West-East Sahara crossing by camel caravan
 

Hi everyone,

I am planning an expedition to cross the Sahara on camel, I know this could take months.

The idea is still in its infancy, however this is a general call out to other people who might be interested in joining me or finding out more.

I've started to gain momentum in my research and I'm reaching out so if anyone simply has experience or knowledge regarding guides, salt caravans, fixers, people they know who have done similar or any advice, it would be whole heartedly well received. Or if you think I'm completely nuts please let me know :)

I will still research this stuff myself, but I don't know what I don't know so I'll take any and all advice.

A bit about me - I'm a 35 year old film composer from Sydney and recently my life got turned upside down for numerous reasons, so I thought to myself 'I want to have a life changing experience' and thought this would be just that adventure.

So please get in touch if you want to know more or are thinking of doing something similar! Lets chat :)

Have a great day,
Dan

Hello and welcome!
Every few years there is a nutter with the same idea :)
it was never doable and now even less then ever before
You cant cross Algeria, Libya, Mali, Niger for security reasons.
Even Tunisia is unsafe. And the eastern borders of Morocco and Mauretania also no go.
You can read about some of the other trekkers here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-caravan-67746
http://www.humanedgetech.com/expedit...=21&view=39475
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...atlantic-49257
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...amelling-72929
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7744386-sahara
Paula Constant made it from Maure to Niger. And Christian Bodegren from the Red Sea to Tunisia, where he ran out of luck (accused of smuggling camels from Libya!).
Why not cross Australia instead?

North Africa is very safe these days. Especially Tunisia (as it has always been). Been there twice in the past 18 months.

Early January 2015 - Ksar Ghilane

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps7a145ce3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps53a58993.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...psed18e3d6.jpg

Near the Lybian border

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...pse54e2a4e.jpg

I returned to Douz in May 2016. Didn't go any lower as it was stinking hot. Too hot to cross the desert to Ksar Ghilane alone this time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...pst2eov1ql.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...pscapqubhc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...psskiiagpi.jpg

Sure, doing the annual pilgrim route from Mauritania thru Mali, Nigeria, Tchad, Soudan, Saudi Arabia to Mecca might prove difficult though. ;-) You can ride from Morocco to Nouahckott through Western Sahara if you stay on the main road. But once in Mauritania, it will be risky to go East toward Mecca. ;-)

Brave man. I spent two days on a camel. Never again. Even a KTM is more comfortable!

Well youre supposed to walk with the camel, not ride it ;)

Thanks for the advice and stories everyone, seems it might be a bit more challenging than I first thought, particularly security. I am determined to make it happen though, and it's good to know I'm the next nutter that has come along to suggest the idea. I'm thinking I should work out a country at a time.

Please keep the posts coming!

Hard to tell how seriously to take this.

OP, have you any experience with camels? I mean, at least enough to know that they tend to be surly, opinionated, difficult to load, and hideously uncomfortable?

Have you any experience with self-supported desert travel? How about movement in low-level war zones? Spent any time in Africa at all? Etc.

Not trying to criticize; it's just that you're not giving much to go on here. What you're proposing is unlikely to come to any sort of fruition unless you happen to have considerable resources at your disposal--this means money, time, stamina, skills and experience. Plus some more stuff, like luck.

There are folks here who're well-supplied with much of the above. You might attract some interest if you can demonstrate real potential; otherwise, you look like just another dreamer.

Hope that's helpful.

Mark

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the message, I understand I haven't given you much to go on. I do have the time, money, stamina and some skills, but as far as unsupported desert camel travel in low level war zones I have no experience.

The idea is still in it's infancy, but reading others stories I believe it is possible (political climate depending of course). This thread is just a generic call out to others who might be interested or to offer advice/tips. I've already made contacts within a few days, and a route is starting to form, but as far as logistics it is still a way away.

Perhaps you could offer some advice on what might make people take me a bit more seriously? Or how to demonstrate real potential? Or better yet how I might connect with some more experienced folks on here?

Thanks,
Dan

crossing the Sahara with camels
 

"as far as unsupported desert camel travel in low level war zones I have no experience"


hello Dan - what about spending first a 4 weeks test in Mauritania with camels?


Just to get good camels is an adventure - did you read "Impossible Journey" ?



All the best and Good Luck - Ursula

Is such a journey impossible? Well, nothing is impossible and any dream is meant to be experienced. But you don't get to climb the Everest without ever having hiked previously...

I'd say start by visiting Southern Morocco on a motorcycle. Get ooe of these tourist camel back rides in Merzouga or M'Hamid El Ghizlane. Maybe reach Mauritania. Then get a feel for the environment. Ask questions. Get a feel for this new environment. Then you will know if you are ready for crossing the continent. Any which way you want.

I myself would love to cross Africa. But maybe I am 10 to 15 years too late. Back then, only Western Sahara was dangerous with its inhabitants' territorial revendications and the Polisario. Now Occidental politics have created terrorism in Africa. And it won't get any better.

crossing the Sahara
 

the impossible journey...
became finally a reality! Michael Asher, the writer of the above mentioned book, crossed the Sahara from Mauritania to the Red Sea with his wife and camels.

Morocco is IMHO still too near to the civilisation. In Sudan, Dongola, or Mauritania, Atar, you can experience during a short stay paperwork, markets, camel trade and climate. Both countries offer Sahara conditions to test a trip with local camels.

PS my anatomy did not like the moorish camel saddles...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/726643...7621650762967/

Wishing that one day, I'll be able to cross from Mauritania to the Red Sea on a motorcycle. Sadly, it might only stay a wish. ;-(

Lee

Hi Dan,

The "Impossible journey" was 30 years ago, and Asher as far as I remember the story worked in Sudan with Camels and spoke fluent Arabic! Things has changed since then ....
Dan you are from OZ and maybe not so aware of the Problems with Kidnappings in the past and other Political problems which paralysed basically the Sahara and Africa Overland Tourism, thats where your research should start, in deep!!!

Asher's book is a good start and if you take all the current security aspects in consideration add them to Ashers experience then you might find that there's a hell of a lot more Adventures out there with even a better survival chance than E-W Sahara.

Don't forget the mines in Chad.;)

Thanks for all the more info. Yes I have been doing a lot more research into the political climate and which boarders are closed (overland & militarised). Plus Libya is sort of a no go zone as far as I've read. I know of the kidnappings too, however there are also a lot of people saying they've been there recently and everything felt safe.

Travelling across Chad is out of the question, so I'm thinking a route change is in order. Perhaps the EW crossing was possible 10 years ago, it would be extremely hard today. I'm now thinking Mauritania/Morocco (more research on boarders needed) into Algeria into Tunisia and finish at the Mediterranean.

Yes I totally agree with getting there first and climatising myself to the country. Would be a lot easier to get info re guides/camels etc.

mines and UXO s
 

There are more mines between Mauritania – Morocco – Algeria than in Chad!
We have seen many UXO s in the border area between Mauritania/Western Sahara/Algeria/Morocco.

Chad is the safest Sahara country for the moment, except the borders with Nigeria.
(my last trip was in january and the next in february J)

Ok cool thanks for the info, what do you mean when you say 'we have seen more mines...'?

I've read that it's ok there so I'm just getting conflicting information. I was just wondering where you got your info from?

Going Maure - Algeria - Tunisia wouldnt count as a crossing of anything. really.
From Morocco you cant get anywhere except north and south.
Let's speculate.
How about Mauretania - Algeria - Niger - Chad - Sudan?
Impossible, of course, but take it bit by bit and analyze it.
Supposing you have all the visas arranged.
Make a route with suitable distance between water holes.
Figure out where to get camels and guides.
Only five countries ;)

Is it possible to cross from Mauretania to Algeria? If not, why not?
From In Guezzam to Agadez you would need an escort.
Then probably another escort from Agadez eastwards. Hugely exepensive, if at all possible.
Is it possible to get into Chad from Niger these days?
Why would it be impossible to cross Chad, even with the mines, if you find the proper guides?
Can you cross inte northern Sudan from Chad?
Once in Sudan you should be ok I think. "Almost there".
The answer to the questions is "probably not"
but we dont really know, since noone has done it and noone has asked.

Paula Constant might have made it, if there hadnt been a tuareg uprising in Niger.
Diplomatic Niger… | Paula Constant
And then there was the Arab Spring and everything that followed.

Thanks for your post priffe.

Yeah I hear what you're saying, basically unless I'm part of the special forces I won't be able to do it, at least not in the current climate. Closed boarders etc etc, yet in other posts people are openly talking about how they're crossing boarders and the most annoying thing is the time it takes.

I've sort of let go of the 'big crossing' since delving into my research. Now I'm thinking Atlantic to Mediterranean. Seriously looking at boarders, guides etc. Surely there must be a way to walk with some friggin camels from one point to the next! I've learnt a lot in a week thanks to the help of everyone, I'll make it happen!

Please keep posting with any info...

Did we say that the Morocco/Algeria border has been closed for 20 years? Only registered nomads are allowed thru the border. The only way to cross for us is to go thru Spain but I doubt a camel is allowed on the ferry ;-) And if you think you can smuggle your way in, then be aware that a very long trench has been dug along the border )on both sides) and that they have outposts every few kilometers with night vision equipment etc to check smugglers. Got caught there myself for 6 hours in an army truck in a sand storm because I got too close, while the map showed no border line. That was East of Tendrara... ;-)

OP - If your goal is to lose yourself in the rocky desert or in the mountains to appreciate the value of life, don't worry, Morrocco has plenty for you to do that. If you are into a survivalist mood, go there in July. ;-)

The trenches.

http://www.chanvre-info.ch/info/ne/l...enne-c0685.png

http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/19/36/62/18/fronti10.jpg

sure there is, what about OZ with Camel, no border crossings, no guides, no language problems, .... to easy for you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel

mines and UXO s
 

« what do you mean when you say 'we have seen more mines...'? »

I have not seen mines but wrecked cars and UXO s on our trip from Gueltat Zemmour to Foum Zguid.
We used the old Spanish Road, asked local people whenever it was possible, drove only on pistes with fresh tracks, made even camp in the middle of the road - in any case there was nobody else on the way but us.

So one could say it is safe when you stay on the road – but with a camel caravan ? with grass and acacias left and right of the piste ?

A few years later a car hit a mine between Zag and Assa, a piste where we had passed before.
(confirmed by Landmine Monitor and UN Mine Action)

The German Demining Troups report 12 accidents with 14 wounded and 13 killed in 2015
http://www.einsatz.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/einsatzbw/!ut/p/c4/LYvBCoMwEET_KGugYukt4qW30ku1F1nNIktjIulaQfz4JuAMDM w8Bt6Q7PHHEwoHjw5a6Ea-DZsaNks9sf-i7KniR1Zy7pxIdoJXPltSY_AkOYW8cMopooSolhDFZbLGmIhiC 12hm1pXl-KUPkxZmUdbXnVzr5-wzLP5A4V2vFY!/

Read also
http://removethewall.org/the-un-secretary-general-landmines-and-other-explosive-remnants-of-war-continued-to-endanger-the-lives-of-local-and-nomadic-populations-in-western-sahara/

http://www.the-monitor.org/en-gb/reports/2016/western-sahara/casualties-and-victim-assistance.aspx

As I understood it, Paula Constant even gave up on crossing Australia with camels because of 'being utterly fed up with bureacratic issues"
Still alive, sorry! | Paula Constant

Yeah that is a big trench, I was aware the border with Morocco is closed, so was thinking of heading in via mauri. I've read Algeria has basically closed all it's borders, you need permission get through.

I'm going to do a search of this forum regarding crossing borders and maybe create a more specific thread later on, as clearly an e/w Sahara trip is sort of impossible nowadays.

Yeah I do want to go on a long journey through the desert, off the tourist path, and my gut feeling is that it can be done. It's exciting finding out more info.

You could try to get on a camel train from Timbuktu to the salt mines at Taoudenni and back. Its a well worn route so you are not going to feel like you are exploring new tracks, but it might more than satisfy your interest in camels - personally Id rather ride a Penny Farthing without a saddle - or a KTM :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ1eQ99Triw


Security wise Timbuktu has had some issues and a couple of kidnappings, make sure you are up to speed with AQIM activity, but its not as sketchy as some of your other ideas ;) good luck!

Timbuktu would be nice, but it's to far east for me. I think camel riding will be kept to a minimum as well, I'll be walking them mostly I imagine.

Yeah I've had some pretty crazy ideas about the crossing, but the more people I speak to the more it feels like it's doable. Everyone is being so amazingly helpful, and realistic too which is what is so good.

Thanks for the youtube vid too, those guys work hard...

Really? :rofl:

Your first point of research should be the UK Foreign Office travel website (or an equivalent in another country) to check out the conditions in the various countries.

Five minutes research should be enough to convince anyone that it's a non-starter. An unbridled optimism isn't the best attribute for this type of adventure travel.

I would take that UK website info with a grain of salt. Pe exemple, Morocco and Tunisia seems to have been treated with two very different standards. Morocco having received the UK's seal of approval in term of safety, while one should only travel to Tunisia in absolutely necessary... Really? My two previous experiences in Tunisia have proven very safe. They have terrorist shootings in Tunisia? Yes. Two or three of them in the past two years... But much less people died than in the US where mass shooting is a weekly occurence. How is the US treated in term of safety for travel? Should France also be on the list of countries not to visit? After all, they had the Bataclan attack where 130 people died, and 80 more people died in Nice last month.

I am sorry if I offend some people, but things aren't always what they seem.

Thanks Tim and Massive Lee,

Tim yeah I've checked out the government safety warnings, the Aus one basically says avoid the whole of North Africa. I don't think it is unbridled optimism, I am researching this carefully and in terms of what I'm reading it's about 50/50, some people say avoid it like the plague, some people say they found it fun and felt safe. I think it's far to great an opportunity to let slip just because of 'terrorism', granted though that Westerns do stick out a bit more there.

I hear your point too Massive Lee, in terms of safety statistically the US is worse, regarding the tragedy of common mass shootings there (I'm sorry to all the US readers, but that's really all the news we hear about the US, that and Trump). However I love the States and have visited many times and feel safe there.

I think because we hear about kidnappings and bombs from these countries that's all we associate with them, statistically though I'm more likely to be eaten by a shark when swimming at my local beach. It's because we feel we have no control over the situation, and that it's an unfamiliar situation that we fear it. Families, cultural events, universities, tourists, commerce, development all happens in these countries, they're just very rough around the edges (literally, at the borders).

I do take safety seriously and I acknowledge there's risk in everything.

FCO warnings
 

As Sir Humphrey once said, the Official Secrets Act is not there to protect secrets, but to protect officials. Similarly the FCO travel warnings serve the prime purpose of being able to say "I told you so" should something actually happen. The warnings are far too general and outdated (and sometimes outright ignorant) to serve as any practical guidance for the real situation on the ground.

Many of the countries in question are huge with vastly differing regions, different ethnicities, and correspondingly different security situation. Case point Chad, where some of the safest regions in the North of the country are marked red, while others which I would consider much more dodgier from experience are marked "only" yellow.

This being said, to be able to judge the actual risks and overall situation requires local knowledge and much experience, in absence of either it is not a bad idea to adhere to the FCO advice.

first step
 

Mauritania – Algeria – Tunisia

What about talking what you need to cross the borders the legal and official way?
(for the illegal one you better ask the smugglers J

- Mauritanian visa on arrival at the airport for Australians, visitors not holding return/onward tickets could be refused entry
- get the permissions in Nouakchott to travel from Atar to Chegga
- get a guide who dares to escort you there
- get the Visa for Algeria : condition - a Travel Agency has to ask for the ok in Algier for the planned track, probably they can/must provide guides to escort you all the time up to Tunisia
- from Chenachen, Algeria, where would you cross the Sahara to pass the tunisian border ?
- visa : Australians can stay in Tunisia for 3 month and dont need one (as far as I know)

I hope you are aware that on this route you will meet all kind of armed people, particularly at the water points in the triangel Mauritania/Mali/Algeria.

Step by step – its a looooong way before you can start…

Out of curiosity - did the caravan routes east all go over Kufra, or is there another route east from Faya?

caravans
 

no - there were many different pistes!
one started near the oasis of Mut and went to Uweinat and further SW - called Abu Ballas Trail (Donkey Trail)


if you google with
"commerce transsaharien"
you get quite a lot of maps
http://up.picr.de/26489840jo.jpg

That really depends on the period. During Senoussi times Borkou (including Faya) was under a loose Senoussi rule, and there was no East-West trade North of the Ennedi, all routes controlled by the Senoussi in the Libyan Desert were North-South.


Of course earlier, going back to Pharaonic times as Ursula said, there were clearly some East-West routes, the Abu Balla trail was one, the Wadi Howar another.

:thumbup1:

caravans
 

As the eastern part of the Sahara is not well represented among the internet maps I had a look in my books

http://up.picr.de/26500279rt.jpg
map of Michael Asher s book „Darb el arbain“ or „La piste des quarante jours“ or
"In search of the forty days road"
the donkey trail between Dongola, Wadi Milk to El Fasher is still used today




http://up.picr.de/26500280tv.jpg
map from a book with many more maps „ Desert Road Archeology“ Heinrich Barth Institut Köln

I wonder why the french built the Fort Agoza in the Mourdi Depression at the border Chad / Sudan.
Was there an East – West passage coming from Merga /Nukheila - El Atrun - Dongola ?
On some maps there is a caravan route marked from Dongola to Bilma, passing south of Tibesti.

Arita Baaijens describes also a camel caravan route from Dongola to Bir Bidi, Oyo and Merga / Nukheila as a part of the Darb el Arbain route coming from El Fasher (2000/2002)
http://www.slideshare.net/baaijens/desert-travels-in-darfur

Except for the border crossing shouldn't be a problem walking from Faya to El Atrun then. :)
And perhaps security concerns in Northern Darfur, but the real problems are further south.

It is really a question of semantics here, the way I would define a "caravan route" is a regularly used trade route with well established wells and resting places, under the control of one or several political entities.


In this respect there were no real East-West routes across the Libyan Desert in medieval times, the only major routes were going South from Kufra (controlled by the Senoussi) and the Darb el Arbain controlled by the Sultans of Darfur.


There were the occasional one-off caravans which traversed little used routes (e.g. the caravan of Ali Dinar from Darfur to Kufra via Uweinat -Jebel Anwar - described by Bidi el Awad, as told to Arkell and printed in Sudan Notes and Records), but generally there was no real East-West traffic via the central Libyan Desert, except for the short-lived Farafra to Kufra camel trail through the great sand sea via Ain Dalla in Senoussi times.


Also there was some trade between the Senoussi in Kufra and the Fezzanese Oases, that went via Wau Kebir, Wau Namus and either Tazerbo or Rebiana.


Prior to that the Tibu controlled the whole area between Kufra & the Tibesti, as they were hostile to all outsiders there were no routes through this area linking North & South. Most of the 'routes' marked on old maps are the tracks of one-off travelers & explorers or just hearsay.


Of course further south there was regular trade between Bornou and Darfur, but all that happened south of the Ennedi. Similarly Darfur was linked to the Nile via several routes, as Ursula mentioned the Donkey trail from Dongola is still in use.

Said donkey caravan, departing to El Fasher from Dongola (November 2015):

http://www.fjexpeditions.com/expedit...ov15/p8149.jpg

Thanks Andrasz and Ursula for clearing that up.

I wouldn't want to spend my energy on crossing borders. The following looks impressive enough to me. I don't think anybody has done it recently:
- Learn Hassaniya
- Go to Chinguetti (or further east as long as you consider it safe)
- Have someone teach you how to care about camels (I'm sure people here can help you with some contacts)
- Buy a camel or two
- Walk them to the coast
- optional: Walk them back on a different route
- Sell the camels and write a book about your experience

Crossing the desert unsupported is hard enough as it is. No need for politics.

The original poster should surely do just that. And go from there.

In Africa, crossing borders have unfortunately become such a large part of the voyage, both time-wise and expense-wise, that many travelogues these days occupy themselves with this more than the actual travelling.
Same sad development is evident on this and many other forums.

Great answer bayu – to the point (Ursula suggested similar 2 weeks ago).
These plucky guys did as much in 2002:
Tasting the sand - Travels with camels in Mauritania
Still possible I reckon, maybe with the requirement of nightly sat calls to police.

This very experienced guy, Regis Belleville (did Chinguetti-Timbuktu direct with a guide - 1000km between wells) set out on a solo west-east in 2005 trying to stick to the 20th parallel (Majabat, Tenere, Tibesti). He got as far as the Tenere. Planned to carry on but presumably Saharan events outran him.

Chad Ennedi would be another great location;
Sudan Nubian Desert a bit easier.

Camel crossing the Sahara – top down, left right – periodically captures people’s imagination but besides missing the point (IMO), the way things are in the Sahara today is just unnecessarily complicated and risky.

Another good read: the hubristic Geoff Moorhouse’s Fearful Void.

Like some peaple have suggested you, start by a 2 to 4 weeks desert trip in order to learn what is the Sahara and manage/ride camels.
Manage camels is not easy and will require few months of practice with a guide.
I have done few camels trips those ten last years in the deserts of algeria.
You can do for example the Tam-Djanet in one month with camels or Nouakchott-Chenguetti in Mauritania.

camel caravans Sahara
 

BTW I proposed Atar in Mauritania and Dongola in Sudan to start because there are big
camel markets in these towns, easier to buy some good camels.

Another option is to join an existing local camel caravan, rather a tough journey !
Still on the way seen in the past in

Mauritania: N/S from Tichit/Aoukar with salt
https://www.flickr.com/photos/726643...n/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/726643...in/photostream

Mali : N/S from Taoudeni to Timbuktu with salt
Niger : E/W and W/E between Bilma and the Air mountains with salt and dates
Libya: S/N in the Erg Idrisi from Chad to Kufra with camels to slaughter
Libya: S/N near Uweinat from Sudan to Kufra do
Sudan: S/N near Dongola from Kordofan to Egypt do

Have also a look at Google Map !
20°59'42.7"N 22°43'56.3"E
and at Here Maps
21.35832,22.96397

Yes it seems border crossings are going to be a main problem of this trip, whether they are closed or militarised. I'm still researching all this and getting deeper. Visas shouldn't be a problem, provided you can prove you're actually going to leave the country. The Algeria/Tunisia border is closed overland.

I have made contact with a man from a tribe in Algeria who is currently living in Australia and is offering to help where he can. I also have a contact in Mauritania who is offering to help with that leg of the trip, so the pieces are starting to fall into place, even if they are rather small pieces, but hey you gotta start somewhere.

As far as camel training goes yes I have no experience! I'm getting in touch with camel farms in Aus to train here, and when I get to Western Sahara I plan to spend a bit of time there acclimatising and training also.

I've been away for a couple of weeks (Vipassana) hence my silence on this thread, but I will be active again now once I have filtered through all the amazing information everyone is giving...

Western Sahara - Mauritania border open?
 

Hi there,

Was just wondering if anyone had recent experience crossing from Western Sahara into Mauritania overland?

If so was wondering where you crossed? Any challenges faced etc.

Thanks,
Dan

Dan, please do even some elementary research before asking such questions.

Click the banner above that says 'Trans Sahara Routes'
It's updated every few months and looks like this:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/alo...ransroutes.gif

Or the last post in the uppermost sticky titled:
Mauritania Visa: Rabat or @ the Border
or the one below it that says:
Border crossing into Mauritania
Both have had responses in the last couple of weeks.

The HU travel forums are a great resource where a little reading and clicking first goes a long way.

Yeah I hear what you're saying, I haven't just come in here blind. The issue I'm facing is there is so much information, some of it contradictory, some of it old, it's always changing, so it's hard to know what is right. And even when you know it's right, you don't know if it's the best option.

So it was more of a generic 'what did other people do' call, rather than a 'do all the work for me' call.

Nevertheless those links you gave are good so thanks for that.

There is only one crossing. Look at the map.

You've just made it very clear to yourself too, you're doing the research now for a trip that might start in a year or so?

BUT as with the rest of the continent, visas/borders/internal crisis etc can change at any given moment, you will have to keep your ear to the ground once on the road! So keep that in mind too!!!

Trying to dot all the ii and cross all the tt for a trip in Africa at a distance of one year is a sure receipt for failure and frustration.

Dan, Africa is a different continent and very different from what us, westerners are used. The best approach, as a matter of fact, is to just plan very broadly (and I mean to plan just rough dates to start and end and an idea of countries you want to visit and stop the planning there) and once there just go with the flow. Don't try to plan for you'll soon find that nothing will ever go according to what you planned. You won't be able to keep schedules or even fixed dates and many times places you want to visit will suddenly become off-limits and you end up visiting other places which you didn't consider originally. Changes happen without any prior notice, political situations change from one day to the next, rules are enforced differently even inside the same country, some others are made on the spot according to your demeanor and a very big etc fueling the uncertainty. There exists a handful of countries in the continent where things are more reliable and organized but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Go there and start going. Then just allow things to happen and go where you can according to what you hear on the spot at any given time. And always, no matter what, take it easy. Let it flow.

No not starting in a year or so, starting as soon as I can, my aim is for the end of the year. Save and train while I research.

I know I'm not as experienced as everyone else on here, and some of you might be thinking I'm crazy or that's it's undoable, and it could be, that's the whole point of digging.

I take this seriously, I take safety seriously but I can't be expected to be the master of Sahara travel and know everything after 2 weeks looking into it, which is why I value everyones comments so much.

Please forgive my ignorance sometimes dumb questions, but if you don't ask you don't learn right? I see now the title of this thread is kind of dumb, but hey at least I know a lot more now and I have somewhere I can start.

Thanks for all the comments, and if you have more info to add please do :)

Thanks for the post Plooking. That is basically what I'm intending to do, find where I can cross the borders (as that will denote a rough route), do some initial research on guides who can help and take me and my companions through the desert and go from there. That's the whole point of this, to get there and somehow find my way to where I want to go, and if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. I have semi-ample funds for this and plenty of time when I'm there, in fact the only time I'm limited by is the visa time.

If I plan to go this direction and someone says 'no go this way, it's a lot safer/better/enjoyable' then I will happily change. I feel if I try and get to detailed it's just going to be a huge mother stress.

So I guess I'm planning the broad brush strokes, the detail will happen when I get there.

You are 110% right ... there are many border crossings people use over & over again, but there are some minor ones. I crossed 2 in the last month in West Africa that never see 'les blancs' ...

I travel alone and do a lot of talking locally to people, particularly in regards to whether it was an international crossing still & I could get my passport stamped, I went ahead and did it.

What will probably help you is a good map, either IGN or Michelin of the region so you can see border crossings marked (and check later if you're able to use them when you're on the ground!)

PS. How is your French? Arabic may help you too, but it would be good to have a French phrase book if you don't speak French!

Dan, while I understand your intentions and what you want to accomplish I can't, like others already did, stress vehemently enough that what you are trying to do with the camel caravan is very dangerous even to attempt right now. Now, if you'd like to stick to the coastal areas, that might be ok but even here trying to plan is worthless. Things just don't work like that in that region. It's ok and very rewarding to look for off the beaten track adventures. But Mauritania isn't the right place for this just now. If you look at a map or Google Earth you'll probably find some places which resemble like possible border crossings from Morocco to Mauritania. Trying to cross at these spots, even assuming that the Moroccan army somehow lets you slip thru the berm (very, very unlikely given that even approaching the berm from the Moroccan side is very difficult and the military just sends you back long before you reach the wall) is one of the most dangerous things you can attempt in Africa right now. Between the land mines and the bad guys your chances of ever seeing civilization again upon entering Mauritania that way are slim to none.

The Sahel has been a dangerous area for quite a while but since the downfall of Khadaffi in Lybia it became even more dangerous and even more populated by people who won't hesitate to harm you for profit, be it either just stealing all your belongings and leave you for death in the middle of nowhere or kidnapping you either for ransom or for political and local prestige of some minuscule group looking for recognition.


Let me put it bluntly. I'm fairly proficient with weapons and have no mental or emotional reservations whatsoever with shooting to kill whomever approaches me with bad intentions. I can easily gather a group of 5-6 friends with similar dispositions and of the adventurous type. Let's also assume that I could source a few decent guns for the trip, this being decent assault rifles (in the desert this doesn't allow for many options what is a further constraint), plenty of ammo, some RPGs and pistols for a last resource defense at very close range. On a camel you can't realistically aim for much more than this. Now I tell you that even like this, decently armed, with a group of friends and with the right mindset, I wouldn't venture, in Mauritania, east of Ouadane or Zhouérat. And even this far only after seeing things there for a little while because there is the strong possibility of deciding, upon reaching Atar that going further east wouldn't worth the risk.

To back Plooking's message up, the region wasn't good before Ghadaffi died, I'd say similarly that I wouldn't go too far east in Mauri, certainly not up to Zouerat ...

Back in early ?2008 there was the attack on 4 French tourists in a vehicle in Aleg (which is a lot further south nearer the Senegalese border) and a year later an Italian man & his Burkinabe wife on the BF/Mali border. AQIM have been active in the region for a while, the Mauritanians have made massive efforts to keep as much of the country as safe as they can, it was since then that they lost the Paris-Dakar to S.America. Having said that, with all the checkpoints I can imagine they'll probably want to escort you

However, you could possibly bring this trip a little further south, going through Mauri, skirting into Senegal and continue onto Mali (but still keeping your ear to the ground), Burkina & Niger ... however I've got no idea what the authorities will make of doing it with a camel & how much cash they'll try to get off you!

Language issues are going to be very important for this trip!

Listen to the FOAM.

What do you mean 'listen to the FOAM'?

Hi
Ive spent time in the desert, with camels. a journey. with Nomads. I had to, due to mis-adventure. I did not choose it.

I think its alot harder than you might think. its a long walk. it is walking. Walking for many days/ weeks. you had better love walking. sitting on the camel is worse. you have to walk. You take a camel to carry supplies for your long walk. did I mention that you will be Walking? Personally I wouldn't do it again. sorry, just putting a different opinion here.

Note also: if you focus on the challenge of the completion of the journey (A to B) you may find that it is an anti-climax when you arrive after all that effort and endurance.

I would test it out by going on an organised camel trek somewhere and see how it feels after say 7 days. maybe you will love it.

cheers
Karim

Mauretania has been safe for years now. The limiting factor is where the army will let you go.
If you stay south of the river Niger you can walk to Burkina and perhaps continue as far east as Agadez. But you wont be in the Sahara much.

Pity you were forced to do it, Karim. Certainly a caravan is not the most efficient way to get from a to b.
Others have found that something happens after a week or two in the desert. Perception of time and space start to change. Cant happen in a few days.
A life changing experience for many. That is why some people cant stay away from the desert, they have to return for more.

priffe, it's been safe in the areas where most people go which are under heavy surveillance these days. This being the coastal route and not much than this. Maybe the road from Nouakchott to Atar but even the Atar tourism never recovered from the troubles. Who knows how things are further east? I don't think any westerners ventured east of Ouadane or even east of Chingueti in the last years.

Maybe Chris can help here. When did you last have notice of westerners venturing east of Chingueti overland?

I havent been east of Chinguetti or Ayoun but there's been a few stray tourists as far east as Nema and some are riding the dunes. Security was very strict for a couple years but less so now. I have been told (by a colonel) I can go anywhere, Tidjidja and Tichit and even Oualata if I keep in touch with the gendarmes. We normally exchange phone numbers and they do call when I am on a piste, if I dont call in before night.
No incidents for several years means Mauretania is safer than Orlando and Paris. How safe do you need?

What's there to see beyond Guelb anyway? Just dunes and tussock fields all the way to the Taoudenni piste. No one ever went there even when they could, unless heading right across (when that was possible)
The most interesting places in RIM are south or west of Guelb, IMO.
I'd be happy to explore that area and don't mind a nightly check-in if it means no escort requirement. No need to go all J-C Van Damme about it ;)

I've been surfing the web and reading up on the situation in Mauritania. Luckily I read/speak Arabic, so I can get different points of views.

Apparently the Mauri government is desperate to be taken off the travel warnings list, especially the French Foreign Offices list, as they're keenly aware of the consequences of being on it.

Tourism has plummeted just as they wanted to expand the sector. Every news article has some Mauritania government official telling how safe the country is and how terrorism has been suppressed, and they're campaigning hard with the French to change the country's status. Officials from the Mauritania ministry of tourism have also participated in fairs/expos to draw attention to what the country has to offer.

Personally I'd take everything with a grain of salt. I don't believe the Mauritania government painting a perfectly safe picture, just as i don't take our governments travel warnings literally. Sometimes the foreign offices use the broadest red paintbrush they have on the country maps.

On another note, I found this article in Arabic about rumors with AQIM striking a deal with the Mauritanian government.

Found a English version too. Thought some of you might find it interesting.

http://reut.rs/1oMv6f0

In my post I stuck to areas in the North for a reason. It is my understanding that the situation in the South improved a lot and security is much better here in this region now than in 2012-2013. I would venture myself to Nema passing thru Ayoun if necessary and keeping my eyes and hears duly open. But I would consider it, ok, I would. I'm not so sure if I'd feel confortable enough to go thru Tichit to Oualata but I've never been to that region so I don't have a personal feeling. Nevertheless I wouldn't consider going east of Chingueti or even, maybe, Atar, depending on my feeling on the spot.


Even in the North?


There is a recurrent discussion in the nautical community about carrying weapons on board yachts on long passages or not. Laws and regulations are very different at sea and there are several countries where anyone can register a yacht which allow weapons on board private pleasure vessels. Also, the arrival at most countries worldwide, even if it isn't hassle free and require a lot of mambo-jambo, is possible with weapons on board provided that they are duly declared, at the latest, on arrival, something which is not possible overland. Now, I've always found myself on the pro-gun side. I'll explain why.

We may speak all night long, we may argue until hell freezes over. Bottom line: if you are armed and show unequivocally that you'll use lethal force not as a last resource when you're about to be boarded and realistically there isn't much to be done but as a regular line of defense when the bad guys are a quarter or a third of a mile from your ship, 99% of the time they will just turn around and look elsewhere for an easier prey. On land it's the same. If you shoot first, ask questions later, your chances of a safer passage increase a lot in these regions.

It's not a matter of going all Van Damme here or there. It's just giving oneself the best possible chance of departing from A and really, effectively arriving at B. Unsurprisingly someone close to me, some 4-5 years ago when the piracy in Somalia was going on at full steam, when invited for a trip from Hamburg to the Maldives by way of the Suez replied to the friend who invited him that he would do it only with me on board. This illustrates both my views on the subject, my mindset regarding allowing myself to be attacked and also what an added security to those around something like this can be. Please note that it's not just a matter of being duly armed as required by circumstances. It's that together with proper assessment of risks. After all the best defense is the one which in the end is not needed and most fights are not worth being bought, anyway. At the same time we can't lock ourselves in our bedroom for fear of something bad happening. So, one assesses risks, takes precautions to avoid trouble but if, in the end, the worst happens so, by all means, let's be ready for it.

Yeah a lot of people are saying Mauritania is pretty safe so this is encouraging. Seems border crossings is hard, especially with camels, however am looking in it further.

Also, what does "RIM" and "IMO" mean? I see it dotted everywhere and can't figure it out. Am coming out of my noobness :)

In the UK they call this 'The Silly Season'
 

Well, its a warm morning - no chance of frost today.

Nice fantasy, isn't it. I might see it working at sea against some guys in a nicely pressurised RIB.
In the Sahara, when two sand-smeared jeeps full of AK-equipped jihadists rock up out of the dark, you'd better flip into a well-trained killer, real quick! And with your undeclared arms you'd better hope they're bad guys, not some dressed-down special forces snooping about, as I read of in Egypt on time.

Just about all the kidnapped of the Sahara since 2003 were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It happens - less so now. If you think you need to travel overland with guns to feel safe, you're travelling in the wrong area. It's a big planet full of safe destinations and the risky areas in the Sahara are well known. SPOT trackers and the like can reassure those back home and have an SOS button, fwiw in the Sahara.
Having said that, I did ask a guy on a course which way the safety works on an AK. But I've forgotten already. It's either up or down. So despite my teenage aspirations and my annoyance at being kidnapped or robbed, I really wouldn't be much good, would I! Like most normal Sahara travellers, I suspect.

Forget Saharan borders Dan - they're an unnecessary complication, these days more than ever. The few recommended Saharan countries are way big enough to have a satisfying camel experience.

RIM = Rep. Islamic of Mauritania
IMO = in my opinion

RIM - Republique Islamique de Mauritanie
IMO - In my opinion

IMO, all this is good & well TODAY ... however as I've said before, tomorrow things may change (but I hope not!), always keep your ear to the ground!

If you contact me nearer the time you intend to go, I can ask my former colleagues there, I was working as a consultant to a government dept. and still have close ties

Certainly in the north, as far as Zouerat. You can go further, as dear Florence did a few years back http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...th-mauri-60924 but then you will be lonesome.

The division is not north/south but east/west. All the roads have frequent check points. Roads are in the west. In the east there are pistes and less control. I plan to go Chinguetti - Oualata as soon as I get the chance. And before they build a road.

And I concur with the Canadian president, for chrissakes leave your guns at home. Chances are you'll hit a friendly fisherman, a camel herder or a family member. Wont protect you from a dozen guys on a pickup or a Technical.
Stop that fantasy right now before you get someone hurt.

Perhaps there was some kind of deal, or not. What we know is that AQIM isnt much of a threat anymore. Nor are there any kidnappings. The problem now is the threat from cells or individuals or new groups that has lead to attacks in Ouaga, Cote d'Ivoire, Bamako, Marrakech, Hurghada.... Next could be Dakar, Accra, Nouakchott or just about anywhere. Paris, Brussels, Stockholm...which means there is little we can do except be vigilant when travelling.
The Olga Bogorad mentioned in the Reuter's article is a good source for correct and up to date information https://twitter.com/bogorad_olga

Pirates at sea don't wander around in nicely pressurized RHIBs. That would be too easy... although harder than you may think for hitting what you want to hit is not an easy task at all at sea. They move in very fast steel-hulled things, sometimes at speeds over 40 knots.


Chris, if you read my original post on the subject I wrote "let's also assume that...". I perfectly know that overland it is not legal to carry weapons. That's why I made it hypothetical to illustrate to Dan my reluctance in going to certain areas even if certain conditions were met.

The RPGs were on the list for a reason. They are a second line of defense precisely against motorized bad guys in jeeps. As a first line they are dubious due to their effective shooting range.


I've never traveled overland with weapons of my own, of course not. It can land you in jail very easily. For this reason there are places where I didn't venture but where I would had, maybe, if I had them.


It is a matter of personality. I've always liked guns and shooting. My first experience seeing an AK up and close and being explained about it was in Angola, in the early 1990s, when I was a teenager and was there visiting my father who lived there at a time. In a police checkpoint, while my father talked with one of the policemen, I had the other right in front of my window with his AK so I started asking him questions about it. He was very nice for it wasn't usual for him to have white kids asking him about his weapon so he made sure to explain all the details on the thing. Now, while I was at this, my father was getting uncomfortable by the second for he is one of those who, like you, doesn't care much about guns and much prefers not having them around. After we left he scolded me harshly and, after a few adventures of my own he ended up putting me on the first available plane back to Europe like if I was a parcel which can be shipped by DHL.

A gun in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, the damage it can do and all its intricacies is a very useful tool. In the hands of someone who thinks that it is just a matter of pulling the trigger and things happen on their own is a sure receipt for disaster for its owner.

Of course you won't hit a friendly fisherman or a camel herder or a nomad family. That is very unlikely to happen if you know what you are doing. People are not all that crazy and no one who really knows what a gun is shoots happily at any and everything that moves. First you assess, observe and only when satisfied that there is a real threat you defend yourself. A dozen guys driving fast at you in a pickup with guns showing qualifies as a threat. The objective then is to prevent them from getting too close.

And yes, in the proper hands it can defend you of a dozen bad guys on a pickup, even if your group is outnumbered two to one or maybe even worst. It depends on the particular circumstances. Not if you're alone and that's why I'd do it together with other like-minded friends and not alone.


On another note, I've ventured as far as Chingueti but back then my hosts found it dangerous to go from Atar to Chingueti overland so we did it by air. They didn't want to go further east even in an helicopter for, it seems, at the time Ouadane wasn't particularly safe for us to stay there for a few days. Regretfully. We also went to Zouerat but that was going and returning immediately after and it had been scheduled that way.

Those people who actually live and travel in insecure parts of the world have the right to do so without being "observed and assessed" at long range in the gunsights of some needy and ignorant gun loving tourist. "Shoot first and ask questions later." Really someone should take your passport away.

If some day you find yourself in dire need of assistance have no doubt. You'll be asking for those needy ignorant gun-loving guys to go risk their lives in order to save yours.

On another note, I didn't say that I would do any overland travel armed wherever in the world. As a matter of fact I specifically stated that I never traveled overland with weapons of my own. But I also said that I would venture to some places only if duly armed and after proper assessment of security conditions on the spot in an hypothetical case for it isn't realistic to do so at this moment. I believe I also mentioned that the best defense is the one which is never needed.

And, yes, have no doubt. If a threat is positively identified than it is really a matter of shooting first, asking questions later. Otherwise you'll be the loosing party. Piracy in Somalia coasts ended when this position was adopted both with weapons on board civilian ships and with the navies which gathered together to patrol the area. It became harder and harder for the bad guys to do whatever they used to do previously and they ultimately gave up. There remain some hot spots at sea, though, with the worst being the Strait of Malacca. It is finally in course of being solved, once more with strong armed action being used.

The problem with kidnappings is not solved by arming tourists. :rolleyes2:

A major reason the kidnappings have abated is the anti-terrorism policies adopted by the USA after 9/11 which has made it a lot harder to transfer and launder money. Such as Executive_Order_13224 and the Patriot Act.
W. Bush should get some cred for that! It has also had interesting side effects, like the arrest of FIFA officials. https://piie.com/blogs/realtime-econ...eenback-police
" US law grants American authorities the right to prosecute foreigners for activities criminal under US law even if such dollar-based financial flows (or say the use of an Internet server located in America) are the only connection to the United States. The reliance of foreign banks on US banks to supply dollars gives American authorities the extraterritorial reach needed to prosecute these cases."
When military force is needed let the proper authorities handle it.
This idea of increasing security by arming civilians doesn't belong in modern society. It is madness. Dont export it.

On this I tend to agree with you.

I'm all for people being armed and knowing how to defend themselves. The issue, however, is that people may be armed but not knowledgeable on how to defend themselves. Neither how to realistically assess risks nor how to use their weapons. And this poses a problem. You can't expect every tourist to be proficient in this kind of things so, for most, giving them a weapon is more troublesome than just allowing the poor soul to be kidnapped or robbed or whatever.

I'm with you here. You just don't solve the problem with arming tourists. Strong, muscled military interventions, though, are a much more appealing thing. International cooperation would be required for something like this, though.


This poses two sets of problems. First, they are not right next to you. When in trouble you need them right here, right now. But they can be several hours away so trusting on the proper authorities to assist when one needs is impractical. Second, and I'm not saying that this is the case in Mauritania and I believe it isn't, in some countries trusting the proper authorities can be worst than keeping them in the dark. It all depends on the specific country but the issue is not always so cut and dry like that.


If it works and already showed that it works with piracy at sea why not giving it a try? Belonging to modern society or not is irrelevant. If it works, why not? Do you know that no armed ship has been successfully attacked by pirates?

It's interesting that this has gone down a piracy and gun route, personal safety is very important. With no experience in these countries I can see the reason for carrying a gun to defend, but like Chris said, if you feel you need a gun you're in the wrong place. That logic can be translated to any country... Perhaps I should avoid the southern states and run down areas of the USA too? I know this is stereotype, but they feel they need guns to protect themselves too, so the same logic can be applied?

It has been a very steep learning curve hearing from all of you, and the common thread is 'border crossings are a pain in the ass' and 'don't go to Southern Algeria'. I have taken heed of your advice and have been flirting with another route, I will ask more about it later once I have something solid. It's the other side of the continent... Sudan to Egypt, yes I know it has a border crossing, but from the research I've done so far it seems waaaaay easier than any other crossing. And Sudan and Egypt seem waaaay safer than my previous route (I don't plan to go anywhere near the south of Sudan).

Before I ask anything about it or make a new thread I want to research as much as possible, and I'm getting info from people on the ground there. I firmly believe this can happen as travel across the black and white deserts is open, the border is open and safety is a much smaller (although real) factor. I want to get off the main road a bit, so when my maps arrive I can start planning a route, and once I've read Chris's Sahara Overland Travel Guide & Sahara Camel Trekking, plus a few others I will have a better grip of it.

By all means keep the conversation going, but I'm no longer planning a trip from Mauritania to Algeria. Thanks everyone for all the amazing advice, what a great community here! I check these forums everyday for new threads and posts, and I'll probably be adding another of my own sometime soon.

Dan, I'm interested in joining you on this trip. I can't seem to message you directly on here but if you have Facebook add me on there and let's talk - Lubo Falcon is my name on there.

Hi Lubo,

I added you but I'm not 100% it is you. Let me know if you didn't get the invite.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan. Make sure you take plenty of water.

Is this thread a wind-up?

Hey! Is this thread still going?
Im thinking of crossig the Algerian part of Sahara.
Anyone else with the same idea? :)

You can certainly do a couple of weeks in the usual areas – right now probably Djanet/Tasilli is easiest. Better to start that way unless you know what you're taking on.
Anything beyond the duration of a visa or in certain regions will not be possible.
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