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Modifying 110 suspension
I want to change my 110 hard top springs to heavier duty ones, to increase ground clearance over dune crests, to avoid bumping the rear tank, and stiffen it up generally. I would like to stick to genuine parts. I understand the normal procedure is to fit dual coils from a 130 to the rear, and 110 heavy duty rear type (i.e. 110 uk spec hardtop rear springs) to the front. What about the shocks - leave as standard? Last year on the standard 110 hard top springs it was ok, but ground clearance with a load was not ideal, and it swayed about a bit.
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It is normal that fully loaden 90/110 need stronger springs in the rear, except were HD ones are fitted. But don't takt too hard ones!
Stronger Springs meens different dampers - stronger "pull" dampening at least. Std. one will imho not be able to controll the increased spring forces. Very unsafe driving on road and fast driven tracks will be the consequence. Search specialist advice. A direction to look for: LR dampers used for 130 HD or military "Wolf" suspension. The strongest LR you will find as far as I know are the Wolf HD (rear): STC3087 (ANR3538?) I use this ones at the rear of my RR. Don't know part #for the front. Bye,Yves [This message has been edited by Yves (edited 15 November 2002).] |
Hi
Yves advice sounds good to me - the other choice I would look at are Old Man Emu's. Cheers ------------------ ChrisC |
and it swayed about a bit.[/B][/QUOTE]
Anti roll bar can make a difference. Cheap if you find a County that's being broken |
I know you want to stick to Genuine Parts, but Scorpion Racing in London seem to know what they are talking about, and can supply just about anything you need in the way of springs and shocks.
Can you really put 110 hard top rear springs on the front? I've got my old ones sat at home, wondering whether I should put them in... |
110 rear springs are larger diameter than any other landrover coil spring, so will not fit on the front. Heavy duty 110 front springs are the same as standard 90 rears (NRC9448 and NRC9449). I have to say that if your current rear springs are genuine NRC6904 - red + green stripe and NRC 6389 - red + red stripe, and are in good condition and you are finding the back sagging a lot, I would suggest that fitting even heavier duty suspension to cope, would imply that the vehicle is overloaded. Do you have a heavy roof load? This will greatly increase the 'sway'. Is there no way that you could lighten the load you are carrying?
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Hi,
Here the data of rear HD spring: RED/GREEN NRC6904 330lbs 6.5 15.6" L/R-DEF110HD They seem allready very stront to me, should be ok if the truck is not overloaded. BYe, Yves |
Hello Andrew,
I'm back from my "field testing" trip to Morocco, and I am now also thinking about suspension for my vehicle. Mine is a Defender 2000 year model, orginally a 110 S/W, but I managed to get a "Rest of World" spec vehicle. Unlike European vehicles, they still have a 300TDi option. I had the vehicle converted to 6x6, extending the chassis to a 150" total wheelbase. Both rear axles are Defender 90 axles, on 110 Hi-cap springs. I fitted standard length Bilstein dampers all round, including steering. Unladen, in a chassis/cab configration, the vehicle felt like it didn't HAVE any springs! On this trip, our all-up weight was a bit over 4 tonnes - comfortably within the design spec, but it's a little too soft on the springs for my liking. It is nowhere near the bump-stops, but it does tend to sway a bit much, especially when going through roundabouts! (We store nothing on the roof, but the heavy load still has huge inertia, so the momentum rolls the body on the springs when there is a change of direction. The left-right-left combination of a small roundabout needs to be taken very slowly). So... I am thinking of heavier springs, or anti-sway bars, or more damping. The trouble with heavier springs is that they will reduce the effective axle articulation, which was one of the reasons for using a Land Rover in the first place. Also, I am worried that both the sprung and the unsprung parts of the vehicle will take more of hammering if I make the springs too hard. I am definitely going for H/D springs at the front, though, as I have a (lightweight) winch, bush-bar, H/D bumper, and a Luton-like cab overhang. I dont' know if more damping will have any effect. My problem is long, comparatively slow movements of the suspension, not quick bounces. Any thoughts on this? Anti-sway bars will also reduce the axle articulation. However, I might be able to make the ends detachable with some kind of quick-release mechanism - I have seen this done on other vehicles. This will probably be my first attmept at a solution. If standard anti-sway bars solve the body roll, then I will figure out a way to disconnect them when we are in deepest darkest, and we need the full supension capabilities. From the way you describe your problem, it is also about excessive sway, rather than the springs simply being inadequate, so I think you face similar decisions. I agree with Diff's post, though - beware of overloading your vehicle, even if you solve the swaying issue. Not much useful info in this post, I am afraid, but I'll post the results of any modifications I make - and keep a look-out for anyone else's experiences. Cheers for now, Michael... |
I wouldn’t disconnect the sway bar on such a heavy vehicle. The body roll when crossing steep terrain, even at slow speed, will be exaggerated by the extra weight of the vehicle. In my opinion either go for softer springs for more articulation but sacrificing load carrying capacity and maybe stability, or try to live with it.
Another option is to install softer springs and assisted air springs. These are air bags that install between the chassis and the axle and are inflated with a small electric compressor to act as spring. The beauty of these things is that they’re adjustable from inside the cab, so you can harden or soften he suspension while driving to your heart’s content. They’re not very expensive and worth every penny. These things work and are so good that I’ll be installing them exclusively (no springs) on my next project vehicle. If installed properly they will prove to be very reliable. They are used as the only springing mechanism on new 18-wheelers, busses and even some trains. If you insist on modify the sway bar, then why not soften its effect a bit rather then disconnecting it completely. You can achieve this by reducing the size of the horizontal link. The smaller the link the softer the anti sway effect. Do this by drilling newer attachment points in the horizontal link and when needed move the link between these points. It would be best if you build a new sway bar with this feature in mind and maybe some sort or quick connect disconnect mechanism to make the changes quickly. Also the original rubber bushings of the sway bar on all production cars deflect under load and cause the vehicle to be somewhat loose. They should be replaced with polyurethane bushings. This makes a big difference in handling. For that matter I would change all the vehicle bushings to polyurethane except the one that holds the control arm to the chassis. Polyurethane tends to fail prematurely in location since it’s not designed to twist so much with such a small bushing thickness. Everywhere else on the vehicle it’s great. ------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. |
I have a 110 with rapier rear springs fitted on the rear and the original rear springs moved up front. The vehicle also has an anti roll bars fitted front and rear, and a metal bash plate under the fuel tank. For shocks I have used DeCarbon and Old Man Emu both of which have been satifactory. OME are perhaps a little more robust.
The Rapier helper springs and anti-roll bars make for a great expedition set-up if you are likely to be carrying a large payload as handling (cornering) is greatly improved. However the downside is that the set-up is fairly stiff and a little unforgiving when driving in dunes and you can end up get cross-axled. I for one dont think you want too stiff a set-up for dunes and you certainly want to do all you can to shed weight you can before beefing up your suspension. As an experiement, I intend removing the anti-roll bars to increase the axle articulation and see what effect this has. I also would not advise lifting the suspension as stability would be compromised which would be undesirable when traversing a dune face or similar. |
So you CAN put 110 rear springs on the front?
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Re: rear springs up-front on a 110.
I did not personally do the work but the garage (Wooders 4x4 - Clopton Suffolk) said that is what had been done. |
I have HD 130 coils (twinned at the back) and shocks on a 110. Works perfectly. Also, because it is a standard set-up on 130HD, easy to find/fit/replace etc. etc.
Sam. |
Thanks for all the replies - I found that the chassis of my 110 was constantly grounding on top of steeply angled dunes. Looking at the photos afterward it is clear that the deep chassis members are the problem. The weight carried was about 500kg evenly distributed. The rear did not sag, but the whole suspension was well compressed although not excessively so. The set up was standard 110 hard top springs/shocks. It was
clear that the other vehicles in the group, who did not have such deep chassis members did not have this problem. Some had taller (OME) springs, others did not. A surplus of engine power seemed to help poor ground clearance with the Toyo Colorado in the group. As I don't want to fiddle with the powerplant I have shed nearly 200 kg, and thought that raising the springs 2 inches or less or fitting slightly stiffer springs that wouldn't compress so readiily, would bring the ramp break over angle in line with everyone else in the group. OME seem to be the easiest to find out the details on, but I am also interested to know just what the springs and shocks (and part numbers/colour codes) are that are fitted to 1. Std 110 Hard top 2. Standard 130 3. Rest of world spec 110 hard top Short of asking the local main dealer , is there a web site with this information? I know it's boring but it would be a great help to know. Thanks Andrew [This message has been edited by Andrew Baker (edited 18 November 2002).] |
i know it has been mentioned before but why not give scorpion racing at kings cross a call or better still take your vehicle and let colin have a look at it.
i had similar problems last time in morrocco and came back wanting to sort this problem out. i ended up with lifted springs which when loaded up sits nicely with 5"+ clearance between axle and bump stops. this is coupled with de carbons all round and steering damper. total cost having it fitted incl polybush kit and a mot was about £900. but now i feel it was worth it. ...jack |
Some info to warm up the discussion.
Every vehicle has a carefully calculated castor angle. This is the angle of the steering pivot relative to the ground. On wishbone and leaf suspensions this angle stays relatively unchanged with suspension height. On primitive (sorry I couldn't resist) swingarm setups the higher the lift the closer the castor is to zero. At low speeds you won't notice the difference, but above about 20kmh the vehicle will wander even more than it originally did (anyone who's driven a series will know about wander, it's not only about play in the linkages); and the steeering will have less of that comforting return to centre feeling. Modified swingarms, excentric polybushes and offset chassis mounts exist to bring back the specified castor angle. Without it at worst the vehicle is more prone to rolling over, and long trips become even more tiring. Anti roll bars: one of the principles of LR design is to keep all four wheels in contact, to keep the load carried by each wheel and its patch of ground as low as possible. The moment you wave a wheel, the other three take the extra weight. The good news is that in sand, which is always in movement under the tyres that doesn't matter, and with a bit of power you can often get away with having a wheel in the air. LR have worked hard on their road dynamics; although there is body roll, some of this suppleness is there to keep load distribution as even as possible in curves. Slapping an anti roll bar underneath will certainly hold the body straight, bringing you closer to family saloon handling. BUT it will also ensure a greater mass transfer to the outside wheels, on high profile tyres (7.50 x 16) this causes squirm and scrub and excessive wear on the outside edge. by the same measure it also reduces your effective axle width on the side that counts, bringing the vehicle closer to falling over. The running gear of a LR (and a Toy for that matter) resembles that of an underdimensioned lorry, if you only expect lorry handling you will be pleasantly surprised. Even after all the mods that exist, it will still be a live axle vehicle with all the handling disadvantages (and off road advantages) that come along with it. Ultimately we learn to be happy with what we've just spent lots of money on. Happy trails Luke |
Andrew, the Standard hard top springs, and the rest of the world spec rear springs are the same, and the part numbers are in my previous post, though since approx the mid 1990's, Landrovers do not have left and right rear springs on the 110, but use NRC 6904 (red+green stripe) - 330 lbs/inch, on both sides. I don't have the part no.s for the 130 springs and helpers to hand, but from what you describe, these will be too stiff for your application. 110 rear springs will NOT fit on the front of a 110 without modifications to the spring seats. The hard top rear springs would be totally unsuitable anyway due to their 330 lbs/inch rating. The 110 rear springs(180lbs/inch) as fitted to UK county station wagon models with the self levelling unit may be suitable as heavy duty fronts, but as I stated, won't fit without modification due to the larger diameter.
The problems of ramp breakover you have described, are an attribute of the 110s design. At 110 inch wheelbase it probably had the longest wheelbase of the vehicles whithin your group + the deepest chassis, hence the problem you describe. Since you are not overloaded, the standard springs should be fine, and you will have to live with the limitations of the vehicle design unless you spend a great deal of money as (illustrated above) on a custom suspension system which may or may not cause other unforseen problems. A non standard suspension lift as previously described is the route some people take and it may work well for them, but at a price. Hope this helps. |
Hi,
I have fitted 130 coils front and rear, without the helper springs, to a 110 station wagon without the levelling system. A bit of lift and a bit more sway, but generally OK. Cheers, Andy [This message has been edited by Andyk (edited 25 November 2002).] |
A small apology to make, after further research, it turns out the front springs on my 110 are the front springs off a Rapier not the standard rear 110 springs.
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Very interesting thread.
AB, I am very interested in your suggestion of the air springs. I have been doing some reading about these - it seems they are used quite a bit on motor-homes to reduce body roll. It seems that they will cost around £200 for each rear axle, and require no modifications (purely an add-on). It gets better - on my 6x6, I could also interconnect the pair of left-hand rears, and (independently) the pair of right hand rears. This would give the rear axles some very desirable bogey attributes, while still stiffening the suspension against side-to-side motion. As I have on-board air already, it should also be pretty straightforward to have independent control, from the cab, of the pressure of the left- and right-hand pairs, which would enable me to compensate for uneven load etc. Anyone have any experience of these air springs? Are they durable and reliable? Any nasty side-effects? Also, the bogey idea just occurred to me, so I may not have thought it through fully. I was musing over the effect that interconnecting left and right would have (I believe it would make the body roll FAR worse!), and then got to thinking about a front/rear interconnect... So any comments on this would be welcomed. Luke, I take your point about regarding our vehicles as if they were lorries - you are absolutely right. None of us can expect car-like handling from a proper expediton vehicle. But there are things we can do to reduce excessive body roll. The challenge, as you point out, is to do so without simply transforming the problem into something else, possibly more dangerous or damaging. (Incidentally AB, just to clarify, anti-roll bars were an option on Defenders, so it's not a case of my taking them off, it's a case of whether I fit them at all. I would try these as my first option, except that I can't see any way of attaching them to axle #2, and I think they will be ineffective / harmful if only fitted to axle#3. Still an option to consider, though). Regards to all, Michael |
I just got back from RIM in my overloaded '94 110 CSW. I was running 'Terrain Tamer' shocks made by Gabriel and standard front springs / heavy duty LR rear springs as mentioned earlier in this thread(3050kg if I remember correctly) without helper springs. (Plus the Boge self levelling unit & ARB still in place)
Unfortunately, we were doing mods and packing up until 2am the day we left (at 2am!) and didn't get time to test. I agree that payload should be minimised where possible, but I still had between 1000 and 1200kg to carry, including 200kg 500mm behind the rear crossmember (my XR650R). Weight is the most important factor for suspension set up, if the dealer is not interested in what payload you have, or says it makes no difference, it may be best to look elsewhere. The gas shocks had transformed the ride, I thought they were excellent, until the rears broke (the first between Choum & Nouadhibou, the 2nd in the Atlas). It wasn't much fun driving back to the UK with a single front shock mated up to the rear! I took the broken shocks back to the Importers (Paddock), who refused to replace them saying that they were not suitable for severe off road use and the next pair would be destroyed again. They did give me a refund & said they would not be selling these shocks to people undertaking similar adventures. Our driving was generally fast & somedays we were airborne 4-5 times with 8-10 hits on the bump stops. I bought a pair of OE shocks from DLS, but the ride is lousy again! DLS had Delphi and Bilstein gas shocks available and would have made more money from them, but were honest enough to say they had plenty of customers that had broken them too. I am quite happy to accept that giving the rear shocks twice as much work to do (in terms of weight) plus the enhanced damping of more effective gas units is going to result in a lot more heat to dissipate. Do this over a long piste, with relatively high temperatures & they are likely to break. (Both of mine bent their damping rods, due to the heat, then snapped) Carrying a couple of spare rears is probably wise. I shall run a dual-shock set up on both sides at the back next time. BTW the front springs were adequate and the back was slightly undersprung. Part of the way we travelled with an OME equipped 110CSW, their rear end was bouncing more than ours.. I am not sure who supplied it but they got the wrong spring and damper rates. At least nothing broke though :-) IanB |
as someone else has stated,the best option for your 110 would be Old man emu.The wolf option is not designed for the use that you intend,far too stiff.
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SandyM,
The air bag suspensions, especially Firestone, are very strong and reliable providing they are properly installed. If you’re going to install the inside the coil spring air bag, make sure you get the correct one for the springs you have not just for the vehicle. If you’ve changed to a heavier duty or more travel version then mention that to the air bag manufacturer. If you’re going to install a regular air bag along side the spring make sure it has the correct travel, otherwise it might just rip if it’s too short. Some air bags have an internal bump stop so make sure it doesn’t bottom out before the vehicles bump stop. Also make sure there’s an inch of clearance all around the air bag. The bags can usually withstand flying rocks and pebbles but I would install some sort of rubber shield around it for extra protection. These bags have been used extensively off road with great success. I’ve seen them in hill climbing buggies, in a Paris Dakar truck and in a Baja 500 pro truck. They are optional in a few upscale 4x4 like the Expedition the H2 (Hummer) and the new Range Rover. If you feel adventures you might to install them (a heavy duty version) to replace the springs entirely. This is the ultimate setup as you can easily inflate or deflate it to handle whatever load you carry and you’ll have the most comfortable ride ever J. You can use the air bags to improve articulation. Connect the left and right air bags via a manual or electric valve or solenoid. When the valve is closed the Air bags will provide the best stability and load balancing. When going slowly on rough terrains, open the valve so the air flows freely between the 2 opposing air bags. When a tire is lifted on a rock or whatever, the air bag will compress and the air will escape into the other end. This will force the stiff suspension to travel more downwards and provide more articulation and traction. Also the vehicle will sit a bit more level while crawling on the rocks. But this should only be practiced at slow speeds. If you install air bags at the 4 corners of the vehicle then connect the right front to the left rear and the left front to the right rear. This will improve slow speed articulation and travel at all corners of the vehicles. Again: only at slow speed. ------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. |
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------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. |
Tnx for all contributions - I am investigating Old Man Emu and airbags with the standard set up.
Best wishes to all Andrew |
Hi
You wouldnt happen to be the Andrew Baker that lived in Chiddingstone??? |
Hi David,
Not far out, I used to live in Tunbridge Wells - now in Crowborough, East Sussex. Cheers, Andrew. |
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