CCM GP 450 Adventure
 

Hi,

I had the opportunity to ride the brandnew CCM GP 450 Adventure just before they start the production and I was very impressed about the conecpt of this lightweight bike, which really seems to be ready for big journeys. The handling offroad is great, as there are build in good suspensions (front from Marzocchi) and rear shocks (from Tractive) and even on road the bike makes a good job for relaxed traveling.



On my site you'll also find a detailed review whith a lot of pictures (in german language): >> CCM GP 450 Adventure <<

So long,

da Wolf

Good video, thanks. I had a test ride earlier this year but less chance to ride off tarmac.

What I've not yet seen is how the bike handles with full luggage which is how I would be travelling most of the time. As I mostly ride solo I favour twin aluminium panniers (for security), plus roll bag and tank bag.

There will be opportunities to test ride the bike at HUBB UK which is coming up next week.

At £8000 it would come in more expensive than a KTM 1190 here. Insane. The range is also very limited and would be what? 230 km?

Far cheaper to get the KTM 690 Oryx. 148 kg bike. 66 bhp. 27 litre tank. Cheaper same weight more power longer range.

I thought the same: £8k for a dirtbike! :confused1: What's wrong with a good used DRZ400s for about £2500? The DRZ has proven reliability and available bling (new and used). CCM has the reputation of building poor bikes (how often have they gone bust?) and the 450 bmw engine they're using failed as a race engine with David Knight. Prior and since his BMW interlude he has won everything on KTM (and privately with Kawasaki).

CCM probably got the engines cheap, as a job lot, when the BMW G450 was discontinued.

My mate thought it was shocking when he tested one earlier this year. I'll give it a test ride at HU Donington next week. Even if I thought it was good, I wouldn't pay such a huge amount of money for it.

Some people have managed to put a few 1000 miles on the pre-production machine.
You can see their views here:-
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...t=10&start=130

Important point, IMO.
I feel that full luggage will likely have a MAJOR affect on such a LIGHT WEIGHT bike. I'm betting it totally changes it's character off road ... as weight will do with just about every bike made. Light bikes are more affected than heavy ones, but all change personality with luggage.

That could well be true. Kymco made the BMW motor in Taiwan. Probably had a couple thousand left overs sitting in a warehouse, so Win Win.

I agree how bad the BMW 450 race bike sucked ... but I don't blame the motor so much. I think the motor is basically OK ... the wacky chassis and geometry was at fault, IMO.

Time will tell how that motor holds up doing long miles. Kymco make fantastic products. Try to break one of their scooters. You can't do it. :rofl: If the 450 is even half as tough ... it will be OK. But £8K? Over the top!

Not sure £8k is over the top, try pricing up an equivalent KTM/Yamaha 450cc enduro bike with no fairing, less fuel capacity and no luggage capability apart from slinging a Giant Loop over the rear and and then factor in the cost of those mods to bring it up to a similar spec to the CCM.

I know from experience what it costs to do the same to a KTM 690 Enduro and you couldn't do it for under £8k unless you fabricate a lot of the components yourself and even then, factor in some sort of sensible hourly rate for your labour and It still can't be done. I remember prepping a DRZ for a 4 month South America trip and spending approximately 150 hours on the bike which included all of the running about getting parts powder coated and buying tools, parts and materials. Extending the subframe and fabricating pannier frames for a CRF230F recently totalled 15+ hours.

I'm not in the market for such a bike but I want CCM to succeed with this bike as more choice can only be a good thing.

There appears to be a few folk on the 'net who are are against this bike despite the majority never having ridden one. :confused1:

No question prep costs can escalate upward quickly. But if you start off with a relatively low cost bike, then even with prep, it may not be too expensive.

Or, find a used bike where the prep has been done for you? In any case, I'd bet the CCM also needs some prep? like any bike you buy, always needs some prepping somewhere. Dunno?

£8K UKP ia about $12,000 usd. Not sure you really need a Dakar style Dash and shield or fairings at all. And lots of riders now using Giant Loop. I DO like the CCM soft bags. Nice set up, but I could do similar for much less.

I bought an Acerbis 4.5 US Gal. tank for my WR250F for about $180 USD. Not bad. IMS and Clarke also make big tanks for most popular bikes. No need for a $800 Safari or $2000 Rally Raid Dakar fairing.

A few alternative bikes as starting platforms available for sale today:
Beta 450 RS Dirt / Dual Sport (Low Miles, Nice!)
This Beta is interesting, very good reviews. bier

Lots of WR450's and DRZ's around here too, pretty inexpensive:
2006 WR450 green sticker
2006 WR450 green sticker
2007 WR 450 Excellent Shape
2004 DRZ400e, Street Legal ###########################################
2006 Suzuki DRZ400S w/ SM Wheels
2009 Suzuki DRZ400S
2006 Suziki DRZ400S

The UK based “Adventure Bike TV” show, first episode reviews the CCM GP450....

http://www.adventurebiketv.com

Chris, your really hitting at this bike again - really it is not needed, to be so negative about a fledgling project such as CCM, more so when your views may be quite influential within the HUBB network by way of your experience, background and travel history.
As you will know and I am sure there will be many people who look up to the like of yourself for advice and guidance from your wide experience which is fair enough, however if you have your facts wrong ( different to your personal views) that then would be very unfair to the likes of CCM looking at what they are trying to achieve and where they are at the moment.
You have not ridden the bike but you have a mate that did not like it - well there are many that have ridden it and thought it excellent - two friends of mine who like yourself have done big trips - massive cross continent trips - on various bikes both say they would consider the bike very high on the list of bikes.
I have not yet ridden the bike for various reasons but still cannot see why your so negative I can only be positive about it in its concept.
The CCM is new and offers something that does not exist to this market - it also appears of high build quality - yes it need proven but so does everything new to the market. CCM have it appears learnt from the past and hopefully (given the chance) moved on into a new chapter with this bike.
Bye the way (as for drz's something many people often refer to) one of the riders i mention above also ownes a drz and does not rate it that highly, constantly goes on about - various aspects of the poor build quality, the know failings and unreliable side of the DRZ series history. Thats not to mention the amount of money spent to bring his particular bike up to a reasonable level - still not comparable to the CCM.
To add to that I did some work on the bike with him recently - and have to say i was shocked at the poor quality of simple things like the electrics and some of the chassis welding - I was surprised as this was on a very low mileage bike.
I currently ride a Cagiva elefant at the moment another bike you would not rate - based on what ? an italian bias a ducati bias -who knows - but the quality of the chassis and general engineering are simply years ahead of its time and even the wiring (now almost 20 years old and with a tiny amount of modifcation) on the Elefant are way ahead of the much more modern drz. (I agree the Elefant is a little more complex to work on the engine) but still easy enough. I think we will never agree on our views over this CCM or the Elefant or the BMW for that matter but hey ho. Why however go on about the CCM - when you have nothing good to say about the machine nor any experience of it.:frown:

Jake, the point remains, you can take a bike like the KTM 690, put enough Rally raid stuff on it, up to or below the cost of the CCM and end up with far more bike for your money: same weight class, more power, more range, luggage potential. As far as handling, you would have to ride both. But hard to beat the KTM suspension set up.

The point isn't the CCM is a bad bike, but value for money. I just figure if I spent £8000 I would have a far better custom bike. To try and enter a market at a price range exceeding a fully kitted out rally bike with a known reputation doesn't seem like good marketing. After £8000 you are still left with a bike you must modify to carry fuel and luggage. And how will the 450 motor cope with that?

Kradmelder,I take that point and its constructive - then your left down to choice, my point was that Chris ( who I know and like so its nothing personal by the way just a differing point of view and approach to this bike) does not add particularly constructive criticism just criticism mainly of CCM full stop.
Also here in the UK to add the rally raid gear to a ktm is a bit more expensive than the CCM. I have owned and really rate the KTM series bikes having travelled a reasonable bit on one. However I was not taken at all with the 690 its far to biased as an out an out dirt bike whereas the CCM is a bit more middle of the road than that.
Look at anyone who has ridden one on the dirt - absolute amateurs have found the bike is easy to ride and give a very reassuring feel and degree of competence - the 690 is a bit more of a handful, maybe thats where the CCm is better suited.
The lad who I quoted as having a drz also has a KTM 950 's' and a ktm 640 adventure both of which he has done some major mileage on - he is also a very very competent rider in any environment - he has ridden the CCM on and off road NOT on a guided tour by the factory team. He rates the CCM very highly and at its worst it is as capable as the 640 - something I would never think I would hear him say and believe me that would be very hard earned praise. The CCm wil have no doubt as you point out some limitations and failings you cant cover everything to everyone.going custom may be the best way to achieve certain requirements however many people simply are not willing or are not able to do that. Also the target market here in UK and Europe i would think are maybe quite different to the market and requirements down in your end of the world.

Bye the way I think this - road /off road real world test by minkyhead speaks up a bit for the CCM

CCM 450 Adventure - Page 74 - ADVrider

Jake.

Everybody is allowed their opinion. Yours counts for as much as mine = very little. I think you're over-egging it a bit implying I'm an opinion leader. Nobody gives a toss about what I think. The evidence is plain to see. I think oil head GSs are bag of sh!te and everybody rides one :D.

Which facts do I have wrong with regard to CCM?


Good luck to CCM. They definitely need to learn from their history of mistakes. I really can't see this market niche that will make them much money. Everybody else is building bigger/heavier/faster road oriented faux-adventure bikes and seem to be making big money. Maybe people want to pay £8k for a dirtbike. Just because I won't, makes no difference to anyone.

Dazzer, who rode the bike at Haggs Bank at the WIMA event (let's not discuss why he's at a women only bike event... :innocent: ) didn't like it. His opinion also counts for the same as yours or mine.

You haven't ridden the bike, yet wear rose tinted glasses. Great. I haven't either, and my glasses are less rose tinted. I don't see it as a big deal either way.

I said I was going to test ride it at the weekend at Donington. You need to show your driver's licence. I've got to post my licence to the Derbyshire Constabulary this week to have speeding points added :( so won't be testing it :oops2:


I bought my DRZ for £2000 including a big tank. The bike didn't need any sorting and is great for what it is and has had some great trips to Morocco and other European destinations. I haven't had any issues worth mentioning with the bike. A chap I rode with in Siberia last summer, rode a stock XR400 Honda (just a bigger tank) from the UK to Magadan and back(!) with no issues. It cost him £800. (not £8000!)


Now you're in the land of fantasy Jake, claiming to know what I think of Cagiva Elefants:nono: I quite like them and have a soft spot for Italian vehicles.

Oh yeh, I now own an Aprillia. Actually it's a BMW X Challenge, but it's essentially an Italian Aprillia. The only thing German is the badge and the mapping of the EFI unit.

If you're at Donington, let's drink a beer.

Chris i am not at Donnington - so no drink sorry.

I did not say your facts were wrong but they are mainly historic and companies change and can evolve, and make good I don't think you are prepared to let that past rest and give them a chance - a new day dawning and all that.

Rose tinted specs - maybe but more like very bright psychedelic actually - but just want to see a British company making a bike do well more the point, your right about opinions - but your pretty well up on the list of people who people will listen to by virtue of your scribe work and experiences regarding travel - I am not.
I respect Dazzers opinion and he is a hell of a rider - it surprises me he does not rate the bike - but maybe its aimed more at novices like myself.

Elefants - you let me know once what a bad choice that would be - good luck with it - giving a bit of a feel that they were not a bike to head for - so again you really surprise me with the nice comment there - that really deserves a beer.

Then you tell me you have got an Italian bike - ye gads be careful - it could be a long slow slide down a slippy and ever steeper slope.

I know many cheap bikes go many places reliably - bike are not about the money to me if you can afford them and like them then that's the equation I apply.

I perfectly understand that a cheap bike is and can be a good thing in a far off place - that makes sense in many ways - but all bikes start off new and reasonably expensive at some point - like many things hand built and or quality can cost more. (note and / or) as the two do not always go together.


Finally you should not have been going so fast -bad lad and if you were your observation should have seen the one that caught you before he/she/machine whatever had a chance to do so - then you would have been riding within your observational limits. TUT TUT. Keep smiling Jake.

I'm curious what the On The Road price is ... in South Africa ... for a new
KTM 690 Enduro? Here, it's about $10,500 USD, add in tax, lic. dealer prep, close to $12,000 on the road. How does S. Africa compare? :confused1:

Sometimes in technical riding the smaller, lighter bike is easier to handle.
I can go faster on a technical trail on a 250 than a 450.

£8000 is about equal to $12,000 USD. Seems to me, you're starting about at the same price point with either bike. I know guys spend A LOT more than $2000 usd on "customizing" the 690. The rear sub frame kit is an interesting
problem ... since the stock 690 has no subframe. :helpsmilie:

No question the 690 is a great bike ... and better every year. I rode 1st year model and a 2013, which was better. Even if I could afford these bikes, I'm not sure I'd buy one for a travel bike.

I hope CCM does well with the bike. They are headed in the right direction
but need to, IMO, get costs in line.

I was going to ask the same thing! Did he get it wrong about the Kymco produced, made in China motor? Or was CCM's very dismal history? Or was it the fact David Knight (World Enduro Champion) quit BMW and sacrificed millions to GET OFF the BMW ... with the same 450 motor is in the CCM? Or maybe his facts about the difference between an £8K CCM and a £2K DRZ400? :rofl:
Don't worry Jake, if CCM has got the bike right, it won't go unnoticed.

£800! Gasp! Very impressive.

Hi folks,

of course the CCM isn't a cheap bike, but the price is "only" £ 300 more than a KTM 690 Enduro R, which is stronger but "naked", that means you have to invest approx. £ 2000 more (with Rally Raid products, KTM-Basel offers an even more expensive but very good and proven kit) to get it ready for traveling. The CCM comes with an 18-litres-fuel-tank which is good enough for a range of about 400 km and a good windscreen so there is not much to do to before start a longer trip. Don't misunderstand me, I love the LC4 (i have one in my 690 Duke R) and the GP 450 still has to prove that the bike will make it but I think we should give it a chance. The market will answer our questions anayway. At least I really enjoyed my ride around Salter Fell and the Through of Bowland and offroad I conceived it more handy than a 690 Enduro, which i rided very often before. In my opinion there is a place for the CCM GP 450 Adventure, even in my plans as I am looking for a smaller playmate for my Tiger (and still thinking about KTM, but now also a little bit CCM)...

And I know that I could get a (used) lightweight bike for less money and build it up by myself, but out of the shop there is at the moment nothing comparable.

Sorry for my English!

So long,

da Wolf

Mollydog I don't know the answers either but through my very rosey specs the world is very different place to that inhabited by the rest of you poor mortals

Dave knight and the BMW tie up / breakdown - who knows the full facts except Dave knight - but I would suspect if it was the bike it was the chassis that did not work fromwhat various reports say - but it could have been the rigid flexability shown by the BMW management that made it unworkable, I would expect the engine was reasonably fine for the job and Mr knight would be able to compensate for its shortcomings if any by his skill level.

The CCM engine is made in Tiawan not China - very different countries with different political and and economical bases.

CCM have made some changes to the running of 450 engine - ie ignition set up etc to change its character to suit this application.

Trying to compare a well built small manufacturer product with very high quality components and a mass produced tacked together budget bike will give massive price differences so comparing CCM to a Yamaha is not really fair the KTM is about the only comparable bike and really we should be looking at the 450 ktm for a more balanced comparison cost in the UK £7349 - its a pure off road bike thats barely road legal and no way would I want to cover 500 road miles on one - that is if I could bare the pain of the plank they call a seal or the ergonomics and vibration - so doubt it wold work too well in KTM 's favour. ( remember I really rate and like KTM bikes so no prejudice here).

I think most people are forgetting the CCM sits somewhere in the middle and it need to be judges against something similar - but what ? it has the ability to carry luggage and be ridden for mile upon mile of road and motorway at motorway speeds with plenty left over for safe overtakes etc - then it can play in the grass and the sand. It does both well but does not exceed at either. Almost everything else mentioned in these talks has a big compromise one side of that fence or the other.

now where are those Specs :D

Production starts next month.
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...t=10&start=140

As the man says (that's the guy who has actually ridden one of these CCMs, a bit) why not just stop bleating about 6-10 year old bikes, and their second hand prices, especially in comparison with a brand new product? It's just a repeated statement of the bleeding obvious and comparing apples with pears.

Ride what you brung, or go out and buy something else.

Tell you what, if said "man" is a representative of CCM, I wouldn't buy a CCM on principle, just because of his arrogant, objectionable attitude. As you link from Adventure Book Reader, anything written on there should be taken with a liberal grain of salt.

Apples/ pears? The BMW g450x (which shares the same engine as the CCM) was announced in 2007 and released in 2010 (before being discontinued shortly afterwards). That's 4/7 years. So we're talking the same time frame as 6 to10 being bleated about. You're not telling me CCM have invented some brand new concept here in 2014: It's a dirt bike with a plastic rallye-look fairing, the same technology/chassis/manufacturing used in the past decade throughout the m/c building world.

Indeed, I'll carry on riding what I brung, rather than just reading about it in a "adventure" book.

The price inflation of new bikes amazes me. I recently sold a Triumph road bike for the same money I bought it for, 9 years later. I'll probably be able to sell my DRZ for more than I bought it for too, at this rate.

:tongue_smilie:
KTM 690 Enduro R is R109 K from the dealers floor. That will be on the road costs including all taxes, plates etc. Just ride it home. Roughly £ 5500.

There are 2 Oryx versions. The Rally sport version includes fairing, ergonomics, suspension upgrades, and more power. It is £6500. The Rally replica Oryx version, which is with the Rally Raid option, rally fairing, 27 l tank, upgrade to 68 hp etc. modelled on the Dakar 450 version, is £8000. The upgrade is done here in SA.

Same cost as the CCM but one hell of a lot more bike. This includes all transport and import duties.

The CCM is also £8000 in UK. It would be far higher here after transport and import duties. Hard to estimate how much because you would have to deduct UK taxes, and SA import ones and shipping costs. But Im sure it is much higher as everything more expensive here if it is imported. I don't know why you yanks pay so much for a 690. Maybe the Austrians don't like you for always bombing people's countries :tongue3:. Or perhaps Obama is slapping on massive duties to pay for his bomb and spend campaigns lol!

Again, the 690 is far cheaper, even with the Oryx upgrade to full brown Rally Raid edition. It is a no brainer as to which would sell. CCM has somehow lost the plot, not in what they try to achieve, but the cost level at which they enter the market with a new product. And the bike still needs modification to come near what you get with the Oryx.

Nice bike, but meh, value for money?

I attended the WIMA event and wrote an opinion elsewhere but because I questioned some of the design and power delivery, I'm hesitant to air my view. However....

+1

Overall, I liked it but not enough to put a deposit on one (yet).

There were 23 riders & 4 bikes. To fit everyone into 7 hours & allowing for riding experience, change-over, etc we were restricted to 45 minutes.

I'm short so opted for a lowered version which has a modified frame as well as different forks.

On tarmac it was a hoot to ride but off road, I found the throttle too sensitive making it difficult to ride slowly. Later, I discovered I wasn't the only rider to complain about the snatchy throttle so it couldn't have been just my bike....
I also thought the suspension was rock hard. Someone pointed that the lowered version had almost no angle on the swing-arm.

I also dislike the location of the fuel cap. Fuel pumps are prone to drip & worse still, filling using a funnel by someone who doesn't care - I simply don't want petrol on my gear. :censored:

It would have been nice to discuss my views with CCM but there wasn't time for tinkering & we weren't at CCM's base in Bolton. It was just a matter of getting riders through the day.

I really appreciated the time and effort CCM made on a BH weekend & I will consider going to their base for a longer test ride. Just not yet.

How much will it cost to add an oil leak to the CCM to make it like a true piece of birtish machinery :angel:

I agree, as stated earlier, most likely chassis and set up.
Also agree, the motor is most likely OK, after all, Knight's team mates scored well riding BMW's, podium finishes for two years it ran.

But no one has put 10's of thousands of road miles on that motor... YET. So, in a way, it's untested as a true travel bike motor. I'm betting it's OK given good maintenance.

Taiwan has struggled for independence since 1949, but these days it's widely recognized as being part of CHINA (PRC), just like Hong Kong. But still somewhat independent of China ... but make no mistake ... the PRC are really in control. Check your recent history.

Nonetheless, Kymco is a really good company. The culture and tech of Taiwan are far ahead of mainland China ... but Taiwan IS now part of China.
Taiwan have true 1st world tech (but China is getting there). China have let Taiwan remain somewhat independent, knowing it's in their interest to let this thriving capitalist success story alone.

Having done a factory tour of Yamaha in Japan ... I can assure you "mass produced" does not mean "tacked together budget bike".
:rofl: Yamaha don't do "tacked together", trust me, been there, seen it. Also been to BMW and Triumph.

You have NO IDEA how sophisticated Yamaha are, no idea the extent of their R & D efforts, torture testing and severe quality control. No small OEM can even come close.

KTM have got there after decades of problems ... and producing crap, real unreliable crap, having "basic principles" problems which the Japanese over came decades earlier. KTM worked hard, copied German and Japanese production techniques to get better and sold out to Bajai and their BILLIONS to get themselves to world class quality. They always made a good two stroke, but struggled for decades with their four strokes.

This all sounds good and hopeful! How the CCM will actually hold up over the long term on the road, doing 10's of thousands of hard miles, remains to be seen. I wish them all the luck! bier

I think David Knight's issue with the G450X was the geometry and not the engine, which makes plenty of power. He wanted the engine moved in the frame, BMW refused but I've seen pics of at least one bike where the engine is moved forwards and the swingarm is no longer co-axial with the front sprocket.

CCM do not have the buying power of KTM etc, so economies of scale come in to play, affecting their purchase costs and hence the retail price of the bike.

Someone mentioned that the lowered GP450 had almost no angle on the swingarm? That's what happens when you lower any bike, it's unavoidable unless you re-engineer the frame with different swing arm position in the frame, hard enough on a regular bike but impractical on a bike where the swingarm pivots in line with the front sprocket (I believe that the CCM does, as did the G450X but am ready to be proved wrong as I can't be bothered looking it up). Re: harder forks on the same bike, generally if you reduce suspension travel on an offroad style bike, it's a good idea to firm up the suspension to avoid bottoming out when ridden hard. I'm surprised no one's complained that the lowered bike had reduced ground clearance and this alone proves poor value for money.

I still can't believe the negativity surrounding this bike? If you feel it's too expensive and that you'll never buy one for whatever reason, fair enough but at least stop the bitching please.

A Brit complaining about people whinging? That is the pot calling the kettle black :rofl:

But in all seriousness, the OP discusses the bike as suitable for long journeys. Price is certainly one of the very important factors in choosing a bike. Price of the bike and price of modifications required. Here the CCM is not really a contender and is bowled.

Let us look at other aspects:

Reliability: who knows? It hasn't been around long enough. Given what others have said about it's past record, it doesn't seem like it scores runs here. Im not sure. Dot ball

Parts availability: BMWs, DRZ, KLRs etc have a wide spread availability. Im not sure about parts for the 450 in the CCM. what about other parts? There certainly isn't a dealer network. Dot ball

Luggage: The bike will need modification to carry more fuel and luggage. How will that affect the bike? Another unknown. Maybe the same as other smaller lighter bikes? No ball.

will the CMM be bowled? I certainly don't see CCM hitting the adventure travel market for a six.

So isn't it premature to say 'the bike is ready for long distance travel'?

Feel free to discuss other aspects pertaining to travel:
Fuel economy, servicing, ergonomics, wind and bum protection, crashability (how well protected are components in a small fall) etc.

These can only be discussed by people that know the bike so it would be enlightening.

Perhaps CCM needs to sponsor Charlie and Ewan on a Long Way Whine to promote the bike as a credible tourer lol. Just please don't give Ewan a video camera to record a journal, unless we give a quote,' stop the bitching please' (Pickford, 2014) lol!

Perhaps the most fair way to evaluate the bike is to give it a rating, say 1-10, in various categories pertaining to requirements of a travel bike such as:

Basic price
costs of modifications
parts availability
dealer support network
ease of service
service interval
synthetic vs non synthetic oil (availability and cost)
weight and its distribution on the bike
fuel economy
reliability
handling with luggage
ergonomics
crashability
technical ability in rough terrain
suspension and comfort
comfort on tar
known problems for which spares required
sensitivity to low grade fuel
ground clearance and water clearance


Standard things usually measured like HP, torque, power to weight ratio, gear ratios etc are not as relevant. Only their secondary impact on things like technical ability and comfort on tar, fuel economy etc

Then grade other popular bikes such as the BMW GS range, the KTM adv bikes, Suzukis, kawasakis, Yamahas, Hondas and see how the CCM compares. THis is in effect the trade offs people consider when selecting a bike for the type of riding they do and where they will ride.

So people who have ridden the bike, scribble away and compare to bikes the rest of us know.

There is much more to a price than the manufacturing cost
 

That can be found elsewhere, such as in the link that I provided.

However, it is early days (again, production starts next month), and with the Rand going south over the last few years the 450GP is unlikely to be on sale in South Africa, for a while at least.
The same goes for the USA with the US$ now at 1.7 to the £.

CCM will be able to make a living with sales into the European market? Let's see how it goes, and, please let us not assume that a bike, any bike, will have the same asking price in each and every market.

I'm quite sure the CCM will be sold in the USA. You don't pass up a market that's 20 times the size of any other. And yes ... prices WILL be adjusted market to market. We pay in Dollars (generally) what Brits pay in UKP. Been that way a long long time. The lower the dollar goes ... the better for CCM.

CCM will have to compete ... but there are PLENTY of newly wealthy Dot.com hipsters here and thousands of One Percenter rich guys out there to support CCM. Just look at the booming sales of $25,000 BMW GSA's, $20K KTM 1190's, Ducati Panigle's, MV Augusta. Sales are better than they've ever been, records broken for BMW. Look it up.

So, IMO, there is a "niche" for CCM in the USA. But they'll need professional marketing to "Sell" the bike and a small dealer network of some kind. CCM are NOT new in the USA. I know of at least two past generations were sold at a local dealer here in San Francisco going back to the 90's. I'm betting that relationship will continue. The local dealer now sell Ducati, MV Augusta, Triumph, Moto Guzzi and formerly Husqvarna ... and could possibly take on CCM. Or ... the KTM/Aprilia dealer down the block may take them? Dunno.

The last generation of CCM they carried did not sell well. Bikes sat on the floor unsold for a couple years. Time will tell. Hope the new bike can do well!

bier

Quote: Mollydog
Taiwan has struggled for independence since 1949, but these days it's widely recognized as being part of CHINA (PRC), just like Hong Kong. But still somewhat independent of China ... but make no mistake ... the PRC are really in control. Check your recent history.

Depends on who's view your listening to :
They have not had proper diplomatic relations since 1949 and china bangs the big guns threatening invasion - recentlya meeting took place :
While Beijing views this week's meeting as a harbinger of reunification with Taiwan, however far down the road, Taiwan likely hopes diplomatic engagement with Beijing will ultimately lead to an opening for the island to formally declare its independence.

Quote; Mollydog
Having done a factory tour of Yamaha in Japan ... I can assure you "mass produced" does not mean "tacked together budget bike".

I am not saying Yamaha are tacked together budget bikes they do produce well engineered, generally reliable and quality bikes for the budget - but many of the range are bike built to a budget - finish can be and often is poor (check most yamaha's that have tried to get through a UK winter - rust, peeling paint etc etc - I once owned a Yamaha - the underside of the tank was not even painted !! mind you that was many years ago) and components are generally more likely to be basic to mid range except on flagship models (R1 etc) Ducati /KTM / maybe CCM etc all use fairly well top end gear but have top end prices ( so built to a bigger budget - maybe doh).

Quote: Mollydog
This all sounds good and hopeful

Yep your right on that and we are back to my very rosy and psychedelic specs on that one.

Tchus jake.bier

No accounting for American tastes. After all, Harleys sell well there :rofl:

And they are not a big seller anywhere else!

Perhaps CCM needs to add 100 kg of chrome, and offer an engine option that goes potato-potato lol!

:offtopic:
Don't you know HD has a patent on that Potato sound? :rofl: seriously, they actually tried to patent "the sound" ... they were laughed out of court.

Harley's are indeed a big deal here ... I still can't figure it out! doh And I've been trying since 1985 when the Evo engine came along and HD's stopped breaking down every 5 miles. Now, they go everywhere! :censored:
Why guys want to dress up like B movie Pirates and set off car alarms all day long is beyond me! :ban:

The FACT is, HD DO sell well ... very well, all over the world. UK, Norway, France, Japan ... any place riders have more money than brains.

On several occasions we've run into BIG HD tours where 40 or 50 Brits, Frogs ... or whatever ... fly to USA and either rent or bring their own bikes over. Then ride around the popular tourist spots for a couple weeks and fly home ... Las Vegas is always on the menu'. As you say .... No accounting for American tastes ... and the tastes of others too apparently! :smartass:

I ran into a 40 rider strong group of French in Death Valley a few years back.
All in very tasteful leathers ... much nicer and more stylish than your typical HD riding Yank. Nicest group of folks you could ever meet. MUCH nicer than our typical One Percenter, Hells Angel "wanna-be" crowd we so often see here who sometimes won't even lOOK AT YOU if you're not on an HD. These are the guys are the same who give you the "Thumps Down" sign when you ride by on the road. :thumbdown:

LOL! a patent on the sound? What happens if you have a twin and one cylinder not firing and it sounds like it is about to stall any second? will HD sue you? :rofl:

I thought when the V-rod came out HD was finally starting to build a half decent bike. But it didn't sell. Didn't have the potato sound. That is more important than power and a smooth motor I guess. The workmanship on HDs can't be so bad or the bike would vibrate itself into a pile of nuts and bolts very quickly.

The pirate get up is humourous, but to pay so much money for stuff that looks so ragged?

One day I knew it was Christmas. I went to Johannesburg for Christmas lunch with an old mate and on the way back a HD rider actually waved at me. The rest of the time I figure their hands are too numb from the vibrations and they can't smile because their fillings may rattle out if they unclench their teeth.

The sports bike crowd are the ones that don't wave. They nod. They can't wave or they would fall forward and smash their chin on the bars.

I tested a new V-Rod for the magazine .. had it for about a week. When I took it back to HD dealer in San Fran, got stuck in traffic ...it overheated and puked coolant all over my leathers! Can you imagine that? :thumbdown:
Really pissed me off. (and burnt too!)

The engine was designed by Porsche. It was quite good ... but the bike DID NOT HANDLE WELL. It got a negative review from me.

NOTE: I can tell you've never ridden modern HD's. (I've tested and ridden dozens in the last 20 years) HD's are actually quite smooth above idle. At idle .... everything S H A K E S ... but above 2000 rpm, it all smoothes out nicely.
Then you hit the rev limiter ... a cruel joke!
I pretty much hated every HD I tested except for Buell's .. but not because of vibration. They have LOTS of issues ... starting with really cheap nuts and bolts that look like they came from the local hardware store.

Later Buells were some of my favorite bikes. Great handling bikes, fun. Totally different animal than an HD. Too bad HD discontinued them. I tested 3 different generations of Buells starting in the late 90's. Quirky but good bikes while they lasted. But Erik is back building race bikes with India's Hero backing him. They got in the top ten at WSB ... not bad for a team built from the ashes of ruin. :D Go Erik! (a really nice guy!)

No I never rode a Harley. Im not that old! I figure maybe a HD when Im too old to get a leg over a proper bike. I just see them vibrate next to me and figure no thanks.

I just see no application for them except when Im an old man.

I used to think that. Rattly antiques fit only for towing agricultural machinery or powering ditch pumps and the only thing that made Brit stuff look modern.
Give me some hotshot Jap two stroke any day.

Well I've grown up as well as grown older and Harleys, in their slow vegetable way, have evolved as well - and you know what, I feel exactly the same! :rofl:

The only difference is that now part of me can appreciate the 19thC spirituality in them - a bit like a beam engine or a steam train. They're a modern version of the covered wagon (and probably no quicker!), something for the pioneering spirit. Why they sell in the UK I've no idea- we don't have pioneering spirits over here. Maybe a Victorian limited edition with a tall chimney and made out of brick would be popular. Actually, that's pretty much a 60's Triumph.

On the up side Eric Buell did manage to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I loved the couple I rode and seriously looked at a buying one. The only thing that put me off was the back yard nature of the build quality - says someone who then went and bought a CCM :rofl:

hello ill be honest here ive kept from posting on the hubb as i feel a bit intimidated ..with all the expieriance and long distance travellers and i take my hat off to them .....

now i have the oppertunity and time to do it

i wont as more then a few weeks away from my family and especially my grandchildren will not allow me to do it ..my family ties are far too strong ...that said i ride locally and abroad every year ..for the pleasure of feeling free and being on my bike

i have ridden bikes since 7 years old and off road bikes since 12 i am 57 years old ...in all the time i have travelled around all be it not around the world i have never fallen out with a teamate and have never had so much as a harsh word ...and would never hesitate to help a fellow rider



indeed if i travel with someone i would do anything to help a fellow rider out and expect the same ....and we have always found the same common ground ...namly motorcycles and the enthuisasum that comes with riding them

i have no connection with ccm whatsoever other than ordering one and say as i find ..if you dont believe that ....you dont know me which of courseyou dont

i am no ones uncle tom

....i make no appoligy for liking and supporting the bike ..its done what its supposed to and hasnt dissapointed me in any way ..it is open to anyone in the uk to ride by appointment ...so there no need to trust anyone elses opinion ..especially mine it seems ....???

i went down 18 months ago and they showed me the prototype ..no working tank but i just loved the narrowness and lightness of it .....i considered it could keep me riding longer off road than the big bikes ..i keep falling and stalling ..........so because i puta deposit down there and then chassis number six .......and then 14 months later there was delays
homaglation ..suppliers ectect ...they lent me the bike as i was one of the original cusomers and i had booked the taffy dakar portugal and a gatesgarth pass weekend ...expecting delivery
.......so thats how i got to ride the bike and thats why i know a bit more about it than most ......
belive me they took a chance as i will post as i will find ....
strangly i just want to get the bike now and dissapear off the internet ..other than my meets and runs as ive had enough of this virtual bollocks .....it really isnt me at all

and ive had endless disscussions with folks online ..who have never taken the oppertunity to ride one

..and they still take every oppertunity to kick the bike in the nuts .. the frame will snap ..it will blow up after 15 hours ....no way will the oil last a trip ect ect .....well evidence is building to the contary ... im pissed off with it now i just want to get my bike and ride it .....20months anyone can get a little stirr crazy

the above description of me a s a person and fellow rider is unjustified ....and written by a guy i have never ridden with or met and as far as i can tell is downright uncalled for ..ive looked at the website and its all very impressive ..i admire your expiriance and achievments ...

.but please mr brighty at least try pull the hood off before you shoot a guy between the eyes

..as it is to all the other dozens of adventure book riders and freinds ive travelled with at home and abroad over the years ..

you may be surprised where and what some of the abr crowd have done in there own litte unpubisised .. way and indeed how good some of them are handling a bike .... novice to expert and anything inbetween ...but at least we stick tgether and dont diss eachother irrespective of ability expeiriance or bike

all id say is if anything ive written about the ccm 450 is objectonal or my arguments for and against it are not your cup of tea thats fine .....
but if you want to try and dismiss and belittle somone or label them ...... on line

at least have the decency to meet him ride with him first ...maby ride the bike too

.... and then form your opinion before putting it it in to print ......

in good faith... steve halsall .. aka ordinary guy

aka ..... adventure book reader ....

Hi Steve
Thanks for your reply and welcome to the hubb. The hubb isn't about people going round the world, but whatever website floats your boat is fine by me. I found the ABR forum unwelcoming and cliquey, but that's just my opinion. I also went to an ABR meeting once, but decided it wasn't my cup of tea and left on the Saturday, having only stayed Friday night (the curry was excellent). Each to their own. Sorry to tar you with my same perceived brush.

I quote Walkabout's comment again, to which I replied. I took offense to the "just stop bleating" comment. I have a problem with giving a view and being told to shut up, rather than the person responding to my comments regarding the questionable history of the BMW G450 (same engine as in the new CCM) and the brand CCM (have gone bust twice) itself. If you didn't say "Just stop bleating", then I apologise for getting your back up. If you did, I stand by my views.

It's not apples/pears at all. We are comparing 400/450 cc dirtbikes with each other (ccm vs. drz, wr, exc, xr). We're not comparing fat ktm 950-990/bmws gs/triumph/12 tenere with the CCM

I'll overlook all the other emotive comments that aren't relevant.

Looking forward to pint of https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...ezZ2Uv4RUEz-v2 tonight. Baaaa

Video
 

Hi,

here is another vid of my ride with the GP 450 Adventure:



Hope you enjoy

So long,

da Wolf

Interview with Austin Clews
 

Last week I talked to Austin Clews:



So long,

da Wolf

The UK folks who actually have ordered, own and ride this bike continue to write about it elsewhere = the UK based ABR.

From the CCM staff at the UK motorcycle show in late November:
CCM started delivering the bikes a few weeks ago and have exported them also: containers of bikes have been shipped to Australia, USA and I think it was South Africa (could be wrong on that detail).
The current waiting list for a build was one month as of the dates of the UK bike show.
Within the UK, being a bespoke build and not a mass produced machine, you can meet with and talk with the people who assemble the bikes rather than with sales staff in the dealerships.

Finaly I've also got mine :thumbup1:



So long,

da Wolf

Excellent enjoy it ! nice Christmas present.

Tchus Jake.

[QUOTE=Jake;489794]Excellent enjoy it ! nice Christmas present.

Tchus Jake.[/QUOTE

Ditto!
Looks like the white van man met you part of the way to deliver the new bike.

@ Jack, Dave: thx!

Yes - he has been on his way to Switzerland to deliver the first bikes to the swiss CCM-dealer and I met him in France just before he crossed the (EU)-border to take over my GP 450. Worked perfect and I didn't need to hire a shipping company.

Since I have to wait for registration till 2015, what is really very hard for me :( I took some photos in the garage yesterday:

http://up.picr.de/20488885gs.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488886yf.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488887ei.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488888lc.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488889qp.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488890la.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488891wq.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488892qv.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20489015jd.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20489016ez.jpg

http://up.picr.de/20488893hv.jpg

Love it!

So long,

da Wolf

A beautiful bike!
In every picture I have seen so far the bike comes without a chain guard and it was the same at the UK show; from memory none of those bikes on display were fitted with a guard.
At the show I think I saw tapped holes in the top of the swinging arm for fitting a guard - are they an optional extra?

Some words of caution
 

After previously slagging off the Ccm brand and the BMW g450 donor engine I went and test rode the Ccm 450 at a relatively recent travel biker's event in the UK. In a perverse sort of way I wanted to like the bike. However I didn't. Some people might think I'm just trolling around causing mischief. I'm not!

I would not recommend this bike to any friends of mine. On the paved road it felt okish. On the dirt it was downright dangerous. The front end geometry and handling felt all wrong. The throttle response was either on or off. The vibes through the pegs were too severe.

I've plenty of experience of similar bikes ( drz400e and BMW x challenge).3 other people with long adventure riding cvs had similar opinions.

If you want to buy one of these bikes please take an extensive off road test ride before you buy. It may be your thing but it most definitely wasn't mine.

CCM 450 at Stockholm MC Mässan 22.-25.Jan 2015

Now we have a green light: one CCM GP 450 Adventure will be on display at the Stockholm Motorcycle Show this month at stand A33:62 (explore360). This will be the bike orderd by me, including some nice extras like adjustable windscreen, engine guard, adjustable back damper, soft luggage system, among others.

By then we will also have a rough plan in place for two test riding events this spring: most likely one in the Stockholm area and one bigger event in Delsbo at the dealer NCCR's place! We are aiming to get several bikes over from the UK for those guided group test rides, more about this when the logistics are fixed.

So for those in Sweden: welcome at MC Mässan, let's talk adventure there!

PS: I can absolutely not agree to Chris opinion, I have been on a long ride on the bike recently in the UK. But of course at those test ride events everyone will be able to get a first hand impression her/himself!

Good man minkyhead!
 

Mr. minkyhead,

THANK YOU :clap: for all of the information and FIRSTHAND no BS account of your experience with the GP450. I have read what you have posted on three websites- you are one of the best sources of good information, from what I see. As well, forums are enhanced by your kind but passionate prose! :mchappy:

I wish anyone well with their new bike and hope its a happy journey.

They look ace but then so did my CCM 604 back in 1999, it had lots of trick parts and looked so sweet, but looks arent everything and I'm afraid thats where the dream ended.

To put it mildly it was the most unreiliable heap of shite, when it ran it was a joy it let me down so many times it ruined all that, I was lucky to enjoy a trip to Portugal and back across the Picos Europa but I could have done the same on a Honda without all the heartache and I would probably still own the XR 400 that I should have purchased instead of the CCM.

I remember the week before I picked mine up MCN suddenly ran an article on how tempremental they were and I very nearly cancelled mine!!doh

Its all well and good saying people are giving negative opinions, well the negativity comes from a high cost product from a company with a very sketchy background. If I had 8k to invest in a bike I don't think I would take a gamble on an unproven product that could completely ruin an adventure. Are CCM still knocking out chineese junk re branded with red plastics and snazzy graphics for double what they cost elsewhere? Yeah great company destroying the future of biking by selling utter tat to youngsters who could be put off motorcycling for life and don't have the spare money to keep replacing engines made from jelly.

I really do hope this new venture works for them because its not fair to charge 8k for a bike that the customers are going to develop and test for you.

Just make sure that if you venture far away from civilisation on one of these that you take a mate on a proven bike to bring you home.

Have you seen and examined or ridden the GP450? If not, then your words lack the relevancy of someone who has spent time riding the moto.

In my 45 years of motorcycle riding, motos have failed me- including transmissions on a Suzuki and a Yamaha, and electrical problems and general craziness of a Husky CR360 like Mikkola used. As well a Suzuki did well for two seasons traveling, as has a Yamaha that is very good but tends to get a lot of unreasonable illogical dissing online- much like the above.

What is online about the GP450 supports overwhelmingly that it is a very good moto, and thus far no big problems showing up.

One of these bikes has been used to follow the 2015 Dakar race; pics in the link -
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...t=10&start=170

Both you guys make fair points. Mtnguy, is the Noob here and may want to consider reading what's gone before and what's been said about this bike on another thread here:
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ure-bike-69964

Pretty much covers it all. I'm on there with a few opinions as is Stuxtttr and several other knowledgeable HUBB members with VAST experience. it's 20 some pages and well worth the read if you want a broader ranges of voices on the CCM450 GP, the companies history and it's future. Very useful thread with a few diversions.

All that said ... one can't deny the questionable history of CCM. But for me, I'm totally willing to give CCM the benefit of the doubt. Lets just not forget that the CCM "Phoenix" has risen from ashes at least twice (I'm aware of) ... and I know little about them, never owned or ridden one. Maybe more to their history ... :innocent: ??

But seems they've gone back to "ze old drawing board" more than once ... and this bike really does look good (IMO). But they have carried over a few design elements I disagree with .... namely the swingarm shaft going through the countershaft. This is Horst Leitner's (ATK) idea ... and failed on several bikes ... including BMW's own World Enduro GP race bikes when David Knight was riding for them. It's also a BAD IDEA to have on a travel bike for a number of reasons. (remove swingarm for sprocket change or changing chain? doh)

I rode ATK's in the 90's and watched these systems fail ... in person. The rear brake rotor was also located up on the countershaft! doh They burnt up... literally. Some say it helps handling. If it's such a good idea how come no world champion race bikes use it? NONE of the Japanese use it ... but I do know they tried it ... back in the 1980 ...and realized it was NOT SUITED for a Moto cross or off road bike. They never went back to it.
See also:
ATK motorcycles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ATK models & brand history - autoevolution

Here in California, my local dealer carried CCM going back to the early to mid 90's. Not positive, but IIRC the first one I saw used a Rotax motor? Next one I saw a few years later used (I think) either a Suzuki DR650 motor or a DRZ400 motor?? ... don't recall which. The bikes looked pretty trick ... but very few were sold, dealer ended up eating it on them. I doubt he'll be signed up to carry anymore CCM, given his 10 years (or so) of experience with them.

I wish CCM all the best ... and many have very short memories and don't do research. So who knows? Perhaps CCM have a shot at success. We DO need such a bike in this class, that we all pretty much agree on. But is the CCM more a Race Bike more suited to racing the Dakar than going RTW on a budget? :smiliex:

:scooter:

Have you?


Please share the website links pro and con the ccm that support this statement.

No, I have not offered opinion other than about what I see online. Your comment seems to be the exception. You give puffed-up derision of experiences related by a decent, down to earth guy sharing his experiences. Apparently your brief ride on a moto trumps all of the other experiences given, in detail? At least in your mind, I am sure.


I think that you and most others reading this know about what has been posted, but thanks for that arrogant challenge.

CCM 450 Adventure - ADVrider

http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...happy-day.html

Edit to add- Thanks to the above posting I read some of the previous thread. Chris, you speak as if you have very serious hatred toward anything CCM in that thread. I just find it distasteful that such arrogant and derisive comments are railed against the real and extensive accounts of a decent, regular guy. Yep, got it, nothing from CCM EVER is ok with Chris. Thanks.

Yes, sounds like problems in the past. I think one can make that case for any brand of moto. Even Honda had some duds.

The data that is accumulating in regard to the CCM GP450 so far seems ok. Wait and see.

Yep.

Thanks to folks who take the time to give useful information, And huge thanks to Minkyhead, ViennaWolfe, the guy at the Dakar, and others who actually ride the moto.:clap:

Early days, something could go wrong, but for now the GP450 looks good. That said, for me personally it will be unlikely but not out of the question that I would go for the GP450. I like what I currently ride, it suits the geography of my area.

But it looks like this CCM GP450 is a well done effort, as far as it has been shown thus far.

You have clearly stated a key cultural difference between the "good old Brit" nation and the "upstart, breakaway colonials".
In the UK we just don't do "forgive", never mind "forget", especially in business.

I think this results in a lack of entrepreneurs in Britain: much business research has been done on this matter - we punish miscreant businesses very harshly compared with the business law in the USA.

I think I have read, or heard in conversation with the CCM staff at the UK show last November, that the front sprocket can be removed without detaching the swinging arm: hopefully, one or more of the new owners can confirm if this is the case.

I hope I'm wrong on that ... but seems it was stated early on in discussions on the CCM? Not really sure. Anyone confirm?

Where and how does the swingarm attach? Does main splined drive shaft go through swing arm and countershaft sprocket?

I know the BMW 450 GP race bikes used this system. With this system I would also be concerned with bearing wear. Normally swingarm bearings aren't something RTW riders need to worry about very often. But with that system?
Dunno ? :confused1:

I'll have a look on CCM site and report back.
EDIT:
OK, here is what is stated on CCM website:

Swingarm
Race track derived rear swing arm using a pivot point near to concentric with the output shaft to reduce chain tension variation and increase traction on loose surfaces. Careful controlled lateral flex leads to a swingarm giving a smooth and predictable ride on the road with the strength and ability to handle the toughest terrain possible.

I question the "race track derived" ... what major OEM race team has ever used such a system besides BMW's very brief
involvement in World Enduro? The above statement seems bit vague, anyone have a more detailed technical explanation?

You questioned stuxtttr whether he had ever ridden one. Hence it would seem reasonable to ask you the same question. Or not.

You admit you've neither ridden, nor seen one in the flesh.

I have and have spoken to several people with a longer adventure biking CVs that most, who have also tried it. They concurred with my view. At the end of my "ride report" I suggested due diligence be carried out.

Of the 2 links you posted, how many of the unique posters have ridden one and how many comments are just idle chit chat (not a problem in itself, but not something most people would base a bike-buying decision on)? And how many are the same people contributing to the 3 (here and the 2 you link to) parallel threads.

A noob with no profile / public CV / signature completed and bandying about with emotive hyperbole like "hatred", "arrogant", "distasteful" etc in a thread started 7 months ago, could, to some, seem like the actions of an internet troll.

Why not book a test ride and report back with something that moves the discussion forward?

Unless there was more then one ATK-design their solution was pretty different. I think their aim was to generate a parallelogram to get a paralever-effect.

Unlike the G450X-engine the sprocket was not placed at the swingarm.
BTW: Changing the sprocket on a G450X takes 15-20 minutes..

The brake looks a bit funny, but it will save more then a kg unsprung mass.

http://www.pulpmx.com/sites/default/...teel17%238.jpg

Yes, many ATK designs over the years ... (find info in the links I posted). There is quite a long history with ATK. On again, Off again production for YEARS! MANY designs that Horst Leitner patented. Only a few bikes had the rear brake at the countershaft. I rode one ... a 250 two stroke if I recall. It was a good bike for 1988 :thumbup1: but that brake caused problems. :thumbdown: A friend owned it ... then someone stole it! Never seen again!

I also rode (and worked on) other ATK's (mid 90's) ... Rotax 600 ones used by San Francisco Police for about 2 years, then all sold off ... cheap. IIRC, these bikes all had the main shaft going through the front sprocket and swingarm, like the GS450 and CCM. If set up right, good bikes but very fiddly to deal with, but good strong motor.

I'm no expert on ATK or GS450's, ATK's were a LONG time ago for me ... but I DO remember David Knight commenting on the BMW a few years back ... he gave up millions and quit the team due to not getting on with the bike. :innocent: But his team mates were getting podiums on the SAME bike. So who knows? :confused1:

I believe it was on SOME ATK bikes, not the ones with the brake there as shown in your pic ... I believe Leitner holds a patent for this design ... you may find his patents in links I posted ... I think?

Yes, true, there were always some good things in Leitner's designs and his bikes were always LIGHT WEIGHT ... but some had fatal flaws too. He nearly made it. Hung on for years here in the USA.

For me, I would not want to break loose a big swing arm bolt when on the road. On many bikes this type of bolt is torqued to about 100 to 120 ft. lbs.
I have Nothing in my tool kit that could handle that. :frown:
Perhaps CCM have made it easier to access the sprocket? I hope so. They've thought through just about everything ... so maybe it's a moot point?

I hope CCM can manage enough sales to get some solid feedback on the bikes long term performance and reliability.

Love the look and concept of the bike ... but for me? .... too old, to out of shape and too poor to ever own such a Gem ... and I'd never take it to "unstable" regions of the world! Kudos and good luck to those who will! bier

tried it liked it
 

Hi all. Tried the GP450 at the factory on Tuesday. First of all what a lovely place, staff all friendly and helpful.
The bike.
It was just what I had expected and hoped it would be. It does instantly feel comfortable. Does zip along nicely and can accelerate/overtake easily. Does feel amazing going over mucky paths and I would guess due to the very low weight it would easily cope with much more than I managed to throw at it, feeling more confidence inspiring after two minutes than my F800 did after two years.
Most impressive was the build quality of the machine, incredible! I looked at the bikes on the prod line in various stages of completion and they looked like engineering works of art, very impressed.
The only question (not exactly a criticism) is the engine characteristics. Although it did everything from ticker to high revving overtakes it did feel slightly rough edged and racey. It didn't seem to feel happy at a constant throttle, it felt much better when accelerating or braking.
My reservations about it not being a big single were answered when I saw the bike. That BMW 450 engine it a miniature work of art and matches the rest of the bike perfectly.
So would I buy one... Yes, definitely. Just have to find the money as it's not cheap but neither is it overpriced for an off the shelf genuine adventure bike

No I have not test rode a new CCM, my nearest dealer is currently 86 Miles away! (i live in the midlands just off the M1) do the factory send out a mechanic everytime it needs a service etc like Mclaren do?

Obviously motorcycle dealers are rushing to stock these bikes.

When the oppurtunity arises I will happily test ride a CCM, hell if they want me to they can send me a bike and I will try it for a month and give an honest review.

One comment mentions that us Brits don't give companies a chance? How many chances does a company get before the wise buyer goes elsewhere?

I hope that CCM have turned things around and that local jobs are secured and that in 12-18 months time we are getting lots of owners reporting back on great reliability and continued customer service. :scooter:keepcalm

So, registration is finished and the first km's with my GP 450 are done:



So long,

da Wolf

Thanks for sharing; the running in seems to be going very well, even for those T63s.

Good film. I trust your Oscar acceptance speech is going to be less embarrassing than that Benedict Cucumber blokes?


Andy

Vienna-Wolfe - really nice film - it least it shows the bike and engine is capable and controllable in pretty slippy conditions I like that ride out. Excellent.

Chris I liked your comment - simply because its your opinion having rode the bike on the road and off road i think for about 45 minutes to an hour you were away. I was there when you did the ride - I can vouch that you were hoping to like the bike and that you had told me over breakfast that it would be good to be proven wrong on your opinion of CCM and the bike. However on your return you really were unhappy with the handling - You were upfront to the CCM lads as well at the time.

Your comments are based on your experience whether folk agree or not with your view - they are your views from your ride. - so fair enough.

A number of riders did dislike the bike, however an equal number loved the bike - its a bit of a marmite bike it appears. Love it or Hate it. No middle ground.

I did not ride the bike as I was not in a position to do any off roading at the time - so did not take the bike out - still to me its one stunning piece of machinery and engineering. Now wish i had taken one just down the road for a short road ride that day.

jake.

It's a little dicey taking opinions from random riders whose experience on such bikes may be limited and who's dirt bike back ground on REAL dirt bikes may be nil.

What needs to happen is what happens to ALL new bikes: Testing. Collect 3 or 4 other similar bikes in the CCM's class, let Novice to Expert level riders have good go on them ... tally up the results. Hopefully not just a 1/2 hour ride but more like a week riding ALL the bikes in question, ridden over a variety of terrain, loaded and unloaded of gear.

If I were editor, off the top of my head I would pick from the following road legal bikes to include in the Comparo to the CCM:

Husqvarna TE310 (made by KTM)
KTM 450EXC
KTM 350EXC
Yamaha 250R
Beta 450 dual sport (road legal)

Also in contention?
Honda 450RR Rally Bike (if available)
Suzuki DRZ400S

Take them all out and do some hard riding on them. The Novices would not be complete dirt bike Noobs, but just not AA level pro racers. They ALL should be good street riders as well as competent off road riders. :mchappy:

+1 to Marmite bike. The great thing about the vast majority of this HUBB thread, compared to the ABR thread that was linked in post #56 is that here people can discuss and disagree without people having tantrums about it. Elsewhere if you go against the forum's (self proclaimed) opinion leaders' topic for the next love-in, they get really shirty. Hey ho, good luck to them.

The HUBB has possibly matured: Anyone remember the aggro here a few years ago when some people dared to criticise that well known brand from Germany :innocent:

Never bothered reading the advrider thread, so have no opinion on it.


Opinions are like ar$eholes. We all have one and what someone spouts is 99% of the time just hot air or pure brown stuff.

Having said that, most of the nay-sayers that Jake refers to are experienced long distance travellers, hobby or ex-professional enduro riders. All were potential customers. They're not now. They'll stick to their crf250s /xr400s/ drz400s etc.

Assuming all CCMs aren't just a mess straight out the box, the bike I rode might have behaved better if it had been set up right. If it was just set up badly, then it's a high risk marketing strategy to send a couple of dog-bikes to an event where every person attending (+/-200) was a potential customer.

I've had a go. On road and off-road.

Like Chris I was un-impressed. I didn't HATE it but I think I was expecting a lot more for that kind of price.

The engine felt horrible. Vibey and twitchy and the strangely geared. It was hard to find a gear that I was happy in. However it was still in prototype stage. I don't know if they are/will still making any changed since I rode it in late 2014.

I also didn't like the geometry. But I put that down to the bikes being set up for other riders as they were demo's.

On a whole, I would love to see CCM do well. I'd love to support a British brand.

However, I would never recommend a friend to buy one as an adventure bike as I rode it. There are just far too many trusted, proven an arguably better bikes in that category for a quite a few thousand quid cheaper.

In fact a ten year old DRZ400 with just some basic mods would make the CCM look unnecessary an can be picked up for under £2000.

And would that 450 lump and space aged frame survive a RTW off-road adventure ??? Is anyone testing it ???

bier Good point! I wonder if CCM are perhaps still figuring out their customer base. Bit late to be doing that at this late date ...
Seems like the long term, long distance RTW testing should have been done over a year ago, before things were locked in?

Maybe they could sponsor a team or two to get out there and wave the flag?
Get some press, establish some cred?

But at the asking price ... it may be a stretch for many young budding ADV riders?

[QUOTE "No I have not test rode a new CCM, my nearest dealer is currently 86 Miles away! (i live in the midlands just off the M1) do the factory send out a mechanic everytime it needs a service etc like Mclaren do?
When the oppurtunity arises I will happily test ride a CCM, hell if they want me to they can send me a bike and I will try it for a month and give an honest review."


Have you ever bought anything in your life where you get to try it for a month?!

I live in the midlands also but I thought how lucky I was that the factory where they're made is only up the road from me

One of them glass half full half numpty things I guess

da Wolfe, just as an update to the post above, there is a newish thread that comes from some of those in the UK who own and ride this bike; the production version that you own.
You might like the owner info in there.
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...he-owners.html

Yeah, tell me about it!

The list you've given above is great for an afternoon's dirt riding, but what Minkyhead and others (including me) are looking for is a lightweight adventure tourer.

A bike that's designed to be used for long distance trips, able to cruise at the legal limit, weather protection, capable of taking luggage for a long trip, decent fuel range, good lighting and as agile as possible off tarmac.

So I don't think most of the bikes you've quoted above are comparable to the GP450. The competitor that comes up time and time again is the KTM 690 R. Both have long service intervals (10,000km for the KTM and 8,000 for the CCM), both can carry touring luggage. The GP450 has the edge on fuel capacity and touring fairing, the 690 R has the edge on performance.

I had an inconclusive test ride of the GP450 (road tyres, only 500m of off tarmac, no luggage). But after a bad experience with BMW I'm not prepared to be a 'beta tester' again for a new range of bikes so I went with the 690 R and last month concluded a four-week 7,800 km tour using a practically standard bike with zero mishaps.

I wish CCM well and might well be interested in the GP450 a couple of years down the line.

.

I just read Minkyhead's comments on his CCM on that other ADV forum ... good stuff. But seems to me he's saying a well fettled DRZ400S could match the CCM tit for tat (and at 1/4 the cost) ... might even out last it? Dozens of DRZ400S riders have done cross continent and beyond. No news there. The WR250R is also a contender and is PROVEN ADV Travel bike.

The bikes listed are ALL street legal bikes ... but would they be "as good" as the CCM on long runs with lots of highway, fully loaded? Dunno? Lots depends on set up.

I'm fairly certain the DRZ400S and WR could do it ... and, if you're now including the 690, then why not add the DR650 in the mix as well?

Those are good points :thumbup1: but as I stated, we know the DRZ can do it ... and the WR250R too.

Many have done tours fully loaded and reports are good on both. Don't know about the Husky's or KTM's but reports on the new Beta dual sports is very good so far. And realistically, the CCM ain't got no cred as of yet. So it's really still in the "wait and see" phase, yes?

If KTM 690 can match CCM off road...then perhaps CCM have work to do! doh

Having ridden the 690 On and Off road I know what it is and what it isn't. It's not a full on Enduro trail bike, and in my estimation the CCM should be the Better bike off road, yes?
On road, of course the KTM 690 has a big advantage. No contest there ... with longevity being the only question.

In all this we have to calculate value and costs ... and of course intention. How much better is a £8K CCM over buying a used DRZ400S for £2000 and putting another £1000 into it? And how much will the new CCM owner put into his bike? No bike is perfect from new. So that £8000 figure could go UP.

You could do the same comparison with a DR650 vs. KTM 690. I could buy 3 used DR650's for the cost of one well set up 690.

No bikes last forever ... I prefer cheap, cheerful ... and expendable. Real travel bikes live a rough and unpredictable life ... and some come to a sad end. I'd rather lose my £2000 DR650 or DRZ400, then a £8000 CCM or 690.

It's illogical to compare the cost of any new bike against the cost of secondhand machines, the new bike bound to lose out and I don't see how that fact advances this discussion at all? By all means make that comparison several years down the line when there are secondhand GP450s to work with math with.

I don't think the DRZ400 has been sold in the UK for years.

And once you start bringing the DR650 into the argument you are no longer talking about lightweight, any number of bikes fit into the weight bracket of 30kg over the GP450 weight.

I don't know anything about the WR250, but are you sure that it could stand up to 70-80mph motorway cruising? i know my XR400 was stressed at those speeds.

I said the 690 R has the edge on performance, I wasn't implying anything on the off tarmac ability. In fact I don't know how the 690R and GP450 compare off tarmac.

But I think you are coming from the wrong angle. Yes the KTM 450 EXC would undoubtedly be better off tarmac than either the 690 R or the GP450, but the GP450 isn't meant to be an offroad god, it's supposed to be a lightweight adventure tourer with decent off tarmac ability, something that the 450 EXC would not be good at.

So...
- lightweight
- ability to take full luggage load
- good fuel range
- suitable for long distance trips (service interval)
- able to cruise at the legal limit
- good weather protection
- good lighting
- agile off tarmac

Yes, it can. I own one and use it extensively for touring. I have added a larger tank, uprated the springs and put on soft panniers. With its 10K service interval, 48K valve adjustment interval and general build quality, I'd dare say it's a very competent adventure touring bike.

That's good then. The service interval is high and it's extremely light at just 118kg including oil and fuel.

But I just checked the price of the WR250 in the UK and it's £7,249 plus registration fees. So once you start making mods for additional fuel or weather protection you're starting to approach the GP450 price.

Nobody seems to have done a big touring trip yet with the GP450 and that will be the test. You'd have thought CCM would have lent one out...

Illogical? No, not really. Just reality based. Money ALWAYS matters! Anyone shopping for a "new" bike will be looking at both New and Used examples, yes? And in fact, very few end up buying new, most buy used.

Sure, they will look at ALL the bikes on offer ... and a few do choose to buy a brand new bike. But the fact is ... most riders buy a used machine. As many have pointed out ... as nice as the CCM is ...£8000 is a lot for an unproved bike from a company with a spotty history. Is that illogical?

I wasn't aware Suzuki pulled the DRZ from it's UK line up. I see used ones going on HUBB, so assumed it was still around. :innocent:

Since you brought up the 690 I just tossed out the DR650. BTW, it's the lightest dual sport in the 650 class ...except for the KTM 690.

It also covers ALL the parameters you've laid out ... and then some. Yes, even off road ability. Unless you plan your RTW trip to be entirely made up of World Enduro level single track, then a well prepared DR650 hangs in just fine on 90% of dirt tracks one is likely to ride ... and it's a lot tougher than many other bikes I could name.
Just ask the boys down under. bier

I've only test ridden one myself.
But many riders claim it's not bad on highway. (would not be my first choice for that specific task ... and it is expensive for a 250, but a very popular bike over all ... and well proven) New for New, about half the price of CCM.

Neither do I. When you said "performance" I assumed both ON and OFF road ... like it said on your list.

I tend to agree here of course ... but unless we've seen someone "trick out" a 450exc fully, we can't really know what could be done.

(BTW, speaking of "wrong angle"? I never mentioned a word about the KTM 450EXC, only listed it as a possible)

But ... the 450exc is a road legal bike and by law, has to be able to carry a passenger, so perhaps the sub frame is strong enough for luggage? Sure, gearing, range, comfort, elec. output and LOTS of the other issues to sort ... but I contend it could be done, but at a fair cost. $$$$ (not worth it IMO)

The Beta 450 or 550 on the other hand is said to be more civilized, perhaps more adaptable to a more tarmac based ADV machine? Have to wait on this one, it's a fairly new model.

Granted ... the CCM sort of have this niche to itself ... for now. Not many as flexible with good attributes for both Dirt, street, touring and travel. But IMO most riders, after doing research, will not buy it and will buy something used and Japanese instead.
bier

I don't think we are singing from the same hymn sheet. :)

The CCM GP450 is (currently) only available new. So if you are going to usefully compare it to other bikes it makes sense that they are new bikes or at least used bikes of the same value. And there's not much point comparing the GP450 with bikes that aren't available new in the UK, such as the DR650 or DRZ400. Not sure the Beta 450/550 are available either.

The WR250 isn't "new for new about half the price of a GP450", it's £7,249 and then has to have larger tank and fairing to bring it up to GP450 equivalence. BTW, I don't understand your comment, "I've only test ridden one myself" when you said earlier that you had bought an Acerbis tank for your WR250?

The 450EXC doesn't have pillion pegs and is registered as a solo. The perceived wisdom on the KTM forum is that the subframe isn't strong enough for a pillion which gives me concern about the stresses of riding off tarmac with heavy luggage and camping gear.

CCM acknowledges that the 690 R is their main competitor. When I last spoke to the company the young sales lady was claiming she had many 690 owners trading in their bikes against a new GP450. Not sure how much of this was sales talk.

I think you've got this the wrong way round. Most people who are seriously considering buying a GP450 aren't likely to then turn around and buy a ten year old £2,000 Suzuki to do up. I'm not 'knocking' any of the alternative bikes, or the idea of buying inexpensive secondhand bikes, I'm sure they are all pretty good in their niche, but it's a different niche than buying a brand new lightweight adventure touring bike.

What still concerns me though, is Chris's comments about handling. And the lack of any reports of serious trips with luggage.

.

Me thinks you're mixed up here ... Maybe you're thinking of my former WR250F? (sold a year ago) It did have an Acerbis tank ... F version not road legal, totally different bike from WR250R (F.I., different motor and lots more plus 20 kgs. heavier than F model)

I rode the WR250R on fire roads for about a 1/2 hour, did a bit of two track and 10 minutes of tarmac. That's it. (friends bike, never owned one)

In the USA MSRP for a NEW 2015 WR250R is $6690. (about £4,460 at current Xchange rate)
2015 Yamaha WR250R Specifications and Price - Motorcycle USA
So that's about half of £8,000 for CCM in UK. Yes?

No such thing as "solo" here if road legal ... has to have pegs and be pillion compliant if it's to get a plate and be DOT certified. But I doubt it'd hold a pillion anyway for long. :thumbdown:
I'm not talking about someone set on a specific bike ... just blokes shopping for bikes in general. Sure, some guys have an extra £8K burning a hole in their pocket ... and maybe they'll buy a CCM, but fact is, among that group, about 90% would go with a KTM or Husqvarna instead. (look at sales figures)

But among "average" buyers of Dual Sport/small ADV bikes ... I think they may buy used. Not a 10 year old beater, but a 3 year old Virgin that's sat in some plonker's garage since day two.
I've bought several bikes just like that! :thumbup1: :mchappy:

It is worrying ... but handling is quite subjective ... and set up is critical as well. You know all this. Still, if enough experienced riders give the bike the thumbs down on handling ... you have to consider that data. TEST RIDES RULE! :scooter:

In most of Europe the WR250F and DRZ400E are road-legal bikes, and a lot cheaper and lighter than their -R and -S counterparts. Which is probably why not a lot of WR250R-s or DRZ400S-es were sold where I live.

DRZ400 hasn't been sold new in most of Europe for at least 6 years. Same for the DR650: hasn't been sold new ever since the EURO3-regulations were introduced in January 2006.

I agree that the WR-R is a good platform for making an adventure bike. And if you throw some extra money at it you could probably get it on par with the CCM in terms of range, comfort and weather protection. Probably still coming in at under the price of the CCM. You'd also still be about 25% down on HP and 45% on torque. But if you can live with that it is an excellent option. I know a guy that happily rode his 250R all around Europe on a 3 month trip.

Apologies Mollydog, you are right, we're talking at cross purposes You're discussing the WR250R, I was costing up the WR250F.

It seems although the WR250R was sold in the UK at one stage it isn't any more. Looking at an old write-up, a new WR250R was £4,800 seven years ago.

Unfortunately we have different duties and taxes in Europe so it's difficult to get a feel using your US prices. For example the F800GS with premium pack is just $12695 (£8,600) in the US compared to £9,760 for the base machine in the UK—and that's despite the costs of shipping the bike to the US.

.

Perchance
 

Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Technical, Bike forums > Other Bikes Tech
CCM GP 450 Adventure CCM GP 450 Adventure

Does anyone have some info that is not :offtopic: ??
(I believe this may be the only thread in the HUBB that refers to this particular bike).

Sorreeee. Yes, you're right, we're way off topic.

It wasn't a worry, just an observation.
Come to think of it, the latest few posts have illustrated how different the market for motorcycles in the USA is from the UK and probably the rest of Europe.
Still :offtopic: though!

For now, CCM can sell as many of their new bike as they can manufacture I'll be bound.
As a niche, small organisation they can be "fleet of foot" compared with the big conglomorates, so lets see how things go during this year and beyond.

Over at another thread there is also discussion that has moved on a tad from the single-bike-theme, but therein the thread originator accepted some questions about a range of bikes; in other words the OP took on the move toward a wider discussion which is an important dimension to any thread IMO = ownership of the way a thread develops by the OP.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...guzzi-v7-79979

Meanwhile, quite in contrast, the questions about Suzuki products don't get a great deal of attention in "which bike":
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...or-dr650-81260

Yep, it's shame you guys get over charged. You would think that with the incredible continuing strength of the UK pound, that things would be more in line with USA prices. Bummer. But you've got the EU not far away if you can figure a way to run a bike out of France or ...?

I see your point but it's impossible to bring up discussion about one bike ...
(especially one so new and that few know much about) ... without bringing in inevitable comparisons to other "same Class" bikes. So there ... you've immediately gone off topic. What can you do? If thousands of examples of the CCM were out there on the roads then we'd have more info, more opinions, more facts. Such as it is ... lots of speculation. Nature of internet. doh

But in this case .. the CCM was always the Anchor, the center point of this thread and discussion and to which everything mentioned referred back to ... eventually. So it's all about CCM but it broadened to include lots of the competition as well. To me it's all good and an opportunity to learn.

bier

Just to add to that. the DRZ E and S are 90% the same bike. The WRF and WRR are 0% the same bike. Pretty much the only thing they share is the first 2 letters. Both are road legal in Australia as well. The WRF is an enduro bike with maintenance intervals in the hours and not at all a travel rig. Both DR's are good travel rigs if you do your homework. I'd take the DR-E over the S personally and put up with the ali subframe, but prefer the WRR over all of these mentioned.

Europe doesn't see many of these bikes because there are simply no riding areas for them. There is a massive difference on what Adv riding means between the different continents. Which shows a lot on this forum.

This is the misperception most have regards these bikes. In fact they are quite different ... and in major important areas.
I was lucky enough to attend the original DRZ400S press introduction in around 2001 or 2002. The DRZ400Z and DRZ400E had already been out since 1999. Lots different according to Suzuki, who did an hour long tech intro to the new bike, citing all the specific changes made to the new, road legal "S" model. Note: USA model, perhaps EU/OZ bikes are different?

I don't have the Press packet they passed out but off the top of my head:

1. different cylinder head, piston, cam, valve sizes, cam timing, compression ratio.
2. substantially different charging and elec. system. (all DOT electrics)
3. Different Carb : standard CV carb on S vs. Pumper FCR carb on E.
4. Sub frame .. none on E.
5. Pillion additions, and lots of EPA/DOT smog additions to "S" model.
6. suspension. totally different.
7. Internal gearing.

Those are the basic differences, but there are more.

But I DO agree that either one would make a good travel bike and I too prefer E model (owned one) over the S model. But in the end ... if really doing it, I'd take the S model for practical considerations even though the E is MUCH better off road ... and much closer to a CCM if one were comparing them straight up. bier

Fair call. I was aware of most of those, but tried to point it out relative to the Yammy comparison who share next to no parts. Thanks for clarifying though.

Getting back on the topic of the thread, sales of the GP450 continue, in the UK at least:-
http://www.adventurebikerider.com/fo...at-bolton.html

The earlier thread from ABR (it's a Brit website so naturally they talk about this bike) -- linked earlier in here -- also contains updates about the bike from those who have now put in a few 1000 miles since purchasing these bikes a few months ago.

Apparently, a niche manufacturer can still "make a go of it" in the UK.

One shouldn't forget, that CCM is probably sourcing most of it's income from adapting vehicles for military and police use. Only the income from the 450 sales would probably never refinance the development costs.

My own CCM 450 will be back in the garage tomorrow, after some modifications and improvements have been done by the Swedish dealer NCCR. I am now really looking forward to take the bike on the mountain trails in Norway during my upcoming three week vacation, which starts in just a bit more than a week. :mchappy:

I think it will be perfect for Norway :)

I was able to test the CCM in Italy, I really liked the bike, here is a little video I made about it for my blog (facebook.com/zimiontheloose)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPijA8CJnIs

Very nicely done video and a GREAT review as well! bier
Thanks for sharing!

What about riding this CCM fully loaded with luggage and all accessories on board? Have you tried the bike off road with full luggage?

I'm sure it's a great trail bike with no load on board but some will be taking the bike on long, extended RTW type rides and probably carrying TOO MUCH stuff.

And what about fast highway cruising (like at 70 mph all day) Can it do it OK?
(vibration? engine revving too high??)

What are your thoughts about the CCM as a long distance travel bike?

:mchappy:

Hi,

thanks!!! No I didn't have the change to ride the bike on highway neither with luggages...

I just had the opportunity to try it for 1 day, only off road.

waiting for somebody else to share some experience...

I've had only one ccm that was the 404ds that I really enjoyed and the thought of ccm fetching out the ccm 450 made me think about my next purchase, with it been English that was even better till I seen the price, I still made contact twice to have a test ride as I thought if it's bril I pay the price, unfortunately they didn't even bother to get back to me on both occasions, not very good start, I was in Italy doing the hard alp tour last year when I tried to speak to ccm sales guy regarding the bike and very rudely he walked away when I was speaking to him,
I would not buy one of these bikes now if they were halve price, I'm sorry I can't tell you what they handle like but can tell you what the people are like that sell them,,,,,,shit,,,,,,
That's my experience people, other people have had better,,,,,I hope because in this industry you can not afford to do this that often.