Unpaid US ticket- problem for UK citizen?
 

I somehow managed to recently get a ticket from a Park Ranger in the north rim Grand Canyon campground, Arizona of all places for going through a 'Stop' sign. Anyway, the cop took my passport number in addition to all the usual bike details.

So I was planning on writing to the address on the back of the ticket to contest it, being a daft tourist (why do you have to stop if there is nothing else coming?? How long do you have to stop for while waiting for nothing to drive past etc). The ticket is for $75 so thats quite a big dent in my travel budget.

Anyway, I'm in Utah now and heading up to Canada next via the Rockies, then Alaska so does anybody know what the likely ramifiactions would be if I just ignore it?

The easy thing to do is to go to the court house listed on the ticket and try and negotiate it down. But now that you are gone the easiest thing is to pay it.
They will not hunt you down but if you should go back to Arizona and be stopped by the police it will cost you much more than the original ticket.

(Caution sarcasm is turned on)
You will not find many roundabouts in the western US and you must stop at stop signs and red lights. You can not go through the red light because it about to turn green, you must wait until it is green.

Speeding will also get you a ticket and they usually cost more than stop sign tickets. Speeding 20 MPH over the speed limit will cost you a lot and may have a must appear in court summons. Over 100 MPH they may take you to jail.

Mike:

Considering the way the Americans are now, what with all the data collection for the Patriot Act, the no-fly list, and all that stuff, I think it might be best if you just pay the ticket.

Otherwise, next time you visit the USA, go through a passport check, or get stopped by a cop anywhere, the ticket could come back to haunt you.

10 years ago, I would have said 'forget it' - but America is not the same place as it was 10 years ago.

Michael

In the USA, when on a motorcycle, it is not a legal stop unless you put your foot down. And you must do it for all stop signs and red lights. If there is no other traffic you may immediately go again, but you must stop. Now does every American do that, no way, but that is the law.

If you do not pay the ticket, or at least write the court a letter explaining your situation, you probably will NOT get into Alaska. With today's computer systems, and the US's paranoia, they will probably stop you at the border and turn you back as an undesirable.

My suggestion would be to write the court a letter describing who you are, what you're doing, and try to think of a reasonable reason (My bike has a kilometer speedometer and I was looking at the mph speed on my GPS trying to stay in the speed limit and didn't see the sign.) that you can include as to why you didn't stop. Be humble and ask to have the fine reduced or dismissed. (I did that once to a court that was 700 miles from home and got it dismissed, even though I was guilty.) If you have no address for a return letter, tell them, and tell them you will call and check on it on a certain date. Then do it, you will need to know the result for your future plans. The simplest and surest solution would be to pay the ticket. You may have to pay something even if you write to them, but it almost surely will be a reduced amount.

Don't ask the court why you must stop when there is no traffic, the reason is clear, the law says to. They may think you're trying to be funny and American courts seldom have a sense of humor.

I know from experience that in some countries, like Mexico, that the drivers treat stop signs as an optional nuisance, but that doesn't work in the US.

Good Luck and Ride Safe.

Grrr, I suppose I'll just pay it to keep the peace. You're right about the cops having no sence of humour though, must be specially trained I think.

Unfortunately, you are correct. Especially Park "Police". I got my last ticket, Crossing a Double Yellow Line, whilst going around a mini-van that was oohing and aahing a buffalo. Seen one buffalo, you pretty much seen them all in my book. The dangerous 20 mile per hour pass (that was my total speed) cost me $150. Unbelievable.

tickets
 

If it helps and I dought it will ,try to think of your tickets as a form of rent. We all have to pay to use stuff. $75 to rent the U.S.A. is a bargain, don't you agree?
The trick now is to avoid paying more than it's worth to you.I have devoped an internal cop radar that when I tune in helps me avoid all but speeding tickets in the last several years. Good luck on your trip and remember to watch your back.

In 2002 I got a speeding ticket in Northern California which I chose to ignore. In 2006 I returned to the US for another extended trip and this unpaid ticket was always at the back of my mind. I checked up and discovered that such minor misdemenours are statewide only and don't cover the entire country as in the UK. I also passed through customs/immigration with all of the extensive checks there are these days when entering the US and nothing cropped up. During my three month, 15,000 ride around the US, I wasn't stopped. So it's up to you. Should you return to AZ in the future, the risk is there should you get stopped again.

As for failing to stop at a Stop sign, I couldn't see the logic of that either. If there was a Stop sign at a junction in the middle of the Mojave Desert, for instance, and you had a perfect view for a mile in any direction, what is the commonsense in having to stop? Again I was lucky there. When leaving Los Angeles early one morning, the low sun caused me to miss at least three Stop signs. Fortunately there was almost no traffic around in the suburbs and no Police either.

Paul, Paul, Paul....
STOP means.... STOP !,
I know, in Europe there are fewer stop signs and mostly Yield signs and the rules of priority to vehicles coming from the right ... unless you are on a road with priority. Stopping is optional. And crashes are common.
This side of the pond crashes are , sadly , no less uncommon. But the rule on STOP signs is ironclad. - Red octagon Stop sign , you come to a full 100% standstill, look both ways to check traffic or if if there is any and only then proceed if it is safe. You only need to stop for a second or two to do this, doesn't delay you at all.
I have a personal experience with this from the wrong side- some woman in a van decided that she was special , hauling a bunch of kids around so she decided she did not need to stop and drove right in front of me on my XL600. Sent me flying after I clipped the rear end of her Dodge. Lucky for me m body didn't make contact with it and I just wound up down the road with a bunch of scrapes and a gashed knee.
STOP STOP STOP.!!!!
There are far too many people ignoring stop signs and every day the papers cary stories about them killing other innocent drivers. If they want to kill themselves I say let them , but dont kill others.

Sjoerd

Please read my second paragraph again. IF, and I said IF, there are perfect views in all directions, it's simply not logical to stop even if the sign tells you to. I'm not talking about a situation whereby you take a risk and put someones life in danger. You say stop means stop, but if it's perfectly clear that everything is safe, I ride on. After forty years in the saddle and twenty years in the local constabulary, it seems to work for me.

Paul

No offence intended Paul, my little rant was just feulled by a flasback, I threw some cold water in my face and everything was back to normal and I went at my work. Now , at coffee break I can explicate a bit more.
I agree there are too many stop signs in North America and it is getting worse because people see the placement of Stop signs as a "traffic calming " measure in cities and suburbs. All over the US and CAnada there are too many four way stops put in , with the result that drivers speed more between to make up time. Also all the new shopping plazas plop Stop signs willy nilly over their parking lot lanes where highway traffic laws are not in effect.. The result is devaluation of the Stop sign's meaning . People now see is as an optional decision.
Then on the higways they make this sloppy decision and kill someone else, and the standard excuse is always ...I didn't see him. Add too the fact that incredibly many drivers are not really fit to be on the road and distracted by talking on cell phones, eatin g and drinking behind the wheel.Most of them over here use automatic transmissions and it is sooooo easy for them to just bump the brake pedal a bit to change speed down, glance sideways maybe and let off, the cars never stop.You as a policeman will have sharp observational skills drilled in but most drivers are not alert.
Any day now I expect to read a news report where a driver accused of crashing into another vehicle after running a Stop sign will claim he is innocent because he was watching his GPS hi-def video screen for the route he was following and on screen it informed him there was no traffic worth stoppng for.
As motorcyclists we will always be on the losing end in such collisions. Sadly I am seeing increasing numbers of motorcyclists ignoring Stop
signs too, have actually had to take evasive moves on my bike to avoid one. They are transferring their sloppy car habits to their bike riding.
All the best and ride safe.

In the case of MikeS not stopping at the stop sign, it was not safe, there was someone there. The policeman.

Sjoerd
No offense taken. You live over there so see incidents regularly, no doubt, and I was just a visitor. Incidentally, as a Brit and a retired bobby, there are some strange (to me) laws in the US. Filtering (or lane splitting) we've already mentioned. This is accepted everywhere over here although the speed some riders filter at is mind bogglingly stupid and dangerous. Helmet wearing is compulsory here yet many US states don't require them. Some states don't even require riders to have insurance, nor any basic training or L-plates. Amazing. Imagine a 16yr old going out on a powerful sports bike, yet having no training or experience. For the ultimate in danger, I've just come back from the Isle of Man TT Races. The place was filled with German sports bike riders going hell for leather over the Mountain - and these were just the fans!

Hi Paul:

What you say makes perfect sense to you, because it reflects the commonly held beliefs of the country that you live in and the country that you served as a police constable. However, despite the fact that I agree entirely with the logic of your statement, that ain't how it works in North America (both Canada and the USA). If you are driving across the middle of no-where at 0300 in the morning on Christmas Day, not a soul on the road anywhere, and there is a stop sign, you are expected to stop at it. If you fail to stop and a policeman sees you, he will give you a ticket because (according to the norms of North America), you are breaking the law and showing disrespect for the traffic rules.

Even the most thoughtful, most well-educated, and most philosophical policeman would (at a minimum) stop you and say 'Hey, buddy, you and I both know there is not a soul around, but stop means stop, it's non-negotiable, so don't do that again, OK?'

Different countries, different norms. Fully 90% of the stop signs in North America are totally un-necessary - they could be replaced with yield signs - but the norms of the cultures are such that if the sign says stop, you are expected to stop.

If I haven't quite explained this well to this point, consider this example: As you know from your time in Canada and the USA, it's perfectly acceptable to pass on the right (kerbside) of other traffic on a multi-lane roadway - everyone does it all the time. I mean, if someone is loafing in the farside lane, but the nearside lane is clear, you just change lanes and pass them on the kerbside. Now, if I were to do that in the UK, would I be stopped by the police? You bet I would. And if I explained my perfect logic to the policeman as follows: "The other guy was loafing in the farside lane, and the nearside lane was empty, so I just passed on the nearside - makes perfect sense", do you think the policeman would agree with me? Not bloody likely. :)

Michael

If I haven't quite explained this well to this point, consider this example: As you know from your time in Canada and the USA, it's perfectly acceptable to pass on the right (kerbside) of other traffic on a multi-lane roadway - everyone does it all the time. I mean, if someone is loafing in the farside lane, but the nearside lane is clear, you just change lanes and pass them on the kerbside. Now, if I were to do that in the UK, would I be stopped by the police? You bet I would. And if I explained my perfect logic to the policeman as follows: "The other guy was loafing in the farside lane, and the nearside lane was empty, so I just passed on the nearside - makes perfect sense", do you think the policeman would agree with me? Not bloody likely. :)

Michael
We call it 'undertaking' here and it's not illegal. I do it a lot on motorways when someone is hogging the central lane. It only becomes an offence if it's done in a dangerous manner.
As for your earlier example all I can say is that if logic suggests that it's daft to come to a complete stop when it's not necessary, such as in the middle of nowhere with clear views in all directions, we don't. I can think of one exception and that is crossing over solid white lines in the middle of the road, one of my former favourite ticketing offences. These are put there to keep opposing traffic apart and to me are 'set in stone'.
We've not heard much from you lately in 'the other place'.
Regards
Paul

Hi Paul:

Ah, you have identified a perfect example of 'norms and customs' differences - that is a far better example than the one I picked (undertaking). In most provinces of Canada, the legislation respecting passing other vehicles (the solid line) states that the motorist may only pass "when it is safe to do so", and the lines painted on the roadways are there to provide guidance, not regulation. There is no legislation of any kind that says "you can't cross a solid line".

Thus, if you passed another vehicle by crossing over a solid line and there were no other vehicles present or coming at you in the other direction, it would be impossible to be convicted of unsafe passing.

As for the 'other place' - I've been kind of busy lately, it's tough for me to handle more than one or two forums.

Michael

Just to clear things up for anyone thinking it is legal to undertake, I have copied this from the UK Highway Code:
Quote: 242: Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake. Unquote.
Undertaking (even sounds dangerous:helpsmilie: ) is not something I would do, other than in the quoted circumstances above, ie: heavy taffic. Even then it would be done with EXTREME caution:thumbup1: Most car drivers in this country can't see a bike in front of them, let alone one coming up the (wrong) side of them:eek3: If you are seen performing this manouvre by a traffic cop in anything other than the quoted circumstances, he/she will prosecute you:hang: If I'm in such a rush, I'm late:mchappy:
Quote from here: The Highway Code



Trophymick

TrophyMick

You are quoting from the Highway Code and what they give is ADVICE, it is not LAW. I'll repeat myself, there is no offence of 'undertaking', none at all, any more than there is an offence of 'filtering'. The only offences which might be committed is that of driving without due car & attention or dangerous/reckless/careless driving, and if the undertake is carried out properly and safely, neither of these can be applied. Of course there's always a risk that the vehicle being overtaken will pull over but then I've had plenty of drivers pull over on me when passing to the right of them. For part of my former career, I was a Traffic Officer and I believe my driving/riding is of a very high standard, and I simply don't do things on the road which puts the lives of me/my passengers/other road users at risk. As I said before, I undertake often when approaching middle lane hoggers who just bimble along completely oblivious to what they are doing. It keeps them out of the lefthand lane and the lorries, and the righthand lane with the fast traffic. They feel safe (if a little deluded).

I'll repeat myself as well then:thumbup1: It is still a manouvre that is dangerous, whether it is a 'YOU MUST NOT' rule or not, it is advisory, and for good reason. And if a driver takes you out whilst you are performing such a manouvre, he will be in the right, in the eyes of the law, try it and see:clap: You (as you yourself state) are leaving yourself open to a charge of driving without due care and attention or worse, and to propegate that it is a perfectly legal and safe manouvre is wrong, especially on a forum that includes riders/drivers from other countries, that may not be fully aware of our laws:nono: I am a member of the IAM and I was trained by police officers (motorcycle), but this does not make me invincable, but even more aware of potential dangers:mchappy:
I will continue to do it my way (safe IMHO), and you no doubt will continue to do it your way, but be careful out there:cool4:

Trophymick

I stopped reading most of this thread awhile ago, but to the point of the rider that received a ticket in Arizona, I wouldn't worry about it. I live in Colorado, and receive an occasional ticket. I do pay them, but at times I've forgotten about one in another state and I get a letter in the mail telling me I have to pay it or I will get arrested next time I'm in that state. I received this letter about two months after I forgot to pay the ticket. And the letter said I still had a month to pay it. So unless you're going to be taking your time (and why not) accross North America, Alaska isn't going to know or care by the time you get there.

With regards to safety means stopping at a stop sign, sometimes, I feel like it's safer for ME, as a rider, to not stop at a stop sign. Moving is better on a motorcylcle in most places, and if ME being as safe as I can be on the road means the occasional ticket, then it's worth it. So I'm going to accellerate through someone's blind spot when I pass, and if I get a ticket then so be it. Most cops I've dealt with understand a motorcycle riders plight, and cut a lot of us some slack. Girlfriend is here. Gotta go. See you in Silverton, CO I hope.

Love the site, it's inspiring.

"and to propegate that it is a perfectly legal and safe manouvre is wrong"

Well it IS legal but as for SAFE, well motorcycle riding isn't safe anyway. Sometimes I think we must all be mugs for relying on two small pieces of rubber on the road to keep us safe. But we just love riding, don't we? I think we must agree to disagree on this point. And I haven't even mentioned tailgaters here ;-) Ride safe friend.

Phew, lot of debate going on here still! Haven't found a pc for a while though. Well I figure I'll just forget to pay and see how it pans out.

BTW, I was in 1st gear and crawling though that campsite junction but now I know I have to actually stop at Stop signs even when there's no other traffic about. Well most of the time anyway...

Please keep us posted when you get a chance, it will be interesting to hear what happens (if anything) at the Alaskan border.

You can never tell what might happen - probably nothing .
But a guy I worked with cannot travel through the US from Canada to Mexico [he has a second home there and used to drive down every winter ].
His "crime" was to not declare a half bottle of wine that was in the fridge of his travel trailer as he crossed from Mexico to the US .
Another fella I know cannot visit the US because of drink/driving conviction .

Here is my take on it. You chose to break the law and got caught. Argue all you want but that is they way it is. If you choose to nnot pay the fine and are barred from the US you really can't complain.

As for what you do at home isn't relevant. When in rome do as the romans. I am sure if I was in the UK and drove on the right side and my excuse was, thats what we do at home you would not appreciate it. Pay the fine and own up to your choice. Otherwise it can make a miner inciden a major one.

Is this because of his successful jail-break after a DUI arrest in the US or a conviction in his homeland? :)

Also, there must be more to the Wine Saga. Was it Thunderbird or Strawberry Hill?

[QUOTE=ekaphoto;142191].........Pay the fine and own up to your choice...........QUOTE]

Now that's a true buzz-kill right there. :)

Is it OK to break laws, your choice?
Is breaking laws only a problem when you are caught?

Drink driving offence was in Canada ,no jailbreaks or naughty business ,he was just caught fair and square drunk driving . The guy is an idiot anyway and deserved what he got.

The wine offence was an older guy ,now retired . Not a loudmouth nor a redneck .Maybe there was something else going on ,I wasn't there. If he had crossed at a quieter crossing maybe he would have been OK .I dunno but I know he was extremely pissed off about it and the border guards acted like jerks apparently .
I don't understand the Thunderbird or Strawberry Hill part - please enlighten me .

Canada and the US "share" criminal record info , if you've got a record the border guards can find you in their database .

Twas meant to be a smile/joke.
They're some of the dirt-cheap 'vintages' - cheap teenager and skidrow stuff.

We had discussed US tickets on another forum where the guy had ran at 100 mph+ and had to pay something like $800 US. It sounds as though you had budgeted day by day when you mentioned that $75 would put a dent in your budget, but that is a fairly cheap ticket for the US. Its up to you to pay it, but compared to some of the fines out there, or the bribes in those countries that others have had to pay bribes, $75 would be a comparatively smaller fine.

Ha ha ,well the guy is hardly a wine connoisseur so maybe you are right !

Just thinking about the amount of the fine -- 75 bucks won't even get you a motel for the night around here , I was at a couple of bike shops the other day KTM $102/hr ,Kawi $92/hr labour charge .That kind of puts it in perspective .

Don't forget the Boone's! Real high class wine-ish drink...

My education is obviously lacking !

Strawberry Hill is from the Vineyards de Boone, along with Apple and a few other chioce grapes. They usually age their fine wines, such as these, for many minutes. Another trademark is this winery is it's use of convenient screw top bottle closures, insuring freshness.

When their wines are forcefully expelled from the human stomach onto a lawn, the grass does not die. As a young lad very interested in unusual chemistry, I performed some interesting tests.

Did we go to the same university?

Four Way Stop
 

Why stop at a four way stop - heck, let the other three drivers will stop!

Just kidding.

Spoken like a true Californian...LOL (the origin of the infamous "California roll")

I think we assumed you got the joke about the cheap wines. The drinks mentioned are ultra cheap liquors that are very popular in places like the skid rows of America, or college students who need to get drunk but can't afford enough beer to do the job.

Drinky poos
 

Canucks don't drink sherry [much]
At a friend's party the hostess was distracted as she was serving drinks ,when she returned a couple of "rustics" had poured themselves a sherry -half pint glasses full of Harveys Bristol Cream and ice !
Very unusual .