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Isuzu or Mazda engine in Landrover
Hi all,
I have read that in Oz a popular replacement for the Tdi engine is a Mazda or Isuzu. I have a '96 Discovery manual with a 300 Tdi engine. Recently, after a long session of dune bashing I became disappointed with the engine's performance and reliability. I need a lump that has more power (withing the reasonable limits of the LR drivetrain) and has a better reliability record. Any suggestions, please, as well as reflections on the use of non-standard engines for overlanding? ------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
Have you considered beefing up your existing lump? I know someone who has transformed his 300TDi by fitting a Twisted Animations intercooler. This is a straight forward replacement rather than the much bigger unit that some other outfits produce. He is now going to fit the rest of their gear. Go to http://www.yorkshire4x4.co.uk/performance.html to find out more.
Also, more power may not be the entire answer to your problem. A standard Disco is fitted with either 205R16 or 235/70R16 tyres giving a rolling circumpherence when correctly inflated of 231cm (approx) compared to the 253cm (approx) achieved by the 235/85R16s fitted to 110s or the 252cm of a 750R16. This means that the Disco is digging its way into the sand much more than the 110s and TLCs. I've been researching this for a while now and am fairly confident that it should be relatively straight forward to fit my Disco with 235/85s. This would increase the overall wheel diameter by approx 2.38 inches. The Kalahari Disco produced by Safari Gard is increased by a massive 3.76 inches if my calculations are correct. See details here: http://www.safarigard.com/Stage4.htm. |
Terry,
I've been thrugh this before, bigger tyres, Twisted Animations intercooler, etc. Still, the disco cant't go over soft sand in high range due to lack of oomph. BTW, bigger tyres reduce torque at the wheels. ------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
Hi Roman
I took a LR 130 ex-utility on my London to CT trip.It had an Isuzu 2.8TDi, which was professionally fitted by an outfit in Gloucestershire. It was mated to a Range Rover 4 speed manual Gearbox and proved quite economical, with plenty of pull and never let us down. However, I would think about the availability of spare parts etc before going ahead - I don't think I would risk it again. Hope this helps Regards ChrisC ------------------ ChrisC |
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChrisC:
However, I would think about the availability of spare parts etc before going ahead - I don't think I would risk it again <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Chris, I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Is availability of spares for the Isuzu engine a problem, or are you talking about the 300 Tdi? My impression is that in most places in Africa Isuzu is a common thing while anything built after Landrover Series III is pretty rare. What else makes sense then, a Toyota? ------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
The only common vehicle in North Africa is the TLC. I've only ever seen one locally registered 110, a few Nissan Patrols and some Ladas. I don't recall ever seeing a local Disco, Mitsubishi or Isuzu.
Your point about torque is well made. I've heard of a big powerful Japanese lump that is relatively basic and can be fitted into Landys. Will try and get details after Christmas. |
Hi Roman
You write: "I became disappointed with the engine's performance and reliability" I am intrigued to know what your reliability problems were. I have the same Discovery as you and use it for much the same off-road challenges. I am personally against making up a bastard machine with a transplant engine – I would prefer to buy a different car if the present one isn’t powerful enough, rather than altering the torque, weight distribution and balance of the original specification. You want to go dune bashing in top gear? Doubtless your over-sized wheels are increasing the radius, increasing power demand per engine revs, and reducing the torque as a result. The Discovery develops power in a fairly small rpm band and to change one specification probably creates gaps at another point. Having so said, big is beautiful and I would be pleased to know what you decide – keep in contact. ‘Tis the season of goodwill – again – and I have sent all my readers a CHRISTMAS CARD on my website. Check it out... it will make you laugh! I have also written a short Morocco diary which is on the travel page. More pictures will follow after the Turkey- and-Plum-Pudding festival… Best regards Kitmax ------------------ Kitmax - Traveller Desert Pictures at http://www.kitmax.com/kitmax/kit03ph...velgallery.htm homepage http://www.kitmax.com |
Oi Roman,
I guess you've been through the usual performance boosting operations of the 300 tdi, removing the EGR and the fuel catalyst - both operations together would give you an extra 20bhp or so... =) There's also the possibility to turn up the turbo preassure some, w/ 10-15bhp or so, w/o worriyng to much about wrecking the turbo... ;^) I run a -95 Disco 300Tdi (tweaked 20+bhp)nowadays but wouldn't wanna take that to africa though, would prefer a TLC 60- or 75-series for that, the 300Tdi is to sluggish, especially w/ the auto transmission like I have... =( best regards Johan G* |
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kitmax:
I am intrigued to know what your reliability problems were. I have the same Discovery as you and use it for much the same off-road challenges.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Kit, In my case the problem was the turbo, It had failed a few months before the trip and was later reconditioned. In Africa, it worked fine for most of the time but just before the end the bearings went and the turbo had to be bypassed.The lack of power did not prevent me from reaching Tunis, but it was not quite how I envisaged the end the trip. One of the reasons for the failure was the fact that most of the time the engine had to work really hard. Where the Landcruisers had enough power to climb the dunes in high range, only changing down to first or second to pick up speed, They had enough power to build up speed and use the momentum, I had to start the run-up in low range to prevent the engine from stalling and rev it high to carry on. No wonder that after a few days of such inspired driving something had to give. I admit the turbo was past its prime, but reliability aside the Discovery 2.5 Tdi engine is, in my opinion, a liability when it comes to desert driving. I share your reservations about the mix and match approach. On the other hand, if it weren't for the engine the Discovery would be a fine vehicle. I have put a lot of money and effort into making it a true overlanding transport.Switching to a Landcruiser now would require me to learn a whole new bag of tricks, and a considerable investment to recreate the solutions tested in the Discovery. I'd also cut myself off the supply of spares and accessories availbale in the UK, Engine swap has potential pitfalls, but would enable me to get the best of both worlds. It is all down to the cost of such conversions. If it could be done at a reasonable price but without compromising quality, I think it woud be worth trying. The problem is I have not yet found any one who could do it on these terms. ------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
There are two problems fitting a Japanese diesel into a Disco; size and weight. You could just about squeeze in a six cylinder engine, but it would take a lot of major surgery.
Your best bet would be the four cylinder Mazda engine. It will fit and delivers a lot more poke, but . . . it is heavy. I don’t know if it would take you over the front axle’s maximum loading of 1,200kg. To do the job properly would cost in the order of six and a half grand. Try contacting John Bowden of Gumtree 4x4 on 01444-241457. Alternatively, if you want to stay with the Disco you could convert it to a V8. This would lighten the vehicle and deliver more power (and be reliable), but your fuel costs will go up of course. One other possible option would be to fit a serious chip upgrade with a switch, so that you can do most of your driving on the normal chip and only use the meaty one when you need the welly. Otherwise your reliability will degrade considerably. The sad fact is that under most circumstances the TLC outperforms the Disco. The TLCs have six cylinders with more cubic capacity, and a chassis built to carry it. If you want to keep up with a TLC then you’ll have to buy a TLC. But when it comes to axle articulation, then all modern Landies win. So on the hard piste from Hirhafok to Assekrem a Disco is best. (Just thought I’d mention that in case you-know-who gets the wrong idea.) |
Hi all
Well I can probabily claim the heavyiest vehicle totting a 300Tdi engine. In Libya my 300 Tdi pulled my 101 Ambi around and over anything I asked it for - that included a fair bit of dune bashing OK so the gearing of a 101 helps but I did it in low box 3rd alot of the time Now mine does have a larger intercooler on it - although probabily not as big as some of the fern/allard creations (but it will have soon as it gets its allisport intercooler). The twisted animations intercooler is small compared to these. As for other engines, Isuzzu seems to be used around a fair bit of Africa (east/south especally) but Mazda - can't remember seeing any so for Spares I'd go for Isuzzu or Nissan or the mighty Toyota. Talking with people in South africa they had alot if respect for the 300Tdi bein used in fairly wild places and racking up impressive km's. For ease of fixing and spares its always better to stick with the manufacturers engine for the vehicle. You can get alot more out of the 300Tdi Regards Rich |
In Northeren Spain all the old [and new]Santana/Land-Rovers are still running on Iveco's, the range of modern Iveco engines is impressive, [Iveco engines never stop]. that's why nobody talk's about them.
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Hello fellow LR-enthusiasts,
I drive a '95 disco as well ; a great car. The problem is, people want always more and more. I started with a series III '88 2.3 NA diesel engine witch had al lot less power then the 300tdi but nevertheless in '83 they managed to drive the Camel Trophy with these vehicles!!! Driving is more then to floor the throttle and hoping you reach the top of that dune. Indeed the disco is a heavy car and fully loaded not as fast as other brands, especially with the automatic gearbox. Driving style and experience should compensate for that. The 300tdi should reach 350.000 kms without big problems. Problems with the turbo occur when you switch the engine off immediatly after having driven it at high engine-speeds. You should leave the engine idle for a few minutes before switching off. A very powerful engine is the 6,2 or 6,5 V8 diesel (or turbo diesel) from GMC. A heavy engine but with loads of torque. Should fit in. Keep the LR-spirit high. Karel. |
I'd go with a bigger turbo and intercooler. I've seen 300 tdi racers beat 4.6 V8's!!. Like someone said earlier, the TLC's are very powerful, but the Land Rovers have very good articulation (and a bit more character!!). Get one of these babies breathing fire, and your laughing! Matt Savage. www.mattsavage.co.uk
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Hi Roman
sorry my reply is so late but I have recently return from abroad. What I meant was - just make sure that spares for whatever engine you choose are not a problem to locate. My personal opinion would be that if the vehicle is - A. not reliable enough. B. not powerful enough then you should consider changing to a Landcruiser. Cheers ChrisC ------------------ ChrisC |
Hi all,
I now stand convinced my attempts at further improving landrovers have reached an end. Does any one know good landcruiser clubs and newsgroups? ------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
Roman,
bullshit, stay with your disco. The grass is always greener on the other side. Indeed toyota has a very good engine (4,2 diesel) but they have downsides as well. I don't believe the 300tdi (with all the possible upgrades) is not up to the task. Karel (discolover) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roman: Hi all, I now stand convinced my attempts at further improving landrovers have reached an end. Does any one know good landcruiser clubs and newsgroups? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> |
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karellevrau:
The problem is, people want always more and more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Karel rightly reproaches people for demonstrating the deplorable habit of wanting more. In this example, the perceived lack of engine power may point to weak ego, lacking self-esteem and the effect of aging on male virility. Quote:
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------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
Roman
libya seems along time a go.I am going to stay with the tdi in the defender but with a bigger intercooler. I have been told that L/cruiser 6cyl egines have a problem with the heads cracking, can any one verify this ?steve |
Hi Roman,
For what it's worth, what are your thoughts on replacing your 300 Tdi with a Rover 3.5l V8? I've had quite a bit of experience with two 110 Defenders with this engine in Jordan over the past couple of years and have on the whole been very impressed, especially when compared to the Toyota Hiluxes and Prado I've used over the same terrain. Even in the ridiculously soft sand you find to the south of Wadi Rum, I've had no more problems in high range than you'd expect, whereas I've found the Toyotas to be a significantly underpowered. In my experience, given regular maintenance the V8 itself is an extremely reliable engine, which is more than you than you can say for the associated fittings on the Defender, especially clutch cylinders, which have given me endless trouble. For the record, Syria is a good and cheap place to have mechanical work done on V8s. Parts are reasonably cheap and mechanics are very familiar with engine because of all the Range Rovers used by the government and military. Alex |
Forget to mention, but fuel consumption with the V8 can be kept within reasonable limits by taking it very, very easy on the tarmac and desert tracks. In the sands of course it's a different matter!
Alex |
>it's this faith that keeps us going, despite snapped half-shafts, broken diffs, asthmatic engines and leaking water pumps.
Normally I stay out of the eternal PC versus Mac debate, but this is what amazes me about you LR guys (and I've had 7 of them!...). in the desert there is enougn to worry about... IMHO what is so frustrating is that LR-ing is such a lottery - eg; Kitmax + all the LRs I've travelled with (if not then ones I owned...) never missed a beat in the dz, and yet Roman's Disco is a dog. Why is that? Me, I couldn't bear the suspense and lately, neither could Tom Sheppard. >its always better to stick with the manufacturers engine for the vehicle. I agree - see p.79 >A very powerful engine is the 6,2 or 6,5 V8 diesel (or turbo diesel) from GMC. with loads of torque. Should fit in. ...and will surely eat the standard transmission alive... >.... most of the time the engine had to work really hard. Where the Landcruisers had enough power to climb the dunes in high range, only changing down to first or second to pick up speed, They had enough power to build up speed and use the momentum, I had to start the run-up in low range to prevent the engine from stalling and rev it high .. This was exactly my experience driving with (and briefly driving) a Defender in Libya (see p.78). Lovely springs though... But when it comes to axle articulation, then all modern Landies win. So on the hard piste from Hirhafok to Assekrem a Disco is best. (Just thought I’d mention that in case you-know-who gets the wrong idea.) I thought you'd gone converted, Terry ;-). But be fair now, we all made it there and back at a steady crawl (this year I went round the easy way and let the bikes do it alone - in 2 hrs!). Only later did our bits start breaking, including yours! And from where I was looking that 80 articulated as well as the Discovery - though you certainly wouldnt think so to look at one. >Get one of these babies breathing fire, and your laughing! Matt, you've landed on the wrong planet - would you send grandpa out there with an engine like that. (Actually let's do it, I'll pay!) >people want always more and more. I dont think Roman is asking the world, He just wants an engine up to the job. Seeing as what he's done & spent on his car - and a Discovery is a nice comfy machine - I'd slap a V8 in it and maybe LPG for the drive down and live with the fittings. All that Tojo poke without the stigma ;-) And Roman, you also save $19.99 on the new www.polandcruiser url I've had my say, flame away! Him PS, never heard of cracked heads on TLC 60s, but I'm not an expert. |
Hi Roman
'Give-Power-to-the-Disco'. A lot has been said on this obviously emotive subject. Quotes from Goethe? Wow! You state: "In this example, the perceived lack of engine power may point to weak ego, lacking self-esteem and the effect of aging on male virility...." Ego? Self esteem? Male virility? I love it - join the club...! Perhaps you should fit the ultimate engine in your Disco - a 4 litre Vee-12 Lamborghini. I spent a year rebuilding mine - my wife thought I had a young Italian mistress shacked up in my garage! I resolved the accusation later, at 160mph on the local bypass. Did I say 'wow'... Bon chance ------------------ Kitmax - Traveller Desert Pictures at http://www.kitmax.com/kitmax/kit03ph...velgallery.htm homepage http://www.kitmax.com |
For what its worth, these are my thoughts:
Power - TLC best, Disco not so good (OK with V8, front axle cannot support heavy engines), 110 same as Disco. Comfort - TLC good, Disco good, 110 poor. Axle Articulation - TLC not so good, Disco good, 110 best. Reliability/Quality - TLC best, Disco not so good, 110 same as Disco. Spares/Support/Info in UK - TLC poor, Disco good, 110 best. Spares/Support/Info in Area - TLC good, Disco non existent, 110 poor (but 109 excellent). Owners’ Passion - TLC high, Disco high, 110 right off the scale. Owners’ Frustration with Manufacturer - TLC very low, Disco medium, 110 same as Disco. If I were starting from scratch I would go for a TLC. But I’m not, so I’ll stick with my Disco. I don’t think that the Mark II Disco is a vehicle to take into the Sahara. Its very heavy and crammed with electronics (you can’t fit bigger tyres without reprogramming the ECU). Unfortunately Toyota seems to be going in the same direction. The latest TLCs have turned into on-road behemoths. I wonder what we’ll be driving in ten years time? |
Yo,
Consider the facts. Look at the power- and torque-figures of the different engines if you need objective information. The 300tdi is a turbo-engine with the normal "turbo-disadvantages" such as turbolag under 1600rpm and powerloss at high revvs. The tdi should be driven on its "torque" around 2000rpm. [ Quote:
What kind and specification of engine-oil do you use? Desert-conditions are very demanding on the quality of your engine-oil. Turbos work internally at very high speeds and lack of lubricant or bad quality is lethal. Karel. [/B][/QUOTE] |
Hi all,
Seems I have caused quite a bit of stir with my innocent remarks. Terry's list sums the issues quite accurately. I agree passion is part of the equation, but what can stir greater passion than a dead vehicle in the middle of nowhere, regardless of its make. As I still have no idea how green is the grass on the other side, so undaunted here I go again: > For what it's worth, what are your thoughts on replacing your 300 Tdi with a Rover 3.5l V8? Yes..., but... I am aware that on soft sand a 300Tdi can burn over 21L/100km, which is not wide off the mark compared to V8 figures. On the other hand, the LPG installation is great in Europe and where gas is available, but a liability where it's not (it takes extra space and is dead weight when not in use). How does it compare with the fuel consumption for a Toyota 4.2L diesel engine? > Axle Articulation - TLC not so good, Disco good, 110 best. I can imagine TLC articulation can be improved by lifting it by 2-3 in. and fitting long travel shocks and springs, can it? Besides, isn't articulation an element of the rock crawling folklore? Load carrying capacity and the ability to take a few hard knocks seem to be more important for overlanding that axle twisting. Thirdly, diff locks can compensate for less than perfect articulation. > Perhaps you should fit the ultimate engine in your Disco - a 4 litre Vee-12 Lamborghini. *** and *** >A very powerful engine is the 6,2 or 6,5 V8 diesel (or turbo diesel) from GMC. with loads of torque. Should fit in. > ...and will surely eat the standard transmission alive... Now, these guys in Iceland who run heavily lifted landrovers with 36in tyres and supercharged engines seem to know how to keep the drive train from harm. What's the trick? > What kind and specification of engine-oil do you use? Desert-conditions are very demanding on the quality of your engine-oil. Turbos work internally at very high speeds and lack of lubricant or bad quality is lethal. I use Mobil One. I've heard that Millers XFD is equally good. Any experience with this brand? > And Roman, you also save $19.99 on the new www.polandcruiser.www url That would be the least financial setback if I decide to trade places (grin...) Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
Hi Roman
>How does it compare with the fuel consumption for a Toyota 4.2L diesel engine? Dont know about 4.2 but I'm told the 61 (4L) was the most economical 6-cyl diesel TLC. I get 24 mpg on the motorway at 70mph, 18-21 on the piste - the best I got was 30 at a steady 80-100kph. This is all with desert loads and crap on the roof. Absolute worst has never gone below 15 in the dunes - the same that Tom Sheppard told me he got churning in dep sand to Uweinat in a LR90 - he was shocked and ran out... I'm told an TLC80 (4.2) is a more juicy than the 60s, but of course it's a whole lot nicer to drive. Interstingly I did Route L2 with an auto Amazon 100-series tank once and we both used the same fuel over 600km (19mpg). Could a modern auto be more/as efficient? - I think so. Surprisingly, these figures were identical to Tdis I've travelled with on the odd occasion I've made comparisions - I always assumed they're more economical. >Load carrying capacity and the ability to take a few hard knocks seem to be more important for overlanding that axle twisting. True in the Sahara. The Hirhafok piste in the video is an aberation in the desert - as bad as it gets for axles - and the standard-sprung TLC80 managed it without a scrape, much to my surprise. IMHO for load carrying stability you dont want to raise the car any more than necessary, just put in HD rear coils. CS |
You can improve any vehicle’s fuel performance by 12-15% by fitting a Powerplus Fuel Unit. You also get more power. It really does work because I was the driver on the two day test that was performed on a TD5 110 under LRO supervision. The calibration equipment measured every 5cc of fuel used on ten 50 mile circuits and it was amazing how fast fuel consumption went up above 50mph. If you want a copy of the report try contacting them at: powerpluscorp@yahoo.com.
As well as fitting HD rear coils, you can also fit Air Lifters in them. This enables you to stiffen the rear suspension when you’re tanked up with fuel and water, and progressively ease off as you use it up. All Makes sell them in the UK. |
How does this power thing do it Terry, in a nutshell?
Chris |
It fits in the fuel line and does several things, including leaching minerals into the fuel (diesel or petrol) and polarizing the fuel molecules. This means that the fuel ignites more efficiently so you actually explode more of the fuel that has been injected into the cylinder thereby gaining more power and less waste.
As I understand things, the original version was designed to enable the Spitfires that were sent to Russia during WWII to fly on the very low quality Russian petrol of the era. I had one fitted to our 200TDi Disco simply to cope with dirty fuel, and was surprised by the performance improvement. Last year I helped with the tests on the TD5 110, so the first mod made to our new "yellow peril" 300TDi Disco was to fit said device. It takes a couple of thousand miles before it fully beds in. However you can take a crude measurement by performing an MoT Smoke Test immediately before and immediately after. Smoke = unburned fuel. I know it sounds too good to be true - more power, lower fuel consumption, copes with dirty fuel, pays for itself within 12 months. It just is. |
Terry,
Power Plus Fuel Enigne Systeem (or whatever). I normally don't believe in fairytales : but if you say it works and has been objectively tested then we have to believe you, I guess. Does it work on the older (LR)dieselengines as well? Any comment. Quanta costa? Karel |
Yep,
More powerful engines in your Disco: if you have the cash and time: fit in the gearbox from a 4.6HSE Range Rover. Driven with a little bit of respect, this will keep up with even the 6.5 V8 turbodiesel. BTW, why not buying a Hummer!!! Shouldn't always be Landies (still the best) or Toyos. I don't think lockers (ARB or whatever) are a good idea in sand!! Use thicker engine-oil : 20W50 or even thicker in hot conditions. No experience with Millers XFD. Karel. |
Terry, you may have heard these questions before, but I can't resist expressing my doubt about another instant cure to all the mankind's problems:
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------------------ Roman (UK) www.polandrover.com |
I’m not a chemist. Presumably over the first couple of thousand miles the entire fuel system gets impregnated with the magic minerals. Perhaps the cylinder head is affected - I don’t know.
The measurements on the TD5 showed two things:- (1) You cannot measure fuel performance yourself. I had to drive the same 52 mile circuit five times to get an average reading. I was trying really hard to drive at the same speeds and in the same gears around the circuit, and was being timed with a stop watch over each section. Despite this there was up to a 10% difference in fuel consumption on different runs. (2) After the PowerPlus unit had been switched on, the average for the five runs after, compared to the average for the five runs before, showed a significant drop in fuel usage. Laurie Wright, the LRO observer, commented that I was driving more aggressively on day two (PowerPlus switched on). I was a bit miffed at this remark because I didn’t think I was. I realized afterwards that what Laurie had detected was the improvement in the power being delivered. I wasn’t giving it more welly, the engine was delivering more welly. Anyway, you’ll have to believe me about the power increase. But I suggest you ask PowerPlus to send you a copy of the report and read the facts about the fuel usage. |
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