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Missing tourists in Algeria - Latest
Sorry to open a new thread when there's alreadu half a dozen. I thought this latest news deserved being prominent.
Cheers. MD. Sahara tunnels could solve mystery of missing tourists -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Tony Paterson in Berlin 08 April 2003 Desert nomads were reported yesterday to have discovered an abandoned vehicle and a network of tunnels in a remote region of southern Algeria thought likely to provide clues about the mysterious disappearance of 29 western tourists in the Sahara over the past seven weeks. Germany's ARD television channel said the off-road vehicle was found in a mountainous district north of the Algerian town of Tamanrasset at the weekend by a camel train of nomads passing through the region. The vehicle was left parked outside the entrance to a complex system of underground caves linked by tunnels. The nomads said they suspected the caves "were inhabited", although they had not entered the system to find out. The nomads' find appeared to be the first clue so far in an increasingly desperate search for the missing tourists, whose number increased to 29 last week after Austria announced that eight of its citizens had disappeared in the region. Sixteen Germans, four Swiss and a Dutchman have gone missing in the Algerian Sahara since the beginning of March. On Sunday, a team of five investigators from Germany's Federal Criminal Bureau were dispatched to Algiers to join Algerian and other German police in the hunt for the missing tourists. All 29 were in three groups that were exploring the region independently in off-road vehicles. The last evidence of their whereabouts is a photograph taken by a friend of the missing tourists that shows six of the explorers with a car and three motorcycles while taking a break on a pass in the Algerian mountains on 21 February. Two days later, the first group disappeared. German and Algerian investigators suspect the tourists may have been taken hostage by a militant Islamist group, known as the Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC), which has links to al-Qa'ida. The GSPC is fighting the Algerian authorities and has been active in the central Sahara for years. However, no ransom demand has so far been made. "We cannot rule out any possibility; there have been no demands," said a German Federal Criminal Bureau spokesman. He said the search had been widened to include the use of helicopters equipped with heat-seeking cameras. German tour operators had recently insisted that Algeria's southern Sahara rated as a relatively problem-free area. However, Germany's Sahara Club, which organises trips to the region, strongly criticised the German Foreign Ministry yesterday for failing to do enough to warn tourists of the dangers. "The warnings have been inadequate. The Foreign Ministry and the Algerian authorities are overstretched. They cannot be counted on to help," it said in a statement. The club claimed it had warned the German authorities about the dangers of the region some three weeks ago but had been ignored. It said it suspected the tourists had been captured by a "well-organised group" that had extensive contacts beyond Algeria's borders. |
I have phoned today to a journalist of the french newspaper "Le monde" about the "network of tunnels dicovered " near Illizi . He said to me this information was not true .
Who said the truth ? |
I also heard on the weekend that this info - exciting tho it sounds for newspapers - is not so significant. It has been 4 days now after all.
CS |
Today I heard on german radio that a german team of investigators including guys of the anti-terror brigade GSG-9 were sent to Algeria to support the searching.
Lets hope for all the best ! Gijs. |
Story made it to BBC radio4's news this morning. The BBC website for the "Today" programme
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/ Hasnt got a copy but there may be something in the 'News'pages Interview with an Austrian spokesman.British press seem obsessed with 'Terrorists' living in tunnels,The guest interviewee put them right about their translation problem. Sean |
Unfortunatly a piece has just appeared in the NY Times suggesting they all got lost because of no GPS (in the words of a Tam tour operator...)
In case anyone is in any doubt (and as some of you will know) this is bollocks. Chris S |
If you had no GPS, you wouldn't have got that far anyway as far as I can tell. Just as you said Chris - BS.
------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East Off-Roader http://www.mid-east-off-road.com |
Actually Jon I can tell you that GPS is not essential along A5 where the first 3 groups went missing, (tho it helps at a couple of places). Wee first did it in 89 just working it out.
Also we did the far side of Tifernine and I did Afara in December (where the other 3 are thought to have disappeared) also without GPS (although I logged it for the next book of course. (I was busy chipping out rock pictures for a Sotheby's auction at the time ;-) It looks like the Alg travel agencies are winning the protaganda war - but not for long! CS |
is it possible that they got lost becouse of a gps error introduced by the americans because of the iraque war?
but even so, they wouldn't disapear in thin air... renato |
Perhaps I didn't put it very well Chris. Whilst you can navigate almost anywhere without GPS, it certainly helps and most experienced desert travellers (or at least the ones I know here in the Emirates, Oman and Saudi Arabia) wouldn't consider leaving on a major expedition without using it.
There's been a couple of places on the net where I've read people talking about GPS selective availability. Yes we all know that the US DoD can switch that on if they want, but our experiences here (and we're a lot nearer to Iraq than most of you (except perhaps A.B.) all through the war on Iraq has been that GPS signal has been perfectly as normal. I doubt that GPS selective availability caused them to get lost and thus their disappearance. Let's pray that these individuals are all found alive and well. It's all really tragic. ------------------ Jon Harbour Middle East Off-Roader http://www.mid-east-off-road.com |
Can a GPS error be a local thing? I remember reading posts from folks in Iran stating that GPS was still working fine, even with the war in Irak.
So I think that option is ruled out. The fact that the NY times writes an article that is complete bullocks doesn't suprise me. Wonder why they, at a moment when it is clear to everyone that they can't be lost and having a pick nick somewhere in the dessert, are writing this? Even on US-based internet news sites this option has not been mentioned as far as I have read. I do believe that there is a well organised group behind this whole thing. Just hope they don't move again or start a second operation. Also, how many locals over there can ride a motobike in the desert or on pistes? NOt that much I guess. So most likely they need some decent pickup's or even a lorry to move those to the place were they are hiding these. I can't imagin that you can hide all these vehicules that easely unless in caves or very narrow gorges. And shouldn't all this moving leave some traces behind? Just some questions that keep boggling my mind. ------------------ http://users.pandora.be/pieter.maes2/ |
the terrorists/bandits don't need to ride the bikes: its easy to get the owners to cooperate when you give them little fuel and water so there's no way out.
the good thing that I read into the reported sighting of 7 bikes, the van and some cars moving together is that, most likely, the riders were riding their own bikes and that means that, although captive, they were still alive and well. [This message has been edited by RichLees (edited 10 April 2003).] [This message has been edited by RichLees (edited 11 April 2003).] |
Rich, who told you the vehicles have been seen at night ? Where ? Which date ? Which hour ?
Please mail this to me, no public statement here. Tx, Marina_b_m@yahoo.com |
Looks like it's not over yet - another car has been reported missing - an Austrian L300 van with two people bringing the total up to 31 people, 18 vehicles and now 7 groups (although it is thought the Mitsubishi may be have been travelling with group 6).
See Sahara.../news Chris S [This message has been edited by Chris Scott (edited 12 April 2003).] |
There's an article in today's Telegraph Travel supplement. Doesn't really say much we don't already know. I've scanned it here in case anyone's interested:
http://ichapp.users.btopenworld.com/...el_12Apr03.tif [This message has been edited by IanC (edited 12 April 2003).] |
Is there a coordinated effort to assist this search? I worked closely with a few oil and gas exploration folks that have air photos and satellite imagery for most of this area.
If funds were available, IKONOS, Quickbird, or SPOT satellites could be tasked to image this area. Sometimes you get lucky and the imagery was taken near the time forensic data is required. The trucks and trails can be easily determined from this data and the positional accuracy is similar to GPS in this area, about 4-5m spatial resolution. [This message has been edited by 3ID (edited 12 April 2003).] |
Quote:
http://www.algeria-interface.com/new...4.heny7jvy.xml Rgds, Roman (UK) |
As whoever is carrying out the abductions seems to target virtually everyone passing through, why could they not set up some sort of "sting", with Special Forces or similar equipped with tracking beacons posing as hapless european tourists? Or would this be considered too dangerous for anyone to undertake? I would have thought the abductors are leaving themselves extremely vulnerable to being rumbled, just beacuse they keep repeating their actions.
Let's hope so. |
ÊActually Roman, dont want to be pedandic but I think interface have done their sums wrong.
Quote: "Fifteen Germans, four Swiss, a Dutchman and a Swede, have also disappeared deep in the Algerian Sahara this year. Ê ÊTwo Austrian climbers were reported missing on Friday, bringing the total number of missing Austrians to 10 and foreigners to 33" Adds up to 31 - 8 Austrians + 2 new. I think they may have counted the L300 guys twice - they were the climbers (see poster) And there is still this talk of 'emir' Moktar Belmoktar and the SP...whatever he has joined - but was he not killed in a raid last year east of Timimoun? I'm sure I reported it on Sahara news. Chris An Ian, I believe the abductions happened in a short space of time - around 3 weeks late Feb to mid-March - it s just that people who have been out of touch for weeks - as one can be out there (like these climbers) - are not turning up for their Tunis ferries and so the alarm is raised - possibly weeks after they disappeared. I dont think any new abductions have taken place for nearly a month.as they would be well aware the heat was on. CS [This message has been edited by Chris Scott (edited 13 April 2003).] |
Does anyone have any further news (as opposed to speculation). What is the number of vehicles / bikes now reported missing. What are the number of persons reported missing? Are any non Europeans reported missing in the area? Are these reported missings localised to the Eastern routes of Algeria. Are the routes through Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad & Sudan still trouble free?
Did the overlanders carry EPIRB or Sat Phone? If a Sat phone, GPS is still on, in a passive mode, do they not emmit a signal even though not being actively used? Regards and thoughts to all families and friends of those currently missing. |
David,
You're expecting too much - it's all hazy, speculative and obscure - particularly when political interest and careers are involved. Read this and ponder: <<Tourism Minister Rhissa Ag Boula said Monday that none of the missing had crossed the border. "You know, the Algerian Sahara is huge. On our side (of the border), there are no missing tourists. If there were any, it's impossible that I wouldn't know about it," Ag Boula said. >> Quoetd from http://www.algeria-interface.com/new...8.fwocsa3d.xml Rgds, Roman (UK) |
Link:
http://www.hoggar.com/lost/index.html click on groupe 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 to have more details and photos There is a poster of Groupes 1 to 6 http://www.sahara-info.ch/forum3/sahara/posts/13132.htm Groupe 7 is not yet on the poster |
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I simply cannot believe "the desert is like a sea, follow its rules, otherwise it will swallow you up". These expedtions appear to be are a mix of seasoned and well prepared groups of "several" individuals. Even assuming the leader of a group makes a wrong decision of their GPS reading and bearing, there should be at leat 2 others in the group cross checking.
The myth that a desert can "swallow" a group of individuals is simply ludicrous in today's world of GPS, cartography and excellent authors of vast experience. Particularly when you consider that if they were lossed, one or other would surely have some contact to the outside world, through Sat phone or EPIRB. My concern here is the proximity which the groups all went to the Libyian border. With the hightened tensions in the Western & Islamic world over the recent Iraq conflict, one can only assume the horrfic thought that they are at the hand of a "religoulsy motivated" group. I know these individuals are not British, but where is our national reporting and intervention by our goverment. 33 persons is more then the British have lossed in the name of "freeing a poplution" from a dictator. Why is it that persons who seek the liberty and realisation of what life has to offer in terms of travelling the world are simply, in western terms, "swallowed up by insignificance". The reason I am so passionate is that myself, my wife and another overland Landy were due to be in this area at this time. Thankfully for us our expeditions were delayed. But I shiver at the thought that had we been there, so little action would have been taken. Surely, there is something we can do to get more action and searches underway. Is there not an organisation that can be employed to undertake independent, impartial searches? Whatever the cost, are there not enough of us here on-line to contribute to such a cause with the hope that we can at least offer a hope to these 31 or 33 "people" be they lossed, kinapped or immobilised? It is simply terrible to sit here and feel so useless. I for one would willing give something to help, even be it be for a selfish reason that I hope others would do the same should the same fate befall us on our expedition. I fear that if we do not this epsisode shall tarnish others that which other shall dream of seeking in years to come. We cannot stop the world of politics and religion, but surely we can help to safeguard our fellow travllers in their hour of need? Regards as always David |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Scott:
[B]Posters for all 7 groups are on www.sahara-overland.com/news/ and prob the other 2 webs by now. Chris, Thanks for your update. I ran my piece before fully reading yours. Sorry. Can you provide me the details of where and how we can contibute something toward the search activities. I will endeavour to spread the word an tray an gain some momentum, but I fear, alas many will simply not understand. Anyhow, whatever we can do we shall endavour to contribute. This is simply to large to ignore. Best Regards David |
All
Sorry I miss posted my email address under my account this should read david_horner1968@hotmail.com Apologies for using this space to notify. BR David |
Hi David, you can contribute at the top of my Sahara news page using paypal:
http://www.sahara-overland.com/news/ but paypal does not suit everyone so you can send a cheque to me at: Chris Scott PO BOX 26945 London SE21 8WR and I'll pay it in I just sent off over £800 to the central fund in Switz and I hear there was a link in yesterdays IoS and on its web site so good for them and... Many thanks to all contributors Chris S ------------------ Author of Sahara Overland and the Adventure Motorcycling Handbook, among other things http://www.sahara-overland.com |
News from Yves:
the kidnapping is "de facto" officially confirmed now. So I expect the diplomatic sources to give just as much info to the public to calm down the population and not to interfere with their measures taken or planned. So we need to be patient now. Bye, Yves |
I just learned of Marc Hediger's disappearance. I met Marc in Taipei years ago and we visited in Los Aneles when I worked there with Northwest Airlines. I'd like to make contact with Marc's family...Gabriela and Luc...
Is there a site for donations in USD to the search effort? Tom Rockne President Passageways Travel tom.rockne@pways.com |
Check out the Swiss site for Marc contacts (his is group 1 or 2) and there is a paypal donation account for international donations.
Both links at: www.sahara-overland.com/news CS |
Roman--- the quote you gave was from the Nigerien mister of Tourism, Rhissa ag Boula. The government of Niger has been far more open and direct about dealing with banditry and safety issues in Niger, especially northern and easten Niger. Rhissa ag Boula is from northern Niger and has lots and lots of contacts in the area, as he was the second in command of the Tuareg rebellion (after Mano Dyak). I think Niger will make every effort to assure safety and security of their tourists, as they well understand the impact of terrorism on their already weakened tourism industry. Algeria has a different agenda. I wouldn't expect anything honest from their representatives.
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"has been far more open and direct about dealing with banditry and safety issues in Niger"
Only because he has to Kevin - op till recently it has been far more dangerous than Algeria. Tourists and even local agents have been hit every season for tbe last 3 years or more in Niger - and some have got shot first - Last year we were told it was "Malians or Algerians". Although tourism is a drop in the ocean - one Algerian agenda is to suppress terrorism surely. Ch |
To all:
I had a response to my post here from a German TV station and thought I would pass on the inquiry and my response. The media coverage will greatly assist the search efforts. Regards, 3ID ***************: Thank you for your note. My firm, often performs this type of work. For more details about us please see our web-site at www.geointel.com I have worked on several missing person and homicide investigations using remote sensing data. In my post, I refer to commercial satellite imagery from www.spaceimaging.com and www.digitalglobe.com These groups offer very high resolution digital imagery capable of sub-meter resolution. The data is very good for feature discrimination because of a broad dynamic range, the panchromatic data provides 2048 shades of grey. In this manner, the high contrast allows the user to see objects as small as the lines of a tennis court, about three inches. Both of these satellites orbit the earth in a similar manner and cross the area of interest about 10:30 AM. Typically, you can search the archives and inquire if a satellite has recently passed over and captured data during the time-frame you require. If no data is available, the satellite can be tasked to image exactly where you are interested. The cost is reasonable, $18.00/square kilometer with a smnall minimum purchase area requirement. In addition, I worked with an oil and gas exploration group that has some field personnel in Algeria and contracted with us to provide some orthorectification of air photos. The photos came from a group in Spain. The data is several years old now and may not be of to much assistance. We are experienced with desert pavement classification services using a very high-end German software product. Please visit www.ecognition.com for more information about image processing. Let me know if I can be of assistance. The tools available can greatly assist your efforts. Regards, ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From: <******************> To: <*****************> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 4:14 AM Subject: German Television ARD > Hello, > I read your note in the internet forum Horizons unlimited. I'm journalist, > working for german television ARD and try to find out some news about the > missing travellers in Algerie. You wrote about a contact to a company and > fotos taken from satellites. I'm very interested in these pictures. Could > you tell me more about it or give me a contact to this company? Thank you > very much. > Best regards > > ***********redacted**** > > [This message has been edited by 3ID (edited 14 April 2003).] |
3ID - I work in the Remote Sensing industry in the UK, and I agree with you that there is enormous potential for using satellite imagery (particularly Pan and Pan-Sharpened XS) from QuickBird and Ikonos for clarifying the movements of the groups that are now missing.
It would be a very minor part of the Search and Rescue budget to procure the necessary imagery, since we know the dates the groups entered certain pistes / left town. Identifying vehicle type, and even motorcycles wouldn't be a huge challenge. Somebody close to the investigation (in Germany or Austria perhaps) should press the authorities into exploring this avenue. I will provisionally offer the services of the Remote Sensing Unit of UCL, although I'm not sure how much we could help (besides sharing the processing requirements for the imagery). I would obviously donate my professional services FOC to such an effort. I will mention it to the management tomorrow. [This message has been edited by POB/London (edited 14 April 2003).] |
Have a look at this image of Saddam International Airport in Baghdad:
http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/...addam_aprt.jpg ...and bear in m ind that this is a media-friendly JPG. The full resoulution Pan (black and white) images are of much greater spatial resolution, and are therefore much more interpretable. Save the image and then zoom in. Considering this is the *degraded* version, you can see the detail. Now consider that with a professional image processing application you can manipulate the imagery to highlight certain items (such as vehicles). |
Kidnapping is definately now a probability with official sources saying contact has been made with the Dutch guy Arjen - with other sources having heard from the Austrians too
Fingers crossed for a positive outcome. Chris S www.sahara-overland.com/news/ |
Chris,
'definately now a probability' - thinking of going into politics??!! Good news though. Sam. |
hi,
I just read in a portuguese newspaper that a message from the missing peolpe was found in the desert. It said that they were alive! anyone can confirm this? lets hope the best! Renato |
I think the paper is jumping the gun as I dont hear it anywhere else.
I would have thought when it happens we will know about it on here - or places like it - in less than an hour But the latest is 10 nomads are also missing out of Illizi over the weekend (although one has to ask how can you tell with a nomad? ;-) Ch |
strange...
the newspaper is a national one... I will find who is reponsible for that information. renato |
I saw something similar on CNN yesterday morning (US television edition). It was just a few words at the bottom of the screen and said something to the effect that the phrase "We are alive" was found scrawled on a rock or something in Algeria. The report linked this discovery to the missing travellers.
I tried searching CNN's website, but couldn't find anything further about it. - Witt |
hello Witt - you SAW it?
You mean somebody was FILMING the message? Thanks for more infos when you can find it again! Ursula |
Sorry if I was unclear. "CNN headline news" in the US has a 'ticker' at the bottom of the screen that continuously displays short (ten words) news bites, in text only. The news bite I saw mentioned that such a message had been found written somewhere in the desert. There was no video accompanying the report.
- Witt |
The Austrian Government was reported by the BBC yesterday as saying a message had been found in the desert saying the tourists were "still alive". A link to the latest report on the BBC is below, again mentioning the Austrian Government statement.
Its also contains fairly negative reports from Algierian guides about it being the tourists own fault for not using guides but I'm guessing thats partially because they see a good business interest in getting everybody to start taking guides with them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2953357.stm |
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Some more explicit news from news24.co.za
key news = word on negotations and some possible reasons for the groups being separated..... Vienna - Algerian authorities have located 11 of 31 tourists missing in the Sahara desert and have opened talks with the kidnappers, reports the Austrian weekly, Profil. "Bedouins are said to have seen the kidnappers and 11 hostages striking camp," Profil reports from Algeria. "Algerian authorities have not used the word hostage-takers to decribe the kidnappers, in order to be able to open negotiations," says Profil, adding that talks had already started. Fifteen Germans, 10 Austrians, four Swiss, a Dutchman and a Swede are missing in an area of the Sahara frequented by smugglers, drug-runners and a militant group linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network. Some have not been heard of since February. Profil said the talks were being handled at senior level because of the international attention now focused on Algeria. It said the German hostages were being held separately - possibly an indication that Germany was the target of the attack, which could aim at freeing four Algerian extremists jailed there. The missing tourists had been travelling in six separate groups without guides. They vanished in southern Algeria's vast desert. On Monday, the Austrian diplomat in charge of finding his missing nationals said they had not necessarily been kidnapped, while the Dutch foreign ministry confirmed that the missing Dutchman had been taken hostage. |
To all:
I was notified this morning that German TV canceled the planned story regarding missing tourists in Algeria. The story was bumped with no plans to do another. The inattention to this story is amazing. Cheers, Mitch |
hello, I'm Igor, dutch, and of course have heard and read all about this terrible disappearings, ie kidnappings. The only positive news I guess is that there would be these negotiations, and it looks that the tourists are still alive.
I hardly dare to say it, but I'm in Tunis with my landcruiser HJ61, and planned to go thru algeria down to niger, than heading for the eastcoast, so chad, sudan and ethiopia. AS i heard about algeria i tried to change plans, and I'm trying to get a visa for libya now. being on my own and not having a required invitation from a libyian travel agency (if someone knows how to get one...) I find myserlf in a difficult dilemma-wait forever for a libyian visa, or go thru algeria...I have a visa, which expires soon so I have to decide quickly. I thought, if I would only go at the main route, like this: tunis-nefta- el-oued - ghardaia- el golea-in salah- arak-tamanrasset-(niger) arlit-agadez....I would only drive at daylight ofcourse and stop at every big town (about each 500/600 km), shouldn't it be ok then? I esp. ask it to you chris, as experienced traveller.. it's not that i like risks, but i saved long for this, gave up my job, and apt. to do all this. at the end of june afriend is flying over to ethiopia, so if i reach that.. please some reactions to this.. thank you, Igor Dudevszky Quote:
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That's a tricky one!
You have my sympathies (although not as much as the "hostages" and their families). I was aiming to be there early March, and was fortunate enough to be "running late", thereby being alerted to the trouble before leaving - otherwise I might have been there now. I really don't know what the risks are now (don't know if anyone does). It seems that the abductions occured over only 3 weeks or so, so logically with all the searching going on now I would have thought any kidnappers would be keeping a very low profile indeed. Having said all that, I've put my trip on hold till a few braver souls have been and come back. Best of luck whatever! |
Igor,
I'm thinking aloud, and in no way giving advice! Any advice should say: Don't go ! My view is, that the Niger-Chad-Sudan route carries far more risks than Algeria even under present circumstances. The main difference is that the few who dared to take on the challenge there were accepting and prepared for the risk, whereas south Algeria was perceived to be completely safe before, so no precautions were needed. I'd say your analysis is correct, you can probably (but by no means certainly!) pull it off by sticking to main roads and joining up with other vehicles in the more remote stretches. On the other hand, the recent events have substantially increased the risk not only in Algeria, but in the whole of the lawless central region of the Sahara. Your real problems start when you leave the roads and hit the pistes to go further south. Certainly I would not consider the route down from Libya to Chad presently. Also northern Niger was never a quiet place even in the good times, and little good news came from those parts recently. I personally would have not considered doing a solo trip along your planned course even before the recent events. I don't think the Algeria situation adds much to this, only broadens the risk zone. Andras www.fjexpeditions.com [This message has been edited by andrasz (edited 18 April 2003).] |
No one could give the right advice here.
Libya is not safer than Algeria - the current story is likely to draw attention of some persons to "taking hostages in order to achieve a goal". You will not know whether people are repeating this. One way to be a little "safer" is to travel with local guides - since they know where to set a foot and where better not to even think of it. But: at least two vehicles were said lost on plain road between Illizi and Djanet. And: in the UK, we saw a process against terrorists of the same kind than in Germany. Ending with some persons in prison. I'd not wonder that UK people get in trouble as of now. So, no real advice here - just one rational one: get back. Best wishes, Marina |
Igor,
It's not an easy choice you're faced with and I'm happy not to be in your position. I have travelled your route over the last 5 months, i.e. Algeria, Niger, Chad, Sudan, Ethiopia and on to Capetown where I am now. Andrasz is perhaps right that northern Niger, Chad and Sudan are not very safe places to travel but then you had already made that decision before you left. Also, I do not know of people who have gone missing on this route over the last years. I have made it safely across this route, but was held up at the Chad/Sudan border for a night because of a robbery 20 minutes earlier! Your major concern is Algeria and sticking to the main road is I guess your most viable option. Other than getting a local guide, I would try to arrange a police escort. In my experience the police were very friendly and helpful last November and I guess they are not too keen on losing even more tourists. I do not know if the convoy on the main route is still operating but it would be another option. The downside of approaching the police is that they may send you back altogether. In that case it's perhaps best not to push your luck any further and just get back on the ferry and go for the western route. Getting a good guide across Algeria is a tricky business and definitely going to eat a big hole in your budget. Also, how will a guide protect you from being hijacked? Please note that I am not advising you to go into Algeria at the moment, I am merely trying to provide some ideas. I would under NO circumstance go into Algeria alone. Best of luck to you, Camiel www.amsterdam2capetown.com [This message has been edited by camiel (edited 19 April 2003).] |
I would say taking the tar roads through Algeria is an option that Igor, you prepared to take a chance on as I presume you got to Tunis after this all started and is aware of the consequences. After all, it is not like all Algeria is making war on tourists, just a group of well organised individuals who, as was said, made their hits over 2-3 weeks and now have enough on their plate.
But first I would check with the Alg embassy in Tunis and ask if you would even be allowed in. And although the weather is not getting any better, I would wait in Tunisia as long as you can until some positive news comes out of the abductions. Even then Alg may not want the responsibility of any more tourists crossing their country, even on the highway - or they may escort you all the way. Certainly, you will attract a lot of welcome attention from the police etc, and it is possible once you get to El Golea you will become part of the convoy that goes down the TSH to In Ecker. As far as I understand, it is not certain one group was abducted off the Illizi-Djanet highway - that is just the last place they were possibly seen. I know several people who have crossed to Sudan by themselves recently on bike and in cars - it has its drawbacks - especially when you in towns which until recently I would regard as less safe than most of the open desert. But being in groups did not stop the recent abductions. As Andras said though, in the Niger towns of Arlit and Agadez as well as the Chad crossing and the west of Sudan, travellers should be alert to robberies, banditry etc. All in all it's going to be a tense trip and so one has to wonder is it worth it? Fortunatly this event has happened at the end of the season which gives us the whole of the summer to rebuild our confidence in travelling on the piste Algeria. That however will take some doing. Fingers crossed for a positive outcome to the abductions. Chris S |
I saw a story from Debka today tying the missing tourists to Al Qaeda. For more information see the following link
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=32159 |
Another story that claims the hostages are being held as human shields.
http://strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguid...et=ALGERIA.HTM This blog has some posts in French. |
No passage through Algeria at the moment!
Acccoding to several independent sources, we got the information that it is not possible to cross Algeria north-south: Route Ouargla-El Golea-In Salah closed for tourists No way beyond Hassi Bel Guebbour In the east, probably a possibility to reach DebDeb, but definitely not In Amenas. My impression: Something is exploding in that country, get out as long as you can. Peter [This message has been edited by PeterM (edited 25 April 2003).] |
Update from http://www.news24.com/News24/World/N...352663,00.html
A vehicle was found one week ago with its caravan superstructure burned out northwest of the town of Illizi. It is believed to belong to the couple from Augsburg. The article talks of a siege of 300 Islamists near Tebessa in eastern Algeria which may be connected with the 31. |
This link to the vehicle discovery contains some new information regarding the missing tourists.
http://cbsnewyork.com/international/...rces_news_html |
A few more details (but much the same story) in the UK Guardian...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...945305,00.html new details: 1. confirmation of contact suggested by the Algerian spokeperson who indicates that the 31 have plenty of water but diminishing food 2. suggestion that the Algerians will let the insurgents go free if the 31 are released 3. talk of two of Emir Ammari's men (the named leader of the insurgents) had recently been involved in a firefight with Algerian troops near the location of the Iveco van. 4. usual stuff about GPS vs local guides. With local guides to hand your truck doesn't get buried under sand while the occupants and the truck battery are spirited away, of course. |
Richard,
Obviously, you make a strong case about the relationship between local guides and car batteries. On the other hand, a French friend of mine who runs Raids 4x4 Globe-Trotter returned from that area shortly after the first abductions. When I discussed the situation with him, he was quite positive about local guides making a big difference to the safety of desert travel. I can imagine if something is brewing in a hotspot such as Algeria, these guys are usually quick to spot it and can often save you from trouble. You can't sniff out such news just by talking to people in the market place and as a stranger will always be treated with a degree of suspicion. Rgds, Roman (UK) |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roman:
[B]Richard, local guides making a big difference to the safety of desert travel..... Point well taken and you may well be right, although local guides haven't helped in the routine robberies in Niger and there haven't been similar situations in recent years in Algeria with which to test whether local guides would have helped the fate of the 31. I suspect that the point being made about local guides by the tourist agencies has more to do with a marketing opportunity on their part than anything else. As such, my feeling is that the moment they chose to make this point was ill-judged on their part. The priority is to sort out a mess that clearly hasn't come about through someone using GPS or holding a map upside-down or, incredibly, a sand storm that seems to have gone on for 2 months! Such comments in the media just derail other well intentioned efforts and have now irritated me enough to write the earlier comments! |
A good guide can be valuable and make travel very interesting if you share a language and can get them to talk, but separating them from bogus dudes looking for a lift is the problem, as many of us have found across the Sahara from the Beach piste to the Gilf. This is why many independent travellers choose to rely on their own common sense and navigational resources for most of their tours. And let us not forget that a guide is not needed nor expected along Route A5 or on just about any piste in Algeria, despite the apparent 'dismay' of local authorities that the groups went unguided. The only place a guide is expected is in the eastern Tassili Park.
I know other Saharan agencies who have experimented and given up (or persevered despite unreliability) with local guides. Most know their own 'tramlines' very well but take them off them and they freak out. I heard of it recently on the Djado plateau and saw it in the Gilf. It is very true what you say Roman that as a traveller one can never read the full picture of what really goes on in these southern Algerian towns, but if the danger was locally known (it seems plausible) why was the route not closed? The on-and-off closure of A5's northern entrance at Quatre Chemins from last October does not really explain this. While in the reverse direction there are many points where A5 could have easily been blocked by a checkpoint just a short distance west of Illizi. The guys could have gone home for dinner every night On another note, I find it odd that now the missing are said to be "in the canyons and gullies" west of Illizi, it has taken so long to find them as this area has been searched over and over from the very start. Still, a positive outcome looks promising so who cares! Ch |
I find the remarks of the European press and the moderator of this forum inappropriate. In particular, CS's statement "Still, a positive outcome looks promising so who cares!" This is lunacy.
Islamic extremist kidnappers are a worldwide plague. Kidnappings in Iran, Lebanon, Algeria, and the Phillipines have almost always ended badly. In this case, the tourists failed to take basic precautions, like avoidance, and went into a well known war zone. Over 100,000 innocent people have died in Algeria since the civil war began. Like it or not, the moslem terrorists do not care that citizens of Germany, France, and Austria do not support the war on terror. To the islamists this is more evidence of the effete and inane Euro-poser attitude that has allowed them to conquer much of Europe without a fight. Simply put, travellers are not welcome in this area. The poor folks that are missing deserve a decent response from their governments, not ransom money! The US was blamed immediately for this problem because they supposedly degraded the GPS signals. What gall! This blood libel is very telling, anyone that understands this technology knows that this is bogus. The scapegoating among the Euro-press and others is shameless and only attempts to deflect critism from the travellers that went into this area knowingly. And more so, seeks to deflect criticsm from the EU government's weak response so far. Schroeder's government will never act with the authority (ie military force) needed to handle this situation. Compare this to the US response to the Phillipine hostage taking, the US mobilized over two thousand soldiers to find two kidnapped missionaries in the Phillipines. The Abu-Sayef leaders were killed and one of the missing was rescued. Life is not a road-trip. The pathetic disconnect of most of the posters here is very disturbing. The travellers here are preparing for holiday, a trip through the desert that they feel somehow entitled to perform without risk or sacrifice. Contrast this with the historic march to Baghdad performed by coalition forces. If the hostages' governments were on the right side of history, surely the victims would be a much higher priority and the rescue much more likely to end well, like that of Pfc. Jessica Lynch. (Since this will likely be deleted, I will post the text on US blogs for all to read.) |
I recall that your first post, 3ID, irritated a good number of people and this is either a wind up or off the deep end.
like me, you're entitled to your opinion, but wisdom stems from listening and reflecting rather than having an opinion for all occasions. political, personal and religious rants like yours don't have any place on this forum. you're clearly patriotic, but I believe you're letting America down by talking such hostile crap. I'll refrain from sharing my political views, but note that I don't agree with your anti-muslim sentiments: all extremists are bad news. |
Quote:
Rgds, Roman (UK) |
Quote:
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'Still, a positive outcome looks promising so who cares!'
I meant: who cares about my passing observation that it's taken them 2 months to find them just 100 + kms out of Illizi when one considers the good news that they are alive and will hopefully be released. Maybe it wasn't obvious. I feel that here on the forum the eventual wellbeing of the missing (some of who I met just before it happened) is more relevant than the motivations of the still-unknown kidnappers, Europoser reactions or even the fact that I'll have to put my grandmother back on eBay this winter (she's used to it). As for the rest of Tex's defensive, ignorant or confused ravings, wekk they were clearly gagging for an eruption but are irrelevant here. I thought I'd leave them up for a bit of sport as the forum is kind or quiet at the moment (Sam, don't get any ideas! ;-). One wonders why he bothers boiling over on this specilised Sahara travel forum when he clearly has no experience or interest in Saharan travel? Was it because German TV dumped him or is the Black Flag Cafe closed for fumigation? I've come across this mushy-brained hostility towards independent Sahara travellers on other forums (not to mention UNATA's self-serving outburts). In the overall scheme of things what are they getting so worked up about what we do in our holidays or even for a living? Is it envy? These abductions raise several interesting questions about the motivation for Sahara travel and the ethics of adventure touring. But if there's enough interest I may include the Historic March on Baghdad as a new route in the next edition - with GPS waypoints of course! Ch |
First - the average Sahara traveller is much better prepared than a tourist foying to Tamanrasset, doing his camel ride and flying back.
Second - there are areas in Algeria we are avoiding for several years due to security reasons. Third - now the unthinkable happened, and to explain afterwards how it could have been avoided is similar to explanations how 9/11 could have been avoided. You are always wiser afterwards...nobody of us thought of Algeria as instable as Afghanistan, and today, I'm no longer sure. As there are no official statements, rumors are overwhelming, that's today's request for information, and it is frustrating for most of us that most we get is pure desinformation. But would anyone inform the enemy of his steps via mass media? Be it Irak or be it the Wilaya of Illizi... European and Algerian officials are doing their best (with much more than 2.000 forces in action), and hopefully we will see 31 returning safely. Peter |
No worries Chris, not about to chuck in another of my occasional, 'close to the mark' topics!
Although, I was just wondering if 3ID hit the wrong key whilst registering (can't help feeling that a Q would be better placed than the D). Sam. |
Senor Scott (Gentleman and Scholar).
Can you help? I wish to undertake a historic march to the Gates of Asda and am concerned I may get lost and also encounter the marauding friendly fire of local pigeons. Could you supply GPS way points to help? Maybe in your next edition? Thanking you very dearly, Your ever obedient servant, ChrisB |
Who the hell is that 3IQ guy anyway? he obviously hasnt a clue whats going in reality. I bet he's never been on Saharan trip to know what it is, and what it isn't.
I cant comprehend why he would write on this forum, he doesnt have anything helpful to say. OK, now I feel better. I didnt even swear. Karim Chris, I want those waypoints... |
Quote:
http://world.std.com/~Infinity/right...lttrollFAQ.htm Rgds, Roman (UK) |
Update: Randsom negotiations.
In German: Algier/Paris (dpa) - Die 31 verschwundenen Sahara-Touristen sollen nach Angaben des französischen Rundfunksenders RFI von Schmugglern entführt worden sein. Zurzeit werde über ein Lösegeld von mehreren Millionen Dollar verhandelt, meldete der Sender am Mittwoch. Er berief sich dabei auf Angaben der algerischen Behörden. Die Touristen, die seit Monaten spurlos verschwunden sind, seien wohlauf und würden in Südalgerien im Dreieck zwischen Illizi, Tamanrasset und Djanet festgehalten. Sie seien nicht wie zuvor befürchtet in den Händen von Islamisten oder Mitgliedern des Terrornetzwerkes von El Kaida. |
from the German above.....
the people holding the 31 are looking for several million dollars. They do not appear to be Islamic extremists or linked to Al Qaeda..... my comment: the affiliation of these people seems to change with the frequency of a fuel pump cam. |
To all
As always when the news starts to get thin, people start to bicker and argue (or is it debate). I would suggest we all grow up and stop the bickering and get back to the original thread of this topic i.e. 31 fellow travellers in need of support and help!! Who care sof individuals speculation and slanted thoughts. Let our thoughts and prayers get back to thos ein their hour of need. Can I ask that this forum, if it is to maintain it respectability, refrain from retorts to such easily laid bombs of diversification. So I ask, can anyone please provide up date on the important matters of this situation. After all as far as I am concerned they are still held againgst their will and liberty. The only feeling of hope is the recent release of oil riggers in Nigeria. Let us hope that this is reflected in this current "ongoing" nightmare for these individuals and their families. DuK |
Sorry, but I can't resist suggesting 3IQ should try and have a debate with Peter8769 who had some "interesting" attitudes back here:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000528.html (I'm NOT in the slightest anti-US BTW!) |
OK folks, they have been found and are hopefully in good health. We grumble because we didn't know that earlier - in live reportage from the place where it happened. I believe, the latter is the most unimportant and just expressing a "new mode" habit of media that has conquered us. I am personally not at all interested to be "live" everywhere on the world with every crisis of the world.
Why were we disinformed (and though got track on more details than the Algerian public) ? We are so used to "free speech and thought" that we forget that disinformation is most common thing in 90 % of the countries of the world. And then, if we'd known earlier what would it help ? Let us sleep better ? There are reasons to keep information to a small group of persons in order to save some lives. Who the heck here has the right to know more ? Only the families of the victims. So let's stay out of discussions of "this or that group is originator and has this or that motivation". I believe that the originators of this will only be found "in public" after the victims got out. Until then, everybody will repeat the same hypothesis again and again just to protect the negotiations and the rescue activities on both sides. Meanwhile there is only one thing left to do for us: hand over money to the families as they all (not only their beloved in Algeria) will need medical and psychological aid for a long time which not in all cases would be sponsored by other sources. Every Cent is greatly appreciated and gives a good sign of solidarity since it could have happened to each of us. Marina |
Maybe inappropriate seen the original topic of this whole message, but I think the attack by the trolls on this newsgroup has worked pretty well ;-)
Think we should consider it an honour... Jef |
While the topic lost the focus do to a prankster, the people are still out there. Have any new developments been reported lately?
Rgds Roman (UK) |
Firstly, New stuff? Reuters report http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06501059.htm How many times can an official view change?????
Secondly, I found this about the Mokhtar ben Mokhtar guy. Does anyone know anything else about him? Mokhtar ben Mokhtar has an idea of "Liberation du Grand Sud". He is Chaamba and not Tuareg as some have suggested. For some time he has been involved in all sorts of things mostly raiding the Algerian army and smuggling. A guy called Tom Metcalf, who was responsible for security for UN personnel in Algeria, said, this was early 2000(?), that Mokhtar ben Mokhtar had in the six months to the end of 1999 "lifted three hundred and sixty five 4WD out of Algeria" and shot down a military aircraft. It was also suggested that he was supplying rebels in Tchad. He is supposed to have been involved in escapades like raiding military bases/checkpoints taking soldiers about 20km from the point of capture and letting them walk back naked save for their boots... |
Some information on Benmokhtar:
Army background, largest organisation in Algeria/Niger (300 men?), heavily arming Touaregs in Niger for their fight against central govm't, links to GSPC (delivering arms and explosives), but some sort of arangement with Algerian Army in 1999 - see www.hoggar.com/lost, the articles in French (why is that guy still alive?). It does not make sense that he attracts a brigade in his major operation region, but maybe the US initiative to take action against smugglers disturbed some "local agreements"... And yes, there is a potential civil war South Algeria against central forces. Did I mention that the region could be called "Algeristan"? Regards, Peter [This message has been edited by PeterM (edited 07 May 2003).] |
Taking aside the current issues with missing tourists, when is the best season to visit Tamanrasset/Assekrem? Are there any problems with heat/sandstorms in end May/early June which makes a visit at that time unadvisable? Do sandstorms cause flight delays?
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Don't go. It's not worth it, at the moment.
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I would say now is about the worse time for good weather - I hear August can be pleasant but of course hot.
Nov can be best for clarity/heat and a tour out of Tam would be easy to organise - its only 80km. Hopefully all will be clear by then. CS |
POB/London and Chris, thanks for that. Can you be more specific on why it is bad weather or not worth it? Is it sandstorms season?
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Yep
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The New York Times found the plight of the travellers worth mentioning finalement...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/09/in...ERM.html?8hpib To read the article, you may have to register but its free!! |
This site has all the news stories: Click here
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To day news report that some tourist were released .
------------------ Mjazzem Tourist Co. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3026181.stm
Ten Austrians, six Germans and a Swede have been released and are said to be in good health, according to the foreign ministries in Vienna, Berlin and Stockholm. The fate of the other tourists - including 10 Germans, four Swiss and one Dutch citizen - is not clear German Interior Minister Otto Schily said he could not give more details except that the situation was precarious. Lets keep hoping for the others. |
Great news, hamdullilai!!
Lets hope the rest make it soon Ch |
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/...359488,00.html
report based on Algerian press release: the press release explicitly links the abductors to GSPC and indicates that release of the 17 followed a fire-fight between the Algerian army and the abductors in the Amguid region on the morning of the 13th May. The 17 were taken to Tam before being flown to Algiers. It seems the remaining group is now the one in the east near Illizi. |
This is reported on so many sources it must be true. Good news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3026181.stm |
I had imagined the groups being hidden somewhere well off limits - some well set out bandit strong hold.
News suggests otherwise..... http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/...359983,00.html They felt "the army was on their trail," Gerhard Wintersteller, an Austrian who was one of 17 tourists freed by the army, told RTL late on Wednesday. It started the moment they were seized by a group..... At first they were driven through the darkness, but soon were forced to walk more and more. "We were on the run every night, we had to walk every night. Our shoes were torn, we were at the end of our physical limits, we couldn't do it any more," Wintersteller said. |
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....and if this latest report is right, the chances for the remaining hostages being freed seems to have increased.
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Special forces of the Algerian army have freed the remaining 15 hostages several sources told Deutsche Presse-Agentur DPA today.
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/...361620,00.html |
From the BBC:
Last Updated: Monday, 19 May, 2003, 12:08 GMT More Sahara tourists 'freed' A second group of European tourists held hostage in Algeria's Sahara desert has been released, reports say. It is not clear how many have been released or what condition they are in. The release follows that of 10 Austrians, six Germans and a Swede, who arrived home last Wednesday after being rescued by commandos in a dawn raid. There were thought to be 15 others still being held captive. The adventure tourists were travelling without guides using four-wheel drive vehicles and motorbikes when they disappeared between mid-February and mid-March. The Algerian army said they had been kidnapped by Islamist rebels with links to al-Qaeda. |
I hope no one minds then if I break the 100-barrier and save myself having to give out the free prize.
CS |
As this long thread seems to come to a better end than anybody had dared to hope for, I don't think anybody minds Chris.
Peter |
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