok, I think I get it, but isn't that 1990's use of a GPS? Wouldn't it be "better" to see yourself projected with an arrow symbol on a topo map that you use to find waypoints?

I don't navigate like that anymore but backcountry navigator has a compass view where you see the direction of the waypoint on it to travel to in a straight line. But on another view in that app you can see yourself and the trail you've done on the topo, so I don't see the need for it myself so can't tell you how good or bad it works. Not sure if you can link multiple waypoints to make a "join the dots" trail.

There are plenty of ways to protect any digital advice. Yo to the user how far he takes it. There are also supposed bomb proof android phones by niche brands. But if you can't luebe with dealing with a Tonka looking phone in normal use it may not be that useful.

Baba,,
Even using simple Sygic road map ,, I've found your solution by inserting projected waypoints, enroute to my final destination. You simply add the files and the software will route you through the waypoints,, Sygic is offline gps.

Also reading ,,, following programs also allows you to plan off line
and project waypoints as you said.
PathAway GPS Outdoor Navigation
http://backcountrynavigator.com/topographical-gps/

The title of this thread, and the original subject of the discussion, is "Smart Phone vs. dedicated GPS Navigator". I've paraphrased that a little bit in an attempt to return the focus of the discussion to this topic.

In my life, I've done a lot of navigation (I'm a retired aircraft pilot who primarily worked in lesser developed countries), and I've also done a lot of navigation system development (I beta-tested Garmin GPSRs on motorcycles for 6 years from 2001 to 2007, then headed up development of a complete avionics/navigation/flight management system design for a 19 seat commuter aircraft).

I think that the key issue in this discussion should be "horses for courses". There is a huge difference in philosophy and in application between a GPS navigator and a device that will display cartographic information. The two devices do different things and serve different purposes. There is a little bit of overlap, and that overlap is growing slowly as technology advances, but fundamentally, we're talking about two different things here.

Smartphones (or tablets, same concept) can display cartography, and they can do that very well. The cartography can be raster based or vector based. Most of the open-source vector based cartography (e.g. OSM) does not contain road attributes. Road attributes include minutia such as number of lanes, lane width, time of day restrictions, turn restrictions, presence of medians, vehicle restrictions (e.g. weight or width restrictions), and so forth.

None of the above is needed if the rider (or driver) is willing to do their own pilotage (navigation) as they go along, using the smartphone and open source cartography as an aid to navigation. In lesser developed countries where there are few roads, the value of road attributes to route planning diminishes - heck, just the fact that there is a road, or track, or path there is all one needs or wants to know.

On the other hand, a dedicated GPS Navigator normally uses a proprietary (closed source) cartographic database that contains a tremendous amount of attributes per road - in some cases, up to 60 attributes per road, and often images (facsimiles) of the overhead signs along the road. When used with a road navigation engine (the proprietary software of the navigator manufacturer), the navigation guidance given can be extraordinarily powerful, not only providing turn by turn direction, but also providing real-time traffic status (and traffic avoidance), speed camera warnings, on-the-fly rerouting in case of a turn error by the driver or a detour imposed by construction, and, of course, hundreds of thousands of waypoints along the way such as gas stations, hotels, and street addresses.

I'm primarily a street rider. I have a Honda PanEuropean (not a dirt bike by anyone's measure), and in the past 12 years, I've ridden it the length and breadth of Western and Central Europe, including bits of Asia and North Africa. I would never have done this without a GPS Navigator on my motorcycle.

I plan my routes using paper maps (usually Michelin), then I create routes that I will follow using the GPS Navigator. Sometimes I create these routes on a computer and load them into the navigator, sometimes I create them using the navigator as a stand-alone device.

I then go and ride the route - and enjoy it thoroughly - because I am continually being supplied with turn-by-turn route guidance by the navigator. This leaves me free to concentrate on my riding (safety, etc.), the scenery, the culture around me, and so forth. It's very similar to flying an aircraft when the flight plan has been entered into the Flight Management System prior to engine start. You just follow the prompts, and you are assured you will fly the desired path.

For a rider on a dual-sport or dedicated dirt bike who plans to cross deserts (or maybe just ride off-road in fully developed countries), a GPS navigator that uses only proprietary road navigation databases is of little use. But, position confirmation and immediate access to cartography (most especially if the 'own ship' position is plotted on top of the cartography) is extremely important. Smartphones or tablets and open source cartography can fulfill this need very nicely.

The more complex the road environment becomes - for example, in urban areas, or even on highways in countries where the rider is not familiar with the language (or perhaps even not familiar with the script used to write the local language), the greater the value of a GPS navigator.

Likewise, the more remote the environment becomes, in areas where there are few roads and few landmarks, the greater the value of multiple sources of cartography in its various forms (topographic, street mapping, even air photo based) becomes.

I think there are darn few riders out there who would attempt to cross a desert with only a dedicated GPS navigator running a proprietary database. But, by the same token, I think there are darn few riders out there who would suggest that anyone (street or dual-sport rider) attempt to navigate to a specific location in a large city using only cartography, without turn-by-turn guidance from a powerful and purpose-specific GPS navigation engine, based on a detailed database that contains as many road attributes as possible.

In summary: There's no clear winner in this comparison. We should use whatever technology makes the most sense and is most appropriate for the kind of riding we plan to do.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a related matter:

SeoulJoe, you have been dominating this discussion by continually beating your drum and grinding your axe against Garmin. In post #207 above, our forum moderator Bertrand wrote (my bold):

Please, back off, and recognize that there is no "right or wrong" in this discussion. In particular, stick to the subject at hand, and don't post ad hominem responses to others.

Michael

Good post but I disagree with your statement that a phone can't achieve the same results in urban areas as a dedicated GPS and it makes me think you haven't been following this thread at all or read over it.

Online and offline I use my phone for this constantly without failure.

In the Backcountry it's brilliant with the cartography as you described. Now with dedicated GPS having similar hardware as currently used in smartphones the only value would the maps that you suggested. But this was never great on dedicated units to begin with. With the introduction of GPS in mass market devices like the smartphone development in alternatives has skyrocketed to the point that is no longer the case.

There seem to be 2 different camps that argue against the smartphone as a replacement of a dedicated GPS. One saying it's no good in the backcountry with cartography, the other saying it is but it sucks with road navigation and turn turn. So the Garmin crowd can't seem to agree on its use and strong points.
Both arguments have been extensively covered and countered.
Hardware concerns have also been addressed.
It seems, by the recurring criticisms, that the valid responses to those criticisms are being ignored. Rather than keeping going with the same old invalid or discounted arguments, it may be more constructive to ask how a certain requirement could be achieved without a dedicated GPS. There are plenty of threads discussing what can be done with one. This one is or has become about doing it with something that you already have and use daily.

I find the criticism of the OP becoming increasingly offensive myself as it's moving towards calls for the OP to back off from his own thread which he had been keeping updated and factual, of which there have been positive responses. What's that all about. If ur would be misleading BS would be one thing. But this isn't. If you don't like it don't look at it.

PanEuropean ,, glad to have some one knowledgable on the subject join us,,

My hominem responses are backed by an intellectual analysys of several garmins, in many regions of the world, And yes everything in Korea costs 3 - 400% more than say USA or EEC ,, I have lost huge amount of good money ,, being abused by the garmin ,, I wrote about that in earlier posts.
CEO being a Taiwanese ,, all repairs are shipped to Taiwan,,, ( In Asia) we pay for the DHL charge of USD 90 per incident ,, then we have to pay USD 399 to add a Korean keyboard to the garmin software, On top of all this,, units has failed me and others miserably. Not to add the cost of the maps they sell.

This board is to get away from the monopoly of garmin and gain the freedom by using smartphones.

I also am a dedicated street rider ,, using my Harley Davidson Road King ,, had Sygic ,, in Europe ,, Asia ,, Australiasia ,, Russia ,, USA and South America. Both rural and urban settings ,, my smartphone connected with satts faster than the garmin,, even shows me how many satts and where ,,, Sygic comes with thousands of POI from camp sites to cigarette vendors. For adventure riders to Gobi and Uganda ,, you have other choice APPs ,, that details immense amount of info. Yes most cases for FREE. (Motels in Russia really helped,, thousands of them)

Yes I attack garmin ,, because I have been ripped off by them. Yes I am argumentive because ,, I truly believe we ,, motorcycle riders can benefit from using smartphones.
It seems ,, you have not been reading our arguments , rather paying more attention to my personality.

Explore the avaliable apps ,, see our logic behind our debate ,, look at the harware choices, from SATT phone attachement to good cameras.

If you look at the screen shot of this thread ,, Navigation + Maps,, already words mentioning Android ,, smartphone,, Ericsson,, Maps With Me ,, are taking up at least 30% of the sound bite.

Forget my hominemness ,,
Rather wonder if this thread is being sponsored by the Messrs; garmin

I think that there are more differences between the phone/tablet & open source map solution and the GPS navigator & proprietary cartography solution than you have described.

I'm going to limit my comparison (below) to off-line use of phones or tablets (meaning, not having a continuous data connection via telephony), because that would be prohibitively expensive for international touring, and the need for a data connection would render the phone/tablet useless in areas not served by a 3G or 4G phone network.

The proprietary cartographic database used by dedicated GPS navigators is, on average, about 600 MB in size for either North America or Europe. That implies considerable road attribute detail and numerous waypoints (fuel, hotel, etc.).

I don't believe that the open source cartography contains the same road attribute detail as the proprietary cartography, in particular, details such as turn restrictions, time of day restrictions, and lane definition. If it did, we would be seeing the manufacturers of GPS navigators using open source cartography, rather than paying vendors such as Navteq or Nokia for their proprietary cartography. There's no easy way that I am aware of to compare the qualities of different cartographic databases, but comparing size of the database (for the same area) will provide a 'rough order of magnitude' comparison of the level of detail provided in each database.

There is no doubt that the speed of the hardware (processors) provided in phones and tablets has increased dramatically in recent years, and it is this increase in processor speed that has enabled map display and some navigational guidance to be provided (offline) using phones and tablets. But, at the same time, the manufacturers of the dedicated GPS navigators have also taken advantage of increased processor speed and capabilities to enhance the guidance their products provide. Examples of this include lane guidance, photo-realistic display of overhead signs, and spoken street names.

I think that a good analogy would be comparing cameras embedded in today's crop of phones and tablets to conventional cameras manufactured by companies such as Nikon, Canon, or Hasselblad. Phone cameras today take a remarkably good picture, and have come a long way from the fuzzy, marginally acceptable pictures of 10 years ago. But, if you want to take the best possible picture under the most demanding and varied conditions (this being the analogy to urban navigation), a 'dedicated' camera will give you better performance than a phone camera.

The other side of the coin is that if you just need a photo to identify something, or to show to a friend, or to email to someone, then there's really no point in going out and spending all the money to buy a dedicated camera.

Like I said in my first post, it's a question of "horses for courses". The task one wants to achieve should drive the decision of what navigation system to use. It's a fool's game to try and say one solution is better than another without first doing task analysis.

Michael

Not sure about you premise in detail comparison.
However, the course you're after seems to be way out of scope for most. I've already pointed out that lots odd people stop paying attention to signs etc.

Well, my moto touring is very different than yours. I looked at your blog, and at the places you have been, and the only place that a dedicated GPS navigator with a commercial database would have done you any good (considering the cartography available at the time you made your trips) would have been on your Australia tour, and that was nearly 20 years ago.

Earlier this week, I finished a 10,000 km trip from Zurich to the Peloponnese and back, taking in all but one of the former Yugoslavian countries, all on pavement except for about 5 km. That 5 km was not intentional, believe me. :) A ST1100 is a lousy dirt bike.

You and I pursue very different approaches to international touring, hence, it's not at all surprising that we choose different navigation solutions.

Michael

Mein gott!
Today's smatphone gps navigaton DOES not require to have data ,, wifi ,, 3g 4g or any g!
These are stand alone dedicated navigation gps. All you need is an app, with map of your choice, which you simply download by clicking a button,, while on line via wifi or data network. FREE!
You obviously do not need to connect to a PC by USB, to download any map ,, or go to OSM.org for the hassle of learning to tile their maps ,, nor pay garmin outrageous prices. Especially if you are a street cruiser!
This is very good place to start... 62 million users and counting!

https://www.sygic.com/en

:smiliex:

This is one of a dozen reasons why this thread started, way back when there were a series of other such threads about smart phones in this forum which never really addressed the multitude of facets related to the subject.

The title of this thread, in total not paraphrased and as I understood it in "conversation" with seouljoe at that time, was to bring out the rapidly developing smart phone issues - hence, and just as one instance, I posted a couple of days ago about how dedicated trail riders in the UK are looking at using GPS to track/plan their riding.
i.e. "offroad" not on the established highways.

There has been some useful input in the past couple of days which relate to navigation across featureless terrain, whether it be at sea, in the air or across desert: useful because that input provides background information to the utility of GPS based navigation and how it is being used to provide increased levels of information to those driving tin-cans on 4 wheels.
Such developments are also being made for (as just one instance) heavy truck drivers so that they have no excuses for becoming stuck under low bridges or jammed between the houses of historic streets in the UK or between the dry stone walls of the byways.

But I believe the thread is supposed to be about using smart phones; peoples' experiences with the hardware (changing rapidly), the software (also changing rapidly) and the fixing of the kit to motorcycles (and perhaps other types of vehicles) in preference to the very heavy bias there has been within this forum to dedicated Satnav unts and garmin in particular (as someone else mentioned, at times the HUBB can appear to be a product placement forum for Garmin in particular).

I certainly see no reason whatsoever to get on the back of the OP and suggest that the thread be locked or that he should disown it by not making his views known.

I still use a really old second hand Garmin nuvi 205W and a tablet to navigate, but most of the time a few sticky notes on the screen suffice.

Smart phones on the march
 

An incidental report of yesterday:
The Android OS now has 85% of the smart phone market.
Apple takes another 11% which leaves the balance 4% for Blackberry et al to fight over.
(I didn't pick up if this report relates to the UK market or worldwide).

Who knows where this tech will be in, say, another 2 1/2 years (which is the time that has elapsed since seouljoe started this thread - so it really is all your fault Joe but no "the messenger should not be shot").

Wow ,, Walkabout,, here I am 19:17 hours in Seoul, Korea ,, listening to your prime minister and the bad boy Milliband, in the parliament,, live ,, debating,,why we need to bomb the xhit out of ISIS bastards,,
One should read a book called War of Religion ,, written pre 9/11 ,, he predicted very exact thing ,, but then the war of religion has been going on since the 16th century.
No , never shoot the messenger.
bier

Russia and 24,000 KM on my Galaxy 3
Enough vibration..
1)
진동 ,,, Vibration

Rest,,
2)
Cruise ll

3)
Seoul Joe Cruise ,,

Meanwhile, Sygic,, turn by turn directions,, in 3D,, even in a smallest Russian villages. Stored music rocking my soul..
One smartphone.

True, I try to plan my trips away from civilisation if at all possible, looking for contrast.

But that's not to say I don't do trips in the mean time. I just don't update the blog with them. Like Joe and I were pointing out, the type of navigation that you seek is where it all started. Yes, the file size off the established competition also increased which could be explained as more detail. Not sure about that one, but how much detail you are after to warrant spending hundreds of dollars on a device and then again on the maps depends on the course you seek for your horse.

Apps already have lane recognition, useful on big inter changes. But who aims for motorways on their route? Apps also do 3d maps (sygic I think, don't use it myself), but to me that's already too much detail.

+1. I've been looking at suggested apps over the years without replying. It might seem to an onlooker like Joe's crusade because of that. But not so. Very appreciated thread.

Joe:

I took a good look at the Sygic website today. Overall, I'm quite impressed with what their product appears to be able to do - provide route guidance with lane direction, provide traffic (though not by FM RDS, they use the cell network), identify speed limits on roads, support and use road attributes, and provide speed camera warnings.

I have not downloaded the application (at $70 for world coverage, that's a bit too expensive to download strictly for 'try-out' purposes, although it is certainly a reasonable price for the application and cartography). So, I have a few questions for you, as I presume this is the application you use.

1) What about the 'waterproof' issue? Are any of the Android smartphones waterproof (for example, IPX-7 rated, as most motorcycle GPS navigators are)? I use an iPhone, I know it is not waterproof.

If one puts the phone inside a waterproof case, is it still possible to control the navigation application via touch?

2) I note that Sygic states that their cartography comes with a lifetime licence for the Android platform. But, their application runs on both the Android and iPhone operating systems. Do you know what the cartography licence (and availability of free updates) is for the iPhone? I couldn't find that information on their website.

3) How much space does the cartography take up? My iPhone has 64 gb of storage (it is an iPhone 4S), of which about 30 GB could be made available for storing maps. Typically, there is a direct relationship between population of an area and map size for the same area. By way of example, how much space does it take to store all the cartography for South Korea (population 50 million, roughly the same as Germany)?

4) How does one cope with the cartography storage limits when moving from one country to another, or when traversing a large country such as the USA? Can zones of coverage be removed and added from the phone at will, using a Wi-Fi connection, or is computer support needed for storing all the cartography that won't fit on the phone?

5) I was a bit surprised to see that Sygic claims (on their Apple App Store website) to use the same cartography as Tom Tom. Is this commercial or open source software? I'm not familiar with Tom Tom cartography. Do you know who the major provider is, for example Navteq, Magellan, Nokia, OSM, etc.?

6) It appears that if one buys world coverage ($70) plus most of the bells and whistles offered as options (traffic notification, speed cameras, HUD, etc.), the full initial purchase cost will be about $100 to $130. Nothing wrong with that. But, how does this company generate ongoing revenue? Do they charge for application (software) updates? Or is it truly a 'pay once, use forever' service?

7) How is route planning carried out? Can it be done on a computer (rather than the phone)? My experience with route planning for aviation done on phones is that the phone is a lot more difficult (cumbersome) to use for route development and route planning than a traditional computer application, followed by transfer of the route to the phone.

Based on my initial review of the product, conducted by only looking at their website and app store entries, it is attractive. The only significant negative I can see (aside from relying on the phone itself for processing power and speed) is that they don't offer comprehensive coverage of many lesser developed countries (e.g. the Balkans), only 'major transit routes'.

Would appreciate whatever answers you can provide.

Michael

I can chime in on the gloves thing. Can't be of any help with Sygic sorry.

I've got an S4 which I use with an Ogio case. With mountain bike gloves here in Canadia, which are actually the same gloves I used riding trail bikes in Australia, I don't have any issues with the screen not responding. On the S4 you have to push into the case bevel a bit to get to the soft touch buttons as the case sits right on the edge of them, but Iphone's do have those.

In winter when snow shoeing, skiing or snowboarding I haven't had any issues with the e-gloves or the thinner glove mitten liners. Possibly sometimes the thumb can be hit and miss with e-gloves which is probably due to me not touching it with the capacitive bit.

Leather gloves may need some of that capacitive thread sewns in the tips, depending on the thickness.

As a comparison, on the Garmin resistive touch screens it's hit in miss comparable to using a capacitive touch screen with a thicker glove. Thicker than what I've described.

Personally, I think I'll stick to using my old S3 on my bike in a GPS for Less case because I take anecdotal failure evidence from Noel seriously enough to not want to go through the hassle of explaining my Mrs why I'm dealing with the phone company on getting an S5.

tmotten:

Do you mean that you can enclose the phone in a waterproof case and still control the touchscreen satisfactorily using the various gloves you mentioned?

The context I am thinking of here is a phone enclosed in a waterproof case mounted on a motorcycle (in the handlebar area, similar to where a dedicated GPS navigator would go).

I'm not concerned about using physical buttons on the phone, because those are not used by the navigation application. Everything is done through the touchscreen.

Michael

Yep. Everything but foam lined or thick leather gloves. Actually, I was wrong about thinner glove mitten liners. They don't work neither. Too thick to conduct. My mountain bike gloves are Fox motocross gloves and they work fine. But there are plenty of guys that sew a bit of conducting tread in the finger and thumb tip as well.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Maki...-Touch-Screen/

http://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-ha...screen-gloves/

You just actually motivated me to get some for my ski gloves. Maprika is an awesome app that tracks you across the resort map (not a plan view interpreted topo one but the ones they hand out). If you ski or board you should check it out. It's freaky but awesome.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...=Maprika&hl=en

!
 

More on Michaels last question..
You may not see the small roads in Balkan..at first.. but if expand the screen.. they will show up. Sygic also had frequent map updates free for life.
Sent from Sam Sung Galaxy Note 3

It's less necessary then it used to be but it's still handy if you:
-Go off-road
-Travel in areas with bad map-support
-Travel in areas with no map-support
-Ytavel a route which is not on the map
-Get waypoints from other sources

I would say that if you only go places which are supported by routable maps you don't need the navigation-functions. (That's why my Nokia fits when driving my car)

You still do that when you ride after an off-road route. (If there is a map for that area)

If you have a good topographic map there are no use in projecting waypoints, but features like off-road routes are still nice. I would say that a good navigation system, and the skill to use it, increases your safety a lot in rural places, it even makes it possible to stretch your limits a bit further.


As I said earlier all of this are software-issues and might be solved.
I briefly checked some of the links seouljoe posted, but most of the apps didn't fit my phone and there was hard/impossible to find any documentation concerning what the different apps can offer (beside fancy displays).
I can't see myself start to buy apps to find something that fits my need, unless I know that the products have the functions I want I will not be a customer.

Sorry for a late reply, the next will be even later because I'm going to a place where Nokia maps sucks and the price of an excellent map for garmin costs 300€.... :freezing:

Baba,, you have done some quality riding.
Take a close look at the backcountry navigator topo mentioned by tmotten.
I have downloaded very places of your travel and I can not imagine what more detail,, you want? This app will even show a pimple on the side of a sand dune in Gobi. Several choices of maps,, navigation ,, pois. Worldwide. Off Grid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OA2bZQ7vFk
http://backcountrynavigator.com/
BackCountry Navigator - YouTube

Yeah my favorite with a free trial. Decent price after that.
It can also use custom maps but I haven't had to do this yet. So if you have a paper map, get it scanned before you go, geo reference it and you should be good to go.
The developer has a weekly our monthly mailing list where he sends updates of features etc. So seems really approachable as well should you want to do something extraordinary.

This may be useful so someone:


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G...0/P1020396.JPG


I know Joe likes his speakers but this would not be a great idea here abouts. Over the years I have spent an amount on intercoms and similar that could make a chap quite miffed that a he'd found the £24 solution last of all. This £6 set of earphones packed with epoxy foam stuff from a £12 make-your-own earplugs kit passes the Vaughn-Williams test * at speeds that are illegal in the UK. Just put the headphones in, roll the putty, wait 10 minutes and pop out the made to measure sound set-up. I am actually not that miffed as my test run was 120 miles of sunny Yorkshire in the company of said Vaughn-Williams, a bit of Shostakovich etc. (Plus some pop ditty about experimental lesbianism my wife must have downloaded).


* the speed at which you can hear the middle sections of say the English Folk song suite but not find the loud bits painful seems a fair test of sound quality. The helmet speakers supplied by the intercom people seem to pass up to about 50 mph while a unit I converted to ear buds is good for 60. Add the earplug stuff and you get more than another 10 mph.


My Galaxy Y, powered from the USB mounted on the Guzzi is passing the V-W test and mixing in very usable GPS commands.


Has anyone tried noise cancelling headphones? The sort that subtract noise a microphone on the cord picks up should work well, but are a very costly experiment.


Andy

Bit of thread drift here, but:

I don't think any manufacturer has developed a noise cancelling sound system specifically designed for a motorcycle helmet because the very nature of a helmet precludes the usual strategy of sensing unwanted sound at a central boom microphone, then cancelling it out at the speakers.

The nature of unwanted sound in a motorcycle helmet is quite different from the nature of unwanted sound in (for example) an aircraft. I specified and used a noise cancelling headset in the aircraft I was responsible for. The noise present at the boom microphone (engine sound, propeller thrumming, rain hitting the windshield, etc.) was pretty much identical to the noise present at the two earcups, hence, the boom microphone could be used to detect and identify the sounds to be cancelled.

In a motorcycle helmet, the unwanted sound present at the rider's ears is quite different from the unwanted sound present at the microphone (located near the rider's lips). Wind buffeting noises at the sides of the helmet will be different than wind buffeting at the lower front of the helmet where the microphone is. Likewise, engine noise sensed at the rider's lips will be different in both amplitude and frequency from the engine noise that makes its way up to the rider's ears, this due to the internal sound insulation properties of the helmet.

For a motorcycle helmet noise cancellation system to work, each earpiece (presumably an earplug, because over the ear cups used in most noise cancelling systems would not be possible in a motorcycle helmet without compromising head impact protection, the primary purpose of the helmet) would have to have its own microphone located very close to the outside of the earpiece. Two signal processing systems would be needed (one for each side) because ambient noise within the helmet will vary from side to side depending on how the rider turns his head, or what the crosswinds are, or where the big truck you are passing is relative to the motorcycle.

Such technology could be developed, but it would be both complex and expensive. It would also probably require a cable connection between the helmet and motorcycle to power it, because the electrical demands would be too great to permit the system to be powered by a battery small enough to be acceptable for mounting within the helmet.

The use of an earpiece to deliver sound, as opposed to small flat speakers mounted within the helmet, also presents problems. I'm opposed to the idea of using an earpiece (earplug) to deliver sound because it presents a very great risk of skull injury if I take a tumble off the moto and the side of my helmet has a hard impact with the ground. It is for this reason that all the aftermarket helmet sound systems use speakers and not earplugs. The designer of a motorcycle helmet noise cancelling system would have to find a way to effectively cancel sound without using either earcups (like an aircraft headset) or earplugs (like pedestrian systems that plug into phones, etc.), and that would present a major challenge.

Michael

Well Joe, that didn't last long - about 4 days.
You must have upset some Mod or other because your input has been relegated to the lower divisions , otherwise known as the hubb pubb for the derision of the masses.
(nothing serious intended in here or words to that effect).

After all, this thread has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Garmins, navigation, GPS blah, blah.

[/QUOTE]....has been relegated to the lower divisions , otherwise known as the hubb pubb for the derision of the masses.
......

After all, this thread has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Garmins, navigation, GPS blah, blah.[/QUOTE]


Utterly bonkers!


All those links lost amongst threads of jokes and stuff better suited to ADVrider.


So, which Moderator owns a flat twin with two Garmins on the laser cut mount and a spare in the tin box?


Andy

I use a Garmin 60CSx unit (maps: OSM for most places (free and excellent), T4A (small cost) in southern Africa and Olaf (free and still v good) in Morocco) for navigating and a Samsung Galaxy S3 Mini smartphone for everything else.

On a bike (particularly riding off pavement) a cell phone is useless IMHO for navigating for the following reasons:

• Screen glare
• Fiddly touch screen with gloves and virtually impossible to operate while riding
• Lack of ruggedness (My Garmin has survived some big bike crashes and being underwater for 10 minutes: We've all seem the infamous Mongolia video... :( My phone would be in a 1000 pieces/dead if it had been on the handlebars)
• Battery life and (particularly) ease and reliability of charging from the bike's 12v battery
• Possible lack of proximity to a cell-phone transmitter mast (I'll stand corrected if someone can prove to me that smart phones talk to satellites as well as cell phone transmitter masts: I could do the research, but need to get back to work :thumbup1: )

Hi guys
Just gonna lock this thread TEMPORARILY while some PM traffic takes place to clarify why this thread was moved to the PUB.

I'm not involved in the PM traffic (nor do I wish to be invited!!), but I'm getting bored of constantly having to delete copy-posts by the same user that another mod had previously deleted.

Thanks for your undertanding :Beach:

Thread opened and back in the GPS forum - there IS lots of good stuff and good discussion here. BUT if the religious zealotry returns and all the rest of the crap - and certain ones of you know what I mean - then it will be deleted. The thread, not the post...:censored:

Really we ought to be talking about software, as that is the big differentiator. The hardware is all similar, bar little differences.

Garmin software hasn't been available on mobiles since 2007. Most poeple use garmin file types when sharing data, routes, waypoints etc.. So garmin devices have a big advantage there.

I agree with you in principle, but don't discount the hardware differences between purpose-built navigation devices and smartphones.

One of the most significant hardware differences is the position update rate. Most dedicated navigation devices (aircraft, auto, or moto) update at 5 cycles per second. Most smartphones update at 1 cycle per second, primarily to save power.

At a steady speed on a steady course, the difference in update rates makes very little difference. When manouvering, especially when route recalculations are taking place, the difference in performance between the 5Hz and 1Hz update rates is very noticeable.

That's a good point.

Just closing the loop from earlier times.

It seems to me that it remains a case of horses for courses.
Everyone owns a smart phone nowadays (don't they?) but not everyone needs a dedicated GPS unit, or even wants one.

For sure, absolutely.

I mean, if I want to make a phone call, or check my email, or surf the web, I'll choose a smartphone to do those jobs. With a lot of fooling around, extra software, and compromises, I suppose I could accomplish those tasks on my GPS navigator, but honestly, it wasn't designed primarily for those purposes, and the result is a bit like a dog walking on its hind legs: What is remarkable is not how well the dog does it, but simply that the dog can do it.

The corollary, of course, is that if I want navigational guidance on a fast moving motorcycle, obviously, I'll choose to use a GPS navigator to do that job.

:)

Sorry, muy tres :offtopic: , but what if the dog can walk on it's front legs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbsL...ature=youtu.be

:D ?

Oh my goodness... It is going to take me weeks to figure out a matching analogy for that.

Uh... maybe: If the dog can walk on its front legs, would that correspond to getting navigational guidance from a smartwatch? :tongue2:

http://zagg-blog.s3.amazonaws.com/co...on-300x162.png

Actually, most apps allow for GPX (or GPS Exchange Format) and other file type exchange. That's the beauty of using the Android and less so the Iphone platform. It's up to the developer of the app to work out, and design for the available hardware that's available within his or hers design scope. More developers are working on these kinds of apps, than at Garmin, Tomtom or whoever you choose.

The same point applies here. Yes, it was primarily designed by the hardware manufacturer to be a multi use device. No longer starting with the phone, but now all the periphery. However, it's up to the software designer to make full use of the available hardware. I use Backcountry navigator a lot, so automatically will refer to it. This makes full use of the GPS and other hardware far beyond other apps I've used. Making it a full use GPS mapping tool with free topo apps, that out performs my garmin's or Toyota sat nav in usability (excluding turn by turn which isn't in the scope of a backcountry app). Give it a go if you like to see how strong and accurate the signal is.

It washes away the argument that a phone GPS can't be strong and accurate.

Isn't a watch (smart or not) the key to the whole navigation thing anyway? And, if my ancient memories are also correct (and remembering I haven't navigated without some sort of electrical device this century (and before that a Sinclair calculator beat the ****y tables)), wasn't the competitor to John Harrison some animal tormenting loon who thought a dog cut open in London would cause one in the Caribbean to howl?




Andy

Longitude
 

That is certainly the case although I do not recall anything about howling dogs.
My knowledge of the story of the measurement of Longitude is primarily based on the Dava Sobel book of that title, namely "Longitude".

Software food for thought
 

For the hardware there are differences such as the water resistant, ruggedized versions that have been referenced earlier and the thread was started in order to explore such developments.

For software, I have just re-read the whole thread to remind myself of the themes herein.
There is very little reference to iPhones and their technology in here, so sticking with Android (more or less), the softwares identified in here are:-
Locus
OSMAnd
Navfree
MapDroyd
Backcountry Navigator
Androzic (Oziexplorer?)
Sourceforge
Soviet Military Maps Free
Mapquest
Google Maps
Skobbler
Viewranger
Sygic
Navigon (now owned by Garmin)
Tom Tom on Android
Ovimaps (therein lies a story)
MapsWithMe
MotionX
Navit
iOverlander (this slipped in as an IPhone OS?)
Avenza
PathAway


A number of these tap straight into Open Street Map (OSM), increasingly so it seems to me; Mapquest for example.
Nor do all of these exist nowadays - 2+ years is a long time in the software business.

3 links mentioned earlier that deal with reviews of such software are:-

GPS - Some options - RibbleValleyTRF

New Free Samsung GT-N8000 Galaxy Note 800 / GT-N8010 Galaxy Note 10.1 Maps Apps Download

Android Sat Nav Apps

And another one I have come across more recently:-
Pocket GPS World - SatNavs | GPS | Speed Cameras

But it is not clear that any of these review sites are particularly up to date with whatever the current offerings are for GPS/navigation software on smartphones/tablets.
Much less do they point toward the winners and losers in this game, except in the most general of terms.

More research
 

Realising just how dated some information in here has become over the past couple of years I've been looking elsewhere for current developments.
e.g. the trucking community has this to play with:-
10 Best Apps for Truck Routes (android) | AppCrawlr

Whereas my search for specialist android software related to motorcycles brings up far less info but there is some on the market now and it can't be long before more developers join in:-
TRASSER - Motorcycle routes (android) | AppCrawlr
It's my impression that developers based in eastern Europe are quite active in writing stuff for the android OS.

That appcrawlr search can find apps related to iPhones also, but I don't have one of those so someone else can look.

A more recent review of the subject is here (just over a year ago so not too shabby):-
Going the distance: The 10 best mapping apps for Android | News | TechRadar

Turn by turn
 

I forgot to mention the turn-by-turn requirement that some folks have:-
The Best Turn-By-Turn Navigation App for Android

Not everyones cup of chai, but there seems to be plenty of healthy competition for that customer.

Just coming to the end of my 2014 trip and had both the iPhone and the montana running osm side by side and every time th egarmin worked better, quicker to get a signal quicker to lock position.

The phone also over heated several time (easy fix) but was virtually unusable on piste and not visible in bright sunlight. Also had a chat with a lot of other overlander and not one used a smartphone as their navigation but as a back up.

Which app and case were you using?

I'm surprised about all these overheating issues. A friend of mine uses his in a generic otter box in Queensland Australia without any of those problems. Another used his in a life proof all over Australia. Should have gotten plenty hot.

I do know that some apps are not available on iPhone. Possibly due to hardware and license issues? My experience is off easy and accurate signals without interruptions. It does depends on the app though. There are some dogs out there.

I'm not greatly surprised, but speed of "lock on" is not a major criteria in my book.
If I was flying in a fast jet at 1 KM per 4 sec I would be more concerned.

I would think the Apple store sales people would say something on the lines of "you need the latest iPhone 6 or even a 6+" (whatever exactly they are; I have no clue but it is not possible to miss the current advertising).

As per the last post, the particular app is likely to be a major factor, hence the list that I summarised above.

Your right speed isn't an issue but not be able the screen in most conditions is and the phones has an anti glare screen protector already. No case either as its on a dash mount.

With the overheating at the time it was in direct sunlight through the screen whilst heading west. But the mounts places it directly in front of an air vent blowing air over it. Only happened a couple of times.

I'm using pocket earth pro and not really for navigation just comparing the two side by side so it was tracking position and displaying position etc. it's probably not the best app but 99p in a sale and works off line.

Where the phone and app does cme in handy is poi in towns as for some reason the osm poi don't work on the garmin

totally understood and I agree: I have the same issue with my garmin nuvi on the bike and I use a home made anti-glare "device" around the screen to reduce the direct sunlight (a margarine tub swathed in black tape - empty of marg of course).

It sounds like you are on 4, or more, wheels, in which case it is much easier to protect the screen from direct light.

I haven't come across that app before; I think I read that it is available on android also. Either way, it is another consideration alongside the 22 listed above.
appcrawlr has reviews of it along with their suggested alternatives:
12 Best Alternatives to Pocket Earth Lite (Offline Maps & Travel Guides) (iPhone) | AppCrawlr

Bump starting a GPS system
 

Regarding the speed of locking on a GPS, there is an explanation here about starting up a GPS:-

"Cold Starts & Warm Starts Explained
Often manufacturers and reviews will refer to Factory, Cold and Warm Start times. Understanding the above, these can be simply explained as follows:
Factory Start
All data is considered invalid.
Cold Start
Almanac data is current but Ephemeris is not or has expired.
Warm Start
Both Almanac and Ephemeris data is current.
To compute a PVT (position velocity time) solution the receiver will look for satellites based on where it 'thinks' it is roughly located and the almanac if current. If it finds one or more of the satellites it expects to see it will lock onto that satellite and begin downloading ephemeris data. Once data from three satellites has been received an accurate positional fix is calculated.

If you are moving whilst trying to obtain a fix this process may take much longer than it would if you were stationary. Your receiver must complete reception of ephemeris data without error, this data is transmitted in three packets. Should any one packet not be received completely without error then it must start over again. Clearly doing this whilst moving leads to much higher error rates and longer fix times. Considerably less than a second of interruption is enough to mean the receiver will have to wait for the next transmission.

If you are attempting a lock having re-located more than a couple of hundred miles since your last fix then the ephemeris data will in most cases no longer be valid. The receiver will be looking for satellites in the sky above that cannot be seen because of your re-location. In this case the receiver will initiate a factory start and begin downloading both almanac and ephemeris data. This will extend the initial time to lock considerably. This is why your GPS is so slow to calculate a fix when you switch it on in your hire-car at the airport!"

As abstracted from How does the Global Positioning System (GPS) work ?
For anyone who wants to know more about the context of the abstract shown above.

2 pence
 

That is odd- Have you tried:

• Where To
• All Pois

On my units, this is how you find POI's built into the maps - any maps - including OSM

As far as having a slow device, I can't say I agree- For me, it is no fun sitting on a cooking engine or under the rain at standstill in an unknown town (which is where Turn-by-Turn is really appreciated) waiting for directions due to the receiver/processor not being good enough in built up (concrete and steel) or poor signal areas.

I enjoy my GPS & Glonass enabled units- for they really make a difference especially when routing and taking a wrong turn- Maybe Garmin will add Beidou to the next generation- hopefully by the time China will open its borders without travel restrictions ( yes, I know- it is a long shot! doh)

I also used and compared many android nav apps and the one I kept is the free app called MapFactor Navigator but it is not as accurate nor as responsive as my bespoke satnavs- I also find that my smartphone also heats up a great deal ( no brands mentioned!)- The maps rotate to direction of travel and a host more of useful features too.

If without any other electronic nav aid, it does work better than those others I have tried, keeps OSM maps updated and stored either in your phones' memory or in the sd card- you chose. It does not replace a bespoke sat.nav unit imho.
As a backup, (or main unit) although the smaller screen makes it harder to read when moving along- I recommend the 64 series and in particular the ST as it offers the largest available memory capability ( at the moment!) -

I'll doublecheck but yes I have, I'm typing this in a grotty campsite in Asilah, OSM has the POI but the garmin says there are no campsites when I search for one. Osm running on the phone app displays the poi as well

Sounds like you've been using crap apps. Give Backcountry Navigator a go. I stopped taking a dedicated GPS into the backcountry ages ago.

No, I don't have shares in that venture. It's just awesome.

10 best apps - but which are they??
 

Therein lies one of the prime reasons for this thread: I have played around with a few apps over the past couple of years (some are in the list above and some are not) but I haven't found significant differences between them to be worth noting for myself, much less worth putting in print.
Basically, they all do the task, more or less, and it is difficult to beat "free".

In summary, I've been on cruise control just noting the input in Seouljoe's thead, and elsewhere. :innocent:

It is still a growing market, with both more customers and more software writers/developers - surely they can't all survive in the market, so it is much more complex than, for example, the issue of Betamax Vs VHS which was a simple two horse race in comparison.

I guess they are on bikes and not other vehicles, using a box.
How are these guys fixing the boxes to their bikes?
Typical in the UK are these, and similar:-
Black Splash Proof Bicycle Bike Frame Case Cover For iPhone 5 5S iPod Touch 5 | eBay
This one comes from Hong Kong - half way around the world for £7.

How depends on your creativity. The plastic ball/socket mounts are suspect to me for long distance. A Ram style ubolt design is probably better.

A friend of mine placed his on his handle bar clamps of his trail bike. He used a generic pelican case at 1 point, and "upgraded" so this one I believe after that.
Pelican i1015 Case

Still no touch screen capability, but that's just 1 example.
For trail riding you tend to stop to navigate anyway. It's more a case of "where did the path go" rather than "turn right at the next intersection".

This aspect/subject hasn't really been explored but just mentioned now and again viz a viz the increasing sophistication of the technology, or perhaps the latter is all just a ploy of the marketing people?
= the whole philosophy of using a GPS, what peoples' expectations are when they "grab the technology" with or without some level of understanding of what it does.
And then there are all those people who just got by before GPS was invented/developed and they just did not know what they were "missing" from their future lives.

I didn't realise until a few days ago that Garmin are selling tyre pressure monitors (about £70 a pair) - presumably they feedback to the Garmin display so you can have the lats and longs for where you deliberately reduced your pressures to go dirt riding.
How cool is that!!

Ha ha. Saves putting in a way point. They should do that for fuel. Not sure how it would work but it would be convenient.

Not sure if this hasn't been explorered. People want what they want. Most people don't like making decisions and will follow the directions all the way into the ocean. This actually happened!
It's all started with turn by turn for the phone to help out the lost city dwellers. The big shortcoming used to be the lack of ability in the back country, but they've exceeded the establishment on that now too.
I just mentioned that in anticipation of criticism for providing a solution that doesn't involve the ability to use the touch screen. I've got a case from GPS for less but haven't tried it out enough yet to comment. Apparently the life proof case had a used by date, but it was pretty long in my mind. About a year from memory.

There is a regional element within the discussions in here i.e. what may be on sale on one continent may not be easily available on another. An exception is the software which has pretty much blown apart earlier efforts in some markets to protect those same markets (with such devices as regional DVDs).
You prompted me to search for "gps for less" which here in the UK brings up this type of product for fixing a phone to a bike.
Samsung Galaxy S4 Tough Waterproof Mount Case By Ultimate Adodns


[QUOTE=tmotten;483672 People want what they want..[/QUOTE]
Yep, and not necessarily what they need: so marketing works OK.

They trade under GPS for less on eBay. I bought their stuff when I was living in Australia last year. Their charging gear is really good. Cases also thus far.

Ah ha I double checked and the pois are there it's just garmins search doesn't pick them up. So if I go to where to and then select campsite everything it gives me is in a different country coincidentally the closest country I have a garmin map installed for. Bit of a PITA but I like free stuff and OSM is great.

Another point getting back to the topic - how many smart phones can run of AA batteries if needed? Yes I know there's options for emergency battery banks or solar chargers but I'm talking in the back end of no where when everything else to provide power fails but the one village shop has AA duracells

I also like OSM and have a lot of regard for what all those people are doing in collaboratively building the data, constantly updating.
Like you I have also found that my old Nuvi doesn't react too well when searching for things when I have the OSM map selected: I found this a while ago when playing around with said garmin and as a consequence I have tended to not select the OSM maps on the SD card but revert to Garmins's own maps either in the Nuvi memory or on other SD cards.
It's a shame, but the saving grace for me has been the number of phone apps which are adopting OSM mapping. They do this either directly or via others, such as Mapquest who provide access to OSM.

There are probably no smartphones which power directly from AAs but it is quite OK to plug into any USB socket - on a tablet, a notebook, a computer, a 5V socket on the vehicle 12V system or even one of these if you really do want to utilize AAs:-
PortaPow AA USB Emergency Charger
Good value at £5.

Osm gets better daily.

The batteries point is a minor one but for some people might be useful. I know my phone won't run on battery power for very long whilst using gps but my Montana and pocket full of AA's would get my to safety/help if the truck got stuck and I was one foot.

Maps
 

Maps being the fundamental behind all of the navigation discussed in here I turned to reviewing where we are nowadays with digital maps.
A long while ago I used to access Multimap, a UK based company, but now I see that they have been gobbled up by Bing mapping - so now it is part of the Microsoft empire.
Multimap.com - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The owner of multimap did OK out of the deal also; all the more kudos to the OSM contributors.

List of maps of the UK and Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Incidentally, on the hardware front, it was forecast a while back by Seouljoe that MS would drop the Nokia moniker: sure enough:-
Microsoft looks set to drop Nokia name from smartphones

Besides the plethora of AA chargers out there, there are also heaps of solar options. No need to ever run out of battery.

For an 8 hour hike my S4 only uses about 20% battery depending on how often I check the screen. If it's cold, or it's not full to begin with, I bring a chocolate bar sized backup battery. They given them away as marketing material now.