Travelling with "Protection"
 

Hey Everyone,
Im looking for some advice. Im planning a trip through South America alone, and maybe its only because Im an American, but Im wondering if I should bring my gun. Ive heard plenty of stories about robbings and even worse kidnappings so Im just wondering if anyone has any information or advice on this subject.

The only protection you should bring are condoms. Leave the gun at home.

No!
 

Don't even think about it!

Depending on several factors, the unlawful possession of a concealable firearm is either a misdemeanor or felony in the US. The unlawful possession of a prohibited weapon is a felony - state prison bro!

In Mexico and other countries it might as well be a life sentence, with no parole, no appeal, throw away the key, etc.

Don't even think about. Go on your trip, enjoy yourself and the people you meet.

please please please don't do that man!

The question has been asked many times and I promise you that the response has always been: NO!

Bringing a gun not only endangers yourself, it also endangers all the travellers coming after you since robbers might start shooting first and asking qustions later.
If you get robbed and pull your gun and start shooting you will be in trouble to up over your head.
Guns are illigal down here in CA and SA and the police will not look kindly on you.

I think that most of South America is safer than many parts of the states and personally I have had no problems whatsoever.

People who get robbed down here are either incredibly unlucky og really dumb. Walking alone at night in big cities is a classic and that is dangerous all over the world. Actually I think that many places in London or Paris are far more dangerous at night than places down here...

It is a fair question, but you will probably be scolded for it because most travellers here are very much against the idea. With good reason I would add.

You can get a neat little 32 caliber derringer that is smaller than a pack of smokes for about $60. Hide it really well, and leave the scene as soon as you pop a cap in somebody's ass. Don't listen to these Europeans and pacifists.

Nobody messes with the USA!!!

I hope you are joking Max, otherwise I am quite lost for words...

I think Ted Simon covered this off best - he says that carrying a weapon of any kind is just an invitation to have to use it.

To my mind pulling a weapon is a sure way to escalate the situation rather than calm it and get out of it alive, or without having had to injure or kill someone else - in very few situations will you pulling your weapon cause the people on the other side to run away.

More often than not the best way to deal with the most dangerous of situations is to smile, take off your sun glasses and engage.

I know us Europeans are so much more soft and squiggy than our American cousins.... but I think it's a point of view that exports itself around the world rather better than a gun-ho approach.

Max,
WhTF have you been travelling that you feel you've needed a gun?!?!

Your rhethoric sounds dandy within the forum, but in reality...you'll get this guy in some deep shiiite with your ignorant rhetoric.

Sorry but I'm not gonna mince words on this one...

IF you carry a gun outside the friendly confines of the USA, you better be prepared to kill someone and deal with the consequences-if you pull it out.
If you're not, that doesn't make you a pacifist...it makes you courageous enough to deal with situations without the crutch of weapon.

The Weapon of Choice
 

Cobra Enterprises

Small, easy to conceal, and very accurate up close. Got out of an interesting predicament in Guatemala because I had it in my pocket. Won't say more.

That is insane!

Next time those guatemalan robbers decide to rob a turist they might just shoot him first out of fear that he has a gun!

You are a disgrace to this forum and all other motorcycle travellers Max :(

And you were trying to arrange motorcycle tours at some point right? I will make sure to warn anyone I meet....

Peter, it's time to Cowboy Up! The guy I ran into in Guatemala won't "decide to rob a turist" ever again.

Just saying.

An armed society is a polite society.

Dude, if you are PUI (posting under influence) then you should write it at least, cause I personally don't find it funny at all.

"Cowboy up." What bullshit. People with guns are people who are afraid and have low self-esteem.

"An armed society is a polite society" What bullshit. An armed society is a society in fear of itself.

If you say that those guatemalans wont rob a tourist again that must mean that you killed them. That would make you a murderer. I hope this is not the case, but if it is I hope that you will someday see the uglyness of what you have done.

If you gave them "a scare" then what makes you think they wont try to rob someone else? The fact is that most criminals are habitual and they will just step up the violence next time to make sure no one pulls a gun on them.
Incredibly shortsightet man!

Peter, If I was under the influence, I'd be out riding my bike to another bar, not reading appeasement drivel on the internet.

self defense is not murder.

You're a liberal, aren't you?

Ahhh and now it all makes sense - a self styled 1%'r

shit Max, I am dissapointed. I thought all the gun-crazy americans stayed away from this board.

You americans take your liberty very seriously? Yeah I guess some of you do, especially on account of everyone elses safety.

Being armed makes you more free? What a joke.

damn you are right Matt!

HHHmmm... that sounded like a bit of a childish wind up from max,..... ether that or he's effluently congested. Maybe put it down to.. not particularly well traveled... I'd find it hard to believe that someone of those views has experienced any decent travel and remained so phobic about the world....

Sorry Max... they may be your views. fine , but they don't really gel around this site.

I can understand the motivation from the original question. reaqsonable enough... ask anyone on this site with some travel mileage and I'm sure they'll all agree....Don't carry a weapon!!!!
If you have any people skills you'll be fine, a stupid grin will get you a long way... carry a weapon and you will find yourself in hot water - either from authorities ( most countries have a different thought about self defense) or from running into someone with a bigger stick........

Please don´t go further here
 

No flame wars now.It was before here with just expulsed or banned members.
Just one thing:
a) America is a beautyfull continent.Not a country.
b) All people who lives in this continent are americans.
c) Enjoy this beautyfull continent with a smile and the best attitude!North and south.
KH

Che,
Haven't seen you in a while. Still fixing elevators?
I could sure use a Mate and some empanadas.

You say that self defense is not murder, well it may be so in the states, but it is not that black-white in the rest of the world.

If a guy breaks into my house in Denmark and I kill him I will go to jail for homicide. If it can be proven that he would kill me, I may get away with a few years. Killing other people is a crime.

Am I a liberal? No, I am socialist. I think you call that "commi scum" over there. (-:

But when introducing politics then you must be a republican I guess?

The next time someone asks "why do teh rest of the world hate americans"? I will point them to this thread.

As it happens I legally own a handgun here in Europe, but cannot imagine any confrontational situation where carrying it would not make matters worse. I think you mistake the intelligence to negotiate with pacifism. In iraq just after the war, american soldiers could walk about there safely with or without carrying their guns, now they are afraid to venture outsid etheir 'safe enclaves' except en masse with backup from tanks and aircraft.. the change is because they have simply antagonised the local populace with such sentiment and action as you have expressed.

As a point of reference British casualties were greater from American fire than iraqui until year three after the war.

I couldn't agree more Old Beemer....
When i lived in NZ I actively competed in practical pistol shooting and 3 gun shooting comps. I throughly enjoy hunting, but couldn't distance myself further from the idea of this guy. Don't let this guy put you off the states! you'll enjoy it and meet some great friendly people, and see some amazing scenery but like any country there'll be people with a different take on things....

wow yeah........... hope so too........

well Max... I suggest you rather stay at home and play cow boy in your back garden scaring squirl's.......... keep watching TV instead of thinking leaving your home town.......

I fare the Pisa study is right in some way........... oh dear... who is saving the world now ? ohhh yes "Team America" is on its way....... quick.... every one hiding......

well yes... we are grown up since the time of Neanderthals.... Europeans developed what most human commonly call diplomatic intelligent, rather than mixing up reality with Hollywood's patriotic diarrhea ..........

Probably make them want to move here. I've traveled a lot, and what I've found is that the world does not hate Americans. Most people in the world love the USA and embrace our music, culture, cinema and eating habits.

Tijuana is not traveling a lot! I heard a bit of that idiotic retroric while in the states..." everyone wants to move to the states" everyone copies america.... well yes the US has been influential in the world but so has Britain, and lots of countries. saying we want to be like the US because we occasionaly graze on a big mac ( without the ridicules 64 oz / 2ltr coke) doesn't mean we idolize your gun culture. NZ has more firearms per capita than the US, but the US has 1000%'s more gun crimes per capita. It's about mentallity. it's your unhealthy attitude that helps breed the take guns to school dramas!
Everyone takes something from somewhere else... The US has an obsession with cars. Who invented them...Germans. Because you own a car doesn't mean you want move to Germany. Sharpen up!

yeah smile at your enemy, confuse em until they are gone again..... befor they knock you down......
That's a diplomatic way of doing things... doing things one way but thinking the other way.... helps most of the time.....

point 1:
OK music...
yeah Blues and Rock is OK.... invented by slaves..... thanks for that....

point 2:
what culture... ????

point 3:
cinema....
well ... a small recommendation...
watch this 1st: "Why we fighting for",
2nd: "Sir! no Sir! the GI Vietnam Revolt"

there are some more....... yeah

point 4:
boot and eating habits:
poisoning nature with GM, and over stretching the health system depending on walking fat packed rubbish chute's, destroying the culture of others big style for greed........ and starving the rest who not agree........

Guys, this thread is taking a bad turn now.

We can all agree that there is a cultural difference between europe and america. But there is also difference between people.

I don't think Max represent a great part of the american people and he certainly represent a very small part of american travellers.

Therefore I would ask people to keep the generalized anti-american stuff out.

If you don't like american patriotic movies, fair enough, but some americans like them and they are not bad people for that.

America is being scolded for this and that all the time, but it is all subjective and therefore I don't think it is relevant.

So please. Don't let Max piss you off with his bullshit. I don't think he would say these things in real life, he just put himself in a corner now and can't get out of it without losing face.

So no more anti-american stuff oki? Not relevant oki?

Peace, Love and motorcycles guys.

Scum
 

...............

Well Max has made quite a few controversial posts today, but maybe just delete the posts that contain stupid stuff.

the thread itself is relevant enough.

.............

I have done that and I agree to a certain extent.

Banning people is not a good solution, but I think that removing all the controversial posts and giving a warning woulden't be going too far.

But I am not the one to take that decision, maybe we should have Grant look at this thread.

Nope, but passing his IP address to the feds might be :wave: BUT, then thats all getting a bit big brother 'ish:tank:

Just don't respond to his/her bait.

John

Somehow i get the feeling that "flying Gringo" is back :9898:

Max - I read with amusement your username and tie it in with your comments. FYI in certain parts of the world a "dong" is a slang term for a penis.
Is that what you are? Just a *****?

please go back to the 1st post......
 

Now.......... how about analysing the 1st post from "kldaniels"...... the post that started all this mass...........

I don't like attacking people at all but prefer talking in straight clear words.......

any way when I first reads this thread..... I wasn't shocked but instantly thought that it must be a sort of provocation joke, asking about "protection" with a gun ?!... no one here on HUBB really believe that some one even can think about taking a gun with him/here to explore the world....... we are not at war... we are mend to travel and explore the world not conker it.... right.........

Just scanned this thread and this is what I think.
 

I just quickly scanned through the posts on here.

Firstly, to the original question, I say that 99% of the responses were good advice in my opinion: don't carry a gun: Its an excuse to get into trouble: either with the law, or any antagonists you might meet (some drunk mouthing off is not a threat to you: pull a gun and it may change the dynamic and not for the better). Its also just going to be a reminder of all our preconceptions.

When I decided to travel to Argentina and Chile with my girlfriend, all my family and friends were "don't do it: their all banditos out there: you'll be killed just for your used chewing gum!!"

You can never escape these thoughts if you are forever checking to see if you can easily reach your "heat". Truth is the Chileans and even more so the Argentines were the warmest, most genuine people I have ever met: far friendlier than the Londoners I barely noticed on my commute to work every day.

Secondly to Max Dongo's posts:
Everyone who has responded to them: don't bother. Re-read them now, one after the other: and they are blantantly a big fat wind-up!! No-one uses that many cliches in a such a short time, unless they are trying to give a clear impression. That impression was supposed to be a extreme, NRA, xenophobe in order to get the exact response that it illicited.

WIND-UP!!! Don't take the bait.

If it is was, however unlikely, a true opinion by Max, then I have a lot of sympathy.... Those attitudes really do close one's eyes to what HU type travel can show us....

Travel safe!
PS the "only protection needed is a condom" post made me laugh: very true.
If you pay a bit extra, get a kevlar condom: bullet and STD proof....what more do you need?

you have already got your best protection
 

effective use of eyes, ears and brain is your best protection by far.

and max, what use is politeness if it is artificial and undeserved? weapons are for the weak of mind.

cheers,
andy.

No moderator needed I hope. This thread says far more about the true spirit of this community than one repressed 'cowboy'.

If he carried a gun - he's an idiot.

If he carried a gun and used it - he's an idiot.

If he carried a gun and used it and tells - he's an idiot.

If he's pretending any of the above ... I'm sure you get the picture.

I smiley face on the end of it.:smile3:

Geez, the obvious troll has triggered quite the outpouring from the European Castrati.

Hell, I'd carry a nuclear warhead wired to EEG electrodes in my skull if I thought I could get away with it.

Does that mean you disagree with the "castrati" and agree with the Troll?

I also find it ironic that those of us who think carrying a gun is daft are called castrati when a gun, in psychological terms, has often been referred to as penile compensation.

If we're the castrati, does that not mean we're the ones who should have the gun craving?...

Lets ponder...

If I was truly that afraid, there'd be no point in travelling.:(

It seems that Max has a friend in this discussion.

This whole thread is stinky bait...

The one post thread strater to the dongo one liners !!

Make yourselfs a Tea, coffee, Mate or beer and move along !! :scooter:

Not again
 

Hi
Has this not been gone over before? Skip

You have to remember that for many American motorcyclists, a pistol is just part of your normal riding gear. Guns really are that much a part of the culture here. When I was at the HU meet in colorado a couple years ago, 5 of us decided to go to town for breakfast one morning. I didn't know any of them before this, but when we got to the restaurant and found out they served alcohol, 2 of the 5 had to out and lock their pistols in their luggage, as it is illegal to carry a firearm in an establishment that serves liquor. I think carrying a gun to eat at a restaurant in a resort town is a little extreme, but they were within the law. One of the first questions i am usually asked when people hear I have ridden through Latin America is did I carry a gun. When I say no, I have to listen to all the crap about how I am a sheep offering myself up for slaughter, blah, blah. Coming from an environment like this, I can see why someone whould ask the question if they should carry or not. Most gun owners are responsible with them, but I am still a lot more afraid of being shot accidentaly than I am of any supposed bad guys.

Andy,

To be fair, I don't think anyone begrudged a perfectly valid question: the inital post asked for advice and it was given without bile, I feel.

It only got unecessary when someone baited other posters knowing it's a topic close to people's hearts on here. In other words, I feel that HUBBers responded to one poster's daft comments rather than the initial question that was even handed and unbiased: just a request for other's opinions.

I certainly hope that it did not leave the initial poster with any bad feelings from the rest of the forum. Rather, I hope that any trips go ahead as planned and that, whether a gun is packed or not, feeling the need to use it never arises. Instead a gun will be seen in the same light as half the stuff people pack: surplus to requirements and an unecessary cargo for the next trip. Spend the space packing underwear or souvenirs, I say...

Hi Mini Dongo,

I want to encourage you: DO take a gun along on your next "rough" trip.

Pretty soon we will never have anymore stupid threads from you ...

say wot
 

Some words the British like using are, you F:censored:ING TWAT

A bit off topic, but...

I refer to myself as an American mainly because that's what most people I've met from outside the USA call us. Besides, we are the only country that has the word America in the name of our country, it would be difficult to call myself anything else. We call citizens of "Los Estados Unidos de Mexico", Mexicanos, correct? No slight to other people of the Americas intended.

Opening Minds not Blowing Out Brains...
 

Warthog and AndyT are right - from a US perspective, it's a reasonable question. Most of us know that guns are a normal part of everyday life, up and down the Americas. Many of us have friends, expats and citizens, who have guns in their homes, in their businesses, sometimes on their hips. Culturally, it can be a bit odd for us, but that's part of travel, no? And even this European castrati appeaser red gets a kick out of letting off a few rounds in a Nicaraguan backyard every now and then. Bangs are fun. Cordite smells exciting. Coconut shies are made for Colt Commanders.

But that wasn't what created the stir. The noisy reaction was to one poster talking gleefully about murdering another human, both here and in another thread, in a tale smudged with sniggering smilies and home-run high fives. He's either a childish fantasist, a genuine killer, or a divisive troll. Whatever the answer, he's not the kind of fella who's gonna be especially helpful round here. My angry, abusive words were admittedly fuelled by a dozen pints of Guinness, and I'm sorry about the mess that the mods must have found in the morning, but this really ain't the place for that kind of vigilante dick-swinging.

And back to the original question, just in case it was genuine. It's a really bad idea to cross borders, travel foreign countries with an unregistered, concealed weapon. If you get caught, you'll do hard time in a very unpleasant nick. If you don't get caught (which means the gun's stashed, inaccessible and consequently useless), you'll still be worrying about getting caught everytime you see a roadblock, and that will eat into the trip's smiles. And if you get in a situation where you have to use it - well, as has been said - you'll either use it decisively, and have to deal with the corpse and the clean-up, or you'll have it swiped and stuck up your ass. Which will be like being in that unpleasant nick, but without the tenderness...

Make the trip, forget the gun, move quickly through the seedier border towns that spawn the lurid headlines, dive into the Mexican interior and have the un-armed time of your life.

Suerte, Dan

Do we met?
 

I don´t remember you by this name.....empanadas and quilmes maybe.
George or Phillipe?
KH

I beg to differ. You will be hard pressed to find a Canadian who refers to him/her shelf as an American. In fact, when we speak of US citizens, we refer to them as Americans.

Lets also not forget that there are two Americas, North and South (or there was back when I went to grade school). And I agree that both North America and South America are beautiful continents.

And you are all welcome to visit our beautiful and vast country. But please leave your guns at home. Our Canadian border guards will confiscate them from you and send you to jail.

And does it REALLY matter if you are robbed a few times?
 

And back to the motive for the question...
Like most travellers i agree that carrying a weapon of any kind is just an invitation to have to use it. And i have a an additional way of looking at things - in most cases they´re poor, we´re rich. So what if you´re robbed!
Every time i´ve had something stolen while in a 3rd world country, whether i was there or not, i see it as an 'unintentionable charitiable donation' that i try to learn from so that in the future i can choose where my future donations or goodwill is directed. And besides, i will go back to work and buy another of whatever they took. They only want what is of value to them remember, and hurting you is never the primary motivation as what does this achieve for them?
It´s like speeding fines when you own a 1000cc sportsbike. Just factor it in to the cost of the activity.

I am Spartacus...
 

Que tal, maestro? Todo bien? Tranquilo como Camilo?

I noticed that 'elevator' reference. Is this the return of Spartacus?

Suerte, Dan

Obvio despues de unas quilmes heladas
 

Dan i still have your cold quilmes in my fridge.So remember to visit us again!
Me parece que nuestro amigo ha vuelto!
Cuidate

AndyT: Thank you for your post. Valuable information and I can understand it, from an outside perspective, but as a European it is very hard to understand and therefore the reactions are so strong. But thank you.

I would like to remind people again that flame war and "them and us" comments are really too low!

All "real" travellers know that people come in all kinds and sizes, regardless off nationality. Americans, or citizens of the USA more correctly, have been scourged for much in many years. Some is justified and and some is not.

But one thing is sure. By far, far, far all the north americans on this board are good people, so don't insult their country and culture! It is not fair.

Max Dongo is an idiot, but he would be no matter if he came from the US, Italy or Denmark for that sake.

Lets try not to generalize and instead agree that a turd is a turd.

:welcome: your first post! No! Dont bring a gun there not legal most places south of the USA border. There are big bad fines and jail in places that you will cutes thing to ever be seen in years and when they get good and ready to bring you to court in a few years you will be looking at 10 to 20 years wishing you died in one of there pens. That they realy have little use on a trip of that long, $60 in cigars to hand out to new frends you more than a gun.

:offtopic:Dam you people, do you all have to bite the all the bait some one toss at you? Then your only come back is old tired anti-American sentiment. bahh have you read threw most of his posts? hes a troll that come here when jo mamma on advrider forms gets too cold for his liking. Hiding a gun on a bike? that is useless you never know when you might need it. Right? Pulling it out of its hiding spot on the road will show every kid where he hides it and hes now target number one on all the thugs list. He cant even hold his character up "put a cap in his ass" is gangsta "cowboy up" is redneck and they hate each other. All this over a 16 year old fracking troll.

:ban:Mods ban max the troll and lets get over this.

:eek3:Max are you nuts they can run your isp, you admitted to possible murder. Stay on ADVRider they love gun posts there, regale them tales of capping and cowboys. Stop stirring up people here its not that kind of sight.

An interesting perspective , I'm certainly not rich and I certainly would begrudge a damn thief a single penny .
Thieves are just thieves and not necessarily poor and will steal from anyone and are despised by the honest citizens of any "third world" country .[ "Undeveloped" might be a better definition since the fall of the Soviet Union] .
If you see your stolen valuables as a charitable donation , I think that you have an awful lot to learn , not all thieves are budding Robin Hoods .

Forget the gun - take a bomb!
 

A.K.A. a 1980 Yam LC350 :rofl:

The ultimate troll!
 

Did any of you notice that KLDaniels only posted the one time - the start of this here thread? and you all have been going on and on about this? Of course, ol' Max stuck a couple on here to really get you wound up.

good one, KL!

Well spoken.

This is precisely my reasoning even though I consider the right to weaponry to be even more fundamental than the right to free speech.

Pepper spray while it has its limitations is a very reasonable compromise.

Pepper Spray can confer a substantial advantage even in the case of multiple adversaries or blunt or edged weapons. (carry a big can and be ready to spray and run)

Fox Labs makes the best hottest stuff available.

How about the Vietnamese? Remember those scenes of the US ambassador clinging to a helicopter as he fled the scene of the crime in Saigon?

I think this is another wind up, but in case it is a practical though:

Pepper spray (and Tazer before anyone else suggests the things) is an offensive weapon in most of the world. You go to prison for owning it, you go to prison for assault if you use it, you go to prison for murder if you spray someone who's body can't handle it and they die. You also have the same issue you'd have with a small gun; injured/sprayed/fried people scream for their mates, call the police and go get their own weapons to look for the bloke who did it and stands out like a sore thumb even if he has made it thirty miles down the road.

Without getting into political debate (we'd no doubt disagree) which is for another site, the practicalities say no to any weapon, especially anything that has no other purpose.

If people really are that insecure, maybe do a self defense course or take up boxing or something? The men with guns can't confiscate your hands or head at the first border post.

Andy

I know Andy,my intention is not to start another flame war on such nice subject.I think outside the USA most people central and south called you guys "gringos" and "yanquis".
No one can tell you how you define yourself,that is your own choice.For me and if you look at any book or for the internet case(wikipedia) america is a continent,named after Amerigo Vespucio(italian cartograph).American is an inhabitant of this continent(argentinians,canadians,mexicanos and carrie on and on).
Enjoy our continent and if you drive by i spent a cold cerveza and a nice asado!
CU
Karl

Robert you forgot "central america"
 

Hopefully no one from Mexico or Nicaragua,El Salvador etc was reading here.....it would be a gigantic water canal .....joking.
Karl

My goodness, did that make me laugh.....probably a wind up, but just in case...:

Probably translates as "Shoot first, ask questions later"?

So, does that mean you were obliged to type that with the barrel of a Magnum, otherwise it doesn't count?

The greatest thing about McDonalds is in fact a French invention - the fact that you can get a beer with your BigMac in Paris.

In much of Central and South America (which is the forum we are in) pepper spray is legal.

I´ve had a bottle lashed to my vest for the last 35,000 km without problems.
Also have met half of dozen other riders doing the same thing.

Frankly, I can´t even begin to wrap my head around a society so feminized as to consider pepper spray an offensive weapon.



Psychobabble. The fact someone is armed gives you no insight into their mind.

I´ve done a good bit of Krav Maga and numerous oriental styles. I still prefer to have a can of pepper spray on hand to tip the scales in my favor.

In fact, many people who legally carry concealed weapons keep some pepper spray around so they have a less than lethal option on hand.

You can´t legally shoot an unarmed aggresive drunk but you can spray him.

This is actually viewed as a de-escalation of force in many States.

I´m entirely serious.

Governments are instituted among men to protect their rights. Collective rights are merely extensions of individual rights. This includes the right and means of self defense.

Just because you work for Hugo Chavez or George Bush doesn´t give you any magic powers or privileges the rest of us do not have.

Very Well. We are all Americans.

But I want all of you Mexican, Central, and South ****Americans**** to make me a promise.

If you are ever on an airplane hijacked by Islamic terrorists and the hijackers while wildly waving their weapons scream "All of the Americans stand up and get into the center" I want you to promise you will shout out, "Hey, I´m an American too"

Only when the american do the same when the terrorists are shouting for the evil mohamed drawing danes. Uhhhh we are truly evil.

Any weapon upscales the situation. Period.

You have the police to deal with aggersive drunks and it is their job, not yours.

I´m with you 100%.

If only Americans were as enthusiastic about free speech rights and uh, restraining the powers of the Executive Branch as they are about the 2nd Amendment. The world would be a better place.


Yes, when seconds count, the police will be there in minutes.

Order a pizza and call the police and see which one shows up first.

The last time I called the police it took them 20 minutes to arrive. The situation did involve deadly force on the part of the assailant and I was wearing a sidearm with which I was profficient.

I didn´t shoot the guy. Didn´t need to. But I´m glad I had the option because the police were way to late to be of assistance.

Many of the students I´ve trained have not been so lucky.

Honestly, your explanation above does little to explain your perspective to me. All the same, I was not raising any questions about the "right to bear arms" per se, although I do think its out-dated and should be irrelavant in a well-balanced society, but that's just me...

What I was questioning was the logic of your remark that I then quoted. You essentially stated that as far as you were concerned the right to bear arms was more important than the right to free speech.

I find it ironic that without free speech no one would be even able to voice objection to, or support for, fire arms.

Does it not seem strange that these priorities mean that you place expression of opinion lower than being able to shoot someone?

That is a scary thought to me. Personally, I think guns do nothing for security in a society, they only up the stakes but I don't want to be drawn into a guns are good/bad debate.

However, in Britain I am not allowed to carry a gun. I do not feel disempowered by this. I am allowed to express my opnions and loosing this would disempower me.

Bottom line, I don't get the impression you really thought about what is meant by what you wrote...

Can you please state your name?
 

L J
I would of course,but i have the impression you underestimate those guys!They would check my passport as they allways do.They would find out quickly i am an argentinian.
All fligth high jackers where allways highly educated people.I think they would ask first for all US citizens to lift their hands......and check with the papers
But in any case this is not the place to talk about this things.There are propper forums for that.
In regard to defense methods i would carry a nice ax or machete(on the inner pannier frame)as those are considered tools.If hide properly but handy could do a good defence job.
And good you could see we both are americans,it will make your US identity stronger!
I personaly have guns,practice shooting with rifles on a range.Done properly and with responsabilty is an excellent activity.More people get killed by knifes then fire weapons.
Pepper spray...maybe i would take Tabasco extra hot!
Ok i will finish this here.
Karl

The NRA has never defended the other 9 'Bill of Rights' as intensely as they do the 2nd Amendment. In fact, they don't even defend the Constitution as much as they defend their 2nd Amendment to that Constitution. It's not about preserving rights, its about preserving the right to have guns, in order to? .... preserve rights?

I don't think so.

:offtopic:NRA=National Rifle Association is a firearm special interest group nothing more. There privately funded to support privit gun ownership in the USA. There suport of the 2nd amendment is part of this. Dont let there "defending the costitution" fool you. Other amendments have other suporters. Rights and responsibilities have little to do with any special interest group.

All I ask is you also declare yourself an American in such circumstances. Sort out the papers later.

I think anybody who has ridden through Guatemala´s backroad has asked themselves, "Why am I the only person here who is not wearing a machete?"

I thought about getting one but settled on pepper spray because I didn´t think a machete would be a good defense against another machete (can´t effectively parry) and a machete is rather conspicious to carry around in urban areas once you are off the bike.

So join the ACLU (which does nothing to protect the 2nd).

Don´t recall mentioning the NRA which was founded 137 years for the purpose of promoting firearms instruction. Ulysses S. Grant certainly didn´t act as president of the organization for lobbying reasons.

Strongly prefer to fund GOA, JPFO or RMGO for political purposes. The NRA is far too wimpy when it comes to politics.

The majority of societies are not well balanced for any significant period of time, say, 200 years.

I mean it more even broadly. Free speech is predicated on personal security.

In the extreme case, if you are dead you can´t exactly express yourself.

A more subtle variation: If you depend on another entity for your personal security then that entity can dictate the terms of your speech.

Ask the Estonians how that works. They should still remember.

Feminized society? Are you kidding me? Pepper spray sitting on a shelf is innocent. Pepper spray sprayed into somebody's face is a weapon. Same logic applied to guns, and BitTorrent...its all how you choose to use.

Hell if you limit yourself to guns, pepper spray, etc. as your options to escape tense/hot situations; then you're equally guilty as those folks that think overland bikes must have a the GS suffix or knobby tires to make it around. You underestimate the cleverness of the human mind to the same extent you'll never understand the intention of someone brandishing a weapon: the possibilities are infiinite.

Bottom line: if you choose to carry a weapon you better be prepared to kill the person and deal with the consequences. Because if you don't, whatever may happen to you could be viewed as self defense/preservation;)
;)

Well, that is a little hard to substantiate, given that the world has changed infinitely in the last 100 years alone. There is no society that has been as much flux as the western world is today. Is it unstable: not especially, it is merely morphic....


That extreme case you cite is a fair point but in response to your more subtle perspective: Firstly personal security is a subjective thing. Some people just lock their doors, some sleep with a crow bar under the pillow, some an MP5.
Secondly, if you say that an entity that provides your security also controls your freedom of speech, you are saying that democracy does not work, as which ever entity is set to govern, it cannot be trusted to protect your rights.

I do not feel, living in Europe that our rights are not protected, that we are not protected or that our freedom of speech is curtailed as a result of not being armed.

Thirdly, I do not feel that the Estonian occupation by Soviet forces is an appropriate example. The dependency of which you speak was enforced, not chosen. Estonian security was not high on the agenda, as 60% were carted off to the Gulag. That bears no comparison to say "a USA" where you elect a president using a consitution where the 2nd amendmetn has been repealed.

More realistic would be other democracies where people have elected their protecting body but do not, themselves, own weapons eg most of Europe, Japan (as far as I'm aware) etc. Are these places full of oppressed opinion?

A state where one's rights are ultimately upheld by one's ownership of a deadly weapon sounds a few too many steps close to anarchy...

Now you´re getting nasty. ;-)

The best protection I regularly carry with me on the bike is probably a grin and a handshake. Easy to get out, disarming, weighs nothing and carries no legal liability. Has got me out of a lot of tricky situations and even turned what looked like trouble into a free meal a few times. Looking like shit probably helps too.

I would far rather live in a limited dictatorship with rigorously restricted powers than an absolute unrestricted democracy....which is where most of the Western World is headed. Democracy and freedom are not synonymous.

But yes, this is the fundamental problem in designing ANY system of government. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Given the blood soaked recent (last 100 years) history of Europe I think there is a very strong case for owning weapons despite the recent brief bout of tranquility.

Furthermore, Europe exists in its current form due to multiple misguided American interventions and a willingness to use force to defend nation states that were no longer inherently capable of preserving themselves.

But yes, possessing arms is no guarantee of free speech nor is the absence of arms a guarantee of the lack of that freedom. I never said there were.
There are other factors...other failure modes.

However, individual freedom is ultimately rooted in the willingness to use force to protect your life, liberty and property. There is a place, hell, a moral obligation to use violence to protect these things. This is true in both the collective and individual case which are equally legitimate.


Everybody´s an anarchist when push comes to shove.

I agree entirely and would add good situational awareness.

What´s your backup plan?

bike lock and a tyre iron

Plan A: Smile and Handshake
Plan B: Negotiate
Plan C: Give up something really minor (Cigar/swig of Jamesons/bung money)
Plan D: Run like B*****y.
Plan E: Give up something that's worth more than the alternative (cash/bike)
Plan Z: Tyre Iron/D Lock/boot in their bits followed by plan D

With the exception of knowing not to carry certain items at certain borders (Cuban cigars US, Jamesons Saudi, Moroccan snuff UK etc.) you can't actually get into trouble of your own making with any of the above.

Andy

I very much doubt a shot gun, a can of MACE and a .32 pistol would have much positive effect on a Nazi/Soviet/Napoleonic army. Same goes for bands or Colombian drug growers, African rebels etc. Serious men with serious guns will do serious damage if you start a shooting war. Blow their minds with paperwork or come across as just another mindless bumpkin wandering the countryside and they soon get bored with you or simply want to talk.

I was in Spain during one of the ETA campaigns. I was lost and the only person left at a checkpoint was a squadie with a .50 cal Browning, covering the traffic in the search area. A friendly Ola and request for directions in really bad Spanish got me a simple and friendly response and a reccomendation for a cracking hotel. The lad might have worked for one of Franco's generals, but he really didn't care about English idiots and was happy to talk to someone he didn't have to salute. Anyone sat in that checkpoint clutching their pistol and trying not to look shifty was in way more trouble.

Andy

Thanks for the tip.

This is why I have a 50 bmg, fn-fal, HK91, etc. in my safe. Many of my friends legally own 20mm anti-tank guns (solothurns) and even howitzers.

I had the pleasure of experiencing some urban riots and find a Fn-Fal quite adequate for such problems.

The original game plan for America was a citizen militia with equal access to every horrible weapon of war possesed by the government. No standing army to go on foreign adventures or for domestic repression.

I still think this a good idea.

:nono: NO... :eek3:

You're absolutely right. Spur of the moment and all that. Apologies due - message deleted.

Hey Teflon
Why you apologize?, I mean I’m with you also reading here all this S…. without understand what a F…. some are talking…..
Saludos.

Thanks Javkap, though I was still going to delete it even before I read your post. Good thing I didn't have a gun, eh? Can't delete a bullet.:eek3:

I'm gonna move on from this thread. Bad karma.

Saludos.

3Wheelbonnie beat me to it, but I agree that personal gun ownership would have done little to avert those situations.

Firstly, I must say that is a slight Hollywoodism. I do not think it sound to suggest that the outcome of the World Wars (I assume you refer to these conflicts) were settled entirely due to the intervention of the States. The tide turned in Europe following Stalingrad and the advance of the Red Army from the East. On top of which, I think it fair to say that the US has also initiated a number of fairly catastrophic offensives since that period too (also nations pretty unable to preserve themselves, if I recall)....

All the same, history aside, I do not see, as Andy stated earlier, how personal gun ownership, which is what this discussion arose from has to do with the political history of the last 100 years in Europe. Indeed, even the right to defend oneself. I can defend myself, with reasonable force, if needed. I am however, not allowed to own a gun, nor do I feel I need one. That will not change the course of things to come in Europe or the world, but it does mean that the bloke I have a disagreement with about ritht of way in a car park is not likely to try and shoot me...

I disagree: I think, first and foremost the best way to ensure one's own personal freedoms is care as much about everyone elses, too: it comes from mutual respect, and giving a crap about those around you. That is what cements a society. Why is it small town life seems far more relaxed that the city swell...?

In any case, I never said that using force to protect ones life was not acceptable, I simply said that owning a gun is not the route to personal security one thinks it is. The appalling school shootings that we hear about once or twice a year (it seems) are just one very sad example of what widely accessible guns can lead to IMO...

I think "moral obligation" and "use of violence" together is as fine an oximoron as I ever read. Morality usually teaches us that violence should be avoided; that a peaceful solution is best sought. Violence is not often a solution, but usually begets more... Northern Ireland, Israel, Rwanda, etc.
Not that personal gun ownership would have changed these situations much either.

My view is that a gun in every home brings that possibility one step closer than is needed.

That made I laugh, that did!! :D

I do not see what WW 1 or 2 has to do with taking a hand gun to South America in 2008. I dont see where the poster asked what guns you have or if Europeans like guns. You want to post fealings about the USA guns or any thing else have the guts to open your own thread in the HUBB BAR. The Poster opend this thread posed only one time on the HUBB and has not posted any more. I think hate filled venom ran him off. He comes here hoping for a little help and gets almost 7 pages full of poop. I Hear as a person travils more they mellow and have respect for others point of view and ways of life. Odd Im see so little of it here.

MMn some very interesting viewpoints here in this thread .
It has wandered far away from the original post , of course .

However IMHO opinion ,a gun is just another means of defending one's self .
Anti gun protagonists on this thread have encouraged the use of , martial arts , knives , axes , shovels , pepper spray etc .
Which are all a means of tipping the balance in one's favour by the use of violence be it with a tool or a kind of knowledege that one assumes the opponent will not have .

Being able to produce a gun in the appropriate situation may actually defuse a tense situation , furthermore it could tip the balance in the favour of ,for example , a slightly built woman being attacked by a large male , who has more than robbery on his mind .

I think it is rather crass to be critical of a country and society that has evolved around widespread legal gun ownership from pioneer days [ such as the USA ] when there is ample history of extreme violence and genocide from within Europe ,in living memory ,stemming from illegal gun ownership .

Guns in themselves do not cause the problem , people are the problem .

There are three kinds of guns available to civilians , those that are kept for sporting purposes , those that are used in a personal defence role and those used for illegal purposes , maybe some of the anti gun folks should think about that for a while before lumping all gun owners together under one category as undesirables .

Or, perhaps DL, he was simply trolling, eh?

mission accomplished!