|
Quote:
Tobi you advertise you business as a North American to target your customers, and they expect you doing business the American way, making sure the customer will want to come back or tell a friend there is no better place to buy a motorcycle or have the best service. Buying a motorcycle from you should never be each rider his own adventure. |
I was also a customer of Toby. My overall experience with the company is rather mixed.
- I bought a Honda XRE300 for around 6300$ (you can buy it for 5300$ at a Honda dealer in Lima) from him early 2018 - Arriving in Huanuco the bike was ready and we met the local Peruvian mechanics. They were super nice and even invited my friend and me for having dinner with them. A really great experience. However, Toby was not there, he was in the US. This was a bit weird for us, since he never mentioned it to me. Our Spanish was not so good and we were expecting to have him around. The paper process was super smooth. There were minor problems on the bikes. My USB charger didn't work, my friends' tire was mounted the wrong way around. Minor things, but you need to check things by yourself and don't just fully trust. - I went for the trip, the bike was very good, Honda quality. The custom paniers broke after 15k. - For me, the buying back deal was the main reason to use his service and to pay a bit more in the first place. After 6 months, in August 2018, I brought the bike back. Everything was fine. Toby wasn't there again though. - The problem was that Toby never could sell the bike. He wanted to sell it for 5868$ (I would have got back 4500$) which hardly makes sense given that you can buy one for 5300$ new. I asked him to lower the price. The problem is that there are multiple other XREs in the selling queue before me which no one wants to buy and he wanted to sell mine to the reduced price only after selling the others before. So I was basically trapped. He proposed to rent the bike for some weeks and we split the income 50/50. That was nice. - I came back to Peru in June 2019, went to Huanuco and recuperated the bike to sell it by myself in Lima. That was the first time I met Toby. We did my part of the paperwork and I went to Lima. - I used the bike again for 2 months and then before leaving Peru I found a buyer to sell the bike. During the selling process, we realized that the bike was not transferred to my name at all. Apparently, the guy who should have done this for Toby went on holiday and forgot to do the process properly. - In consequence, I couldn't finish selling the bike as planned before my return flight and the buyer wasn't interested anymore. - Toby organized a poder for my Peruvian girlfriend to sell the bike in his name. In the end, it worked out, but it involved quite a lot of administrative effort and quite some miscommunication in terms of how fast things are going to be. - In all this process I had the impression that the communication of Toby was very much on the arrogant side of the spectrum. So for me, the entire buyback deal turned out to be useless. I would have been much better of in just walking into a Honda store and buy a bike and then sell it by myself. Having said all those things, I think Toby is generally a good guy, but the entire business idea of the buying back model didn't work at all for me. |
I think it is proper that I reply..
First know that ahee and I have been conversing. Ahee, I appreciate your kind words and also you truthfulness and viewpoint. Sorry, not all things about the experience met your expectations, but I'd like to address each item: 1) Our prices. Yes, there is a 'Value-Added'. There is the cost (and risk) of transferring the funds to to Peru do this service for you. We order the moto from the dealer to make sure it's point of registry is Huanuco, thus applying the tax-free zone status (18% less) and the simplicity of the paperwork (faster and 50% cost than in Lima) and the cost of insurance (71% cheaper than if moto is registered in Lima). We fully tear the bike down and put it back together as we believe is necessary for a successful trip. No veteran would start on a 3-6 month trip without doing this, even to a NEW motorcycle. HONDA QUALITY is not what it used to be unless you are buying a 650cc+ bike made in Japan. The Honda 150cc and lower are made in China. The 200cc-300cc are made in other places like Tailand and Brazil. We have found virtually NO grease in the steering and rear suspension of the XRE300 and the CRF250L (Yamaha XTZ250 TENERE too!). We find spokes not right and wheels not true. The engines are gutless from the factory with no mid-range due to cat conv. and muffler baffles. We fully cut open the exhausts and rebuild them into glass-paks increasing the HP a bit (especially at altitude) and HUGE change to the mid-range where you will be mostly needing it in the Andes riding with luggage (or a passenger!). We build it back up with LockTite and diaelectric grease (especially thinking of you who insist on riding on the Salares of Bolivia). The Honda dealership insists on the wrong oil for engine break-in. We use MOTUL 3000 and do the break-in ourselves so that you, upon your arrival can immediately load it and go. We replace the break-in oil with full synthetic and new oil filter. We chase the owners card, then the license plate, then the 1 year SOAT insurance (also included in the price). We install strong aluminum bark-buster handguards because we KNOW there will be falls and brushes in traffic. We build and equip the bikes with custom rear top racks (these Hondas have none) and side racks triangulated to the lower part of the frame. We communicate closely with your needs and desires (often 80 some email exchanges), give you advice, buy your bus tickets, so you get the best seat, hostel reservations, free maps if you wish. Even included in the price is 2-hours of maintenance training by Jaime our lead tech. When you arrive we have all the paperwork ready, process your PERMISO ESPECIAL so that you can sign as a tourist, and pay for the transfer to your name. Then we follow the name change process with the Peruvian Vehicle Registry (yes, ahee... yours got away from us) and when the change is made we go stand in line to get an official copy, scan and send it to you via email while you are enjoying your ride. All that is called 'Value-Added'. Some value it, some don't. So yes, our motorcycles, ready for you just to sign a paper and ride away with everything you need are very different than you just buying from the dealer and doing it all on your own (the paperwork and license plate alone would take 3 weeks!). 2) The difference in price between the 'Buy Back' and the 'Used/Made-New'. Yes, there is a big difference in that we take it all apart, strip the frame, check for cracks, repaint the frame and put it back together with care. We replace all wheel bearings, steering bearings, brake pads, chain and sprockets, brake fluid, get the wheels re-aligned, replace new inner tubes and tires, and any other item showing undue wear or damage. We repack the exhaust, rebuild the engine, seat the engine in and make the necessary adjustments post break in. Yes, there is a difference, but it is not profit. It is just parts and labor for the shop. We even take the responsibility of selling it for you while you just sign (name transfer which is also included in the price) and catch your plane. There is not even a storage fee until it sells. Meanwhile (if you are in agreement and until it sells as a 'Used/Made New' model), we rent it for you and that is extra cash for you ASIDE from the Buy Back amount when it does sell. We even pay the cost of sending your $$ to you. 3) I travel. Yes, I go to Moto Expos in the USA, I lead tours, I have a family. I am not there when every customer arrives. I am electronically present and our staff knows what to do. For those who speak no Spanish it can be a bit stressful as the staff (at this point) has some, but limited Spanish. There is alot you are going to face by yourself traveling all over South America, and your Spanish familiarity can make or break you trip! 4) Expectations. We all read into things what we want to happen (or believe SHOULD happen). Heck! I've been happily married now for 35 years and STILL miss my wife's expectations from time to time! "How did you understand THAT from what I said?" We chat 2 hours a day even when we are apart! But we find that righteousness and blame only worsen the situation. Chaz, I'm sure that you are reading this as you originated this thread. I wanted to let you know that we now have a handle on the Peruvian customs screw-up that made you lose 6 days at the border. We now have contracted a customs official (an actual Peruvian customs desk/computer system person) to pre-research every one of our motorcycles in their data systems to make sure we head off the issue with official documentation (almost like a court case) long before the customer heads off on his ride! Chaz..., your grief is now a help to many other riders. Thanks for that gift to the Motoquero community! |
Man, after the whole "poder wars" and from what you have said before about people not having bikes in their name and possibly losing them, you let one of your customers ride through multiple countries with a bike which was NEVER in their name?
A buyback scheme (the kind that you pay FAR over retail price for a bike for, should mean that you return the bike and get the agreed amount if money back, not wait for you to sell it first. I can comment on this because I now own Ahee's bike. The "permiso para firmar contratos" took me ten minutes, 16 soles. And the cost to transfer was 270 soles (less than 100 usd). Because of errors you've made and the queer way that your "buyback" works ahee has lost a lot of money, are you offering any compensation? Have you offered any compensation to chaz for his 6 lost days of travel? Long story short you're charging a lot for your services, back them up when they don't match up to expectations. |
Quote:
Yes, the screw-up was with the notary we used. Ahee wasn't trying to leave the country, just use the moto within Peru for a while, then sell it himself. When he went to sell it we found out the issue, so we (that very day) did a Poder (and paid for it) and paid for the registry of it with the SUNARP, for his girlfriend to sell for him (yes it took another week for the Peruvian Registry to approve the Poder, but we cannot influence the regular speed of government). But for this reason that the issue was on our end, we agreed to pay all the expenses of his Compra-Venta to you. As far as prices and how long it takes to re-sell a moto, Ahee, and every other customer signs a 4-page contract that explains every detail about how our "scheme" works and gives the full reason for our prices, both Purchase and Buy Back. Everything is disclosed and understood before any $$ is exchanged. No promise is made to how quickly a moto will sell. Ahee even received extra cash from the rental of his motorcycle while it was waiting for it to sell and he would have STILL received the full amount when it sold if he had left it with us. In Chaz's case, the error was with Peruvian customs, technically not our responsibility. That information is not even available to the public, but nevertheless, because of what Chaz went through, we have found (and pay for) a back-door with customs to pre-research if Peruvian customs (or a prior owner of the moto) did something wrong. And we pay for lawyer representation to correct it before there is a border issue. What is your beef we us? What have we done to you? If you don't value our services, don't use us! That's your right. But this being 2 cases (tho very important to them) out of more than 200 customers, your venom seems a bit misplaced. |
What's important to you?
Having rented bikes in a number of countries, I can tell you I'm happy to pay to keep companies going who take care of their customers when things go wrong, very wrong (and I'm not talking about border crossing hassles, or flat tires here) and who make every effort to correct mistakes- even the mistakes of others. I've recently put Toby's company high on my list of companies I'll go back to again. I rented a Honda 300 from Toby last Spring. I arrived in Lima, spent a couple of days in town and then boarded an overnight bus with a nice cushy seat to sleep in that Toby had ordered up for me. This was a great service, and made getting out of Lima pretty easy for me. On the way to Huanuco, the bus was delayed for 6 hours by ' una Huelga', a miner's strike turning it into a 15 hour ride. Buses and trucks lined up for miles on a 4500 m pass, going nowhere.... https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0909.jpg Toby generously adjusted my rental start to accommodate my lost day, though obviously it was not his fault and we had a prior agreement. The Honda was set up exactly as I had requested with hard bags and was in great shape with a fresh chain and new tires. I was instructed in how to check the oil, issued a bit of extra oil, chain lube, inner tubes, tools, etc. I chatted with Toby for an hour or two about possible routes and then rode off. https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0925.jpg My ride was starting out fantastic.... https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0940.jpg https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0929.jpg Then I had the misfortune of breaking my leg. https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...rdwrXray_1.jpg I spent a few days lying around in my hostal, after being misdiagnosed in the local emergency room. When I finally decided that I wasn't going to be walking soon, much less riding, I contacted my wife who got in touch with Toby and he got into action. He stayed in touch with me and my wife constantly, keeping us abreast of the arrangements he was making on my behalf. He arranged for the bike to be transported back to Huanuco by a couple of the guys working in his associated shop. They also got me a long distance taxi, and rode along with me, taking care of all the travel details that I would have had trouble accomplishing: like arranging overnight lodging, a trip to another hospital, meals, banking, and hauling my luggage around. I'm not a person who usually needs someone making reservations and guiding me, but things look a lot different when you're hurt and on crutches. Meanwhile, Toby was arranging a berth on a long distance overnight bus back to Lima, a driver to get me from the bus station to a hotel in Lima. He booked me a hotel room and a driver who would get me to the airport and help me with my baggage. I had left a bag behind at Toby's shop in Huanuco and he arranged for that to be waiting at my hotel in Lima when I arrived. This was all done while he himself was preparing for a trip that same day to the US to watch his daughter graduate from school. I'm healing up well, still limping but just got back on my bike a few weeks ago here in Colorado. I'm thinking about my future riding motorcycles in other countries. I think I probably will- my left leg needs to be a lot stronger, though, and I may be finished with solo travel. Peru is a place I'd like to return to- to finish my trip. The touring was great and the back-up I got from Toby when I was alone, hurt, and in need of a friend: just incredible. I recommend him highly, and hope his business thrives. He deserves it. .................shu |
After reading this thread I feel like there are some major things being left out. When you buy a bike from Toby in Peru you have the added comfort of doing business with a North American. How many of the guys criticizing Toby have done multi thousand dollar deals with Latin Americans? If you think your minor problems dealing with Toby's business are anything to whine about, wait until you do a big deal with a Latin American!
Quote:
Doing big business deals in Latin America is a pain in the butt for sure. I sold my motorcycle in Paraguay in 2008 and it was nightmare to finally get the deal done. I had to waste a month of my trip waiting for the deal to go through. I used Asuncion Motors and had a German friend helping me with every step of the way and it still took a month to get done. (I didn't get the money before I left and had to wait 2-3 more months for my German friend to send the money!). The greatest asset I see about Tony's offer is he takes that time quagmire off your hands. When you are done with your trip you can turn in your motorcycle to Toby and he will either sell it for you, or store it for free and you can return home on your schedule. You have to give him a reasonable amount of time to sell your bike. I think 1 year is reasonable. You can't expect Toby's shop to be perfect. The fasteners and bolts that they use may not be factory OEM, but you have to realize where you are. You are not in the USA, Europe anymore. Replacement parts are very expensive in Latin America. Toby is doing his best to train his staff to North American/ European standards and at the same time he has to run a business and make enough to get by. The one suggestion I would make to Toby is if you have an order of when you sell the same model of bikes, than I would get rid of that. If an owner wants to price their bike lower so that it sells faster, than he should be able to sell his bike first. As a former motorcycle business owner I can relate pretty well to Toby. In the E-age of doing business it doesn't matter how many of hundreds of times you go out of your way to help individual customers, the feedback you get back is still going to be that 1% of whiners. You had to buy a bottle of loctite? Yes, that is an inconvenience, but this guy goes out of his way to have his mechanics build custom pannier racks for you and you have the nerve to whine about that too! Like Tony mentioned with the 50-80 emails, there is no way that he is making more than $5 an hour with the time that he is putting into this. We have seen Shu's post now. We have an idea of the kind of "support" that Tony offers his own customer's and probably any advrider in the area. I would rather spend an extra few dollars at Tony's shop than try and go bargain hunting in Latin America. No one has mentioned the Darien Gap yet. If you buy your bike in South America you do not have to cross the Darien Gap which is a $1500 expense. Central America is a nightmare to have to cross. |
Toby - re the buy back thing. You've got more motorcycles now than every before right? So the selling queues are presumably longer than ever before? And there's always going to be some buyers who will only buy new, unless you manage to find an ever increasing number of people to buy the bikes, but obviously that is unsustainable. Doesn't this mean the wait times to sell bikes will get forever longer, turning from months to years?
(Also, that's good to hear about borders. I just crossed into Ecuador and that went smoothly) Above poster - the reason for my "whining" is because the only stuff i could find on the net before buying the bike was glowing praise (excluding that one thread from a few years back where the guy got slated). I don't think he lived up to those expectations. And, to restate what i originally said about the racks (drive you brought it up...); he asked for "dimensions of the bags", then built the rack to those dimensions without "mocking something up". If he had asked for dimensions for the racks, or had mocked anything up, it could have been done correctly. Its not like they were building the racks out of the kindness of their hearts, i had to pay for them. Of the 50-80 emails, most came after leaving Huanuco due to the numerous issues that came up (title not transferred, stuck at the border, stuck at the border again for different reason, all the little problems). Finally, again as i said in the first post, I'm commenting on his purchase/buy back thing, not the rental/tour side that shu's describing. |
Quote:
I cannot comment on the necessity of fully tearing down the bike, since I'm not a mechanic. What I know is that the bike was running very well, and I'm very thankful for this. On my Honda CRF 250 Rally (produced in Thailand) I didn't do anything and I don't have problems either though. Regarding the exhaust, have you done some systematic tests on the improved output? I was travelling with a friend who had a stock XRE 300 in all kind of altitudes and the performance of the two bikes felt exactly the same to me. Regarding the 2-hours maintenance training by Jaime our lead tech. It's the first time I'm hearing of this. I definitely haven't had it. My friend who bought a brand new Honda in Lima had all the paperwork done in 1 week, but maybe he was just lucky. 2) I believe you very much that this is tons of work. My problem for this is that in my case only very few people want to buy a used XRE300, so the buying back deal wasn't of any use to me. 3) That's totally fine, but it was just a surprise to me, since I did business with you and you were not there. 4) I agree very much. But I think it's now also your turn to carefully analyse the critical inputs of customers and make sure that the expectations are met better for future clients. E.g. explaining them very well how difficult it is for you to sell a XRE300. I would like to wrap up this by saying again that I appreciated all the work and time you put into this. I had a great time with your bike. But at the same time, I think it is important that you look at your services and reevaluate what actually brings added value. The preps and the paperwork could be, but I guess the buying backpack for the XRE not. For people having some patience, I would recommend to go to a Honda dealer and buy it from there. |
Quote:
I also saw this as the biggest asset of Toby services. But having seen that after 10 months the queue of XRE to sell in front of me hasn't been much smaller than 10 months before, didn't give me the impression that he ever will sell the bike. A bike also loses value over time. With this, I'm out here. |
.
Honestly guys stop your bashing about the past if it is that is all what you have to say. Posting here is for a better future, and Tobi made some moves in that direction.
I have lived or traveled to latin america over 40 years, bought dozens of vehicles, motorcycles or cars, and I can tell you his business is not the worst, and certainly didn't intend to screw his customers. On your next adventure buy from one of his competitors for the best deal, but it could turn out to be a big nightmare and I don't talk about mistakes. |
Your post was spot on
I too had a disaster with Toby. ARTB boasts about all the mechanical work they do to get the bike ready. The bike they provided me was well past its usable age and broke down many times from the cheap parts and terrible mechanical work. In fact it didnt even make the first mile. The cheap Chinese ignition broke down just a few blocks from his shop. The ultimate failure was an oil pump that BTW ATRB mechanic was working on when I go there. He actually tried to seal it up with silicon! It turned out that the owner of ARTB had spent my deposit and even though he agreed in writing to give it back when I returned the bike he pulled a fast one and burned me for 2700 USD. Yes I know people have good experiences but I can tell you from experience their work is shoddy and they cannot be trusted to do what they say. You will find out exactly what they are like as soon as a major problem occurs. I recommend doing your homework and checking out all options.
|
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:49. |