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Review of Toby Shannon's (Charapashanperu's) Around the block Moto Adventures
I'm posting this review of Around The Block Moto Adventures (ATBMA) as I have not had the greatest experience with this company or Toby Shannon. There are only one or two other neutral/negative reviews out there, but i don't think they are fair or lay out the facts clearly enough. Also, I know some people have had positive experiences with this business. From what I've read Toby seems capable of organising and leading tours (possibly to the detriment of the sales/buyback side of his business). But my experience buying a motorbike Toby has "prepared" has not been wholly positive.
Toby makes many claims on the website about prepping the bikes for your South American adventure and improving the quality control on the cheap Chinese bikes. In my experience his quality control seems to be lacking. These are the problems i found with the bike:
Toby says he has spoken to his mechanics and this shouldn't happen again. Additionally i don't believe his communication is up to scratch (both via email, and the information on the web page). I requested some custom pannier frames. Toby asked for dimensions of my bags, and I replied with the max XYZ dimensions. He replied shortly after saying “[I'll] mock up some possibilities and take some photos and you can decide on the angle, etc”. I emailed a couple of weeks later asking for an update and he replied with some photos of the welded frames and a bill. From the photos it was immediately clear the frames were too big, and that proved to be the case 2 months later when Amy had bruises covering her calves from where they were hitting her. We had to pay Toby for the clearly problematic frames and then hire someone else to chop then up and reweld them with more sensible dimensions. The other area which was lacking was Toby's suggestions that the bike would be ready to cross borders, without any mention of the realities of the situation. It's actually technically illegal to cross borders as a foreigner on a Peruvian bike without a carta poder. Admittedly it seems to be, for the most part possible, but was not a smooth experience for me, which Toby did nothing to assist with (any help at all figuring out how to leave with a carta poder would have been tremendously valuable). He has said he has come (/is coming?) to an arrangement with customs to make this process smoother. On the same note, when buying a “made-new” bike there is no mention that any fines or customs problems which the bike has accrued from previous owners will stay with the bike. No amount of changing oil or greasing bearings will solve this. My experience involved having to mess around with the customs for 4 days (ie 4 days mostly spent in a customs office). Toby did help put me in contact with the previous owner, which did allow me to provide the customs agent with some necessary information. Admittedly, regarding borders/customs, i probably should have been more aware of these risks. However I think Toby should make the risks more clear to prospective customers. Other things:
Toby has at least responded to my emails, but only offered excuses in return, not even so much as an apology, or, in the case of the mechanical problems, any admission that his business may have made any mistakes. Finally, I know of one other person who's had a similar experience, both regarding mechanical competence and border problems. I can post some of the details if people would like them, but they said they didn't really want to get involved with this review. Admittedly i don't only have complaints, so for balance i will include a few positives:
To reiterate. I know a lot of people have had good experiences with Toby, so he must be doing something right some of the time. With me though, things have gone wrong and Toby hasn't impressed me with his response. To summarise the above: If you are buying a bike off ATBMA for the purchase/buy back scheme i think it does make sense. If you are primarily using them for their quality control or mechanical "expertise" I'd strongly recommend considering all of your options. Tags for SEO: Around the block Moto Adventures, ATBMA, purchase and buy back, Toby Shannon, aroundtheblockmotoadventures.com, charapashanperu *In b4 toby says he facilitates resale and doesn't actually buy the bikes back. Whenever i have mentioned "buyback" (quoting from the website) he always mentions this. Toby, I know what the deal is, I'm just using your own lingo. :rolleyes2: |
Was chatting to another traveller last night who had an oil change done by Toby's chief mechanic, Jaime about 2 years ago. The oil didn't even reach the sight glass. So that's 2 people that I've met in person, by chance, who's Motos were also under/overfilled with oil from ATBMA. I'm no expert but there seems to be a pattern forming.
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I don't know about Toby's mechanic, but....I was riding somewhere in SE Asia on a rented 250 and stopped into a shop to have the oil changed. The oil filler plug is labeled, very reasonably, "OIL" in raised letters. The mechanic read that as 01 Liter, and would not be talked into adding more oil based on the (empty) sight glass. We got the owner involved, and argued it back and forth in mutually unintelligible languages. Finally I prevailed.
I never trust anyone, anywhere, to give me the right amount of oil. I check, make sure it's full, run the engine for a few seconds to distribute the oil, then check again and ensure that it's full. This is just standard operating procedure, particularly in the Developing World, where proper procedures are often considered mere suggestions. Similarly, many, but not all, of your complaints seem like Developing World issues. You didn't understand some of the border-crossing issues; Toby seemed in a hurry giving his intro talk; those custom racks needed some modifications; he marks up bus tickets for reselling to you. Some could as easily have been described in positive terms: Toby gave a good intro talk despite being rushed; he had custom racks made in advance to suit my luggage, although they did need some modifications on the ground; he will purchase bus tickets to suit your plans, selling to you at a premium, etc. Other complaints seem very appropriate: fastener issues (although no worse, from the sound of it, than my KLR!); unpaid fines which run with the bike, not the owner; incomplete information provided about shifting customs procedures. The inclusion of so many details makes it difficult to extract the important stuff--something which is also true of my own writing style on web forums. More on-topic, Toby has obviously viewed your complaint (identical on another forum). I'd be interested in hearing his response, along with learning how the buy-back portion of your trip goes. Hope you're having fun down there! Mark |
Mark,
Just biding my time while the other 300 happy customers put in their two cents.... |
Tobi, if I had sent you lot of $$ I would be very preoccupied. Will I send you my $$ knowing that your business short someone and you don't seem to care?
Which Tobi are you? |
Mark, perhaps you are right regarding always being slightly wary with mechanics in less developed countries, now i do pretty much everything, excluding fabrication, myself.
The reason for the wordy post is so i can cover everything, that way people can make their own judgements based the actual points. I don't think any prospective customers will be too fussed about having to sift through it all. I don't think any of the points individually is a particularly big issue, but they add up. Also, yes I'm having a great time. My Spanish is really coming along now so I'm meeting more and more locals :) Toby, i know you've got other happy customers. I think I've met/spoke to about 8 people who've had an encounter with your workshop. But, as i've said, 2 of those weren't impressed. I will also add, the bike hasn't really given me any major problems in 19k km. Its impossible to say how much is because it's a good bike and how much is because of the prep work described on the website (he says he changes fork fluid, greases bearings, and other things which are not trivial to check). My gut says it's the bike more than the prep, as the experiences on the internet are generally exceptionally good. The only RX3 rider I know who has had problems had put on about 70k miles, at which point a valve went through the piston. Apparently he was on top of valve clearances. |
CW-
I guess I'm a bit of a repeat customer for Toby. I bought a Honda Tornado a few years back, and have his shop store and service it. My wife also rented a Chinese moto last year, which did present some problems. My experience with my moto is included in a ride report I've kept up over the three trips to Peru at https://advrider.com/f/threads/leavi...eyond.1124497/ There is both good and bad in terms of how trouble free my moto was. In the end, it's the trip that's important, and the rare troubles with a moto can become a positive part of the trip because of how helpful folks can be to a gringo traveler. I tend to travel with a flexible schedule and attitude, vs some (not suggesting the OP) who have a more rigid schedule. Problems and issues become a more positive experience with this attitude. My impression of China motos: Not of the quality of the Honda manufactured in Brazil. The one we rented had weak brake issues. Jaimi, chief mechanic, told me that the China motos are not the same as Japanese motos. They are also a fraction of the cost. Take it with the territory. They do sell and rent Zongshen, which has a following here in the States. While discussing China motos, Jaimi thinks of the Zong as the best of the China motos. The shop has always gone out of their way to correct things whenever I've had problems. Toby is also an unbelievable resource for contacts and as a in Peru contact. He has good advice for routes, places to stay, and other things Peru. Human beings work in every shop, and so long as the mechanics are experienced and qualified, I'll take a mistake now and then. I cannot complain whenever I pay for work in Peru, because the labor rates are so low, when taking account for the US dollar/Peru Sole exchange rate. This kind of discussion is good, and why this forum exists. I believe if you want a top notch moto, the choice is a Japanese moto. If you want to travel on a budget with a China bike, there are some issues that come with the moto. No matter what improvements are made, some issues (brakes in my wife's experience), are part of the quality of the bike. On the same issue, I had what I believe are China clutch plates installed in my Honda, and they "were not good", a comment from a mechanic in Huaraz, who replaced them on one of my trips. You can read about that on my ride report. As an edit: I think there is a difference between a rental shop like Around the Block, and one like Freedom Bike Rental in Quito. I had some service done at Freedom, and of course at Around the Block. Both provided excellent service from my experience. Freedom, however, was incredibly expensive, a regret I had when I realized the cost of the service. Around the Block is catering to affordable moto travel in SA. Shops like Freedom are catering to upper end high cost travel. I'm not complaining about Freedom, but I regret not taking the moto to a small local shop in Quito instead. Around the Block is providing a service that makes moto travel in SA realistic for those with less then unlimited budgets. Toby can correct me, but I think this is a component of his business plan. Not that either one does not have some rough edges. Besides the discussion here, when I was at Freedom for service, there was a party who just took a rental and as I recall returned with moto troubles twice while I was waiting at the shop. Their attitude and treatment of the staff was embarrassing to me as a gringo, but they were having legitimate problems with their Japanese moto that were delaying the start of their high priced trip. Even shops catering to upper end clients can have problems. Whenever I pick up my moto, I always take it for a day long shake down ride prior to departing. I'd do that with any moto that I purchased or rented, be it located any where in the world including North America. BTW, the 300cc Honda that Toby rents/sells looks really good, with fuel injection and Honda quality! I'd go that direction if I didn't already own my Honda Tornado. |
I have heard lots of good comments about your business Toby I planed to ride down there and buy a m/c from him for the prep, and have the m/c papers ready to cross the border.
Tobi I wish you had commented here. You boost that you have that many happy customers, and you don't seem to have any regret that your customer had lost 4 days to cross the border. That guy trusted you, send you money, and you didn't deliver what he paid for. That could have happen to me or anyone reading here on this forum. Beleive me Tobi, by reading your reply, I'm way better off to fly directly to Brazil, buy the m/c there and do the prep myself. |
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Thank you for your honesty, but things are a bit different than they might seem. First, we make no profit on the sale and resale of the motorcycles. It is a service we provide for budget riders and it brings in the labor for the shop ($6 USD/hr). Also, the price of the motorcycle to the new purchaser INCLUDES: - the cost to transfer to Peru the funds ($80 to $138 USD per moto) for the purchase of the new moto or the parts and labor going into the 'used' moto. - 30 to 80 emails between us and the purchasing rider to make sure the moto and they are prepared as much as possible and that everything is as he/she would like it on the moto. - the prep (of a new moto) or the full rebuild (of a 'used' moto: new piston and rings, camchain, camchain adjuster, clutch plates, gaskets and seals in the engine, new brake pads/shoes, brake fluid, wheel bearings, steering bearings, fork seals, fork fluid, inner tubes and tires (of customers choice), O-Ring chain and sprockets. All this even if the prior owner may have only had it for 6 weeks! -the processing and costs of the motorcycle owners card, license plate, and Peru SOAT insurance for 1 year. - the cost and processing of the transfer of name to the purchaser when he/she arrives requiring only 1/2 hour of their time and they are ready to go with all the paperwork they need. This even includes standing hours in line at the Banco de la Nacion to pay for the PERMISO ESPECIAL DE FIRMAR CONTRATOS COMO TURISTA, (the permission for the foreigner to sign binding contracts in Peru) then processing it with Peru Immigration. - the cost of the name transfer if they choose bring the moto back to us for the Buy Back. - custom built (our standard) steel rear and side racks for luggage reinforced with triangulation to the rear footpegs to save the rear subframe from breaking. - Bark-buster handguards for falls or dangerous situations in traffic. - Professional seating in of the new engine, then change of oil and filter (if used) and post seat-in adjustments, so that when the new owner arrives they can load it and ride off on their Epic Trip. - so that the new moto owner does not have to wait, WE do the follow up with the Peruvian Vehicle Registry, getting the registry document that now has the new owner's name on it (the owners card only has that information in a bar code) and forwarding it to them where ever they happen to be in Peru. YES, all that does add costs to the new or 'used/made new' moto. What we are doing is saving you time (even weeks!) because your time may be VERY valuable and LIMITED. That is the service we provide. But YOU can save that extra cost (if you have the time and the Spanish knowledge) by doing this yourself. We DO NOT process your border crossings for you. We provide you with the documentation proving that the motorcycle is in YOUR name (via name transfer or PODER) which IS a requirement to take the moto OUT of Peru. Our website has always said: " We process the paperwork on the motorcycle into your name, a requirement to cross borders". Up until the experience of this customer it was the ONLY requirement as over 100 had done so prior to this. SOME border Aduana personnel at SOME border crossings, SOME of the time have decided that a detail in a law passed 17 months earlier would now be enforced requiring a PODER and the help of a Peruvian citizen. In the time since then only 30% have had to do this. Some just went back to the same border crossing at a different time and this was not required. Some others just went to a different border crossing and nothing was required. The fact that governments change their minds (new laws, some enforced, some not), and that border officials can decide what they want to do whether your paperwork is all in order or not, and that they may even want an 'incentive' to process what should be without cost or delay was not appreciated by this customer. Chile for example has changed their minds multiple times in JUST THIS LAST YEAR about whether a foreigner can take a Chilean moto OUT of Chile! Also, for this customer, Aduana looked into their computer system and found that the paperwork on this particular motorcycle (now at the Peru/Bolivia border) when it re-entered Peru (at the Peru/Ecuador border) a year prior with a previous owner, ADUANA (customs) ITSELF had failed to enter that information into THEIR OWN SYSTEM. They decided to hold this over this customer. We put this customer in touch with the prior owner and got him the passport proof of the Ecuador-Peru crossing to argue with the Aduana that it was THEIR ERROR. This caused the delay and extra costs for this customer. He demanded that WE reimburse him this lost time and $$. Who should pay for this Aduana error or inefficiency (or corruption)? - ATBMA who make no profit on the service of re-selling your used moto for you so that you don't lose time trying to sell it yourself? - The shop (who gets the labor from the rebuilding of the bike for the next rider) that makes $6 USD/hr? - The shop mechanics that make $4/labor hr to support their families? We not only provide the documents showing that the new rider is the new owner, but the document we provide from the Peru Vehicle Registry shows that the vehicle is FREE from all liens, judgements, and fines. An error by Customs at an international border doesn't show up. This is the only time we have had this situation with over 100 motos going out and crossing all SA borders. We DO go beyond what we promise on our website and help riders. There are many hundreds of posts on this forum and others where we provide advice, maps, links, and recommendations to riders that have no connection to ATBMA income. We have even spoken to Police (via phone) in other countries of SA asking them to be lenient of the foreign rider that struggles with Spanish! We have recommended distressed riders in far away places to our friends. We have ridden out 5 hours from our base (at no cost) to take gasoline to a rider who forgot to fill up before they left town! We have made service maintenance arrangements in other countries for riders who did not speak Spanish well. YES, we do mark up the bus tickets $1-$3 USD we purchase in the name of the customer arriving for our time and saving that customer the $8 it would cost them (and the loss of 2 hours time) to go to downtown Lima to purchase it themselves. The good bus seats on the safe bus can only be purchased IN PERSON 2-3 days in advance, so we help them with this. Then they only have to show up at the station and pick up their ticket when it is time to leave. We have never had another customer think that we were 'taking advantage' of them with this service!! We NOW (due to the experience of this customer) provide new riders with the new information of what some have recently faced and provide them with a copy of the type of PODER they MAY be requested to provide at SOME borders exiting Peru. We inform them of this new possible situation BEFORE they purchase a Peruvian motorcycle through us... What more can we do? South America is each riders own adventure! |
Would just like to point out that "This is the only time we have had this [problems crossing borders for the second time] situation with over 100 motos going out and crossing all SA borders" is definitely not true. The person (X) who i mentioned didn't want to be involved in this review had to pay ~$160 to get his bike into Bolivia. Toby was told about this at least twice so is aware.
Additionally: I wasn't offered a choice of tyres. X was offered a choice of tyres, but when he arrived different ones were fitted. ATBMA didn't provide any help for crossing the border beyond saying "try again". This gets tiresome after being turned away 3 times I wasn't ready to go in 0.5 hours I wasn't sent the registry document proving the bike is in my name At least one of Toby's other customers arrived to a rusty chain. I think this was swapped though. Yes I'm being anal here, but my point in all of this is that Toby didn't deliver what he said he would. |
I've met all 3 people involved in this thread: Toby, Jaime and the OP (whose real name is? Hiding behind aliases doesn't give me a good impression)
Toby: Has helped me with routing advice, hospitality and urgent parts that he took off one of his personal bikes so my trip wasn't negatively affected. Jaime and all the guys at Macedo Racing: Did excellent work including opening the motor on my bike and allowed me to use their tools and workshop for a few bits and pieces that I did myself. Ran errands for me too. All for a nominal US$6/hr (or free). Super people! The OP: Met him and his partner at a hostel in Cusco: IMHO, a very cocksure attitude and poo-pooed my first hand information regarding possible border issues entering Bolivia (that actually transpired...) I had passed through both Desaguadero and Lago Titicaca several times during the previous month. After my initial interaction with the OP I chose not to have anything further to do with him for the next day or so that we spent in the same hostel. |
"We DO NOT process your border crossings for you. We provide you with the documentation proving that the motorcycle is in YOUR name (via name transfer or PODER) which IS a requirement to take the moto OUT of Peru."
To be honest Toby you owe me an apology just for backtracking so hard on your" it's so illegal to ride a bike on a poder that the aduana is going to take it off you " nonsense. You do owe the guy a refund for lost time and bus ticket money. You scream to the heavens on these forums that the legit way to buy a bike in south America and have squeeky clean paperwork is to buy it through you, then it turns out that's not the case. Your buy back bikes might not make you much but the original price you sell them for would have, Chinese bikes for nearly $3k usd? As I've said before and I'll say again, because of some of YOUR comments specifically on this forum I nearly gave up on my trip, thinking the only way I could do it was to buy a bike from you (which I couldn't afford) and then return it to Peru to sell to you (which wasn't my intended route). |
Chris - In hostel Estrella you strongly hinted at avoiding the aduana altogether to cross into Bolivia, which seemed unwise. This is why I didn't pursue your advice further, which may have come across as cocksure to you. Just double checked and you also had bad words to say about the OP in the other "dare to question Toby" thread.
My real name is Charlie, some mates shorten this to Chaz, the Wozzer is just added to make a stupid reference to one of my fave Simpsons episodes. |
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I heard of your paperwork situation at hostal Estrellita (note correct name). I foresaw the problems that actually transpired. I observed that one option would be to just drive through the border at Desaguadero without stopping anywhere. While being highly illegal, it would have meant not ending up in the situation you did. The bloke in the other thread you refer to was talking unadulterated bollox, so I said so. Sorry. I used to contribute a lot on the hubb. Now I don't bother much, because most people know everything better themselves. |
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Tobi you advertise you business as a North American to target your customers, and they expect you doing business the American way, making sure the customer will want to come back or tell a friend there is no better place to buy a motorcycle or have the best service. Buying a motorcycle from you should never be each rider his own adventure. |
I was also a customer of Toby. My overall experience with the company is rather mixed.
- I bought a Honda XRE300 for around 6300$ (you can buy it for 5300$ at a Honda dealer in Lima) from him early 2018 - Arriving in Huanuco the bike was ready and we met the local Peruvian mechanics. They were super nice and even invited my friend and me for having dinner with them. A really great experience. However, Toby was not there, he was in the US. This was a bit weird for us, since he never mentioned it to me. Our Spanish was not so good and we were expecting to have him around. The paper process was super smooth. There were minor problems on the bikes. My USB charger didn't work, my friends' tire was mounted the wrong way around. Minor things, but you need to check things by yourself and don't just fully trust. - I went for the trip, the bike was very good, Honda quality. The custom paniers broke after 15k. - For me, the buying back deal was the main reason to use his service and to pay a bit more in the first place. After 6 months, in August 2018, I brought the bike back. Everything was fine. Toby wasn't there again though. - The problem was that Toby never could sell the bike. He wanted to sell it for 5868$ (I would have got back 4500$) which hardly makes sense given that you can buy one for 5300$ new. I asked him to lower the price. The problem is that there are multiple other XREs in the selling queue before me which no one wants to buy and he wanted to sell mine to the reduced price only after selling the others before. So I was basically trapped. He proposed to rent the bike for some weeks and we split the income 50/50. That was nice. - I came back to Peru in June 2019, went to Huanuco and recuperated the bike to sell it by myself in Lima. That was the first time I met Toby. We did my part of the paperwork and I went to Lima. - I used the bike again for 2 months and then before leaving Peru I found a buyer to sell the bike. During the selling process, we realized that the bike was not transferred to my name at all. Apparently, the guy who should have done this for Toby went on holiday and forgot to do the process properly. - In consequence, I couldn't finish selling the bike as planned before my return flight and the buyer wasn't interested anymore. - Toby organized a poder for my Peruvian girlfriend to sell the bike in his name. In the end, it worked out, but it involved quite a lot of administrative effort and quite some miscommunication in terms of how fast things are going to be. - In all this process I had the impression that the communication of Toby was very much on the arrogant side of the spectrum. So for me, the entire buyback deal turned out to be useless. I would have been much better of in just walking into a Honda store and buy a bike and then sell it by myself. Having said all those things, I think Toby is generally a good guy, but the entire business idea of the buying back model didn't work at all for me. |
I think it is proper that I reply..
First know that ahee and I have been conversing. Ahee, I appreciate your kind words and also you truthfulness and viewpoint. Sorry, not all things about the experience met your expectations, but I'd like to address each item: 1) Our prices. Yes, there is a 'Value-Added'. There is the cost (and risk) of transferring the funds to to Peru do this service for you. We order the moto from the dealer to make sure it's point of registry is Huanuco, thus applying the tax-free zone status (18% less) and the simplicity of the paperwork (faster and 50% cost than in Lima) and the cost of insurance (71% cheaper than if moto is registered in Lima). We fully tear the bike down and put it back together as we believe is necessary for a successful trip. No veteran would start on a 3-6 month trip without doing this, even to a NEW motorcycle. HONDA QUALITY is not what it used to be unless you are buying a 650cc+ bike made in Japan. The Honda 150cc and lower are made in China. The 200cc-300cc are made in other places like Tailand and Brazil. We have found virtually NO grease in the steering and rear suspension of the XRE300 and the CRF250L (Yamaha XTZ250 TENERE too!). We find spokes not right and wheels not true. The engines are gutless from the factory with no mid-range due to cat conv. and muffler baffles. We fully cut open the exhausts and rebuild them into glass-paks increasing the HP a bit (especially at altitude) and HUGE change to the mid-range where you will be mostly needing it in the Andes riding with luggage (or a passenger!). We build it back up with LockTite and diaelectric grease (especially thinking of you who insist on riding on the Salares of Bolivia). The Honda dealership insists on the wrong oil for engine break-in. We use MOTUL 3000 and do the break-in ourselves so that you, upon your arrival can immediately load it and go. We replace the break-in oil with full synthetic and new oil filter. We chase the owners card, then the license plate, then the 1 year SOAT insurance (also included in the price). We install strong aluminum bark-buster handguards because we KNOW there will be falls and brushes in traffic. We build and equip the bikes with custom rear top racks (these Hondas have none) and side racks triangulated to the lower part of the frame. We communicate closely with your needs and desires (often 80 some email exchanges), give you advice, buy your bus tickets, so you get the best seat, hostel reservations, free maps if you wish. Even included in the price is 2-hours of maintenance training by Jaime our lead tech. When you arrive we have all the paperwork ready, process your PERMISO ESPECIAL so that you can sign as a tourist, and pay for the transfer to your name. Then we follow the name change process with the Peruvian Vehicle Registry (yes, ahee... yours got away from us) and when the change is made we go stand in line to get an official copy, scan and send it to you via email while you are enjoying your ride. All that is called 'Value-Added'. Some value it, some don't. So yes, our motorcycles, ready for you just to sign a paper and ride away with everything you need are very different than you just buying from the dealer and doing it all on your own (the paperwork and license plate alone would take 3 weeks!). 2) The difference in price between the 'Buy Back' and the 'Used/Made-New'. Yes, there is a big difference in that we take it all apart, strip the frame, check for cracks, repaint the frame and put it back together with care. We replace all wheel bearings, steering bearings, brake pads, chain and sprockets, brake fluid, get the wheels re-aligned, replace new inner tubes and tires, and any other item showing undue wear or damage. We repack the exhaust, rebuild the engine, seat the engine in and make the necessary adjustments post break in. Yes, there is a difference, but it is not profit. It is just parts and labor for the shop. We even take the responsibility of selling it for you while you just sign (name transfer which is also included in the price) and catch your plane. There is not even a storage fee until it sells. Meanwhile (if you are in agreement and until it sells as a 'Used/Made New' model), we rent it for you and that is extra cash for you ASIDE from the Buy Back amount when it does sell. We even pay the cost of sending your $$ to you. 3) I travel. Yes, I go to Moto Expos in the USA, I lead tours, I have a family. I am not there when every customer arrives. I am electronically present and our staff knows what to do. For those who speak no Spanish it can be a bit stressful as the staff (at this point) has some, but limited Spanish. There is alot you are going to face by yourself traveling all over South America, and your Spanish familiarity can make or break you trip! 4) Expectations. We all read into things what we want to happen (or believe SHOULD happen). Heck! I've been happily married now for 35 years and STILL miss my wife's expectations from time to time! "How did you understand THAT from what I said?" We chat 2 hours a day even when we are apart! But we find that righteousness and blame only worsen the situation. Chaz, I'm sure that you are reading this as you originated this thread. I wanted to let you know that we now have a handle on the Peruvian customs screw-up that made you lose 6 days at the border. We now have contracted a customs official (an actual Peruvian customs desk/computer system person) to pre-research every one of our motorcycles in their data systems to make sure we head off the issue with official documentation (almost like a court case) long before the customer heads off on his ride! Chaz..., your grief is now a help to many other riders. Thanks for that gift to the Motoquero community! |
Man, after the whole "poder wars" and from what you have said before about people not having bikes in their name and possibly losing them, you let one of your customers ride through multiple countries with a bike which was NEVER in their name?
A buyback scheme (the kind that you pay FAR over retail price for a bike for, should mean that you return the bike and get the agreed amount if money back, not wait for you to sell it first. I can comment on this because I now own Ahee's bike. The "permiso para firmar contratos" took me ten minutes, 16 soles. And the cost to transfer was 270 soles (less than 100 usd). Because of errors you've made and the queer way that your "buyback" works ahee has lost a lot of money, are you offering any compensation? Have you offered any compensation to chaz for his 6 lost days of travel? Long story short you're charging a lot for your services, back them up when they don't match up to expectations. |
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Yes, the screw-up was with the notary we used. Ahee wasn't trying to leave the country, just use the moto within Peru for a while, then sell it himself. When he went to sell it we found out the issue, so we (that very day) did a Poder (and paid for it) and paid for the registry of it with the SUNARP, for his girlfriend to sell for him (yes it took another week for the Peruvian Registry to approve the Poder, but we cannot influence the regular speed of government). But for this reason that the issue was on our end, we agreed to pay all the expenses of his Compra-Venta to you. As far as prices and how long it takes to re-sell a moto, Ahee, and every other customer signs a 4-page contract that explains every detail about how our "scheme" works and gives the full reason for our prices, both Purchase and Buy Back. Everything is disclosed and understood before any $$ is exchanged. No promise is made to how quickly a moto will sell. Ahee even received extra cash from the rental of his motorcycle while it was waiting for it to sell and he would have STILL received the full amount when it sold if he had left it with us. In Chaz's case, the error was with Peruvian customs, technically not our responsibility. That information is not even available to the public, but nevertheless, because of what Chaz went through, we have found (and pay for) a back-door with customs to pre-research if Peruvian customs (or a prior owner of the moto) did something wrong. And we pay for lawyer representation to correct it before there is a border issue. What is your beef we us? What have we done to you? If you don't value our services, don't use us! That's your right. But this being 2 cases (tho very important to them) out of more than 200 customers, your venom seems a bit misplaced. |
What's important to you?
Having rented bikes in a number of countries, I can tell you I'm happy to pay to keep companies going who take care of their customers when things go wrong, very wrong (and I'm not talking about border crossing hassles, or flat tires here) and who make every effort to correct mistakes- even the mistakes of others. I've recently put Toby's company high on my list of companies I'll go back to again. I rented a Honda 300 from Toby last Spring. I arrived in Lima, spent a couple of days in town and then boarded an overnight bus with a nice cushy seat to sleep in that Toby had ordered up for me. This was a great service, and made getting out of Lima pretty easy for me. On the way to Huanuco, the bus was delayed for 6 hours by ' una Huelga', a miner's strike turning it into a 15 hour ride. Buses and trucks lined up for miles on a 4500 m pass, going nowhere.... https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0909.jpg Toby generously adjusted my rental start to accommodate my lost day, though obviously it was not his fault and we had a prior agreement. The Honda was set up exactly as I had requested with hard bags and was in great shape with a fresh chain and new tires. I was instructed in how to check the oil, issued a bit of extra oil, chain lube, inner tubes, tools, etc. I chatted with Toby for an hour or two about possible routes and then rode off. https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0925.jpg My ride was starting out fantastic.... https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0940.jpg https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSCN0929.jpg Then I had the misfortune of breaking my leg. https://i831.photobucket.com/albums/...rdwrXray_1.jpg I spent a few days lying around in my hostal, after being misdiagnosed in the local emergency room. When I finally decided that I wasn't going to be walking soon, much less riding, I contacted my wife who got in touch with Toby and he got into action. He stayed in touch with me and my wife constantly, keeping us abreast of the arrangements he was making on my behalf. He arranged for the bike to be transported back to Huanuco by a couple of the guys working in his associated shop. They also got me a long distance taxi, and rode along with me, taking care of all the travel details that I would have had trouble accomplishing: like arranging overnight lodging, a trip to another hospital, meals, banking, and hauling my luggage around. I'm not a person who usually needs someone making reservations and guiding me, but things look a lot different when you're hurt and on crutches. Meanwhile, Toby was arranging a berth on a long distance overnight bus back to Lima, a driver to get me from the bus station to a hotel in Lima. He booked me a hotel room and a driver who would get me to the airport and help me with my baggage. I had left a bag behind at Toby's shop in Huanuco and he arranged for that to be waiting at my hotel in Lima when I arrived. This was all done while he himself was preparing for a trip that same day to the US to watch his daughter graduate from school. I'm healing up well, still limping but just got back on my bike a few weeks ago here in Colorado. I'm thinking about my future riding motorcycles in other countries. I think I probably will- my left leg needs to be a lot stronger, though, and I may be finished with solo travel. Peru is a place I'd like to return to- to finish my trip. The touring was great and the back-up I got from Toby when I was alone, hurt, and in need of a friend: just incredible. I recommend him highly, and hope his business thrives. He deserves it. .................shu |
After reading this thread I feel like there are some major things being left out. When you buy a bike from Toby in Peru you have the added comfort of doing business with a North American. How many of the guys criticizing Toby have done multi thousand dollar deals with Latin Americans? If you think your minor problems dealing with Toby's business are anything to whine about, wait until you do a big deal with a Latin American!
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Doing big business deals in Latin America is a pain in the butt for sure. I sold my motorcycle in Paraguay in 2008 and it was nightmare to finally get the deal done. I had to waste a month of my trip waiting for the deal to go through. I used Asuncion Motors and had a German friend helping me with every step of the way and it still took a month to get done. (I didn't get the money before I left and had to wait 2-3 more months for my German friend to send the money!). The greatest asset I see about Tony's offer is he takes that time quagmire off your hands. When you are done with your trip you can turn in your motorcycle to Toby and he will either sell it for you, or store it for free and you can return home on your schedule. You have to give him a reasonable amount of time to sell your bike. I think 1 year is reasonable. You can't expect Toby's shop to be perfect. The fasteners and bolts that they use may not be factory OEM, but you have to realize where you are. You are not in the USA, Europe anymore. Replacement parts are very expensive in Latin America. Toby is doing his best to train his staff to North American/ European standards and at the same time he has to run a business and make enough to get by. The one suggestion I would make to Toby is if you have an order of when you sell the same model of bikes, than I would get rid of that. If an owner wants to price their bike lower so that it sells faster, than he should be able to sell his bike first. As a former motorcycle business owner I can relate pretty well to Toby. In the E-age of doing business it doesn't matter how many of hundreds of times you go out of your way to help individual customers, the feedback you get back is still going to be that 1% of whiners. You had to buy a bottle of loctite? Yes, that is an inconvenience, but this guy goes out of his way to have his mechanics build custom pannier racks for you and you have the nerve to whine about that too! Like Tony mentioned with the 50-80 emails, there is no way that he is making more than $5 an hour with the time that he is putting into this. We have seen Shu's post now. We have an idea of the kind of "support" that Tony offers his own customer's and probably any advrider in the area. I would rather spend an extra few dollars at Tony's shop than try and go bargain hunting in Latin America. No one has mentioned the Darien Gap yet. If you buy your bike in South America you do not have to cross the Darien Gap which is a $1500 expense. Central America is a nightmare to have to cross. |
Toby - re the buy back thing. You've got more motorcycles now than every before right? So the selling queues are presumably longer than ever before? And there's always going to be some buyers who will only buy new, unless you manage to find an ever increasing number of people to buy the bikes, but obviously that is unsustainable. Doesn't this mean the wait times to sell bikes will get forever longer, turning from months to years?
(Also, that's good to hear about borders. I just crossed into Ecuador and that went smoothly) Above poster - the reason for my "whining" is because the only stuff i could find on the net before buying the bike was glowing praise (excluding that one thread from a few years back where the guy got slated). I don't think he lived up to those expectations. And, to restate what i originally said about the racks (drive you brought it up...); he asked for "dimensions of the bags", then built the rack to those dimensions without "mocking something up". If he had asked for dimensions for the racks, or had mocked anything up, it could have been done correctly. Its not like they were building the racks out of the kindness of their hearts, i had to pay for them. Of the 50-80 emails, most came after leaving Huanuco due to the numerous issues that came up (title not transferred, stuck at the border, stuck at the border again for different reason, all the little problems). Finally, again as i said in the first post, I'm commenting on his purchase/buy back thing, not the rental/tour side that shu's describing. |
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I cannot comment on the necessity of fully tearing down the bike, since I'm not a mechanic. What I know is that the bike was running very well, and I'm very thankful for this. On my Honda CRF 250 Rally (produced in Thailand) I didn't do anything and I don't have problems either though. Regarding the exhaust, have you done some systematic tests on the improved output? I was travelling with a friend who had a stock XRE 300 in all kind of altitudes and the performance of the two bikes felt exactly the same to me. Regarding the 2-hours maintenance training by Jaime our lead tech. It's the first time I'm hearing of this. I definitely haven't had it. My friend who bought a brand new Honda in Lima had all the paperwork done in 1 week, but maybe he was just lucky. 2) I believe you very much that this is tons of work. My problem for this is that in my case only very few people want to buy a used XRE300, so the buying back deal wasn't of any use to me. 3) That's totally fine, but it was just a surprise to me, since I did business with you and you were not there. 4) I agree very much. But I think it's now also your turn to carefully analyse the critical inputs of customers and make sure that the expectations are met better for future clients. E.g. explaining them very well how difficult it is for you to sell a XRE300. I would like to wrap up this by saying again that I appreciated all the work and time you put into this. I had a great time with your bike. But at the same time, I think it is important that you look at your services and reevaluate what actually brings added value. The preps and the paperwork could be, but I guess the buying backpack for the XRE not. For people having some patience, I would recommend to go to a Honda dealer and buy it from there. |
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I also saw this as the biggest asset of Toby services. But having seen that after 10 months the queue of XRE to sell in front of me hasn't been much smaller than 10 months before, didn't give me the impression that he ever will sell the bike. A bike also loses value over time. With this, I'm out here. |
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Honestly guys stop your bashing about the past if it is that is all what you have to say. Posting here is for a better future, and Tobi made some moves in that direction.
I have lived or traveled to latin america over 40 years, bought dozens of vehicles, motorcycles or cars, and I can tell you his business is not the worst, and certainly didn't intend to screw his customers. On your next adventure buy from one of his competitors for the best deal, but it could turn out to be a big nightmare and I don't talk about mistakes. |
Your post was spot on
I too had a disaster with Toby. ARTB boasts about all the mechanical work they do to get the bike ready. The bike they provided me was well past its usable age and broke down many times from the cheap parts and terrible mechanical work. In fact it didnt even make the first mile. The cheap Chinese ignition broke down just a few blocks from his shop. The ultimate failure was an oil pump that BTW ATRB mechanic was working on when I go there. He actually tried to seal it up with silicon! It turned out that the owner of ARTB had spent my deposit and even though he agreed in writing to give it back when I returned the bike he pulled a fast one and burned me for 2700 USD. Yes I know people have good experiences but I can tell you from experience their work is shoddy and they cannot be trusted to do what they say. You will find out exactly what they are like as soon as a major problem occurs. I recommend doing your homework and checking out all options.
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