|
Selling US registered bike in Argentina/Chile?
Hi I am travelling down to Argentina/Chile on a US registered KLR650 and was hoping to sell it in Argentina or Chile before returning home. I am a bit alarmed by what I have been reading about buying a bike in Argentina but does this only applyto Argentinian registred bikes?
How easy will it be to sell my bike down there? What is the precedure for transfereing the tittle if it's US registered? In the Central American countries there is such a high import tax you couldn't even give the bike away what about Argentina/Chile? Thanks in advance Baz |
Selling US registered bike in Argentina
Bazmataz, great question?
You might be able to sell your US registered bike in Argentina, but to do it legally it will be as costly and as difficult, or much more difficult, than doing it in Central America. I do not recommend trying to sell a foreign registered bike in Argentina. If a foreign tourist purchases an Argentine registered bike in Argentina, the current law might be interpreted as making it illegal for the foreign tourist owner to leave Argentina with his/her Argentine registered bike. Entering Argentina with a foreign registered bike is not problem, you have up to 8 months (if requested at border upon entering) for your *bike to be in Argentina legally, before having to exit. Upon exit you can reenter Argentina a ask for an additional 8 months in country. For a new buyer to exit Argentina with a foreign registered bike might be very problematic. *Don't forget, a tourist visa is issued for 3 months only, so you will need to extend your tourist visa if staying longer than 3 months. Keep us posted ... especially if you discover where to sell as foreign registered bike in South America? xfiltrate |
sell it to another traveller
lots of guys are flying into buenos aires looking for a bike ,either do the title transfer from the usa (harder) or get creative with a scanner and color copier eg scan it in change the name, copy it in colour and you have a title in there name this will keep any border guy more than happy ,then while they are riding north back to the states the real title transfer can take place well before they reach mexico,get it shipped to a DHL office in mexico and all's sweet for when they hit the border try selling on here or flea market in advrider
|
Foreign Tourist selling to a Foreign Tourist in Argentina
Thecanoeguy, there are foreign Tourists in Argentina who would like to purchase used motorcycles. This is true, but I have a couple questions regarding your plan that might enable one foreign tourist to sell a bike to another foreign tourist in Argentina, and then the foreign tourist (buyer) would be able to exit Argentina and ride to Mexico and the States.
Your answers are greatly appreciated, I do not recommend falsifying any official documents and please answer the following questions. OK, I understand that you recommend falsifying the Title of the Foreign registered motorcycle by copying the name of the foreign tourist (buyer) onto the title after removing the foreign tourists (seller) name. 1. How do you falsify the Temporary Import Permit for the motorcycle. The foreign tourist seller's name is on this important document and it must be presented upon exiting Argentina. Not only is the owners name on the document, but there is also an identification number on the Temporary Import Permit... and this is checked by computer at almost all borders...and by the police at check points..... The name and the number must match, or the bike will be impounded. What do you recommend? 2. If the bike is registered in the USA, the majority of States, all but 3 or 4 demand the seller and the buyer be physically present at a motor vehicles dept in the State and both must provide legal identification for the title transfer to take place. What do you recommend? 3. If the motorcycle enters Mexico in the name of the buyer, with the falsified title, the bike will have to exit Mexico and be stamped out in the buyers name, obviously, the bike cannot enter the States with a false title as a computer check at the border will alert border officials to the *scam. *even if a legal transfer is effected in the states or another country... and the new legal title is DHL to the buyer in Mexico, the title number will be different from the falsified title and the buyer, exiting Mexico on the falsified title, might have big, big problems entering the States on a title with a different title number. Please advise. thanks xfiltrate IMPORTANT DATA EDITED NOTE: I knew I was forgetting one more question. I assume the foreign tourist buyer will purchase insurance by presenting the falsified title with his/her name on it? This would enable the foreign tourist buyer to have an insurance card to present to police, if asked. But, if an accident occurred or there was bodily injury caused by the foreign tourist buyer, the title would be checked/verified very carefully by attorneys working for the insurance company and possibly by attorneys working for the injured party. Once it was discovered that the title had been falsified, and a check of the vin # of the bike revealed that the bike was still owned by the foreign tourist (seller), then any liability caused by the foreign tourist (buyer) would also fall on the foreign tourist (seller). And, the foreign tourist (seller) insurance might have expired or been cancelled. THE BOTTOM LINE IS, ONCE THE INSURANCE COMPANY DISCOVERS THE TITLE HAD BEEN FALSIFIED, THE INSURANCE IS INVALID AND THEREFORE, THE FOREIGN TOURIST (BUYER) WILL BE RIDING AT GREAT RISK WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REAL/ VALID INSURANCE COVERAGE. 4. Please advise how to handle the insurance problem? If anyone needs to be convinced that insurance is an absolute necessity while riding in Mexico Central or South America, please read my post POST TO LUNAPIX COPIED BELOW: "Hi Lunapix, it is true you might not be asked to prove you have insurance unless you have an accident. But, I have lived in Mexico for 3 years and as recently as a couple years ago rode through Mexico. Sit down, my boy, and let me explain the facts of life. If you are involved in an accident with substantial property damage or any injury that requires hospitalization, here are some facts to consider. The Mexican police, on the streets, are not trained or allowed to determine fault. They generally arrest everyone involved in a serious accident, who does not have insurance. This is done to prevent anyone escaping responsibility for the accident. If you have insurance, the police will verify that insurance with the insurance company, and unless the accident involves, significant property damage, a death or possibility of death, you probably will not be detained. If you are arrested, for not having insurance, or because the accident is very serious, you might be in a Mexican jail for weeks, even months, waiting for your turn to go before a judge, who is qualified to determine fault in the accident. Without insurance, you stay in jail until the judge sorts out who was at fault. If you have insurance, your insurance agent may be able to have you released from jail, while you wait your turn before the judge. I have known of foreign tourists being held for 6 months before their involvement in an accident could be sorted out by a judge. Please consider these facts, before deciding to buy or not to buy insurance before entering Mexico." Ride Free, Eat, Drink and Be Careful and buy insurance damit. xfiltrate |
well i guess i live on the edge
no one has ever checked my title on bike entering america as a tourist ,you dont have to be present to change a title you can do it by post ,when you leave mexico just use the fake one if your worried it must have worked to get you in maybe buenos argentina might be different ,i have done plenty of dodgy things at borders and got away with if but if you are a rule boy just send the title off and wait for the new one to be sent ,there are plenty have bought usa bikes on here and got out of argentina mnot saying this is the right way but it is a way
|
Xfiltrate, I'm not qualified (not yet, anyway) to comment on what it's like to use real or false documents in Argentina. However I do cross borders into and out of the USA quite a bit, with rented, borrowed and personally-owned vehicles of various descriptions--been doing it since I was a little boy riding on the rear shelf of my parents' '56 Plymouth--and I've never had anyone check my title or registration while doing so. They're immigration cops--and not very good at it, if you come right down to it. They're not looking for stolen goods being smuggled into the States! If you approach the border full of adrenaline and sweating heavily they might suspect you of carrying drugs, in which case they'll make a cursory search and have a dog sniff around. (The exception here would be if you've got brown skin and black hair, look vaguely arabic, carry a south Asian passport, or in any other way arouse their rather limitless paranoia....in which case I'd suggest making sure that all documents are genuine and all numbers match).
I've also bought and sold at least a couple of dozen new and used vehicles, including bikes, in at least a half-dozen states. I've never needed to have the seller present on any occasion. That's never. Ever. The dissonance between your claims and my direct experience makes me wonder how seriously to take the rest of what you say. That doesn't mean I think you're necessarily wrong, but it does somewhat beg for clarification. Safe journeys! Mark |
Clarification needed here! I agree!
Gentlemen, as much as I enjoy a logical discussion based on realities I am shortening my response because I do believe that falsifying official documents is not only inherently wrong, but unfair to honest hard working people who do abide by the law.
Call me a "rule boy" if you want and know that your lack of perception is not my problem. Several of my mates here in Argentina, earn their living and provide for their families by having established legal businesses that buy and sell motorcycles in Argentina. The plan of falsifying titles that you propose, enables foreign tourist sellers and foreign tourist buyers, to circumvent Argentine law created and designed to offer protection from unfair competition in the used motorcycle market. Markharf, please read more carefully my post. Perhaps your inability to confront the information I present has less to do with accuracy than the fact that it is opposed to your own ethics. Here is what I said: "3. If the motorcycle enters Mexico in the name of the buyer, with the falsified title, the bike will have to exit Mexico and be stamped out in the buyers name, obviously, the bike cannot enter the States with a false title as a computer check at the border will alert border officials to the *scam." You may be correct if you dash over the border and obtain a Sinaloa Only multiple entry temporary vehicle permit and that your title is not checked upon exiting Mexico nor checked upon entering the United States. But, if you need a temporary vehicle import permit that allows you to travel the length of Mexico, and you want the $250.00 dollars (depends on value of motorcycle) refunded to the credit card you used to purchase this temporary vehicle import permit, the Mexican officials will notice that the bike entered Mexico with a different name on the title and would not be permitted to leave Mexico and thus could not enter the States. And, the majority of Mexico/US border crossing now have cameras that capture the plate numbers on all entering vehicles and this information is fed into a computer. When you are asked for your passport at the US border and a border official were to check the foreign tourist (buyers) name falsely listed on the title with the foreign tourist (sellers) name on the actual title, there would be a problem. Not that this is done regularly, but this possibility does present a risky situation. Your "no sweat" attitude speaks directly to your lack of ethical considerations. Your characterization of the border officials and your statement that they are racially profiling travelers is a generalization that may of may not be the experience of others who have ridden a motorcycle from Argentina to the States, Especially, if it is a British or Kiwi, or Japanese riding a motorcycle with plates issued in Kansas. And, you are incorrect, and misleading others....many States not only require that the license plate of the motorcycle be turned in and a new one is issued each time the title is transferred but, like Arizona the majority of States require that the seller and buyer be physically present for a title transfer. Or, that signatures be witnessed and validated by a "Notary Public" certified in the State that has issued the title... Please check your data before posting... And,...several states require an "inspection" of the motorcycle and proof that the buyer has insurance in the State,before any title transfer can take place... So please check title transfer requirement State by State before claiming that you do not "take what I post seriously." Please do your research. If you want, you can find the title transfer regulations by visiting the web sites of each States motor vehicle departments. I have been there and done that. Have you? You may have missed reading my EDIT: EDITED NOTE: I knew I was forgetting one more question. I assume the foreign tourist buyer will purchase insurance by presenting the falsified title with his/her name on it? This would enable the foreign tourist buyer to have an insurance card to present to police, if asked. But, if an accident occurred or there was bodily injury caused by the foreign tourist buyer, the title would be checked/verified very carefully by attorneys working for the insurance company and possibly by attorneys working for the injured party. Once it was discovered that the title had been falsified, and a check of the vin # of the bike revealed that the bike was still owned by the foreign tourist (seller), then any liability caused by the foreign tourist (buyer) would also fall on the foreign tourist (seller). And, the foreign tourist (seller) insurance might have expired or been cancelled. THE BOTTOM LINE IS, ONCE THE INSURANCE COMPANY DISCOVERS THE TITLE HAD BEEN FALSIFIED, THE INSURANCE IS INVALID AND THEREFORE, THE FOREIGN TOURIST (BUYER) WILL BE RIDING AT GREAT RISK WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REAL/ VALID INSURANCE COVERAGE. 4. Please advise how to handle the insurance problem? If anyone needs to be convinced that insurance is an absolute necessity while riding in Mexico Central or South America, please read my post POST TO LUNAPIX COPIED BELOW: "Hi Lunapix, it is true you might not be asked to prove you have insurance unless you have an accident. But, I have lived in Mexico for 3 years and as recently as a couple years ago rode through Mexico. Sit down, my boy, and let me explain the facts of life. If you are involved in an accident with substantial property damage or any injury that requires hospitalization, here are some facts to consider. The Mexican police, on the streets, are not trained or allowed to determine fault. They generally arrest everyone involved in a serious accident, who does not have insurance. This is done to prevent anyone escaping responsibility for the accident. If you have insurance, the police will verify that insurance with the insurance company, and unless the accident involves, significant property damage, a death or possibility of death, you probably will not be detained. If you are arrested, for not having insurance, or because the accident is very serious, you might be in a Mexican jail for weeks, even months, waiting for your turn to go before a judge, who is qualified to determine fault in the accident. Without insurance, you stay in jail until the judge sorts out who was at fault. If you have insurance, your insurance agent may be able to have you released from jail, while you wait your turn before the judge. I have known of foreign tourists being held for 6 months before their involvement in an accident could be sorted out by a judge. Please consider these facts, before deciding to buy or not to buy insurance before entering Mexico." [B]Markharf, and others who have posted here, I am looking forward to your suggestions regarding the above risks and how to handle the insurance question. Thanks [/B] xfiltrate Ride Free, Eat, Drink and Be Careful and buy insurance damit. |
Sorry, but I'm reporting my direct experience. I can't possibly describe yours. The fact that they appear to contradict each other in certain respects makes me wonder.
It now sounds like your objections might be less practical and more ethical, which is fine. I wasn't addressing that set of issues (i.e., the morality of bending or breaking laws) because I had not noticed you or the original poster doing so. If that's what you want, fine....but you may wish to leave out all the other stuff for the sake of clarity. That's just a suggestion in case you're interested in getting your point across. I can't really make out what your objections might be to my characterizations of Homeland Security personnel or to my descriptions of all the vehicles I've bought and sold or all the borders I've crossed. I do note that you seem to have formed definitive opinions about my moral sense, which is certainly your privilege. Safe journeys! Mark |
Yes, I agree
Markharf, thank you for your sincere and well concieved reply. It was properly understood. I do owe you an apology if you interpreted my remarks as being characteristic of your general sense of ethics. I was speaking only to that aspect of your ethics as characterized by your posts here.
It's a tough world, and we are all just trying to survive. I had an export business based in Mexico for three years. I exported hand made chairs and tables for restaurant chains in the States, stone fountains and tiles. Sometimes, unethical companies would out bid me, because they fabricated export documents, allowing them to pay less or no import tax, and perhaps my own ethics lost me substantial income, only because I always abided by regulations. I applaud your obvious skill at earning money by trafficking motos and vehicles. Yes, we are different, but our differences are only represented in this small example. I am sure we are more alike than different. I hope we meet one day and discover more common ground. Still, I would like to know how you handle the insurance problem and what States you refer to that do not require the seller and buyer to be present for title transfers. xfiltrate Ride Free, Eat, Drink and Be Careful |
I gotta agree with xfiltrate on this. Forging documents and riding without insurance are pretty bad ideas in my book too and very selfish in addition.
Sherlock |
The way I understand it is that any notario can write a "power of attourney" allowing the new "user" to ride and or sell the bike in all countries listed on the "POA." This will only work with another traveler, because any local would soon get stopped and would be stuck with the import taxes.
It is very common down here for someone to travel with a POA and a title in the original owner´s name. I am doing it and have had no problems. BTW, I could be completely wrong about this, but it has worked for me. |
"I applaud your obvious skill at earning money by trafficking motos and vehicles."
Well, I appreciate applause as much as anyone....but no, I'm not earning money buying or selling; I'm just living the American life, where car ownership features prominently from an early age. Nor am I buying and selling across borders, although I might take this route next year when I'm in S.A. with what will by then be an elderly 2007 KLR (probably >80,000 miles). "I am sure we are more alike than different." This is the norm everywhere, though sometimes it's difficult to admit, even to ourselves. "I would like to know....what States you refer to that do not require the seller and buyer to be present for title transfers." I can only describe my personal experience. I've bought or sold in five states--New York, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Colorado, Washington--mostly multiple times in each. I've registered cars and trucks in two more states--California and Arizona. We're talking about a span of more than thirty years, so regulations may have changed in some locations, but at any rate I've never been required to have a seller present in order to register a sale. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, which I believe involved a vaguely related topic. enjoy, Mark |
Although it was a dutch registered car, not US, the procedure of leaving Argentina is the same. I sold it to travellers. They crossed the argentinian border to Brazil and handed in the argentinian entry permit and showed the old vehicle documents(a copy) in my name. No questions asked but the plan was if they would than just tell them I lended them the car (had a nicely stamped authorisation for this case).
|
Foreign Title Transfer
Markharf, sorry for straying away. I do understand that you have "bought or sold in 5 of the United States, an I understand that you have registered vehicles in California and Arizona.
The topic here is, and I may be wrong, for I do have a propensity for staying off topic, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A UNITED STATES registered motorcycle title to be legally transferred, if the motorcycle is in Chile or Argentina and the seller is a foreign tourist and the buyer is also a foreign tourist and both seller and buyer are in Chile or Argentina. In the majority of States I researched, the "foreign" owner simply signs the back of the title or signs a specified title transfer form provided by the State where the motorcycle is registered, and here is the catch, in every State I researched....the seller's signature must be notarized by a certified notary of the State that issued the title, or be notarized by a certified notary of the State where the motorcycle is to be registered. Example: PART ONE Sam, Joe and Barbara Foreign motor tourist Sam has a beautiful BMW, purchased and paid for in Arizona, that he rode to Panama, and then had it flown to Santiago, Chile. He had planned to continue his tour of South American countries, but the collapse of the US economy precluded him having expected profits from the gradual sale of his stock portfolio and he found himself destitute, until he could get back to California and earn some money. Destitute foreign motor tourist Sam meets wealthy foreign tourist Joe at an Ex Pat bar in Santiago. Sam, over a few beers explains his troubles to his new friend Joe. Joe considers the matter and says "Sam, why don't you sell your BMW to me?" Not wealthy by luck nor family fortune, but by his own intelligence and hard work, Joe begins considering the effort involved in transferring the BMW's Arizona title into his name, no, wait, he does not want an Arizona title, he wants to register the BMW in Colorado, where he lives most of the year. "Ok, let's see the title , says Joe." He notices there are no liens (loans) on the bike and that indeed on reverse of the title are instructions for title transfer. Seems simple enough, Sam just needs to sign the BMW's Arizona title on the space provided and indicate the milage on the odometer, but wait, oh no, Sam's must sign in the presence of a State certified Notary Public. Joe immediately considers the possibility of finding an Arizona certified Notary Public somewhere in Santiago, Chile, for he knows the State of Arizona will not release the Arizona title of the BMW unless Sam's signature was witnessed by a Notary Public. Just by chance, slightly tipsy, but very attractive foreign tourist Barbara, had eyed handsome Joe through the front window of the bar as he backed in and dismounted his big BMW. She also noted that the BMW sported the familiar desert brown Arizona plate, and she was from Phoenix, Arizona. Joe noticed Barbara eyeing Sam, before Joe even knew Barbara existed, and not one to miss an opportunity, even for a friend, Joe motioned the waiter to invite Barbara to his table for a drink. Barbara accepted the offer and immediately proclaimed to Joe and Sam, I am from Arizona too. Joe, said "right, and I suppose you are a certified Notary Public as well." Barbara, a little taken back said, why yes, I work for a bank in Phoenix and I have my Notary stamp right here in my purse. To the astonishment of Joe and Sam, Barbara was a certified Notary Public of the State of Arizona. The BMW is the last topic on Barbara's mind and Joe has an early business meeting, so Joe excuses himself, but not before inviting Sam and Barbara to dinner the following evening... and, now alone, Sam and Barbara begin by talking all things Arizona, then all about Joe's journey, the economy and about anything else that comes up, until the sun does come up. When alone in his hotel room, Joe says to himself, "OK, I am in Chile. I am considering buying an expensive BMW that Sam had flown in from Panama. OK, customs here will have Sam listed on the temporary vehicle import permit, I will, have a notarized Arizona title with Sam's notarized signature indicating he has sold the BMW to me, and I suppose Sam will fly back to Arizona, maybe with Barbara and get back to work." "I would like to ride the BMW immediately, but according to the temporary import permit issued by Chile, I am not authorized to ride it in Chile nor am I the owner of the BMW. What to do? What to do?" "No, Sam would have to exit the bike from Chile. Of course I (Joe) would pay the air freight, to Colorado, but no, the bike will be registered in Sam's name when Denver customs clears the BMW from the airline, Sam would have to clear customs with the bike. "This is becoming complicated! Perhaps I should reconsider my offer to buy Sam's BMW." END PART ONE PART TWO SOON Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate |
Damn Xfiltrate, I felt like I was reading an SAT question in your above post.:smile2:
I have seen the falsifying of a temporary import permit and title work in Argentina. My Australian friend sold his bike to a Polish biker this way. As long as your work is good they will never question you. I have to disagree with what Xfiltrate said above about the customs guys cross checking you by computer and finding out that it is not the same as the original. At all the crossings I made in Argentina I found that they never cross checked me in the computer. The only time they did look up my original temporary import permit was when I could not find my temporary import permit and it had to be faxed from the last place I entered Argentina in Patagonia. |
Part TWO: SAM, JOE and BARBARA
Right again Gatogato, the correct answer will be among five possible answers at the end of PART THREE of the answers. But, the multiple choice answers will not be presented until all of the questions that were posed at the beginning of this thread are answered.
Here are the original questions, found at the beginning of this thread that I am answering. "How easy will it be to sell my bike down there? What is the precedure for transfereing the tittle if it's US registered? In the Central American countries there is such a high import tax you couldn't even give the bike away what about Argentina/Chile?" PART TWO: SAM, JOE and BARBARA Joe had selected a Chilean restaurant for the previous night's dinner invitation to the two Arizonans, Sam and Barbara . Joe was personal friends with the owner of the restaurant, who was also an attorney and worked as a criminal defense lawyer in Santiago. When Joe arrived at the restaurant, Sam and Barbara were standing, helmets in hand, near the big BMW parked at the curb. Joe said, " I see you made it OK," looked at the bike and opened the restaurant door. All three were welcomed in and seated by Jose Luis, the owner of the restaurant. Sam appeared a little stressed that the subject of Joe buying the BMW did not come up during dinner and finally asked, "were you serious when you offered to buy my bike?" Without losing a beat, Joe's auto response was, "guess it depends on how much it will cost me?" Sam relaxed a little and honestly stated, the bike is equipped for touring and would sell easily in the States for $15,000 US, and here I have seen the same bike, not equipped for touring, for sale for $20,000 US. "Wow, why the big difference?" Joe knew, but asked to find out how much Sam knew about selling a US registered bike in Chile. "Has something to do with an import tax imposed on foreign bikes, before they can be registered and then sold in Chile. I think" was Sam's honest answer. "But!" Sam quickly added, "that has nothing to do with you buying my bike, because you don't intend on registering it in Chile, do you??? "No" if I buy it I plan to fly it to Colorado, that is if the price is right." "So?" "How much will she cost me?" "Ok" we don't want to do anything illegal here, right?" "Right!" They both agree. "How about $10,000 dollars, cash?" "And, you ride it to Colorado." Now, Joe was caught a bit off guard, he had not considered the possibility of riding from Chile to Colorado, and it sounded like a damn good idea. After all, his venture in Chile had been very profitable and for ten years he has wanted a real vacation.... "What a great idea. I buy your bike, then during the next 6 months I ride South and then Central America and on up to Colorado. I would love to do that. I had a Harley when I was younger." "Is it possible?" asks Joe... "Of Course!" replies Sam, I have just finished a ride from Arizona to Panama, flew the bike here to Santiago, no problems." "I had planned to continue on to Argentina and several more South American Countries, but, you know the story." "Yeah, Yeah, tough luck, OK I'll give you $8,000.00 for the bike, if Barbara will notarize your signature on the back of the Arizona title, and she will confirm that with this title, once I reach Colorado, I will be able to register the bike in Colorado in my name." Surprisingly quiet Barbara, now proclaims, "Yes Joe, with Sam's signature, and his Arizona drivers license number and US passport number as identification, I will notarize his signature, on the reverse of the Arizona title, as seller of the BMW to you." "This will, make the bike legally yours.... in Arizona, that is and you will be free to have this title transferred to a Colorado title in your name, according to the laws and regulations of Colorado." "I will also notarize your signature, on the back of the arizona title, as buyer, this is also required, so that Sam is released from any potential liability occurring in Arizona." As an after thought, and looking directly at Joe, Babara adds.... "Sam gave me a ride, to the restaurant that is, and I can also attest that his bike runs great." The following conversation goes like this.... "Wait, only $8,000.00?" I said $10,000.00." "Yes, I know but my offer is $8,000.00, take it or leave it." After a moment of silence, Joe adds, look, I am at risk here... I have no idea how I am going to buy insurance, cross borders etc. etc. This is going to be a risky adventure for me, and I am offering, in part, to help you in a time of need." "Take it or leave it." "OK, I'll take it, but you are getting a hell of a deal!" END PART TWO: SAM, JOE AND BARBARA PART THREE SOON Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate |
PART THREE SAM, JOE and BARBARA
Once Sam agreed to accept Joe's offer, they both relaxed ... and Joe began to feel the slow rush of adrenalin that mysteriously begins to course through his body and mind at the beginning of a every new business venture or a big trip, or before sex.
Barbara sensing the moment, wondered silently about the odds defying flow of events that brought the three of them together. Had she not noticed Joe and the Arizona plates on his bike as he parked in front of a bar in Santiago, Chile, this might not be happening. At the bank where she worked in Phoenix, Arizona she had often notarized vehicle title transfers and knew that she was needed. Well, anyway, a certified notary was needed, needed to identify Sam with two forms of signed picture ID, observe him sign as the seller on the back of the BMWs Arizona title, verify his signature against his signatures on the picture IDs and then affix her notary seal and signature. She knew little , and cared less about title transfers beyond notarizing the signature of the seller. Barbara's attention returned to Joe as he was explaining to Sam the location of the Santiago American Express office where at 11 the next morning, he would give Sam the $8,000 dollars and then, with Barbara as Notary, Sam could sign the back of Arizona title of the BMW as seller. Joe wanted a closer look at the BMW and needed some time to reflect upon his decision to buy, so he casually mentioned that it was late and he wanted to spend time with his good friend Jose Louis, attorney and owner of the restaurant. Once out of the restaurant Sam swung effortlessly onto the comfortable seat of the bike, and waited until Barbara had put on her helmet and carefully pinioned behind him. Only then did he don his own helmet and touch the starter button. As expected the big BMW purred to life and they were off. As he headed back to his table, and his laptop, he caught Jose Luis off guard by asking if there was WI-FI. "Amigo, you think this is some third world country?" "Absolutamente, we have WI FI" "Why?" "Well, I just want to take a look at the State of Arizona Motor Vehicles web site." "You going to Arizona?" "No, no, tomorrow I am going to buy that BMW that those two kids just rode out a here." "You are going to do WHAT!!!" "Buy the bike, buy the bike, and then ride it back to Colorado." Haven't you been telling me for years I work too hard and should take a long vacation?" "Amigo, No sé nada about the Arizona Motor Vehicle regulations but, you buy that Arizona bike in Chile and instead of a vacation you might end up in a very uncomfortable jail cell." "What?" "You are on the right track, take a look at the Arizona Department of transportation web site while I close up the restaurant and then we will talk." The following was copied from: Arizona Department of Transportation Soon after loading the ADOT web site, Joe knew he had made a very bad decision. Seller When a vehicle is sold (or otherwise transferred) you, the seller, should: Sign off the back of the title and have your signature notarized. Give the title to the buyer with any lien release, if applicable. Complete a sold notice online, or on the back of the vehicle registration. Remove and retain the license plate, instead of leaving the plate on the vehicle. The plate belongs to you, the vehicle owner not the vehicle. You can later transfer the plate to another vehicle that you register. Request a refund (see Refunds below). –or– Transfer the plate credit to another vehicle owned (see Credit For Fees below). Buyer Upon sale or transfer of a vehicle, the registration for that vehicle is no longer valid. The buyer must visit any MVD or authorized Third Party office to transfer the plate and register the vehicle. If it is necessary to drive the vehicle to complete this transaction, the buyer must obtain a Restricted Use 3-Day Permit, for private sales, or a Temporary Registration Plate, for vehicles purchased from a licensed dealer "Amigo, you learn anything from the web site?" "Yeah, looks like if I buy the bike, the license plate is not included, and the registration no longer legal until I visit the motor vehicles department and transfer the title." "What does it say about "INSURANCE?" As your friend and an attorney, I am not going to allow you to ride that bike anywhere with out insurance." "No problem José Luis, I'll buy insurance here." "Es possible," " I am sure there are more than one insurance company in Santiago, that will sell you insurance, but the minute you have an accident, damage something, or kill someone with that bike, an attorney representing the insurance company, will look at the copy of the title you submitted and immediately declare that you fraudulently purchased insurance for a bike that you do not hold title to." "You, might be able to buy insurance, but you will have no coverage." "José Luis, from what I just read.... I might have another "problema." "What license plate number will appear on the insurance card?" "Sam is required to remove the plate." "And, how will I ride from Chile to Colorado without a license plate." "You won't." "Matter of fact you won't get out of Chile on that bike." "Why not?" "Because... when your friend collected his bike from the "aduana" at the airport, he was issued what is called a Temporary Vehicle Import Permit" (TVIP) which clearly states that the "vehicle" or "motorcycle" is not to be sold in Chile, therefore TVIPs are non transferrable." "And, in order to exit Chile you must turn in the TVIP, show the title and possibly submit the bike to an inspection of the vin #, that hopefully, matches the vin # on the title." "For each border between here and Colorado you cross, you will be required to show title to obtain a TVIP and you might have to prove you have insurance, you might not, but you might." "When you cannot ride further north, you will have to ship or fly the bike to Panama and without a proper title, I doubt any reputable shipper will carry a bike, with a questionable title, as cargo." "Look Joe, you need to back out of this deal." "I am to meet those kids at American Express in the morning." I like them both, they just met and this was not a set up. This I know for sure. Perhaps I could lend Sam a couple grand, if he had the money he would ride the bike back to Arizona himself." "Joe I'll be there for you in the morning, now go get some sleep." The next morning Joe withdrew $2,000.00 dollars on his American Express card and while he waited in the vip lounge of American Express, he penned an agreement to repay $2,000.00 to be signed by Sam. When José Louis arrived he looked confident, and as was customary he handed his friend Joe a Cuban cigar. From the vip lounge both men saw Sam and Barbara arrive on the BMW. Barbara took Sam's arm as they approached the upscale building. They burst into the lounge and after Barbara kissed both men on the cheek, she proclaimed, "we have some good news." This obviously positive spin got Joe's attention. "Tell them Sam." "Gentlemen, it seems as if Barbara was temporarily laid off from the bank in Phoenix, and has unemployment insurance for six months. She, has agreed to finance our trip back to Arizona! She will lend me the money for my share of the expenses, and of course, I provide a ride home for her." "And, she was wise enough to buy a refundable airline ticket." "Wow, that's good news!" Joe winked at José Luis, and said, you know I like you kids, I am happy for you, a bit envious, but certain you will have a great ride home." "All of this is so exciting." "I like Sam, and I believe this journey, through foreign lands, is just the way to get to know him better." Can you believe, he is a customer at the bank where I work!" "This was meant to be!" "Well, you two have many kilometers to ride, be good to each other, and with that Joe began to unwrap the Cuban cigar." As the two friends watched the BMW disappear into traffic and the smoke of 2 Cuban cigars, they remembered why they liked each other. END PART THREE Multiple choice test soon. Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate |
Ok...good info here. Now it is 2016 and I need to either ship or sell my Yamaha Super Tenere. Shiping via Dakar Motors in BA is an option. Looks like selling in Iquque Chile is not really an option....has this changed? Any info apprecieated as we are approaching BA after a great 1.5 year trip from Seattle.
Carl |
xfiltrate ...you are the most knowledgeable person I have seen on the net lately regarding selling a bike in Chile. We saw bikes change hands in P Areanas but forien bike to forien owner...wasn't easy but can be done legally.
Thanks Carl |
Sale in Chile
Silverfin, please fill in the details of how to do a legal title transfer of a foreign registered bike entered into Chile on a TVIP, by a foreign owner to a foreign buyer while the bike is physically in Chile.
I am sure many reading here would greatly appreciate it. There might have been new legislation. I have established my position, but other points of view are more than welcome. Note: IMHO Chile is a member of the Mercosur trade block and all Mercosur countries agreed to universal TVIP regulations, regarding the sale of a vehicle entered on a TVIP. Enforcement is undoubtably another story. xfiltrate |
Big Problem in Argentina!
Hi HUBBs.
I have a huge problem and I really do not know what to do, so I hope someone of this forum can help. I bought a bike from another HU member in Brazil. He promised it'd be OK and I also had a mechanic look over it to verify it has no major problem. However, I am in Mendoza, Argentina now and travelling to here was a nightmare. Over 5 breakdowns cost me already a fortune, now it seems the motor has a severe problem, which I financially cannot afford repairing. In short this means that my trip needs to end now and I have to get rid of the bike. I imported it temporarily and legally into the country and I read I cannot leave without it. I could drive it to Chile as I'm close to the border, but I'm not sure if that would change anything? Driving it far to another country is no option as I don't want to break down in the desert again. Question is: is there a legal option to get rid of the bike in Argentina or Chile, so I can leave the country ( no return planned ) ? Yours desperately, Fabian |
Broken Bike
Fabian, so sorry to learn of your break downs.
Just curious, how much did you pay for the bike? You don't have to answer. What I need to know is: Who told you you cannot leave Argentina without your bike? What exactly were you told? How are you planning to exit Argentina? By Bus? By Air? By sea or some other way? How much time is left on your TVIP? FYI, I am not aware of any barrier to you leaving Argentina without your motorcycle - as long as your TVIP is still valid.... and this may or may not be verified. Is there any indication stamped into your passport that claims you entered Argentina with a motorcycle? Usually there is not. If you exit via a border/airport/port with an up to date, working computer, your TVIP might be associated with your passport #, but if your TVIP is still valid, this should not prevent you from leaving the country. Do not try to leave the country if your TVIP has expired, if it is expired, renew it before attempting to leave the country. This could be a problem. Please advise who told you you cannot leave the country without the bike? , and what did they say... I really would like to know. In what country, what state of the USA is the bike registered? If it was a foreign registered bike, entered into Brazil on a TVIP and a tourist owner sold it to you, since bikes entered into Brazil on a TVIP cannot be sold legally, the previous "Hubber"owner still owns the bike, not you. This will only be discovered if a careful title check is done - usually by an insurance company faced with a liability action. Please give me the data I request here so I might better understand your situation. And stay cool, you will be OK, this will also pass. xfiltrate |
Hey xfiltrate, thanks for responding so quickly!
I payed US$1800 for the bike, being travel-ready (including panniers etc). A friend of mine told me that leaving the bike in Argentina is not legal, if I plan to leave it here forever (btw, I'm German). I understand that if the bike overstays the TVIP, I get a fine or even worse ( like a ban :ban: from the country,...), so I don't see an option how to do this right now. I would like to leave Argentina by plane. My TVIP was issued 10 days ago, so it's valid till 07/04/2016. I don't see any indication in my passport, looks to me like the regular stamp, except the "TA" mark is checked on the transitation part (last time when entering without an own vehicle, "OT" was stamped - don't know if that means something or not. Also, there's some numbers hand-written next to it (sth like 9012105). The bike was (is?) registered in Washington, USA. The owner drove it to South America, where another and another traveller bought and sold it, till I finally bought it in Brazil. On thing I still don't understand: If I entered the country with a bike (if it's officially mine or not) and I have a TVIP with my passport, and I leave the country WITHOUT the bike for good, what happens once the TVIP is expired? Thank you! |
Broken Bike
Fabian,
OK, your friend was correct, under normal circumstances it would be illegal for the owner to have a foreign registered bike in Argentina after the TVIP has expired. and, if you are stopped by police or try to exit the bike would be confiscated and you would be fined or both. This is correct, but says nothing about your question that I thought you asked..., which was: Your quote "I read I cannot leave without it" I need to know where did you read this? Let us be very clear here, if your TVIP - were legal and you leave Argentina during the term of the TVIP, this is permitted and as long as you return to Argentina before the expiration of your TVIP you will have no problem. Dates are written differently in Europe, the USA and South America etc please tell me if your TVIP expires July 4, 2016 or April 7, 2016? Both can be written 07/04/2016. When do you plan to return to Argentina, if you do plan to return. OK, here is the reality, it is possible you entered a bike you do not own into Argentina - did the previous owner - the one who - according to the State of Washington USA owns the bike - give you written permission to ride his/her bike and to ride it out of Brazil and into Argentina? In whose name was the title of the bike when you applied for the TVIP at the border? If the bike still bears Washington plates, it is a simple matter for Argentine customs to determine the true owner of the bike by calling Department of transportation State of Washington, or ever look it up on the internet........ and if it is not you, then you illegally imported the bike into Argentina. If the Washington title for the bike is actually registered in your name, you are the owner of the bike and have a legal TVIP that you must honor. Otherwise, when found by authorities the bike will be traced to the owner listed as owner by the State of Washington, and it will be then considered a stolen bike when the name on the TVIP differers from the name of the true owner. Or, not. With great regularity things might or might not happen in Argentina. Are the numbers hand written in your passport similar to the VIN "vehicle identification" number on your bike - chassis or motor number? If they are, this means your passport is associated with you bike and your TVIP. I am not familiar with the meaning of TA or OT - you might check with an Argentine friend as to the meanings. OK do you plan on returning to Argentina? Will you return before the expiration of your TVIP? If you return after the expiration, yes a fine might be imposed if you are stopped by police, and possibly the bike confiscated but I doubt you will be prevented from entering Argentina. I am not absolutely sure. To answer you last question - If you leave Argentina for good, and do not plan on returning, any abandoned bike will be either stolen by a local and sold for parts, confiscated by the police and sold, and held until auctioned off, and that will be the end of it. I doubt you will be pursued beyond the borders of Argentina. More than likely, the expiration date of the TVIP will come and go and no action will be taken until you show up to renew your TVIP or try to leave the country with the bike or are stopped for a routine traffic check while riding the bike....- in the past, renewals of expired TVIPs - if you have a good reason for leaving the bike - leaving for medical care etc, are around $600.00 US dollars. It could be much more as this was true about 5 years ago. I would suggest going to the authorities, but due to the possibility that you are not the legal owner of the bike - this might not be advisable. I do not know the procedure of Washington State for transfer of title, if you have to be a resident of Washington State or not, I think you do.... but anyway the Hubber you bought the bike from was probably not the legal owner of the bike either. I do not know until you give me the info requested here. I hope I am answering your questions. Be as specific as possible. xfiltrate |
Thanks again for all your effort and time.
Maybe I did not make my point clear: I would like to legally get rid of the bike in Argentina, so I can leave the country without the bike and without worrying about the TVIP to expire. The TVIP is valid till 7th of April, 2016. I do not plan to return to Argentina at all, however, I don't want to lock myself out. What legal options do I have ? Sell it? Report it stolen? Leave it at the border? And if I return to ARG by plane (without bike) though the TVIP expired, will this be a problem? |
Quote:
It is my opinion that Xfiltrate makes a business out of scaring travellers by brandishing the ominous spectre of laws nobody else seem to know or be concerned with. We are glad to not have paid any attention to his scaremongering. |
broken bike
R3dFox, keep me posted.
wolfandzebra, I will not dignify your comments unless you cite an example of anything I have stated here or in any other HUBB post that is not clearly stated in Argentine/Mercosur law. I will be more than pleased to provide documentation. W&Z What do you mean your bikes were "picked up" by others, maybe a little more detail would be helpful to R3dFox. If you sold them to other foreigners after entering them into Argentina on TVIPs, that would have been illegal by Argentine TVIP regulations. Scary or not, it is the law. If abiding by the law is scary, imagine how scary it is to be riding a bike in South America without proper title and thus not having valid insurance. Out of respect to the moderators, I will not be continuing posting on this thread unless asked to provide specific law documenting what I have previously stated. Scary or not! xfiltrate |
Quote:
XFiltrate is perhaps a tad overcautious and that is a trait that is just a result of someone applying basic duty of care when giving advice. Especially on an open forum like this where it is impossible to gauge just how sensible or savvy a poster is, it is normal for advice to be given so as to "do no harm". Your "advice" - which was really not advice at all, merely an outcome, is not "do no harm" If you follow his advice, you will not get into problems. If you choose to ignore his advice, you may run into problems or may not depending on how you go about it. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:21. |