Why anyone would buy one of these when they could have a Honda CB500X with the Rally Raid 3 kit for less money is beyond me.

With those mods the CB500x ends up somewhat like the BMW 700GS, similar suspension travel and similar 19/17" wheel diameter. Personally I'd rather have the GP450's 21" front wheel and longer travel suspension.

Also not keen on DIY jobs to massively change a bike's characteristics, it raises eyebrows with insurance companies and you never get the secondhand resale value of all the extras from a standard bike.

These are great points bier ... and ones I was not aware of.

At first I thought you were crackers regards weight and suspension travel similarities between the 700GS and kitted CB500X. Lo and behold you are spot on ... they end up very close in most every category. (BMW being a bit top heavy if I remember my test riding) BMW has more power, still returns great economy.
CB500 may have the edge in long term reliability .. Dunno for sure. :innocent:

The Rally kitted CB500X still has about a $2000 USD price advantage over the BMW 700GS ($10K USD) ... but I'm thinking the BMW is the better road bike, packs up better for travel, will have better re-sale and better warranty. Trade offs. :innocent:

But I agree, neither are (IMHO) great for technical trail use unless you are long legged, strong and an expert rider. Here the CCM wins the day every time. But a well kitted/modded DRZ400S is nearly as good for half the price ... not to mention ...

Current KTM and Husqvarna dual sport bikes are also in the $10K USD area. (I think the CCM is about 12K USD?) Much as I'd appreciate them ALL in tough off road situations, I don't consider any of them as ideal travel bikes. But HORSES for COURSES ... what works for Walter Colebatch may not work for everyone.
I don't need a race bike for travel.

I like cheap, cheerful, indestructible and ... EXPENDABLE! :thumbup1:

Compared to the BMW F700GS, the Honda will have far better fuel economy, better reliability and is cheaper even with the conversion kit; insurance here (N America) is not an issue and resale is higher due to the conversion.

Total no-brainer in my book, but you pays your money and you makes your choice.

Cash isn't always king
 

Maybe they actually like the GP450; maybe after taking a test ride even?

Possible, I suppose. Vide supra.

CCM will still be at the stage of being able to sell every GP450 that they make; it could be a case of "manufacturing bikes to order", manufacturing them at a rate to match the orders.

Meanwhile, their marketing is low key - all to the good; they can concentrate on building bikes and not spending the budget on marketing hype.
CCM GP450 Adventure Motorcycle | eBay

Low key ads on ebay UK and test rides at biking events will keep the UK orders coming in for the time being and they have their overseas market also.

$12,000 for a single and not one blessed with reputation for reliability, either.

I could buy a CB500X + the Rally Raid 3 kit and do a six month trip for that money

Insane.

Current exchange rates mean that you won't be seeing many GP450s in the USA for the foreseeable future.
But, they will sell elsewhere.

As for the Honda, it's not really in the same game - here in the UK it is a learner's bike aimed at those who buy their first bike to obtain a licence, learn to ride and move on to another machine - all Honda marketing for the 500x is aimed in that way.
It's an esotheric interest to "change it's clothes".
Naturally, it has the budget suspension of most cheap bikes.
As per an earlier posting here, only a minority would want to buy a cheap brand new bike, dismantle major components, throw them away and buy more bits and pieces to turn that bike into a heavy weight "trail" bike.
Granted, some folks will do this with second hand 500x once the initial depreciation of the cheap bike has reduced it's value even more.

But, anyway, there's room for eveyone and we are all waiting for Yamaha to produce some more competition soon, probably fitted with budget suspension.

Again, with reference to earlier posts, one is homologated for sale straight out of the box whereas heavily modified bikes are "frowned upon" by European insurers; some insurers may decline your business.
Not that a GP450 would spend much of it's life wrapped in a box.

As for resale, it's pretty much dead money to buy a lot of after market stuff; often, the best that can be done is to dismantle what you previously assembled (more unpaid labour) and sell the bits to those who already own that type of bike, while refitting the original bits (that you carefully stored rather than throw them in the skip) and move the bike on for sale as a standard machine; in the case of the CB500x, as a standard learner bike.

That's a good approach for re-sale. But a seller of the kitted CB500X could most likely find someone to buy the kitted bike. Maybe not for great money, but it would sell. But if trading in, putting it back to standard is best, as you've stated.

The Honda may be a learner's bike ... but it's (apparently) a very good one ... this according to several reviews I've read. And of course Jenny Mo is over the Moon about her kitted bike. Have you read her reports? Pretty impressive. But vested interest and all ... still ... she makes some good points.

But as has been said, the CB500X vs. CCM are Apples and Oranges really.

I don't need a race bike for travel ... but lots of riders DO ... they want a high performance, light weight machine for mega off road adventures.
:thumbup1:It's ALL GOOD!
bier

Yes, I have read that thread.
Sponsorship means that I put little value on her comments but it does illustrate what a good rider can do with a heavy, average machine.

Apart from that, I could not discern an advantage over, say, a F650GS (which I used to ride a few years ago). The latter has the smoothest single cylinder engine that I have yet ridden, and it can still be purchased new in the form of the G650GS (as a Sertao for instance).

But all pretty much :offtopic: from the GP450 other than the similar BMW logos on the engine castings.

The only thing that depreciates faster than a CCM is fresh fish.

Sent from my G7-L01 using Tapatalk

CB500X is:
- smoother
- more reliable
- more economical
- faster
- Japanese
- easier to work on
and that's just for starters..... and also applies to comparison with the CCM, which appears to get the same gas mileage as my V-strom 650 and weighs almost the same, which negates the point of its existence IMHO.

A quick investigation on the world’s favourite search engine came up with the following claimed weights:

V strom 650: 220kg (wet)
Cb500x 178kg (dry)
Ccm gp450: 125.5kg (wet?, dry?, averagely damp?: don’t know, as I didn’t bother clicking on the link. Things to do, people to see, places to go etc.)

I was starting to wonder which CCM GP450 is the subject of this thread.

On the basis that "a litre of water's a pint and 3/4 and a pound and a half of jam is slightly more than 1/2 Kg" then two GP450s weigh somewhat more than one V Strom.

Incidentally, CCMs own website claim 130 Kg for the weight factor - I guess they should know (but I still don't know if that is wet or dry even after a shower of rain in Bolton).

GP450 has been on show
 

From reading elsewhere, they have been seen at motorbike shows in Canada and homogolation for north America is planned; sometime - don't hold your breath as that process seems to be as much about politics, trade restrictions and import tariffs as any other aspect.

For anyone who hasn't actually seen one of these in the metal; the pictures can't convey the design and production standards of the bespoke manufacturing process. Hopefully, the latter will continue.

At least part of the reason CCM may be late bringing the GP450 to USA is that homologation (even for small manufacturer) is around $100,000 USD per model. (The Japanese, BMW, KTM pay even more)

Not a fortune but even some Japanese OEM's balk at this fee. It's also a long, absurdly complex process that requires expert lawyers to navigate the loads of regulation, restrictions and requirements put up as road blocks by US Govt EPA, DOT.

The Japanese employ WHOLE departments to deal with Homologation of new models, which they use all the time. The Japanese and Euro OEM's have greased the skids and can get it done. They are good at it ... but took decades to get where they are now.

But for a small manufacture without DEEP pockets (and connections in high places) it's a daunting process.

This info from USA distributor I spoke with from Husaberg/KTM when they were thinking about bringing in street legal dual sport Husaberg bikes into USA in around 2005, they decided NOT to go through the process and only brought Husabergs in as dirt bikes (race bikes) which is far easier to do.

Lots more to this but won't bore everyone with details. LOTS OF THEM!
doh

Guess the weight is a lot less than the other bikes. Why, then, the poor gas mileage from the CCM (about the same as my 650 V-strom)? And a lot less than the CB500X which has the same engine displacement and more weight?

Still not a compelling buy for me given the type of riding I do on long trips....

In the absence of recent riding reports for the GP450, here's a comparison review of nearly two years ago.
http://ccm-motorcycles.com/_includes...ews-Review.pdf

Reading the summary, it is fairly easy to see where the manufacturer's asking price has been spent, particularly on the quoted kerb weight and the suspension specification.

Yep, it's still not everyones' cup of tea, but they are meant to be making just a few hundred per year so that won't be a factor to CCM.

The thing is though. It doesn't ride better than a DRZ400. Better fuel economy due to fuel injection is all I can see. I can't see any reason for buying one as there are two bikes in every category which are better and half the price. CCM had a chance to provide something everyone had been crying out for for years. Instead they obviously interviewed some idiots in front of Starbucks and built something which is a bit pointless which no one is going to want to shell out for.

Unless their strategy is just to sell it as 'something different' to people with deep pockets for a few years.


Why can't someone make a Japanese 500-650CC Single cylinder bike with a steel frame, simple electrics and fuel injection. Good suspension with good wheels, a comfortable seat, good lights and a small cockpit with a realistic screen.

Imagine a lightweight 660 Tenere with good suspension ??

Or a KTM 690 adventure which you could trust not to be a headache.

Surely the market is out there for someone. These bikes were super popular in the 80's and 90's even in their basic form.

But then came Starbucks and ruined it for everyone.

Best bet now is the WR300R.

Yea, CCM's market research obviously aimed towards high end of RTW travelers. I'm sure guys like Colebatch, Pyndon (Lyndon Poskett) and a handful of other royal family members love the CCM, and can afford it. :innocent:

These wanna-be Dakar racers ride to Mongolia like it's a rally. To each his own. Pyndon & Colebatch are both skilled fabricators and designers, both their business's are spin offs from their travel adventure fame created on the internet. :rofl:

Both have legions of Leg Humper followers on ADV Rider. Pyndon and Colebatch fabricate modified BMW's and KTM 690's that end up costing in the £20,000 range. (New Sibirsky Extreme bike build | Adventure Rider)

So, the CCM is reasonable by comparison. Colebatch builds bikes for himself, Pyndon sells to actual Dakar racers and well off "enthusiasts".

Whomever CCM consulted for inspiration/knowledge ... IMO, they've aimed at a rather limited, affluent group. Many young travelers starting out would want something cheap as chips, don't care if it's of race pedigree. They don't even care if it breaks down. All part of the adventure and all. Most aren't rally racers.

But I'm not sure anyone could build a bike in Britain for much less than CCM has, using quality components. After all, so much of what we see today is made in either Thailand, Korea or China. It may say Made In Japan, but the Japanese now source TONS of parts from China and produce many models in Thailand and Korea.

It's true the CCM motor wears a BMW badge, but is originally a Rotax design that has always been manufactured in Taiwan by Kymco. Kymco make Excellent products.

Obviously, with BMW's abrupt cancellation of the 450 race bike, Kymco/BMW were left with possibly thousands of 450 engines stuck in a warehouse somewhere. I would love to hear insiders story on this and what sort of deal CCM got on the Engines. Pennies on the pound? :innocent:

But the rest of the bike is NOT going to be cheap. Can't be. No way can a tiny producer match costs/volumes and selling prices with big manufacturers.

So YES ... the CCM is expensive. But I understand why and don't believe they are ripping anyone off ... and probably just treading water at this point. I hope they survive!

What's worrisome is the limited scope/focus of the GP450 as it seems a bit limited as a versatile overall world travel machine.

Yes, I think you've hit on it there.

It's possible Honda will come out with a "CRF450L" or some such ... or Yamaha a "WR450R", but both would no doubt need lots of Mods to make good travel bikes. The Japanese will never produce a "ready to go" RTW type travel bike.
It would always need mods.

As of now, most end up making their own version of the above using an old tech bike like my DR650 or a XR650L, KLR or XT600 or 660. Not so bad really.
It's a cheap way to go and plenty of good donor bikes around.

DRZ400S is a good example. For a couple grand in mods its nearly as good as a KTM or CCM ... and probably more reliable down the road.

bier

To be fair, Lyndon is an actual Dakar racer. His best result was a stage 9th in the 2013 Dakar. On top of that a 1st place overall in the Mongolia rally and a 2nd overall in the Baja Rally.

New apples compared with old pears
 

:rofl:
Postings still talking about bikes that have not been on sale, new, in the EU market for some 8-10-12 years.

The EU market is probably big enough for current CCM GP450 rates of production but, yes, it will be offered into certain markets such as north America - if I am right in this thought about rates of production then there is no need to be in a hurry to break into new sales elsewhere.

At least the linked article compares 3 bikes that are for sale as new, current models; and from two of the big 4 Jap manufs favoured by many.

Why not compare the GP450 with a new KTM Freeride or .......................your own choice of currently available new bike?
(e.g. AJP "whatever" for instance).

Incidentally, CCM have remained in business this time around, via:-
CCM Motorcycles Parts GP4S0 adventure Dakar Crossers mt230 ATV Racing Scramble Bikes

Bespoke: means something like "lithe, flexible, responsive to customers' needs, designed to order"? I don't know, I haven't bothered to check the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary, but, for sure, the CCM business model is not based on a mass production line in a factory knocking out UJMs by the multi-1000.

New bike comparison
 

Alternately, when you rely on focus groups and other market research you get a new Honda AT.
I've just posted the link to the Honda marketing hype here:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...6-8#post518208

Shucks, here it is:
Honda Worldwide | October 16, 2015 "16YM HONDA CRF1000L Africa Twin"


The GP450 should do pretty well when the testers get around to writing a comparison of it with the CRF1000L in place of the CRF250L.

Not to take cred from Lyndon ... reference is more to the buyers of such bikes who are NOT actual racers ... and for all we know won't go beyond Starbuck's.

46th place in the 2013 Dakar rally is certainly impressive. No question a great rider. Great finish in the Baja rally too getting 2nd behind Hengeveld (former Team Honda Hero, multiple Baja 1000 winner, now at retirement age)
I wonder if Lyndon will enter the Baja 1000? (the real Baja race!)

Big entry fee for that rally ($2,100). He must have generous sponsors. :thumbup1:

Point is, Lyndon's meticulously prepped KTM racers as a travel bike is not for everyone ... not for me, even if I could afford it ... all that Dakar stuff just looks silly ... unless you ARE a racer going racing! (road book, GPS holder, multiple tanks) Overkill IMO.
But it's a big world! All kinds hit the road, from guys doing "NO budget" trips on a 100cc Postie bike ... to Trust Fund kits going Carte Blanche. There's room for everyone. My favorite guys ride around in a $400K UniMog campers ... they always have cold beer on board!

There's an interesting thread on AdvRider from a British guy riding the US TAT (Trans America Trail) on a GP450. He sounds an average sort of rider rather than an off road god, and talks honestly about some of the problems he encountered.

I was one of the many that CCM spoke to as part of their market research. One of my suggestions (and maybe from others as well) was the stealth tool tube which ended up as the rather expensive false silencer. One suggestion of mine which wasn't acted upon was a wider ratio gearbox and minkyhead from ABR has done some work changing internal ratios.

I did have a test ride eventually but it was a bit disorganised, the accompanying 'guide' rider didn't know the area, so it was on tarmac with the exception of a couple of hundred metres down a lane. So I ended up buying a second KTM 690 Enduro which has proved ultra reliable.

Homologation
 

Going back a few pages to the US homologation comments, I'm a former brake homologation engineer and would comment as follows;

The regs are fundanentally different. Any rest of the world data is useless so you need to employ locals.

There are components you have to change which means cartel pricing for which a small European manufacturer is painful.

Septic lawyers are scary and highly prevalent. As you mostly self certify you stand alone, no government agencies in self defence mode.

I wouldn't sell paperclips in California in case someone choked on them. CCM would be wise to fill other markets first.

Andy

My memory of that thread is that he had a mechanical failure and he rang the factory here in the UK; they responded and air freighted a replacement part to him in the States.
In essence, CCM were listening to one of their customers and supported him during his ride - that appears to be a "bespoke" service.

He has also had some form of electrical issue(s) which may have fried one or more battteries.
Perhaps a loose/bad electrical connector somewhat as per the XT660Z reputation??

Thereafter, he came up against the pyschological issues involved in riding off highway alone for weeks at a time and decided to call it a day and perhaps return next year to continue his ride.
Or, maybe he ran out of time?

There's a reality check.

Naturally, The impending TTIP will solve all of this.

Yea, good point. I've noted just HOW WELL sales of both current KTM and Husqvarna dual sports models are doing sales wise here in the USA. Most models sell in the $10,000 USD range. (plus or minus a couple grand) So not that far off the CCM GP450.

KTM sales of EXC models (the road legal version) have been very strong for years here ... and now ... KTM claim that demand for the new Husqvarna bikes has caught them by surprise. Doing really well!

By extension, if there are enough riders with that sort of money ... then it's not inconcievable that CCM could make a go of it here.

Bikes like KTM's 500EXC are hard to find for sale ... they sell out very quickly, then you wait till next year to get one. So, despite hassle it would be to pass homologation into USA, probably worth it in the long run. California alone represents something like the 5th or 6th strongest economy in the world.

It's true small companies have a hard time with homologation. I've visited the Triumph factory were they explained the 3 versions of the same bike they were building on same production line. They showed us the data tag that indicated which market it was destined for. Each bike had slightly different components. IIRC, it was one for UK/EU, another for USA/California and yet another for the rest of the world. The Japanese do the same.

BTW, most ALL OEM's now build (and have done for years) a "50 State" bike, which means its California legal as well as legal in the other 49 states. So not a big deal for big companies. They are set up for it and have the system sussed out. Problem is ... things change every year! doh

You may choose not to sell paperclips in California ... but hard to ignore such a huge economy and a state with most motorcycle registrations of ALL US states.
:oops2:

Yes, fairly impressive, though I think they managed to bodge a part from another bike.

Yes, I suffered with the loose connection on the Tenere rectifier. I had to fly home from southern Spain and return a couple of months later to pick the bike up again after the dealer replaced the entire wiring loom under warranty. They paid for my flights as well, which was quite fortunate as I had intended to leave the bike in Spain for a few months anyway. LOL.

As I said, he was a normal guy, no offroad god, so no criticism of his decision. I am used to riding solo and am equipped with my Sudoko books, music on my iPod, films on my MacBook and so on. Others are not used to the solitude and find it difficult.

Pejorative bodge
 

I don't recall it as being a "bodge"; the customer's needs were met, pretty quickly and across the Atlantic, and he was satisfied with that service from CCM. That is my memory of the riders' postings at that time.
If he himself had used the term bodge I believe I might have remembered such, and the Advdribble masses might well have descended upon the thread also.

Whatever CCM actually did to meet their customer's requirement was not stated as far as I recall, beyond the provision of the necessary new part - I can't really be bothered to wade through the multitude of dross that accompanies threads in Advdrivel.

Absolutely, who would any of us be to criticise an individual's personal decision?

Contrary to my last post, I have looked back, briefly, at the quoted thread posted elsewhere to remind myself of the writer and his decision to curtail the ride because, at that time of writing, it was the most interesting aspect, to me, of his ride ---- "Will he or won't he continue the trip" -- "hang out for the next episode" kind of interesting aspect, rather as the TV writers of drama achieve.
But, in this case, he was writing from the heart about those psychological aspects and that is far more interesting to me than reading about those who accomplished a plan that "all went swimmingly" and "how good am I?"- that style of script is a big turn off in my case.
Only he really knows his own mindset in total but he does express some of the physical and mental ups and downs of his ride and the frustrations that ensued; perhaps Tommyturtle will turn up on here someday and elaborate.

I also went back to the original thread on AdvRider. After finding the axle was broken he took the bike into Gunnison Motor Sports who managed to find an axle off a Husqvarna bike that fitted. Nice bodge.

You see my expression as a pejorative, I don't.

In the context of this thread about the new GP450, certainly.

Here is the bodger sub-forum; I do consider this quite unlike even the workshop fix that you mention, irrespective of whatever it was that CCM did for the bike owner.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/bodger-fix/

Some experience riding a GP450 through Africa
 

I posted this on another thread about selecting a bike for a diminutive lady with off road capability. Several options were listed one of which was a CCM GP450. "Walkabout" asked me to add my reply into this one.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your initial post you mentioned the CCM GP450 as a consideration.
Just wanted to let you know that I rode mine from Capetown to Dar Es Salaam between June and August this year.
They do a low seat version and I understand are selling quite a few to lady riders.
I did 10,000 km. It is a very capable off road bike - much better than me - but it does make you feel much safer when away from tarmac. My son was on a BMW G650GS (single cylinder) which I rode when he fancied swapping. In contrast this was heavy unwieldy and ...well.. bloody horrible ...when off road. On tarmac it was much smoother.

The CCM was fine on tarmac. More than fast enough for all roads in Africa. Feels relatively unstressed up to 110Kph. Covers 20/22km per litre which gives it a range up to 400km. The most I did was 320km before getting some black market fuel from a guy selling out of vegetable oil containers in a village.

I had a high output generator fitted but being honest never really connected "stuff" to the bike beyond a GPS and a pair of spotlights. Had no problems with battery performance which was nice because I wasn't too sure about the super light weight and small lithium ion battery fitted as standard.
I did have some problems. The starter motor packed up but they sent a replacement which was easy to fit.
Also you need to understand that the BMW engine is a detuned racing unit. This means that it feels "busy" in comparison to typical dual purpose single pot power plants fitted with a balancer shaft. It gives it an immediacy which is great when you are in the mood. But it does vibrate. This does not really affect the riding experience once you are used to it but you have to be very careful to check all fasteners regularly otherwise bits will fall off!
In theory I could have done the journey without servicing but I did 2 oil changes and one spark plug + air filter. Relatively straightforward to do but the body work is a pain to refit - something to do with it being "stressed" into place during manufacture. I am sure a reasonably competent person (not me!) could sort that out before going on a long journey by aligning the various mounting points.

All in all I think the bike is a very good choice for Africa. Other owners have done South America (following Dakar) and the USA (coast to coast) so it does seem to be robust enough
It is expensive but if you can get a test ride off road I think you will notice the difference in the performance in comparison to normal dual purpose machines.
I hope this information is of some help.

It's the time of year when dealers sell some demonstrator bikes; even the manufacturer, CCM, is doing so:
https://www.facebook.com/ccmmotorcycle/

It was the best stand at the recent UK "NEC" show by the way, IMO.
As can be seen in some of the pics in the link.

It is rumoured that CCM took 30 orders for their production line during the UK show.

My new CCM is arriving at the beginning of April, this will be my first Brand new bike since 1974, and my first modern bike......getting quite excited it will be baptised during the South West Peninsular Rally. What attracted me to the CCM? Ultra light weight it's about 80 KGs lighter than my current travelling bike (a 90/6), brilliant suspension and love the bonded frame.

Hopefully it will persuade me to go places that I wouldn't dare take the 90/6, bit worried about shrinking my camping kit to fit the smaller bike.

For those who think that the CCM is expensive, the company has revised their prices over the past few months, producing an S version complete with luggage, Cush drive etc etc and the Lowered bikes (790mm seat height) cost the same as the normal ones (they used to be much more expensive) . I did a price comparison against the Rally Raid CB500 and comparing new for new and roughly the same specs, the bikes are in the same price range, so it comes down to whether or not you want the heavier smoother twin cylinder Honda engine, versus the lighter less refined single cylinderCCM.

Hi Chasbmw,

well I've also placed an order for one.

I've gone for the low chassis but high seat option which allows me to almost flat foot (and that's with a 28in inside leg) but still gives a comfortable angle to my knees.

I went with the S model as well.

Just awaiting for the build date to be confirmed and as I live less than 4 miles from the factory then I'll be using any excuse to return!

I must remember to order one of those new fangled upper chain guard thingies.

Enjoy your purchase.

Have you had the pleasure of a factory tour yet?

Regards

Reggie

Hi There,

they've had their best ever month in February, by selling more than 50 bikes!

Looks like they've got a hit on their hands and that's before they get homologated for the US market.

Regards

Reggie

Reggie, I'm down south so my test ride was on Salisbury plain! I'm on the cusp for frame sizes, gone for standard frame with low seat.

I'll visit the factory when I take it back for its first service.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...psnvrqmqqc.jpg

Great stuff to know that the CCM production line is busy!

From the CCM website, they have a couple of dealers in place for the UK now (one is advertising the SWM brand on UK ebay) and they continue to run test ride events around the UK.

Has anyone part exchanged a machine direct with CCM?

My mate Henry pxed his 990/950 KTM adventure with CCM and got what he considered to be a reasonable deal. If you email Darren Soothill with details and photos of your bike he should be able to get you a price. Darren can also be found on Facebook.
Darren is very enthusiastic about the bike and very keen to sell them, so a good person to talk to if you want a test ride.

Generally I have found that everyone I have dealt with the factory is helpful and responsive.
Charles

Hi Folks,

I've had my GP450 for a month or two now.
I'm just back from a week in Devon, a round trip of 1,000 miles from home in Kent.
While I was there, Devon Wheels2Work did my 500 mile service.

I went for the S version, upgraded generator, spot lights, the manual remote adjustable rear shock and the WP front forks.

I'm doing Mini Mondo with Austin Vince in October in the Pyrenees, which was the reason to choose the CCM.

Let's have a CCM meet up at HUBB UK :thumbup1:

Charles.

From strength to strength
 

Anyone who has not seen these bikes in the flesh/metal can find 3 photos in the link below, posted in the last 24 hours, that give some idea of the quality of finish etc:-
http://adventurebikerider.com/forum/...t=10&start=320

Sounds great Charles!
Can you give us a short review of your new bike? Must be quite a shock coming off a 40 year old R90/6 BMW! You mentioned the CCM will be your first new bike in 40 years ... can we assume you've owned a few "used" bikes in the interim? Ever ridden or owned any other dirt bikes or dual sport bikes?
How does your CCM compare riding ON and OFF road?

I'd love to own a CCM but none sold in USA. Can't afford one either. I'd love to know how it feels riding fast highway at 70 mph after 2 hours or so. Also, how does it do on technical single track?

My Suzuki DRZ400-E was good on single track if not too difficult, but still heavy, bit hard to manage compared to previous 250 two stroke enduros or even former XR250R. (a great bike!)

But the DRZE was not set up to carry luggage ... and your CCM is. This is a very good thing. XR250 was also BAD for luggage (no rear subframe) I had to bodge together a funky system ... not good.

https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p...-xcKfvms-L.jpg
Luggage came off twice, got into rear wheel. PITA on this 3 week Baja Ride. doh

That assembly area is a right **** tip! How can you build a quality product when you can't tell if the bit on the floor fell off the bike or the pile of bits spread over some other bit of workshop?

Amateur hour in both Stores/production and PR departments and so easy to solve doh

Andy

The thought crossed my mind before making the post, but it is a bespoke, hand built bike and not made on a production line.
It works for CCM in other words, judging by their order book; I hope it remains that way, and does not evolve into another mass produced product.

PR: I guess CCM did not release those pics but someone visiting the premises took a few snaps.

Bespoke, hand builders should be even more aware of process, 6 sigma etc. Because they dont have line manufacturing techniques available to catch the inevitable human bad day at the office. The order book wont be so healthy if they get a reputation for making Italian bike makers look predictable. Mini and Aston Martin would be the model to follow IMHO.

Andy

That had me expecting a foot of swarf on the floor, benches cobbled together from old railway sleepers and a guy in a flat cap feeding sandwiches to his whippet next to Reggie's half built new bike.

Or was that just their last factory when my old skool CCM was screwed together? :rofl:

Dear Mollydog,

Funnily enough the last new bike I bought was a Honda XL250 back in 74/74, which I heavily modified in order to ride it to Australia. The trip was a bit of a disaster, with the engine seizing in Germany and the specially made alloy fuel tank splitting (np aftermarket big tanks in those days). I returned home with my tail between my legs. The Honda was also a pig to ride fully laden.

I then switched to BMWs, which I rode home from Aussie, did North and South America, returned to Aussie and road around the continent on a 90/6. Back then this all involved a few rough roads and a bit of sand in Aussie, which the BMs did OK on even two up.

The CCM is a very different beast. It's a single and let's you know that, it's also a modern single and enjoys being revved, for only 40BHP it goes very well, must be down to the lightweight, but gearing limits top speed. It seems to be very happy in the 60-70 MPH zone. Most of the running in was done in a single day, 350 miles taking in all sorts of roads from Motorways to narrow muddy lanes in Devon and Somerset (there is some serious Banjo country down there). The bike is super light, steers wonderfully and during this long damp ride never seemed to put a foot wrong. The low seat is not comfortable, suspension seems to be great, lights are OK and spotlights really do work. The bags as supplied with the bike are a bit small, I'll probably fit my Monsoons and I have bought a smal Eduristan tank bag. I'm hoping to get all my camping kit on, but haven't done a trial pack.
The only off road riding Iv done was on the test ride, which was on muddy tracks and gravel roads in military training grounds on Salibury Plain. Seemed to be really surfooted to me and I haven't ridden off Tarmac for many years. One of the local guys who is into serious off road, told me that the CCM was the only "adventure bike" that handled off road like an Enduro after he tested one.

Bike did 220 miles before hitting reserve. 65mpg (imp). This gives me the range I want.

My only problem is the height, I specified a standard framed bike with the low seat, I'm struggling a bit with the 890mm seat height, sliding one buttock elegantly off the seat at traffic lights! Haven't found an elegant way to get off the bike yet. I'm not as flexible as I was. I will see how I get on with a fully laden bike and then see if I want to get it lowered.

The components seem to be pretty good quality and so far nothing has fallen off and it's a really pretty bike, the way the frame is constructed is brilliant

I'm off back down to Devon in the morning, to get first service. Would be ideal to take to Marocco in the Autumn.

Wow! Tough Crowd!
I tend to cut CCM staff some slack on this one. What I get from the pics of the shop is that you're getting a truly "hand made" bike. If the QA is there and the techs know their business ... should be a good bike truly built by one or two techs from start to finish.

I wonder if the motor is made with the same care?

Yea, things are a bit skattered. No robots like Japan and no automated overhead parts trollies like Triumph. Different style but doesn't mean it's bad.
I hope CCM is successful! bier

Thanks for the good review! Sounds ideal, I think you're just a better seat and lowering link away from near perfection. :thumbup1:

I'm just 5' 6" so can relate. But you've got it right. Slide forward as far as you can, hang off to one side to tippy toe.

I've got "The Way" to get on and off the bike:
1. Engage side stand.
2. Stand up on pegs, leaning left onto side stand.
3. shift weight to left foot/peg and swing right leg UP and OVER to ground.
4. This works well even with luggage piled up on the rear rack.

Do reverse to mount the bike. Just like a Horse! Left foot on left peg. Reach in, grab bars, hold front brake on. Hoist up on left peg, swing right leg up and over, all the while leaning onto side Stand. YES, it will be strong enough.

You may consider Lowering Links for shock linkage. Typically brings bike down
1.5 to 2.0 inches. Raise fork tubes UP in triple clamps to match rear.

Have fun in Morocco! bier

Andy,

Six sigma blackbelt consultants hire themselves out at between £500 and £1000 per day, when you are a small company on tight margins I don't think that too much formal Process or QA is either affordable or required.

To date my experience with CCM has been pretty good.

I received my bike since at the end of March, I had a test ride in February, put down a deposit subject to trade in, and got a build slot. The trade in didn't happen, because of the difficulty in valuing a heavily modified 1982 BMW, so I sold it privately, so there was a bit of back and forth over spec. The bike arrived, built to my spec, a day early. (Norton, please note) No faults that I can find and I've just had the first service at one of the new dealers, Devon Wheels to work at the princely sum of £50.00.
Max the boss at Devon-wheels was really helpful, especially in finding a way to Lower my bike, without having to go through the full lowered spec.

Fitting a lowering link or something else and how much did you lose from the original 890mm seat height?

It's not certain yet, we can lower the forks a bit and there is lots of adjustment left on the rear shock preload, so it is a question about how much we can take from that. Max is talking to CCM about the options. Nothing settled yet.

Any other suggestions gratefully received

Backing off on Rear Pre load is not the way to lower your bike. You'll simply put the suspension all out of sorts. Better to set the preload correctly, based on your weight. First check static sag, then get on the bike and check Race Sag. Adjust preload as needed. Now add a lowering link to set ride height ... your preload setting will remain the same. (more or less)

A lowering link is dead simple and cheap to do, IMO, most cost effective way to properly lower the rear of the bike without messing up the suspension performance. Check Kouba links or others.

YES ... you lose a bit of travel and ground clearance, but looks like the CCM has about 12 inches, so plenty to spare in the interest of being able to touch feet down. :thumbup1:

The front is a different story, and you can cut the fork tubes, but this is expensive ... better to slide tubes UP in the triple clamps as far as you can to match rear ride height. Front to rear balance is VERY important.

The other possibility is using a Ride Height adjuster on your Shock to fine tune ride height. Your shock most likely does not have this adjustment. Shocks like Ohlins (and others) DO have ride height adjusters.

This changes ride height without affecting preload and is used on race bikes to fine tune geometry. (to aid in quicker turning or to make slower turning and more stability)

Good luck!

You dont need a consultant at this stage, you can buy a book for a tenner and introduce labelled racking, nothing on the floor rules, peg boards for tools, a weekly walkround with the foreman, 8 minute tidy-up and home 2-minutes early.....

CCM have a bad reputation from the old company. That photo, which should never have been allowed and is a sales management error, makes you think its a hobby company run by a bloke in an old shed. CB500s and upgrade kits look better through a lack of pretty basic control. Its a mised opportunity to differentiate themselves from both the old reputation and a percieved risk by the customer.

Andy

Interesting stuff on ADV from people who have owned and used CCMS

CCM 450 Adventure | Page 128 | Adventure Rider

Good thread above, nice to hear from owners who've done actual mileage on the CCM and share experience ... good and bad. bier

just come back from a trip down to the bottom of France, bike works pretty well in the travel bike category, lots of range from the 20 litre tank, getting usually between 60 and 65 MPG, i usually refuelled at around 200 miles, leaving lots of miles spare.
I was camping off the bike so taking around 30 KG of luggage, luggage does not seem to change the handling to any degree, which is a refreshing change from all other bikes i have used.
The bike is very nimble, just a tad of pressure on a footpeg to change direction, it seems to combine that with lots of stabilility, but like any other light bike gets moved around a bit by big trucks.
The bike is smooth enough for a single, feels happiest at between 60 -70 MPH, it does have the low emissions issue of too lean a mixture at low revs, with resultant surging but happily booster plug are working on a solution.

Now done 2700 miles with no real issues to report, everything has stayed together properly

Unhappily the bike was stolen from my garage last night so if anyone sees a CCM for sale at a unreasonably low price get in touch.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...psexdjjiaa.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...pswidpxf48.jpg

Glad you like the CCM, Sorry to hear that it was stolen, my sympathies, Ive had a DR650 stolen before and I know the feeling - bike thieves are utter scum.
Be a good idea to post the information on as many motorcycle/travel forums as possible, the CCM is still a rare bike, cant be too many coming up for sale or for parts.

Good Luck and I hope your insurance coughs up and you get back on 2 wheels soon.

CCM 450 great handling
 

Both me and my girlfriend are looking for new adventure bikes, and not being tall means that our choice is a little limited, the advice that we have been getting was to keep the weight down.

Last week I visited the Bolton CCM factory and went for a day test ride with Darren Soothill, we rode everything, motorways, country roads and off road gravel, mud, rocks the lot. Other than mountain biking, I had no prior off road experience and was somewhat nervous about the prospect.

With Darrens excellent mentoring and the exceptional ease of handing, the CCM 450 was amazing, it grips the road surface whatever the condition, the lightness makes handling easy. With lots of power you can get out of anything. I was astonished at what I could do as a complete novice on this bike, its like mountain push-biking with an engine.

I was so impressed that I ordered two new bikes.

Now I need to sell the camper van to finance both bikes, still keeping the wheel count the same.

Welcome to the gang, great light bikes.

Charles

CCM moving along
 

Anyone with an eye on what CCM plans are will know that the GP450 model is discontinued, the 450 cc engine being killed off by the EU emissions regulations.

CCM have announced that the GP450 will be replaced with a new model of around 600cc (a GP600??) with an engine that likely will come from Italy (same one that is to be fitted in the SWM bike)..

Meanwhile, CCM will not stand idle: Here's their recently announced Spitfire - a limited production run starting in the Autumn (that's "the Fall" to some of you).

http://www.ccm-motorcycles.com/_incl...es_Updated.pdf
This style of machine is quite the rage for some people and the Spitfire should keep the CCM employees busy until the GP600 is on the assembly line.

the Spit reminds me of my G650X Country.

Seems that I will have to look for second hand GP 450....
greets trolik

Take a look at uk Ebay, usually a selection for sale at prices between £5500 and £7000, chose a later bike......

I’m hoping that the Gp600 will be showcased at this years NEC bike show in a couple of weeks time, but it maybe that they are are spending too much time and energy fabricating baubles for the hipster generation.

The last time I looked at the "NEC Motorcycle live" web page, the bit about CCM was not promising anything specific about the GP600.
Certainly, the Spitfire will be on display.

The SWM part of that same web page said that they are selling the 600 engine to more than one other bike manufacturer: from memory, that included some entity known as "MAC" (I think that is what it was - I wasn't taking much notice at the time, basically).

there was some chatter on the various CCM facebook pages, indicating that there might be a GP600 at the NEC.......Good if there was they must be getting to an end of the Spitfire variants, they do say that there will be a 'flattracker' on Show.

Those speculating on an upcoming CCM600 (or the SWM superdual and AJP PR7 which both use the same engine) a word of warning! While short service intervalls might be acceptable for the spitfires, which are probably just used for the sunday ride to the favorite cafe, it is totally unacceptable to do valve clearance checks every 5000km and replace the valve timing chain, chain gears and tensioner after only 20.000km on a bike that is used for long distance touring!

Too true! I'm a bit behind on what's going on with these bikes.
I'm assuming CCM's engine supply was cut off by either BMW ... or by the producer of the GP450 motor, Kymco (Taiwan).

It's a shame CCM could not make a deal to continue production ... or better yet, add a 600cc engine to the line up.

Not sure about the long term reliability will be on the motor mentioned above that is
apparently) being used in several bikes ... none of which I've ever seen in person. Tell me again WHO makes the motor
you're talking about?

bier

I understand that Kymco ceased production of the 450 engine, CCM are currently making a range of Hipster style bikes based on the 600 cc engine used in the SWM adventure bike. I understand that the engine “is a peach” .

I can’t comment on the likely reliability of the 600 engine, but similar comments were made about the BMW 450 engine, which has generally been reliable in service (most people’s issues have been with ancillaries). Ben Clews said that CCM will be making a GP600, using the same bondlight frame technology as the 450, but it’s likely to be a 2019 bike. The engine is a bit heavier an extra 10KGs or more, but I’ll take that in exchange for much better road manners than the 450 which was a bit too highly strung.

So far nobody knows much about the long time reliability of the 600 engine which will probably be used for a new CCM Adventure. The engine is already used by SWM and AJP and checking their service table made me shake my head.

5000km intervall for oil changes and valve clearance check is already at the VERY lower edge for a bike which is intended for long trips. What kills it is in my opinion the replacement of the valve timing chain after only 20.000km! For a cafe racer (=spitfire) which is not making big mile per year this is ok, but for a travel bike replacing the chain every year or in the middle of a RWT trip is a very costly endeavor!

Good points. :thumbup1: A lot will depend on this new engine and how it's holding up to hard, long use. If the engine ends up being "Japanese tough", like a DR650 or something, then I feel owners may be able to stretch valve checks, maybe even cam chain service.

But if it's a sensitive engine ... well, not good. :nono:
May not make the ideal travel bike.

I assume the new engine is made in China? Which company makes it? and what Chinese bikes is it currently used in?

The Chinese 250cc ADV bikes are sold in USA now. Things are slow but progress is being made. Where will this lead? No idea. :innocent:

But it's damn sure the Chinese companies are not sitting on their hands regards this ADV trend. Hopefully they won't jump from a 250 to a 600 but rather do a nice, reliable 400 or 450cc bike for real ADV travel.

The current ADV 250 bikes are fully set up and look like "mini GS's", cost about
$3500. This bike up graded to a 450, perhaps offering better suspension and other things, would make it very hard for CCM to compete with. Their current bike sells for "about" US $12,000. :helpsmilie:

The SWM is around £8k, if the CCM version is 20kgs lighter, uses the same Tractive rear suspension as the 450 and is under £10k it should be competitive, but this will be a crowded space with various 270 degree, twins coming to the market over the next couple of years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:eek3: "Crowded space" indeed. :oops2:

Seems to me both the SWM and proposed CCM may have priced themselves right out of the market ... at least here in USA.

The new KTM 790 P-Twin (not set for release until late 2018 or early '19) "should" sell from $11K to $12K USD. The new Yamaha Tenere' T-7 probably will sell for "about" same amount. All these "rough" prices gleaned on line.

IMO, a 10K UKP 450 ADV bike (around USD $15K) will be a very hard sell in USA considering competition.

Most riders ... if they are honest ... are going to look closely at their requirement for travel and may realize that a Kawasaki KLR650, Suzuki DR650 or Honda XR650L will do the job perfectly for 95% of what they intend to do. Relatively cheap and reliable. Not flashy or trendy, but tough and competent, won't win any Moto Cross races or Enduros but cheap to run and great to load up and GO!

I can buy 3 DR650's for cost of ONE CCM. doh

I wish CCM well, hope they can break through with a new engine and get it certified Euro 4. For USA, that is the toughest hurdle for small OEM's.

Molliedog,
None of those bikes are currently available in the UK.

For good reasons - you are referencing the old stuff from the Japanese.

Nevertheless, it is taking a while for the message to sink in with those who don't actually get the new bikes imported into places such as the USA --

CCM sold every one of the GP450 bikes they manufactured.
They gave every appearance of considering the USA market but found that they didn't need it.

The company remain in business, meeting a market that is much more bespoke, even specialised, than the mass produced "stack them high and sell them cheap" market; there is room for both in this world and it is the way that the UK needs to move, increasingly, in the future (it is what the UK has been doing for some time in any case).

For those who aren't aware, SWM are producing their Euro 4 compliant engine in the "old" Italian factory that is actually newly built -- the one that was updated by BMW when they manufactured Husqvarna machines there.
The whole SWM shebang has been financed with Chinese money, via Shineray I believe (that last bit would need an amount of further research for anyone who is really interested in such things).

Wanted: Wide ratio gears ccm gp450
 

https://www.novaracing.co.uk/Product...t20082011.html

I contacted Nova Racing this week.

This was the reply:

Unfortunately we have not got any of these in stock. We have not had enough
interest in them to manufacture a batch for some time now.
If we had orders for 4-5 we would put a batch into manufacture. The price
would be £1200 + carriage (around £35) + vat.

Is anybody interested in purchasing the gears ???
I need only three more and they will start to manufacture...:funmeteryes:

I would if I had the bike! Prices need to come down by a grand for me, then I would immediately lob the saved grand into the gearbox. Sadly my ducks are not yet in a row!

I'm interested.
I'm not sure who I could get to fit it for me though and how much that would cost.
I doubt my local BMW dealer would want to be involved in fitting non BMW parts.

You should try posting on the advrider.com GP450 thread as well, and perhaps the adventurebike rider magforum.

I have added a link to your post to the GP450 facebook group, and see if we can round up a few more interested people.

suspension travel
 

hello, I had a daft half hour recently and thought about buying a used GP450. A bit scary seeing how many there are for sale?
But, anyway, checking on the CCM webpage (out of date, obs) it lists the suspension travel of front and rear as 165mm. REALLY? So, just wondering if anyone out there can confirm this? Makes my old XT seem positively agile if correct. :)

That's the low suspension model. Add another 100mm or so for the standard version.

ok, thank you for this. I am still mulling this potential purchase over.