Information wanted from experienced bikers in South America
 

Hi all,

Lets start by saying that I am a complete newbie: in south-America (i only arrived 1,5 week ago in Peru) and on the HU website as well (member since three days). I guess I heave a lot to learn.. I am very much hoping that someone can share his experience with me or can give me a useful link.

My plan is to travel 8 months trough south america. Right now I am staying near Truijllo, Northern Peru for two months. I would like to get my motor drivers licence there. First question: does anybody have any experience getting his drivers licence in Peru? What burocratic stuff would i have to get trough? I´d love to hear about it.

Then i would like to buy a bike in peru and drive trough bolivia, chile and argentina. I´m flying back from buenos aires in 8 months. Second question: Is it possible at all to buy a bike in Peru, drive it all the way to argentina and then sell it there?

Thanks a lot in advance for your help.

Regards,

Jeroen

Second question: It is not possible sell a second hand bike in Argentine.

Anyway, ask me about Peru, Chile, Bolivia and Argentine. I will like help you.
Welcome to Southamerica and the bikes.

Concerning buying bikes in SA, you might be better of buying a US registered bike if you plan to leave the country of purchase. This way you don't have to deal with local registration and problems selling it in another SA country. This way you can tour around where ever you want in SA and sell it again to an other tourist who want to tour around.

Right now I have a US registered bike stored here in Southern Colombia for an Australian who want to sell it. There one more Australian wanting to sell driving around here in Colombia as well. I'll PM you a link to the details as I'm banned from posting links!

Chao
Mike

Answers Round 2
 

Joente100, following your several threads is sort of like herding cats.

Here is my answer on your other thread, xfiltrate

Need more details...
Jeroen, a used Argentine registered bike can be sold, or purchased in Argentina by a foreign tourist, only if the the owner, (the person to whom the vehicle/moto is registered) is present. The owner listed on the title must be present, present documentation, provide verification that all yearly taxes have been paid and a certification that the bike has not been reported stolen.

I would like to share what I know, but need more info from you, before I can answer your question.

Here are some general guidelines.

If you do identify an Argentine registered bike in Peru it would have entered Peru under the rules and regulations of a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit, issued to the owner at the border when the bike entered Peru.

In Peru, as in most South American countries it is clear that it is illegal to sell or buy vehicles/motorcycles that have been issued a Temporary Vehicle Import Permits, until the vehicle/moto is officially registered in the country that has issued the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. The majority of South American countries levy a steep import tax on foreign registered vehicles/motorcycles before the title can be transferred from the country where the vehicle/moto is registered to the country that has issued the Temporary Import Permit.

Generally speaking, only citizens of the country or official permanent foreign residents can have a foreign registered vehicle/moto that entered on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit (TVIP) registered in the country that issued the TVIP. The title transfer process is a lengthy procedure and the import tax is calculated well over half the determined value of the vehicle/moto.

So it would be impossible for you, who might be a foreign tourist in Peru, to buy or sell a foreign registered bike that has entered Peru on a TVIP.

On the other hand you as a foreign tourist could legally buy a new or used motorcycle in Argentina, tour Argentina and then legally sell your Argentine registered bike in Argentina, no problem.

What you might not be able to do is leave Argentina with the bike. Like Chile, Argentina imposes strict export regulations on foreign tourists who have legally purchased motorcycles in Argentina.

I do not know if there are similar restrictions on foreign tourists exporting their legally purchased Peruvian registered motorcycle. For that matter, you would need to consult with someone else.

I need more details of your plan, before I can comment on your specific situation. Hope this helps

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Thanks!
 

He guys,

Thanks so much for your accurate replies! It is really useful for me. I´m starting to think that buying a US registered bike is indeed the best option. Mike, thanks for sending me the link. Some nice bikes indeed! Actually I´m on a rather tight budget and had i had planned maximum $3000 for a motor but I´ll give it some thought..
Xfiltrate, sorry for al the threats but it took me while to find out where to place the thread.

If anyone else has a US registred bike for sale near north Peru: let me know!

Regards,

Jeroen

You're welcome Jeroen.

I thinks for all the bikes, the prices the owners have posted are negotiable. Send them an offer directly if you're interested in one of them. I only list the bikes on my site to help out, I have nothing to do with the sales.

Joentje100, could you clarify how you are going to purchase a motorcycle registered in the United States, with a title and plates issued and the property of one of the 50 United States in Peru?

When the owner of any foreign registered bike enters his bike into Peru he is issued a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit , valid for several months only, and if Peru is abiding by international agreements, that bike cannot be sold in Peru, without first paying import taxes, and registering the bike in Peru.

And, only the owner listed on the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit (TVIP) can exit the bike from Peru if he/she does it within the time limit allowed on the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit. If TVIP is expired, the motorcycle has a good chance of being impounded and a hefty fine levied on the owner before the motorcycle is released. Peru has a very modern system of keeping track of vehicles admitted with TVIPs.

Considering the expense, time and difficulty involved in securing the TRANSFER OF TITLE of the motorcycle from the State of the United States where the bike is registered, obtaining an "apostile," having the title translated into spanish by a Peruvian certified translator, legalizing the document, returning the US License plate to the department of transportation in the State where the bike is registered, your minimal budget, paying the very expensive import taxes, and then finding a Peruvian or a Foreign Permanent resident of Peru willing buy the motorcycle, register the bike in Peru and then legally sell it to you,

I do not understand why you are advertising to purchase a USA registered motorcycle in Northern Peru?

Could you explain?

And please remember to check with Peru customs, if you as a foreign tourist are permitted to exit a Peruvian registered motorcycle from Peru. As explained in my last post I do not know the answer to this question. I would like to know, if you find out. thanks..

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Quite easy:

You go to nearest border with the current owner. The owner signs out of this X country and cancels his temporary import permit. Then he hands over the papers to the new owner before he enters the new country. Most US state titles can be signed for ownership change on the back of the title.

The prove of ownership is all you need at bordercrossings to make the new temporary import permit. They have no way of checking if or to whom the bike is registered anyway. So as long as you have thet title and the license plate you're good.

Concerning registering the bike in the US, in most states you can do this through an online form. All you need is an address to have the registration returned to in the States - you don't have to be a citenzen do do the registration. Usually the seller will be helpful with arranging an address there and get it sent to you where ever you might be.

kaiserkyh Not as easy as you suggest or as accurate...
 

kaiserkyh, I have no idea how much time, energy or investment you have regarding your recent suggestion of transferring the title of a foreign registered (USA, Australia, EU, Germany or any country for which the motorcycle was required to obtain a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit TVIP) "before he enters the next country" but, I am obligated to advise you that you might be misleading others who rely on the HUBB for accurate infomation.

I want to be as gentle as possible, knowing you undoubtably are sincere, without malice or manipulation just trying to help your fellow adventure motorcyclists.

So, I will share the following 3 part story I penned to explain why it is not a good idea for anyone to follow your advice regarding the transfer of title for any motorcycle that has been issued a TVIP.

Here are some clues you might want to consider before reading my story, staged in Chile, but applicable in all South American countries.

1. There are no buffer zones between countries, there are no "no man's land" there is a demarcation line somewhere between border posts and either you are in one country or another. Most countries issue an export document, with the name of the owner of any vehicle and the vin# that must be presented at the border of the next country. The new TVIP is not issued unless the vehicle/moto has been officially cleared from the previous country, and the name on the export document is checked on the title and on the passport of the owner.

2. I researched all 50 States of the United States and have determined that although the title may be transferred by the owner and the buyer signing in the appropriate places on the reverse of the title, the signing and the signitures (signiture is verified against a legal document, like drivers license or passport) (in all 50 States) must be verified by a notary public certified by the State holding title to the vehicle/bike. Then all States have a time limit from 3 days to about a month in which the new owner must officially register the vehicle/motorcycle in the same state the vehicle/motorcycle was previously registered or in another State. if either of these conditions are not met the title transfer is null and void and the registered owner of the title remains liable for the motorcycle and all damages determined by law that have occurred no matter who is riding the motorcycle at the time of any accident.

3. In most of the United States, the plate is obligated to be immediately surrendered to the Dept of Motor Vehicles of the State, failure to do so incurs a very heavy fine and possible restriction of driving privileges in that State. The law is changing and very very soon each and every state will require the surrender of the license plate each time the title is transferred and a new plate will be issued.

It is made very clear the title and license plate issued by each State are the property of that State and can only be issued to a new owner by the State, along with a proper registration, sometimes requiring a safety check.

4. In the event of an accident with substantial property damage and/or personal injury in most South American countries all parties go to jail immediately. Those who have valid insurance might be bailed out by their insurance company, those who don't have insurance sit in jail for months until a judge can determine who was at fault.

If the new owner of the motorcycle has purchased insurance for the motorcycle it will be evident immediately to the insurance agent that the motorcycle was illegally transferred from a third party contrary to international agreements amoung all South American countries and the insurance will be decleared null and void and the new owner might well be prosecuted for fraudulently buying insurance for a motorcycle he did not legally own.

The injured parties will then seek restitution from the legal owner of the motorcycle - the seller. The new owner will also remain in jail for illegally importing a motorcycle and also may well be held accountable for damages as well as the legal owner of the motorcycle.

In the story below I have actually copied regulations from the dept of Transportation of the State of Arizona, which is a typical example of all the States. Many other States have just this year changed their title transfer requirements based on demands by Homeland Security.


Perhaps those visiting this thread might wonder about the possibilities of selling a foreign registered (USA/EU/etc.) motorcycle to another foreign tourist in Chile (South American)? This might be very interesting to foreign tourists considering buying a used foreign registered (USA, EU, Britain etc) motorcycle from another foreign tourist in Chile (South America).


I penned the following fictionalized story for another thread, and believe the information is valuable enough to be presented again here:

The topic here is, and I may be wrong, for I do have a propensity for staying off topic, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A UNITED STATES registered motorcycle title to be legally transferred, if the motorcycle is in Chile or Argentina and the seller is a foreign tourist and the buyer is also a foreign tourist and both seller and buyer are in Chile or Argentina.

In the majority of States I researched, the "foreign" owner simply signs the back of the title or signs a specified title transfer form provided by the State where the motorcycle is registered, and here is the catch, in every State I researched....the seller's signature must be notarized by a certified notary of the State that issued the title, or be notarized by a certified notary of the State where the motorcycle is to be registered. Whoa cowboys and cowgirls, not so fast!

Example: PART ONE Sam, Joe and Barbara

Foreign motor tourist Sam has a beautiful BMW, purchased and paid for in Arizona, that he rode to Panama, and then had it flown to Santiago, Chile. He had planned to continue his tour of South American countries, but the collapse of the US economy precluded him having expected profits from the gradual sale of his stock portfolio and he found himself destitute, until he could get back to California and earn some money.

Destitute foreign motor tourist Sam meets wealthy foreign tourist Joe at an Ex Pat bar in Santiago. Sam, over a few beers explains his troubles to his new friend Joe. Joe considers the matter and says "Sam, why don't you sell your BMW to me?"

Not wealthy by luck nor family fortune, but by his own intelligence and hard work, Joe begins considering the effort involved in transferring the BMW's Arizona title into his name, no, wait, he does not want an Arizona title, he wants to register the BMW in Colorado, where he lives most of the year.

"Ok, let's see the title , says Joe." He notices there are no liens (loans) on the bike and that indeed on reverse of the title are instructions for title transfer. Seems simple enough, Sam just needs to sign the BMW's Arizona title on the space provided and indicate the milage on the odometer, but wait, oh no, Sam's must sign in the presence of a State certified Notary Public.

Joe immediately considers the possibility of finding an Arizona certified Notary Public somewhere in Santiago, Chile, for he knows the State of Arizona will not release the Arizona title of the BMW unless Sam's signature was witnessed by a Notary Public.

Just by chance, slightly tipsy, but very attractive foreign tourist Barbara, had eyed handsome Joe through the front window of the bar as he backed in and dismounted his big BMW. She also noted that the BMW sported the familiar desert brown Arizona plate, and she was from Phoenix, Arizona.

Joe noticed Barbara eyeing Sam, before Joe even knew Barbara existed, and not one to miss an opportunity, even for a friend, Joe motioned the waiter to invite Barbara to his table for a drink. Barbara accepted the offer and immediately proclaimed to Joe and Sam, I am from Arizona too.

Joe, said "right, and I suppose you are a certified Notary Public as well." Barbara, a little taken back said, why yes, I work for a bank in Phoenix and I have my Notary stamp right here in my purse. To the astonishment of Joe and Sam, Barbara was a certified Notary Public of the State of Arizona.

The BMW is the last topic on Barbara's mind and Joe has an early business meeting, so Joe excuses himself, but not before inviting Sam and Barbara to dinner the following evening... and, now alone, Sam and Barbara begin by talking all things Arizona, then all about Joe's journey, the economy and about anything else that comes up, until the sun does come up.

When alone in his hotel room, Joe says to himself, "OK, I am in Chile. I am considering buying an expensive BMW that Sam had flown in from Panama. OK, customs here will have Sam listed on the temporary vehicle import permit, I will, have a notarized Arizona title with Sam's notarized signature indicating he has sold the BMW to me, and I suppose Sam will fly back to Arizona, maybe with Barbara and get back to work."

"I would like to ride the BMW immediately, but according to the temporary import permit issued by Chile, I am not authorized to ride it in Chile nor am I the owner of the BMW. What to do? What to do?"

"No, Sam would have to exit the bike from Chile. Of course I (Joe) would pay the air freight, to Colorado, but no, the bike will be registered in Sam's name when Denver customs clears the BMW from the airline, Sam would have to clear customs with the bike.

"This is becoming complicated! Perhaps I should reconsider my offer to buy Sam's BMW."

End PART ONE

Here are the original questions, found at the beginning of this thread that I am answering.

"How easy will it be to sell my bike down there? (South America)
What is the precedure for transfereing the tittle if it's US registered?
In the Central American countries there is such a high import tax you couldn't even give the bike away what about Argentina/Chile?"

PART TWO: SAM, JOE and BARBARA

Joe had selected a Chilean restaurant for the previous night's dinner invitation to the two Arizonans, Sam and Barbara . Joe was personal friends with the owner of the restaurant, who was also an attorney and worked as a criminal defense lawyer in Santiago.

When Joe arrived at the restaurant, Sam and Barbara were standing, helmets in hand, near the big BMW parked at the curb. Joe said, " I see you made it OK," looked at the bike and opened the restaurant door. All three were welcomed in and seated by Jose Luis, the owner of the restaurant.

Sam appeared a little stressed that the subject of Joe buying the BMW did not come up during dinner and finally asked, "were you serious when you offered to buy my bike?" Without losing a beat, Joe's auto response was, "guess it depends on how much it will cost me?"

Sam relaxed a little and honestly stated, the bike is equipped for touring and would sell easily in the States for $15,000 US, and here I have seen the same bike, not equipped for touring, for sale for $20,000 US.

"Wow, why the big difference?" Joe knew, but asked to find out how much Sam knew about selling a US registered bike in Chile. "Has something to do with an import tax imposed on foreign bikes, before they can be registered and then sold in Chile. I think" was Sam's honest answer.

"But!" Sam quickly added, "that has nothing to do with you buying my bike, because you don't intend on registering it in Chile, do you??? "No" if I buy it I plan to fly it to Colorado, that is if the price is right." "So?" "How much will she cost me?"

"Ok" we don't want to do anything illegal here, right?" "Right!" They both agree.

"How about $10,000 dollars, cash?" "And, you ride it to Colorado." Now, Joe was caught a bit off guard, he had not considered the possibility of riding from Chile to Colorado, and it sounded like a damn good idea. After all, his venture in Chile had been very profitable and for ten years he has wanted a real vacation....

"What a great idea. I buy your bike, then during the next 6 months I ride South and then Central America and on up to Colorado. I would love to do that. I had a Harley when I was younger."

"Is it possible?" asks Joe... "Of Course!" replies Sam, I have just finished a ride from Arizona to Panama, flew the bike here to Santiago, no problems." "I had planned to continue on to Argentina and several more South American Countries, but, you know the story." "Yeah, Yeah, tough luck, OK I'll give you $8,000.00 for the bike, if Barbara will notarize your signature on the back of the Arizona title, and she will confirm that with this title, once I reach Colorado, I will be able to register the bike in Colorado in my name."

Surprisingly quiet Barbara, now proclaims, "Yes Joe, with Sam's signature, and his Arizona drivers license number and US passport number as identification, I will notarize his signature, on the reverse of the Arizona title, as seller of the BMW to you." "This will, make the bike legally yours.... in Arizona, that is and you will be free to have this title transferred to a Colorado title in your name, according to the laws and regulations of Colorado." "I will also notarize your signature, on the back of the arizona title, as buyer, this is also required, so that Sam is released from any potential liability occurring in Arizona."

As an after thought, and looking directly at Joe, Babara adds.... "Sam gave me a ride, to the restaurant that is, and I can also attest that his bike runs great."

The following conversation goes like this.... "Wait, only $8,000.00?" I said $10,000.00." "Yes, I know but my offer is $8,000.00, take it or leave it."

After a moment of silence, Joe adds, look, I am at risk here... I have no idea how I am going to buy insurance, cross borders etc. etc. This is going to be a risky adventure for me, and I am offering, in part, to help you in a time of need." "Take it or leave it."

"OK, I'll take it, but you are getting a hell of a deal!"

END PART TWO

PART THREE: SAM, JOE AND BARBARA

Once Sam agreed to accept Joe's offer, they both relaxed ... and Joe began to feel the slow rush of adrenalin that mysteriously begins to course through his body and mind at the beginning of a every new business venture or a big trip, or before sex.

Barbara sensing the moment, wondered silently about the odds defying flow of events that brought the three of them together. Had she not noticed Joe and the Arizona plates on his bike as he parked in front of a bar in Santiago, Chile, this might not be happening. At the bank where she worked in Phoenix, Arizona she had often notarized vehicle title transfers and knew that she was needed. Well, anyway, a certified notary was needed, needed to identify Sam with two forms of signed picture ID, observe him sign as the seller on the back of the BMWs Arizona title, verify his signature against his signatures on the picture IDs and then affix her notary seal and signature. She knew little , and cared less about title transfers beyond notarizing the signature of the seller.

Barbara's attention returned to Joe as he was explaining to Sam the location of the Santiago American Express office where at 11 the next morning, he would give Sam the $8,000 dollars and then, with Barbara as Notary, Sam could sign the back of Arizona title of the BMW as seller.

Joe wanted a closer look at the BMW and needed some time to reflect upon his decision to buy, so he casually mentioned that it was late and he wanted to spend time with his good friend Jose Louis, attorney and owner of the restaurant. Once out of the restaurant Sam swung effortlessly onto the comfortable seat of the bike, and waited until Barbara had put on her helmet and carefully pinioned behind him. Only then did he don his own helmet and touch the starter button. As expected the big BMW purred to life and they were off.

As he headed back to his table, and his laptop, he caught Jose Luis off guard by asking if there was WI-FI.

"Amigo, you think this is some third world country?" "Absolutamente, we have WI FI" "Why?"

"Well, I just want to take a look at the State of Arizona Motor Vehicles web site."

"You going to Arizona?"

"No, no, tomorrow I am going to buy that BMW that those two kids just rode out a here."

"You are going to do WHAT!!!"

"Buy the bike, buy the bike, and then ride it back to Colorado." Haven't you been telling me for years I work too hard and should take a long vacation?"

"Amigo, No sé nada about the Arizona Motor Vehicle regulations but, you buy that Arizona bike in Chile and instead of a vacation you might end up in a very uncomfortable jail cell."

"What?"

"You are on the right track, take a look at the Arizona Department of transportation web site while I close up the restaurant and then we will talk."

The following was copied from:

Arizona Department of Transportation

Soon after loading the ADOT web site, Joe knew he had made a very bad decision.

Seller

When a vehicle is sold (or otherwise transferred) you, the seller, should:

Sign off the back of the title and have your signature notarized.
Give the title to the buyer with any lien release, if applicable.
Complete a sold notice online, or on the back of the vehicle registration.
Remove and retain the license plate, instead of leaving the plate on the vehicle. The plate belongs to you, the vehicle owner not the vehicle. You can later transfer the plate to another vehicle that you register.
Request a refund (see Refunds below). –or–
Transfer the plate credit to another vehicle owned (see Credit For Fees below).

Buyer

Upon sale or transfer of a vehicle, the registration for that vehicle is no longer valid. The buyer must visit any MVD or authorized Third Party office to transfer the plate and register the vehicle.

If it is necessary to drive the vehicle to complete this transaction, the buyer must obtain a Restricted Use 3-Day Permit, for private sales, or a Temporary Registration Plate, for vehicles purchased from a licensed dealer


"Amigo, you learn anything from the web site?"

"Yeah, looks like if I buy the bike, the license plate is not included, and the registration no longer legal until I visit the motor vehicles department and transfer the title."

"What does it say about "INSURANCE?" As your friend and an attorney, I am not going to allow you to ride that bike anywhere with out insurance."

"No problem José Luis, I'll buy insurance here."

"Es possible," " I am sure there are more than one insurance company in Santiago, that will sell you insurance, but the minute you have an accident, damage something, or kill someone with that bike, an attorney representing the insurance company, will look at the copy of the title you submitted and immediately declare that you fraudulently purchased insurance for a bike that you do not hold title to." "You, might be able to buy insurance, but you will have no coverage."

"José Luis, from what I just read.... I might have another "problema." "What license plate number will appear on the insurance card?" "Sam is required to remove the plate." "And, how will I ride from Chile to Colorado without a license plate."

"You won't." "Matter of fact you won't get out of Chile on that bike."

"Why not?"

"Because... when your friend collected his bike from the "aduana" at the airport, he was issued what is called a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit" (TVIP) which clearly states that the "vehicle" or "motorcycle" is not to be sold in Chile, therefore TVIPs are non transferrable." "And, in order to exit Chile you must turn in the TVIP, show the title and possibly submit the bike to an inspection of the vin #, that hopefully, matches the vin # on the title."

"For each border between here and Colorado you cross, you will be required to show title to obtain a TVIP and you might have to prove you have insurance, you might not, but you might." "When you cannot ride further north, you will have to ship or fly the bike to Panama and without a proper title, I doubt any reputable shipper will carry a bike, with a questionable title, as cargo."

"Look Joe, you need to back out of this deal."

"I am to meet those kids at American Express in the morning." I like them both, they just met and this was not a set up. This I know for sure. Perhaps I could lend Sam a couple grand, if he had the money he would ride the bike back to Arizona himself."

"Joe I'll be there for you in the morning, now go get some sleep."

The next morning Joe withdrew $2,000.00 dollars on his American Express card and while he waited in the vip lounge of American Express, he penned an agreement to repay $2,000.00 to be signed by Sam. When José Louis arrived he looked confident, and as was customary he handed his friend Joe a Cuban cigar.

From the vip lounge both men saw Sam and Barbara arrive on the BMW. Barbara took Sam's arm as they approached the upscale building. They burst into the lounge and after Barbara kissed both men on the cheek, she proclaimed, "we have some good news." This obviously positive spin got Joe's attention.

"Tell them Sam." "Gentlemen, it seems as if Barbara was temporarily laid off from the bank in Phoenix, and has unemployment insurance for six months. She, has agreed to finance our trip back to Arizona! She will lend me the money for my share of the expenses, and of course, I provide a ride home for her." "And, she was wise enough to buy a refundable airline ticket."

"Wow, that's good news!" Joe winked at José Luis, and said, you know I like you kids, I am happy for you, a bit envious, but certain you will have a great ride home."

"All of this is so exciting." "I like Sam, and I believe this journey, through foreign lands, is just the way to get to know him better." Can you believe, he is a customer at the bank where I work!" "This was meant to be!"

"Well, you two have many kilometers to ride, be good to each other, and with that Joe began to unwrap the Cuban cigar." As the two friends watched the BMW disappear into traffic and the smoke of 2 Cuban cigars, they remembered why they liked each other.

END PART THREE

Multiple answer test soon...

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

xfiltrate, I am baffled that you keep pounding the drum in this way. People buy and sell bikes as Mike describes. It works. It seems like years ago I pointed out that at least some of your "researched" information about title transfers in the States is incorrect. I'm too weary to bother looking for that information again.

The fact is, if you wish to be considered a reliable source of information, you've got to earn it by.....yes!....providing reliable information. If you say it can't be done, yet it's being done as we speak, you've got to align yourself with observable realities. Otherwise, why would people listen?

Your intentions are no doubt sincere and honorable, but this is not the way to go about being helpful. As well, it does real damage to your credibility in unrelated matters. I am thinking in this connection of your attempts to change Argentinian federal regulations--a cause which has real merit. Why dilute that effort by claiming that the earth is flat?

Jeez, I hope I don't sound as harsh as I'm afraid I do. Maybe I'll look at this post tomorrow and edit it into blandness.

Mark

From Piura, Peru--a hopping, hustling city without anything obvious to recommend it to travelers....except that it got dark, and here I was.

www.Xfiltrate.com - well, I have nothing invested and nothing to gain, do you?

But I do know, I don't have the same amount of time to follow up on this subject...

All I can say is you apparently haven't crossed the Colombian/Ecuadorian border where there is plenty of space between borders to do a handover or even go eat at a restaurant on either the Colombian or Ecuadorian side of the border bridge before entering either country.

And secondly this has been done, no problems - that's all!

To know or not to know, that is the question.
 

Thomas Jefferson once said, "Discussion is the backbone of Democracy."

Markharf, how helpful is it to ignore or pretend the non existence of the several valid arguments I presented to kiserkyhl. How credible would I be to the documented thousands of adventure motorcyclists, who read my posts if I did not present accurate legal realities based upon my research, and my border crossing experiences?

In the final analysis I am true to myself and present what I know to be true.

If my truths regarding foreign title transfer or whatever I present in any post are not true for you, believe only what you know to be true, based on your own experiences, because if you lose that, you have lost everything.

In Mexico, I worked for 3 years part time for the International Red Cross, (Cruz Roja) one of my duties was to visit citizens of the United States being held in Mexican jails. The information I presented to kaiserkyhl is based upon heart wrenching personal observations of how quickly, even a well respected motor vehicle insurance company, can find a legality (illegal title transfer for example) to abandon and avoid paying the liabilities of their "clients."

I visited many tourists, at fault and not at fault in motor vehicle accidents, month after month as they waited their turn (que) on the impossibly over burdened Mexican court docket, for their sentencing or release from jail by a judge. Is it helpful not to present the fact that illegal title transfer null and voids vehicle insurance coverage? or is it helpful? I would like your opinion.

I learned from you that several (very few) States of the United States still mail order title transfer documents, but none will do so without the seal of a Notary Public, certified by that State, or a third party "approved" Notary's seal. Therefore, there is no title transfer of a vehicle or motorcycle titled in the United States without the seal of a Notary Public certified in the State that holds the title. And, the physical return of the license plate, and issuance of a new plate, is now being required for an increasing number of States.

kaiserkyhl, I am well aware of the land mass between borders. Paso de Hama, one of the Andean crossings between Argentina and Chile, is a great example. But, that land mass belies the fact that no matter where you are between border outposts, you are in one of the countries or the other!

Perhaps now you have a better understanding of my vested interest and what I have to gain. What I have to gain should be obvious, reducing the number of adventure motorcyclists unknowingly violating international law and spending months, perhaps years in foreign jails.

If you participated in a "handover" of the title of a foreign registered bike somewhere in the land mass between Colombia and Ecuador you apparently were not aware of the laws of Colombia, Ecuador and the United States that have determined this "handover" to be a criminal act that might lead to consequences also beyond your awareness.

I do not understand your "this has been done" argument, are you saying that the doing of illegal title transfers somehow is OK because some people do it? I do not understand your logic.

It might surprise you that there are many more people who do not illegally transfer titles.

This reminds me of an attempted robbery I experienced, a young kid with a knife approached me from the back and stuck his blade against my spine and said "give me your money." i said "NO" that I had worked hard for my money and he should do the same. After I relieved him of his knife, pinned him on the ground with my knee in his neck, I had a little talk with him.

The bottom line was that this kid had a very sincere belief, that everyone, stole. The rich were just better at it, the little he knew of politics confirmed his belief, what he heard on the news and knew or his friends vocations was more confirmation.... he was actually shocked to learn that most people worked, provided a service or product in exchange for their money.

I believed the kid to be sincere, I kept him pinned until I determined he was no longer a threat, pocketed his knife and turned him loose.

I have never claimed the earth is flat, but have claimed some facts about the problems one might encounter participating in illegal title transfers in South America. markharf, please keep your comments to what I have actually claimed.

If anyone cares to contribute or share a different point of view, I would be pleased to respond, and continue this disscussion.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Promised multiple choice test..
 

Here is the multiple choice test I promised in a previous post. Please check yes or no. Good luck.

1. Is it legal for one foreign tourist to sell a foreign registered motorcycle (USA, EU, Australia, Germany, etc) that has entered a South American country on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit to another foreign tourist or to a local citizen, if the motorcycle, the seller and the buyer are in a South American Country?

YES________

NO_________

Comments:_________________________________________ _______

__________________________________________________ ________

__________________________________________________ ________



Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

1. Is it legal for one foreign tourist to sell a foreign registered motorcycle (USA, EU, Australia, Germany, etc) that has entered a South American country on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit to another foreign tourist or to a local citizen, if the motorcycle, the seller and the buyer are in a South American Country?

YES______x_

NO_________

Comments:_____
As long as the $$$$ changes hands (payement) is made out side of the foreign country and title is transfered outside the foreign country too. I only speak to Colombia. They only care if the bike leaves befor the temp time is over. They do not care who rides it out.....The last time I rode out, the DIAN office had a little box out front, like a sugestion box to drop your papers into. No muss, no fuss.

Martin

1 Yes
 

Interesting observation Cartagenabound, could you please give an example of one country (EU, Australia, Germany, Britain, etc) or one State of the United States that will process a title transfer if both seller and buyer in another country other than the country of registration of the bike that does not require the signatures of seller and buyer to be notarized by a notary certified in the country/State of the registration of the bike.

And, once you have done that, please describe the process of transferring the license plate of the bike from seller to buyer. The majority of the United States do not allow transfer of the license plate from seller to buyer and the seller must return the plate issued to her/him and then the buyer apply for a plate, and must have a physical address in the State of issue, before a new plate is issued.

There are also other conditions in many countries and States of the United States required for title transfer. One is that the bike might have to be inspected by the State issuing the new title.

I seriously doubt that selling a motorcycle that has entered Colombia on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit is legal. All TVIPs state that the vehicle/motorcycle may not be sold in country! This, no matter if a little box exists or not, to drop off your TVIP.

Please understand that if the title transfer is not legal according to the country or State of the United States where the bike is registered, all insurance coverage will be declared null and void in the event of of a serious accident requiring the insurance company to provide an attorney or pay damages.

And most importantly both seller and buyer are risking criminal prosecution for a number of crimes if the seller and buyer have not complied with all the regulations imposed for title transfer in the country or State of the United States where the bike is registered. Not the least of which is illegally importing the bike into the country adjoining Colombia.

Please just give one example as requested. I could not find one.

Eat, Drink, and Be Careful xfiltrate

One example
 

Good Morning Mr. Xfiltrate,


One example that I personally know:


California, USA –

No notary required, just signature. No inspection, plates stay with bike. Buyers and seller can use the same address in California. Paperwork can be done by a third party, no personal appearance is required. Insurance can be purchased on line. California only requires that the taxes be paid on the re-sale.


I have read the law concerning the temporary importing of vehicles to Colombia. No where does it prohibit one tourist transferring the vehicle to another. Additionally if the Money changes hands out side of the country and the title changes outside of the country, there is no sale in Colombia. Just like when you purchase an airline ticket on the internet. The sale is considered to happen where the payment is given. Here is an example for you to think about:


XFILTRATE is in Argentina. He purchases a book on line from Amazon.com and pays for it with a USA credit card. He then ships his book to his home in Argentina. Is he a smuggler? Is the book contraband? Of course not! As soon as he paid for the book and Amazon shipped it, the book became his personal property. He is allowed to bring his personal property into Argentina, within the boundaries of Argentinean law, whatever they may be.


One more very legal, and easy way to achieve the same goal. All USA states allow multiple owners on a single vehicle title. One could just add the new person to the title. I have never done this however it sounds easy enough. Something to investigate.


Georgia, USA –
I have a bike that was purchased in South Carolina, and registered in Georgia. The bike is currently in South America and I have no plan to return it to the USA. It has been in Colombia since March 09 and I am actually planning on driving it to Buenos Aires in March, 10. Perhaps we can meet and have a coffee.


I do not want to continue paying two insurance premiums (Colombia and USA). I was in Georgia this month and I went into the DMV office to explain to them that the vehicle is out of the country. They then exempted me providing insurance. They had a form with a little box to check off and turn in. Took me all of 10 minutes.


As long as we are not in a Socialist or country, we are free to do as we wish. So long as it is not specifically prohibited by law. Last time I checked, Colombia and the USA are still a democracy. I am not sure about Argentina, you can make that call.


Anything else I can help you out with, just let me know.
Martin

Title transfer in Colombia???
 

Sr. Cartagenabound, I look forward to meeting you for a coffee and conversation in Buenos Aires in March. My favorite coffee is Colombian coffee bean arabica that is grown in the mountains.

Thank you for your insights, I will respond to your comments in an order different from your presentation, because my first response makes mute the California and Georgia issues, that I have addressed previously, but will explain again, in detail, in my next post.

Martin, below is the actual present law describing the document Formulario de importacion temporal de Vehiculos. I have made bold the relevant facts.

This law is referred to on what we call, for discussion purposes the Temporary Vehicle Import Permit, (TVIP) it is a universal law agreed to by convention by all South American countries. Of course, I have presented here the actual law for Colombia in effect at the present time.

My purpose is well beyond our conversation, it is to maintain the highest standard of truth possible, for the reputation of Horizonsunlimited.com and for all readers seeking accurate information.

I will now duplicate in English what is stated in the Colombian law copied below.

The foreign tourist who wants to tour Colombia on a motorcycle, registered abroad (Canada, USA, EU, Australia etc) must be the legal owner of the motorcycle when she/he enters Colombia and then she/he (the same foreign tourist owner) must ride out of Colombia within 6 months or whatever time is allowed on the Colombian issued TVIP.

I have a copy of the International Convention of which I will now reference.

Therefore, no sale of this motorcycle is legal in Colombia. And, as all other South American countries have agreed to reciprocate with identical laws, the transfer of title of the motorcycle is not possible in any South American country.

Illegally transferring title in South America is grounds for abandonment of insurance coverage and possible criminal prosecution for illegal importation of the motorcycle into the adjoining country.

Brief description of California transfer laws:

California is one of the few States, *only requiring a certified notary for removal of liens on vehicle titles, but California does require the submission of the original title of the motorcycle with seller and buyers signatures, for the purpose of investigating outstanding taxes, tickets etc owed and for the purpose of assigning road tax plus a number of other California taxes and these must be paid BEFORE a new title is issued!

*Since California is the exception regarding a mandatory certified notary and does require a notary for removal of liens, it is certainly not representative of all the other States. You could well be misleading people by only citing the California example! Many, not familiar with the United Sates might not know that each State of the United States independently creates motor vehicle regulations and believe the California example was a representative example, which it is not.

An application for title transfer must be submitted! The calculation of fees is time consuming.

LEGALLY THE TRANSFER OF TITLE IS NOT COMPLETE UNTILL the transfer fees are paid. They are due within 10 days of the sale of the motorcycle and then buyer must register the motorcycle in California, if that is the buyers State of residence or face heavy fines. SEE California Motor Vehicle Law below Colombian law....

Eat, Drink Colombian Coffee and Be Careful xfiltrate



ESTATUTO ADUANERO DE COLOMBIA
ACTUALIZADO AL 31 DE OCTUBRE DE 2004

MINISTERIO DE HACIENDA Y CREDITO PUBLICO

DECRETO No. 2685

(28 de Diciembre de 1999)
Por el cual se modifica la legislación aduanera.

EL PRESIDENTE DE LA REPÚBLICA DE COLOMBIA,

en uso de las facultades que le confiere el numeral 25 del artículo 189 de la Constitución Política, con sujeción a los artículos 3º de la Ley 6ª de 1971 y 2º de la Ley 7ª de 1991, oído el Consejo Superior de Comercio Exterior, y
CONSIDERANDO:
Que el Gobierno Nacional está comprometido con las políticas que permitan fortalecer la inserción de la economía colombiana en los mercados internacionales, facilitando y agilizando las operaciones de comercio exterior;
Que con el propósito de brindar transparencia, claridad y certeza a los usuarios del comercio exterior, las operaciones aduaneras deben armonizarse y simplificarse a través de una legislación que las recoja en su integridad y consulte las tendencias legislativas internacionales;

Que para el efecto y en cumplimiento de nuestra Carta Política, en la elaboración del presente decreto se atendieron las leyes marco en materia aduanera y de comercio exterior y los convenios internacionales; y se consultó la legislación comparada y las propuestas del sector privado, para garantizar un equilibrio entre el fortalecimiento del control, la fiscalización aduanera y la eficiente prestación del servicio;

Que de acuerdo a los anteriores lineamientos, se introducen las modificaciones al régimen de aduanas, mediante las siguientes disposiciones,


Sección V

Importación Temporal para Reexportación en el mismo estado



ARTÍCULO. 158°. Importación temporal de vehículos de turistas. Los vehículos de turistas (automóviles, camionetas, casas rodantes, motos, motonetas, bicicletas, cabalgaduras, lanchas, naves, aeronaves, dirigibles, cometas) utilizados como medios de transporte de uso privado, serán autorizados en importación temporal, cuando sean conducidos por el turista o lleguen con él.

Los turistas podrán importar temporalmente el vehículo que utilicen como medio de transporte de uso privado, sin necesidad de garantía ni de otro documento aduanero diferente a la tarjeta de ingreso que establezca la Dirección de Impuestos y Aduanas Nacionales, o la libreta o carné de paso por aduana, o el tríptico, o cualquier otro documento internacional reconocido o autorizado en convenios o tratados públicos de los cuales Colombia haga parte. Estos documentos serán numerados, fechados y registrados por la autoridad aduanera. En todos los casos el turista deberá indicar a la aduana de salida del vehículo importado temporalmente.

Los nacionales colombianos, no residentes en el país, al llegar deberán presentar adicionalmente, un certificado de residencia en el exterior expedido o visado por el cónsul colombiano en el país de residencia.

ARTÍCULO. 159°. Requisitos del documento de importación temporal. En el documento aduanero que autorice la Dirección de Impuestos y Aduanas Nacionales para la importación temporal del vehículo deberá indicarse marca, número del motor, año del modelo, color, placa del país de matrícula y demás características que lo individualicen.
ARTÍCULO. 160°. Plazo para la importación temporal de vehículos de turistas. El plazo máximo de importación temporal para los medios de transporte de uso privado, será de seis (6) meses, prorrogables por la autoridad aduanera hasta por otro plazo igual, condicionado al tiempo de permanencia en el territorio aduanero nacional otorgado en la visa al turista.
En caso de accidente comprobado ante la autoridad aduanera, ésta podrá autorizar un plazo especial condicionado por el tiempo que se requiera para la reparación del medio de transporte o para que pueda salir del país en condiciones mínimas de seguridad.

En caso de destrucción o pérdida del vehículo, esta deberá acreditarse ante la autoridad aduanera.

ARTÍCULO. 161°. Aduana de ingreso y de salida. La salida de los vehículos importados temporalmente podrá hacerse por cualquier aduana del país. En caso de que el vehículo salga del país por una aduana diferente a la de ingreso la aduana de salida deberá informar inmediatamente a la de ingreso, para la cancelación de la importación temporal.

Si una vez vencido el término autorizado para la importación temporal del vehículo, no se ha producido su reexportación, procederá su aprehensión y decomiso.



What Constitutes a Change in Ownership? California

Any change of the registered owner or lienholder (legal owner) of a vehicle or vessel is considered to be a change in ownership that must be updated on the records at the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). The change is usually due to:

Sale or gift
Adding or deleting the name of an owner
Inheritance
Satisfaction of lien (full payment of car loan)
Transfer—Whenever there is a change of ownership, the DMV refers to the transaction as a “transfer.”

Seller—The person(s) and/or company shown as the registered owner on the Certificate of Title (and DMV’s records) is always referred to as the seller, even if the vehicle is a gift.

Buyer—The person(s) and/or company who is going to become the new registered owner is referred to as the buyer.

What Fees Will Be Due?

Fees will be determined when the application is submitted to DMV and may include:

Transfer
Use Tax – Based on new registered owner’s city and county of residence
Registration Renewal
Planned Non-Operation
Duplicate Title
Replacement License Plate – Due if a license plate has been lost or stolen.
NOTE: Transfer fees are due within 10 days of the “sale.” Penalties are assessed if payment is not received by DMV within 30 days of the “sale.” If multiple sales occur before DMV is notified, a separate transfer fee is collected for each sale when the application for transfer is received by DMV.

Martin, you must have been reading my thread: (Buy new or used in Argentina and legally tour all of South America ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
in the South and Central America and Mexico forum

about a year ago I explored the idea in great detail ,regarding the possibility of one foreign tourist owner of a foreign registered motorcycle (USA) adding the name of another foreign tourist while both and the motorcycle are in a South American country. I have some experience in doing this and I can find nothing illegal. Since adding a name to the title is not a transfer of title and indeed the original owner is still the owner voila! a possible legal solution. The road blocks to this plan are dependent upon the motor vehicle regulations of the State of the United States, or country in which the motorcycle is registered. Only a few allow names to be added to titles with out presenting identification at the motor vehicle department of the State.

The other issue is similar to the issue of foreign tourists buying a new or used motorcycle in Argentina and having an Argentine or a permanent resident of Argentina, as co owner for the purpose of legally exiting the motorcycle from Argentina. The problem is of course, the liability aspects of an accident. The original owner will still be liable for damages, that might be awarded by a civil court. These damages could be in the tens of thousands of dollars if there is a death or personal injury.

BCK 973 recently made the liability argument quite eloquently on my thread. His position is that the the new co owner might have an accident and encumber liabilities for the original owner. I will soon respond to BCK 973, and you might want to join us on my thread:

( Buy new or used in Argentina and legally tour all of South America ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page) xfiltrate

Have another cup of coffee...

Hi Kaiserkyhl, do I conclude correctly from this trail you assist with selling bikes? As I want to sell mine. If so, please can you send me a link as well to remcoinuk@hotmail.com?

Jeroen, I send you already an email re my bike, which will fit your budget.

Cheers,
Remco

Xfiltrate, are you familiar with the word "indefatigable?" You are a walking, talking definition.

But I still don't know where you get this stuff....and I don't know who, if anyone, has the patience to read through your posts. As I've written before, I've bought and sold in the USA all my life--maybe 20 vehicles or more, in seven states--and never dealt with a notary. Not once. If you don't get that part right, who's to say whether you get the rest (with which I've got no personal experience) right?

enjoy,

Mark

Hi Remco

I have a website (which I can't mention here) where I let travelers post their bike sales in Colombia to the bikers visiting my site. I have nothing to do with the sale, I only connect people because there's a need and then they can do their own arrangements.

Unlike the oracle Xflitrate who wants to make it sound like, there's only one truth and everything he writes is in the name of some higher HU consensus, I believe that the HU users would actually like to read about solutions and first hand experiences and get as many options on the table as possible, not just hear from NO say'ers.

Then they can decide for them self which is their truth and if there's a possible procedure they will engage in, legal or not. All I'm saying is that its been done several times with no problems.

This will be the last post on the subject from me as I have no further to add, but I will react when people accuse me of benefiting, when I'm not or calling me a criminal!:hammer:

The "stuff" of reality.
 

Markharf, here we look at title transfer in the State of Georgia, USA . I have selected Georgia because Cartagenabound is in Colombia with his motorcycle that is registered in Georgia, USA.

If you read current Colombian law (copied into my previous post) that is identical to the law requiring Temporary Vehicle Import Permits in every South American country, you will discover the fact that it is illegal by Colombian law, for a foreign tourist (Cartagenabound) to sell (transfer title) his USA registered motorcycle in Colombia.

Please do take the time to read the actual law, this is where I find my "stuff."

Regarding USA title transfers, below is a good example of "where I get my "stuff." My stuff comes from reading the transfer of title regulations for all 50 States of the United States, then I reduce what I know to be true from my research, to a few words and post to you.

MVD | Vehicle Currently Titled in Georgia

MOTOR VEHICLE DIVISION Georgia

**MVD Office Hours: 7:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Monday thru Friday excluding state holidays **
What is needed to register and obtain a Georgia title and license plate in my name for a vehicle that is currently titled in Georgia?

A completed MVD tag and/or title application (Form MV-1) - This application should be typed, completed electronically and printed or printed legibly by-hand in blue or black ink in the vehicle owner's full legal name and signed by the vehicle owner. If the vehicle is jointly owned, each owner's full legal name, valid Georgia driver's license or Georgia identification card number and signature is required. An individual's full legal name is their complete name as it appears on their valid Georgia driver's license or Georgia identification card. For individual owners, enter each owner's valid Georgia driver's license or Georgia identification card number in the spaces provided.
If your vehicle is financed, enter the lien or security interest holder's name, address and MVD assigned customer number, if known, in the spaces provided. Please enter their correct mailing address. Some financial institutions require payments to go to one address and titles to go to another. Contact your financial institution for this information. The Georgia title, when issued, will be mailed to the first lien or security interest holder at the address shown on your title application. If there are no liens or security interest holders recorded, the title, when issued, will be mailed to you, the vehicle owner.
If all current owners go in person to their county tag office with their valid Georgia driver's license or Georgia identification card, the vehicle's current odometer reading, when an odometer disclosure is required, the required supporting document, proof of Georgia liability insurance, proof that your vehicle has passed an emission's inspection when required for your vehicle in your county of residence, and payment of the required fees and taxes, this application can be completed online and printed for your signatures and processing. This same application can be used to apply for both a title and tag or tag transfer at your county tag office. Click here to view a list of vehicles exempt from the odometer disclosure requirements.
Original valid Georgia title properly assigned to you, the vehicle's owner, using your full legal name and showing a complete and correct chain of ownership.
All recorded liens and/or security interests against the previous owner must be released in the spaces provided on the title.
Proof that your vehicle is insured with the required Georgia liability insurance. Click here to find out what is acceptable proof of insurance.
Proof that your vehicle has passed an emission inspection when your vehicle requires an inspection in your county of residence. For more information regarding emissions inspections, please call the Georgia Clean Air Force at: 1-800-449-2471 or click here to connect to their web site.
Payment for the total fees and vehicle ad valorem taxes due. Click here to determine the total dues and taxes due. Pay all fees due with cash, check or money order payable to the Office of the Tax Commissioner. Contact your County Tag Office for other acceptable methods of payment. Please do not remit cash through the mail!
Note: Every Georgia owner, other than a licensed dealer, must obtain a title in their name for the vehicle before transferring, when the vehicle requires a Georgia title.

Where to Apply

Click here to find out where to register and obtain a title and license plate for your vehicle. If you do not already have a Georgia title issued in your name for this vehicle, when a Georgia title is required, you must apply for a title at the time of registration.

When to Apply

You have thirty (30) days from the purchase or transfer date to register and obtain a tag or to transfer your existing valid Georgia tag, from a vehicle you no longer own, to this vehicle. To be able to transfer the tag, both vehicles, the previously owned vehicle and the newly purchased/acquired vehicle, must require the same category tag. Click here to view a list of the different tag categories. If you fail to register your vehicle during this thirty (30) day period of time, you will be subject to fines if stopped by law enforcement or if the vehicle is involved in an accident. Click here to view a list of vehicles that do not require a Georgia title.
_________________________________________________

1. OK, here is what we learn from the above? If Catagenabound, wants to transfer his Georgia, USA registered motorcycle, he can only do so to a person who is a resident of the State of Georgia who has a valid Georgia USA driving permit and has purchased Georgia liability insurance and presented these and other documents to the appropriate offices described above. And please review my last post citing the Colombian TVIP regulations that prohibits him from transferring title in Colombia, and in any other South America country issuing a TVIP to Catagenabound allowing entrance of his motorcycle.

2. It is possible Cartagenbound to sell his motorcycle to a resident of another State of the United States (if he and the motorcycle are in the United States) , and the buyer will then go through a similar drill as described by the Georgia Motor Vehicle Division above, including presenting all documentation, insurance, taxes and fees with the Department of Motor Vehicles of the buyers State of residence. And, there are time limits for the buyer to register in his own State, that if not met result in heavy fines.

Markharf, please provide me with a list of the 7 States in which you were able to transfer title without 1. being in the State, and identifying yourself at the Motor Vehicle Dept or to 2. utilizing the services of a "required" notary public.

I will provide on this thread the realities of current transfer of vehlcle title for each of those States.

Fair enough?

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Ok, and then I think I need to bow out. I have neither the time, the energy, nor the self-interest...and like Mike, I rather suspect that anyone who wants to bother can form their own opinions and act upon them.

During a span of 35 years of vehicle ownership: North Carolina, Massachussetts, California, Colorado, Washington, Arizona....how many is that? Only six, huh, whadaya know? Oh, sorry: also New York. I've also helped family transfer ownership in Ontario and BC, but I've forgotten how this worked exactly.

Some of these states have required insurance before title transfer, others not. Some haven't even issued titles at all. Some require insurance but leave it to you to comply. Some absolutely love to do this stuff by mail (I am thinking of Arizona and Washington) because they don't have to hire those surly, unionized clerks to work in Department of Motor Vehicles offices. Some require inspections; others do not.

Hope that's helpful. Oh, and I am happy to recommend Mike, posting above, as a genuinely helpful, stand-up, reliable guy...with an incredibly cute daughter and a charming wife. He's not permitted, but I am: Casa Blanca Hostel, in Cali.

Best to all (and see you in B.A., perhaps, someday)

Mark

More reality for your consideration...
 

Gentlemen, what I have accomplished here is to copy and present the Colombian law, Decreto No 2685 Artículos 158, 159, 161, in the original spanish that prohibits a foreign tourist to sell (transfer title) her/his legally owned foreign registered (USA, Canada, EU, germany, Australia, etc) in Colombia.

I presented the law so foreign tourists would be better informed when deciding to buy, or not to buy, the foreign registered (USA, etc) motorcycle offered for sale by another foreign tourist in Colombia.

As offered, I will next present the title transfer laws of the 6 States of the United States mentioned by Markharf. Earlier in this thread I have copied and presented the Arizona title transfer law and created a short, explanative story based in Santiago, Chile. If you are considering buying a motorcycle registered in Arizona, please read my story Sam, Joe and Barbara, all 3 parts.

kaiserkyh, here is my exact quote, please read it again, and reconsider your response. I have not accused you of benefiting of anything or not. I certainly have not called you a criminal.

"kaiserkyh, I have no idea how much time, energy or investment you have regarding your recent suggestion of transferring the title of a foreign registered (USA, Australia, EU, Germany or any country for which the motorcycle was required to obtain a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit TVIP) "before he enters the next country" but, I am obligated to advise you that you might be misleading others who rely on the HUBB for accurate information."

For those interested in the actual title transfer laws for the 6 states mentioned by Markharf, I will post those laws after dinner.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

In terms of answering the two questions of the original poster this thread has failed miserably. So for the sake of keeping things on track, here are the two questions:

First question: does anybody have any experience getting his drivers licence in Peru?

Second question: Is it possible at all to buy a bike in Peru, drive it all the way to argentina and then sell it there?

What multiple choice tests have to do with answering these two questions is just beyond me. It is a waste of time and, quite frankly, childish.

Childish?
 

Considering I did not answer the first question posed on this thread, I assume you are characterizing my answers to the second question.

In his second question, Joentje100 is asking if he can buy a motorcycle in Peru and sell it in Argentina.

As indicated by my posts on this thread, an Argentine registered motorcycle or any "foreign registered motorcycle (USA, EU, Canada, Britain etc) that has entered Peru on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit (TVIP) cannot be bought or sold in Peru. I mention Argentine registered motorcycles, because Joentje100 could legally sell an Argentine registered motorcycle in Argentina, but he could not legally buy an Argentine registered motorcyle in Peru.

I used the Colombian TVIP regulation, which is by international agreement also the TVIP issued in Peru as an example. In the course of my discussion, with others on this thread the legality or illegality of buying and selling a foreign registered motorcycle in Colombia became the test case for Joentje100's second question.

Once the illegality of buying a foreign registered motorcycle in Colombia was established by presenting the actual law in Colombia, the question was answered regarding Joentje100 buying a foreign registered motorcycle in Peru. I made it very clear that the Colombian TVIP regulations were the same for all other South American countries.

Questions came up regarding the legality of transfer of title in several States of the United States, if both buyer and seller and the bike were in Colombia or any other South American Country. I handled these questions by presenting the regulations of title transfer of several states of the United States.

Regarding the issue of Joentje100, as a foreign tourist buying a motorcycle registered in Peru, I referred him to others who had more reality on this aspect of his question than I.

I did make it clear it would be illegal for Joentje100 to sell a motorcycle registered in Peru or, (any foreign registered motorcycle that he entered into Argentina on a TVIP) in Argentina.

The multiple choice test was to ask all those reading here to offer an example of how Joentje100 could legally purchase a foreign registered motorcycle entered into Peru, or any other South American country, by a foreign tourist with a TVIP.

Several examples of how he could were raised and I answered each with the actual laws or regulations regarding the specific example. I also made the point, several times that illegal transfer of title null and voids all insurance coverage and the buyer runs the risk of criminal prosecution for the illegal importation of a motorcycle if he entered any country adjoining the country for which a TVIP was issued to the "seller" more appropriately described here as the real owner of the motorcycle.

I am at a loss to find anything childish in my posts on this thread. Please explain.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Why? Here is Why!
 

Markharf and all.....

It is after dinner, I am still researching the present vehicle title transfer laws, researched from the official web pages of the Department of Motor Vehicles of each state, for which Markharf holds the position that legal transfer of title is possible as described in this thread.

I am going to respond to Markharf's suspicion of anyone who unlike himself would take the "time, energy or self interest" of presenting the legal aspects of vehicle title transfer by foreign tourists in South America.

Perhaps he missed my post this tread explaining that I have worked for three years in Mexico for the International Red Cross (Cruz Roja) and one of my duties was to visit, keep track of, US citizens being held in Mexican jails.

During my numerous visits to US citizens held in Mexican jails, a small but significant number were being held because they had been involved in a motor vehicle accident resulting in a death or significant property damage. Some of this group were obviously not at fault in the accident, but were awaiting an official determination of a judge for their release. The police on the streets in Mexico and most other Latin American countries are not authorized to determine fault in serious motor vehicle accidents, and policy dictates that who might possibly be at fault (everyone involved) is arrested and transported to jail.

Those who had purchased a valid motor vehicle liability (insurance policy) were allowed to contact their insurance agent, who, especially for foreign tourists visiting Mexico, would go to the jail, with an attorney if required, and attempt to bail out their client.

In most cases, other than intentional vehicle manslaughter, drunk or drugged driving, an accident resulting from the use of a motor vehicle engaged in a felony crime, the US citizen would be given a court appearance date and released from jail, with his insurance company as bond holder certifying that he would appear before the court at the specified time.

The relationship of my experiences to Joentje100 original question is obvious. If a foreign tourist executes an illegal title transfer while buying a motorcycle in Peru and then while riding that motorcycle is involved in a serious accident, ends up, as previously explained in a South American jail he would then be required to present proof of a valid motor insurance vehicle policy or would remain in jail until his appearance before a judge that would result in his release or in further judicial processes or immediate sentencing.

If Joentje100 had purchased insurance for the motorcycle that he aquired through illegal title transfer, by the laws of Peru or the laws of the country/state where the motorcycle was registered to the seller, this fact would be quickly discovered by an attorney representing the insurance company retained by joentje100, and he might be charged with fraud for illegally buying insurance for a motorcycle he did not legally own.

At least, the insurance company would withdraw from the representation of Joentje100 and he would not be bailed out of jail and would wait months in jail for his apperance before a judge.

If Joentje100 had crossed a border with "his" motorcycle, obtained via illegal title transfer, and while Joentje100 was still waiting in jail as a result of the accident, he might also be criminally charged for the illegal importation of a motorcycle.

Markharf and all, if you understood the importance of preventing illegal title transfers of motor vehicles in South America, and as I have explained above, you might be more understanding and perhaps even appreciative of the time and energy I have expended on this thread.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Title Transfer regs for NC, Mass, Cal, Col, Wash, and Az
 

Markharf and all, contrary to Markharf's position it would be illegal for one foreign tourist to sell a motorcycle registered in any of the six States, suggested by Markharf, (or registered in any other State of the United States) to another foreign tourist while both and the motorcycle are in a South American country. Here are the reasons why! If you know any information that contradicts what I have posted here please share it on this thread. Thank you for taking the time to read these and other US title transfer regulations, your liberty may be held in the balance. Now for a cup of coffee at one of the street cafes in "mi ciudad" Buenos Aires.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________

I will now present the reality of title transfer laws for each US State Markharf holds as a State that would permit a motorcycle registered in that State could be sold (title transferred) by a foreign tourist to another foreign tourist while both and the motorcycle are in a South American country.
Once it is determined and I provide herethe reason the above described title transfer would be illegal I will cite the regulation and move on to the next State. There will be many regulations that would prohibit title transfer of a motorcycle registered in North Carolina from one foreign tourist to another, but I will stop listing when my point is made....

NORTH CAROLINA

NCDOT Division of Motor Vehicles: How do I title & register a vehicle?

[B]You must present a valid North Carolina Driver License or a North Carolina Identification Card to register a vehicle in North Carolina [/B]as stated in N.C. General Statute 20-52(a). North Carolina now issues driver licenses from a central location and mails them to applicants. After you apply for a driver license, you will receive a 20-day Temporary Driving Certificate to be used for driving purposes only until you receive your driver license. Your new license will be mailed within five to 10 days. You will be able to use your new license to register your vehicle in North Carolina.

NCDOT Division of Motor Vehicles: Insurance Requirements

The Vehicle Financial Responsibility Act of 1957 requires that all motor vehicles registered in the state must be covered by an automobile liability insurance policy and that the insurance must remain in effect with continuous coverage until the registration is terminated.
When titling/registering your vehicle you will need to provide proof of insurance.
Acceptable proofs of insurance include:
Owner provides insurance company name and policy number (Self Certification)
Or a Certificate of Insurance (FS-1), obtained from an Insurance Company that is licensed to do business in North Carolina.
Minimum Liability Insurance Requirements for Licensing:
The minimum requirements of liability insurance for a private passenger vehicle is $30,000 for bodily injury for one person; $60,000 bodily injury for two or more people and $25,000 property damage. North Carolina law requires each company to notify the DMV when coverage has been cancelled.


Are you selling/donating a vehicle? NORTH CAROLINA

When selling a vehicle or donating a vehicle the following items are required on the back of the North Carolina title:
Purchaser's name and address
Date of sale or date of delivery
Seller's signature and hand printed name
Odometer Reading
Notarization
Damage Disclosure

For more information regarding selling/donating a vehicle you may call 919-715-7000.

If you are selling your vehicle and you are not transferring the plate to another vehicle, the plate needs to be turned in at your local Vehicle & License Plate Renewal Office before you cancel your insurance.

For general information on registering your vehicle view our How do I title & register a vehicle? Section.

MASSACHUSETTS

http://www.mass.gov/rmv/dmanual/chapter6.pdf

New Registrations
To register a newly acquired new or used vehicle, you must follow these steps:
1. Go to an authorized Massachusetts insurance agent and have the agent fill out, stamp,
and sign an RMV*1 form, which is an application for registration and title.
2. After verifying the information, sign the application.
3. Take the completed RMV*1 application, along with the Certificate of Origin for a new
vehicle, the previous owner's certificate of title for a used vehicle, or a bill of sale and
copy of last registration for a non*titled vehicle, to a full*service RMV branch.
5. Pay the registration fee and title fee (the regular fee for private passenger vehicles is
$50); special registration plates require an additional fee for each renewal period. The
title fee is $75.
6. State law requires you to have your vehicle undergo a Massachusetts motor
vehicle inspection within seven days of registration (see the Vehicle Inspections
section later in this chapter).


CALIFORNIA:

California Department of Motor Vehicles

California Title Transfer regulations from the California Dept of Motor Vehicles have previously been posted on this thread.

COLORADO

Department of Revenue - Division of Motor Vehicles:

Applying for a Colorado Title

Take all required documents to your county motor vehicle office. You will need to pay the vehicle title fees, registration fees and any applicable sales tax.

Your Colorado title will be mailed to you when there are no liens filed against your vehicle. If there is a lien, the title will be mailed to the lienholder. Please allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery.


Registration of your vehicle(s) may be denied or delayed if the Colorado Motor Vehicle Registration file does not show insurance coverage for the vehicle(s).

Forms of Proof:
Insurance card
Copy of your insurance policy
A letter from your insurance company (on company letterhead)
You must provide any of these forms of proof to your county motor vehicle office before you can register your vehicle(s).

Secure and Verifiable ID is required to obtain:
• New Titles
• Duplicate Titles (original title issued on or after 07/01/2006)
• New Registrations
• New Temporary Registration Permits
• New Placards
The following types of identification are Secure and Verifiable:
• Any Colorado Driver License, Colorado Driver Permit or Colorado Identification Card,
current or expired one year or less. (Valid temporary paper license with invalid Colorado
Driver’s License, Colorado Driver’s Permit, or Colorado Identification Card, expired one
year or less is acceptable.)
• Out-of-state issued photo driver’s license or photo identification card, photo driver’s
permit current or expired one year or less.
• U.S. Passport or U.S. Passport Card, current or expired less than 10 years.
• Valid foreign passport with I-94 or valid processed for I551 stamps. Exception: Canadian
Passport may not have I-94 attached.
• Valid I-94 issued by U.S. Immigration with L1 or R1 status and a valid Canadian drivers
license or valid Canadian identification card.
• Valid I551 Resident Alien/Permanent Resident card. No border crosser or USA B1/B2
Visa/BCC cards.
• Valid I688 Temporary Resident, I688B, and I766 Employment Authorization Card with
intact photo.
• Valid US Military ID (active duty, dependent, retired, reserve and National Guard).
• Tribal Identification Card with intact photo. (U.S. or Canadian)
• Certificate of Naturalization with intact photo.
• Certificate of (US) Citizenship with intact photo.
If you have questions about Secure and Verifiable Identification, please contact the Title and
Registration Sections at 303-205-5608.



WASHINGTON Washington State certified Notary Public required!

WA State Licensing: Transfer ownership when buying from a private party

Transferring ownership when buying from a private party
Who is responsible for transferring ownership
If you buy from a private party or receive a vehicle as a gift, you are responsible for transferring ownership of the vehicle into your name within 15 days.

What you’ll need
When you finalize the sale of a car, motorcycle, or other vehicle, make sure you receive all the documents required to transfer the title. These documents may include the following:
Vehicle Certificate of Ownership (title) — The seller must release ownership of the vehicle by signing in the appropriate place on the title. All persons listed on the title must sign it.
Affidavit of Loss/Release of Interest — If the title is lost, the seller must complete an Affidavit of Loss/Release of Interest and sign it in the presence of a notary public, county auditor, or licensing subagent. All persons listed on the vehicle record must sign it.
Bill of sale — This receipt is needed to calculate the use tax you must pay when you purchase a vehicle from a private party.
Emissions testing report — Emissions testing is required in urban areas of Clark, King, Pierce, Snohomish, and Spokane counties.
Vehicle Title Application — If you mail your documents to us, you must include a notarized Vehicle Certificate of Ownership Application.
Odometer Disclosure Statement — If the vehicle is less than 10 years old, BOTH the buyer and seller must state the mileage and sign, either on the title itself or on an Odometer Disclosure Statement form.

Note: The Odometer Disclosure Statement isn’t available online or via email because it is printed on tamperproof paper.
To get 1 or 2 copies of the form:
visit any vehicle licensing office.
email a request with your name and mailing address to titles@dol.wa.gov.
call (360) 902-3770.
To get more than 2 copies of the form, call the Washington State Dealers Association at 1-800-998-9723.
How to transfer ownership into your name
Visit a vehicle licensing office. The licensing agent will help you through the process.
OR
Mail your notarized Vehicle Certificate of Ownership Application with all supporting documents and a check or money order for the fee to any vehicle licensing office.
You should receive the vehicle title 6–8 weeks after you transfer ownership into your name.

Deadlines and penalties
You must transfer ownership into your name within 15 calendar days from the date of purchase, or pay the following penalties:
$25 on the 16th day.
$2 per day for each day after the 16th day, up to a maximum of $100.
Fees
Please contact a vehicle licensing office to find out exactly how much it will cost to transfer ownership of the vehicle into your name.

ARIZONA The Arizona Dept of Motor Vehicle title transfer requirements has been posted on this thread in my story of Sam, Joe and Barbara Parts I. II. & III there you will find that an Arizona State certified Notary Public is required to witness the signatures of both seller and buyer for a legal title transfer.

Motor Vehicle Division

It's Your Plate
& Your Money!

Seller

When a vehicle is sold (or otherwise transferred) you, the seller, should:

Sign off the back of the title and have your signature notarized.
Give the title to the buyer with any lien release, if applicable.
Complete a sold notice online, or on the back of the vehicle registration.
Remove and retain the license plate, instead of leaving the plate on the vehicle. The plate belongs to you, the vehicle owner not the vehicle. You can later transfer the plate to another vehicle that you register.
Request a refund (see Refunds below). –or–
Transfer the plate credit to another vehicle owned (see Credit For Fees below).

Buyer

Upon sale or transfer of a vehicle, the registration for that vehicle is no longer valid. The buyer must visit any MVD or authorized Third Party office to transfer the plate and register the vehicle.

If it is necessary to drive the vehicle to complete this transaction, the buyer must obtain a Restricted Use 3-Day Permit, for private sales, or a Temporary Registration Plate, for vehicles purchased from a licensed dealer (see Temporary Registrations below).

Credit for Fees

When you transfer a plate to another vehicle (same owner), you may be eligible to receive credit for fees previously paid on the vehicle that was sold or transferred. There a $12.00 processing fee to apply the remaining credit.

Don’t wait . . . credit reduces each month when credit or refund is not requested.
Credit will be based on the number of months left on the registration of the previous vehicle at the time the credit is applied.
For example, if the registration on a vehicle was renewed in June for one year and the vehicle is sold in December, then 6 months of the fees are remaining and may be applied as credit. If application for registration of another vehicle is not submitted until January, there will be only 5 months left on the previous registration that may be applied as credit.
Each month that passes, the number of creditable months is reduced by one, so that the potential credit will be reduced to zero at the same time as the registration on the previous vehicle would have expired.
Credit is allowed on fees and taxes paid for the following: Vehicle License Tax (VLT), Commercial Registration Fee (CRF), Weight Fee (WGT), Motor Carrier Fee (MCF) and Special Plate Fee (SPL).
Credit can only be applied toward those fees specifically required to register the next vehicle. For example, if the vehicle sold was registered commercially and the new vehicle purchased is registered as a passenger vehicle, the Commercial Registration Fee and Weight Fee will not be credited and will no longer be available.
Credit can be applied to one vehicle registration only. It cannot be divided between two or more vehicles.
Any credit remaining after the initial registration will automatically be refunded.
Plate credits may be viewed online.


Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Sorry Xfiltrate: I did not say "this is what you can do." I said, "This is what I have done." And what I have done during the past, oh, 5 years or so is buy two motorcycles and sell a car and a truck (in Washington state) without notary, and transfer ownership of one car (in North Carolina) without notary. I cannot account for the disparity between what you report and what I have experienced directly. Divine intercession, perhaps? I will add only that I am carrying the associated paperwork for one of my bikes--the one I'm riding--with me now, and a quick glance indicates no need for a notary....but of course, that's just title and registration.

I now depart this thread for other, more entertaining and illuminating threads. This time, like Richard Nixon, I really mean it.

enjoy,

Mark

Markharf, yes I understand your message was one of relating your own real personal experiences and not an invitation to others to act.

But, if you doubt my ability to copy and paste directly from the Official Washington State DMV of from the North Carolina DMV then I suggest you go those web sites and look.

Not so much as an Act of God or "Divine intercession" as you stated, but an upgrade on all US MDVs necessitated by "national security" or so says Homeland Security.

I cannot stand idle when I read posts that do encourage others, who rely on the HUBB, to illegally buy or sell foreign registered (USA, etc) bikes in South America, not in my capacity as a man with an innate tender concern for those who might not know the laws of foreign lands or perhaps laws of their own lands. And not in my capacity as a HUBB moderator.

Markharf...I do not count you among those who for the sake of a fast buck would entice their fellow travelers into potential danger.

I have made my point here, not by my words, but by copying and posting the South and North American laws and regulations that govern title transfers of foreign registered motorcycles from one foreign tourist to another while riding through South America.

Thank you joentje100 for your questions, I do hope you have found an answer to your second question as for your first question, if any one knows the law regarding a foreign tourist securing a driving permit in Peru, please post here.

Markhard, if you find a thread more entertaining and illuminating than this one has been, let me know and I will join you.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

I have not tried to get a Peruvian license, but in my experience you don't need one. Never have I been asked for my license in any of the countries you mention, but a foreign license is just as good as an international one. You can use your foreign license or you could get an international license, but I believe this might have to be done in you own country.

As far as buying a bike in Peru, if you buy from a Peruvian, you will not be allowed to legally exit the country on the bike. Legality aside, it is quite popular for foreigners to buy bikes from other foreigners and in most cases they are able to travel to other counties w/o problems. Obviously, if some sort of incident occurred, the legality of your bike papers may come under a higher level of scrutiny. OTH, in less developed counties this is likely to be as much of a problem. You could also use the exit via north Titicaca route which becoming quite common for those on dicey papers, the Bolivian authorities seem to have no problem with this.

In fact, afaik, it is entirely legal to use a "power of attorney" (POA) to "give" (the fact that a sum was paid is irrelevant to the POA) another person full rights (including the right to sell) to your motorcycle. I have traveled to 5 countries with someone else's title and my POA has not caused trouble at any border crossing. The POA method of transferring ownership is common in most S Am countries, the document is recognized and if correctly written, seldom seems to present problems.

In conclusion, there seems to be 2 main schools of thought on international bike touring.

School 1 -- Be prepared for any eventuality: Make sure you have a legally owned and internationally insured bike and have dotted all i's and crossed all t's. This method is most often pursued by older and richer long distance tourers covering a multitude of countries. Think of a couple in their 60's on fully decked GSA's staying in nice hotels and working with well fueled bank accounts.

In S Am, this means buying a bike from your home country or the states and riding or shipping it to S Am or buying and insuring in Chile.

School 2 -- On the Cheap: Figure out what other like minded people are getting away with and follow their lead. These folks are often young backpack style travelers that are sick of the bus and want to up the adv level. They have tight budgets, stay in the cheapest of hostels and go on local bikes with a minimum of gear, paperwork and/or forethought. They bank on luck, praying that no major accident will occur and are more inclined to go w/o insurance, cross the Bolivian Altiplano on thin rubber and might even collect a young Israeli gal for the pillion as they struggle along from breakdown to border solving each potential problem as they occur.

Think of the 20 sumpin Aussie dude that throws $500 cash to an Israeli kid in Manali, India for and Enfield 350 w/o a shred of paperwork and sets off for Ladakh & Kashmir.

In S Am, this means getting a bike off another traveler, doing a POA or pShopping up some paperwork, then twisting the throttle or perhaps buying and selling cheapo Chinese bikes from locals in each country as you go.

There are also a gazillion levels in between. Look at your budget, assess your risk tolerance, and decide if you can/will afford and accept it and don't let your thirst for adv cloud your judgement.

good luck

School 3
 

School 3 - Be prepared for any eventuality on the cheap:

Get yourself, as a legal foreign tourist, to any South American country with your saddlebags, walk with one bag slung over your chest and one on your back meet your young Israeli woman and buy a legally registered used motorcycle from a local person, hundreds are in the classified ads, prep the bike for touring, fix it up a little, legally register the bike in your name and buy liability insurance, your liberty and she are worth it. Immediately put the bike up for sale in this country for more than you paid for it - get a very cheap cell phone, so you can start taking offers.

Tour like tigers the country where you legally purchased your fist bike in South America. Sell this bike, bus, hike hitch hike to the next country you want to tour, legally buy your second bike in South America, repeat all the above (especially the touring like tigers part) and travel on to another country and repeat. Make love at every opportunity.

Each time you buy and sell bikes, if you are cleaver, you will be upgrading, never downgrading, her parents will be pleased when she tells them how concerned you are about not breaking the law, buying insurance etc... and who knows by the time you are in your 60s you might be riding that GS, or not, without having to sell your soul.

glasswave, I truly enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for clarifying the obvious that we so often forget, we each are free, and indeed at liberty to make our choices, to take our own decisions.... until we violate mutually agreed upon laws in some jurisdiction, get caught, and then we suffer the consequences that might include losing our freedom.

We never read about the "I got caught part" on the HUBB, just the "I got away with it part." Foreign tourists do have accidents, they are arrested and they do go to South American jails, and some lose their liberty/ freedom for a long, long time. One does not have to be a 60 year old GS rider to legally buy a used bike in South America, and then legally purchase very inexpensive $35 -$40 USD per month liability insurance. Could someone explain what part is not understood?

When I was young I believed the world was fair, that I was entitled to my freedom, many years later, I learned that my freedom is precious and must be protected by my good judgement, my common sense and by being aware of obvious contingencies that might be a threat to my freedom.

Ride Hard, Ride Free

Eat, drink, Be Careful xfiltrate

Peru
 

If you buy a new or used Peruvian bike and have it transfered to your name THERE and wait for title, you can leave. I did it and know others who have.
Or if you can't wait, again, photoshop peru title and change your name and leave. Again, I know personally people who have done this.


You CAN sell bike in Peru to a Peruvian, just not one from Colombia, Ecuador or Chile , possibly Argentina as well. I know, I sold a Costa Rica bike there no problem.

Of course avoid Lima to do this. I did it in Cajamarca.

All this info or advice may or may not be legal so sue

Zig

:eek3:WOW Xfiltrate you are doing a huge amount of work here for the people! Good job man. We need to get a sticky with this info so you can just refer to that. I do not see a problem with any thing you posted and hope people will read and follow your out line.

the out line
 

did I understand that right, or ?

:thumbup1:

Thanks and a Point of Order
 

Dlbiten, I am a long time admirer of your posts and I thank you for your support here. Yes, I hope this thread is determined to be sticky quality.

Zigeuner53

A Point of Order: Happy New Year, I ride out with the Dakar Rally tomorrow, so this will be short.

As I have stated, it is legal for a foreign tourist to buy and sell Peruvian registered motorcycles in Peru. We agree on this.

What is illegal is to sell a motorcycle that has entered Peru on a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit - and this brings up my Point of Order.

Fraudulently altering or transferring titles is not a civil offense for which one might be sued, it is a criminal offense for which one might go to jail.

Inviting me to sue you for a criminal offense does not make sense.

It is true, if a foreign tourist is riding a motorcycle illegally - by reason of altered documents, or a title that has been illegally transferred, and has an accident involving substantial property damage or personal injury the criminal court can award damages ($)to the victim, but this is not a law suit in the common definition.

After the criminal case the victim can then sue the foreign tourist in civil court. Meanwhile, once the court discovers the fraudulent (faked) documents, all insurance coverage is null and void and the foreign tourist will be held in jail until all - criminal and civil actions have run through the court system. This takes years...

So there is my Point of Order. Perhaps not in out line form, but easy to understand just the same.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Thank you xfiltrate.
Xfiltrate has posted time and agen on how get a bike a ride in South America legal. Helping many pensonly do just that. You may chose a different path than the one he shows you may get away with it. Just remember not every place we ride threw has the safety nets as most of the EU or US or Canada has. Hurting some one out there may mean they live out there life that way there is no just pop off to hospital be out in week right as rain pay nothing. There life may be bit more grim, we ride there we see how some must live. He has posted as a person that lives there and is working with the laws he has. Posting how to get away with things illegally is gray area on the HUBB and at the VARY least looked down upon.

If you want to talk about what can be done in theory well ok. In most cities there are areas that sell forged documents as well as computers that can scan in a document and then it be altered then printed and laminated. Then there is the bribing your way passed and threw any other problem you may have. This being said however the time you will spend in jail will go up with each offence each document you have. You can also gust get a fast bike and not stop but they do have the right to stop you any way they want and they have guns. This is not bribing your way out of a speeding ticket or to get stamps done faster at the border. You are taking away a way some states make money they do not like that. It is up to you It is real world there real nasty jails and real guns.

but on to the to the Qs and As

1) This Question has came up 3 times this year that I know of someone in the Americas no licence and going to take a long ride and wanting to know how to do it. Your Dutch one one will do just fine. If you do not have one well In short really no legal easy way. You can try to get legal help from a lawer and of the Dutch embassy there.
2) get a small bike say a 125 to 250 and ride slow and have a grate time. Take it to xfiltrate pay him to keep it, it will be there when you get back. Or pay the tax on it and give it away, sell it for the tax, do not know if it is true but read some place you can give to the cops and the border guards and get a tax stamp saying you paid.