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Sealing spoke wheels for tubeless
Anyone tried making a spoked rim tubeless by gluing/sealing all around the spoke nipples inside with some cunning sealant like "Liquid Vinyl" (see link below).
What grams you add in glue you more than save in inner tube. A regular rim won't have the bead-seating inner lip of course but that's only a safety thing I think and would make mounting easier anyway. You'll loose spoke tensioning ability but how often do you do that? I wonder if the flex of a regular spoked rim (or any other number of reasons!) make this a dumb idea. Not much to be lost trying though. IMO tubeless is the way to go - if it all goes wrong you can always bung in a tube. And what's the difference between the same tyre in tubed and tubeless versions? Is the bead smoother/different? Ch tubeless wire wheels? - Kawasaki Motorcycle Forums |
Yes tubeless is the way to go, butt hen you have to buy a Boxer.... :-)
Check bottom of the page: WoodysWheelWorks.com |
Maybe ok on the road, but if you deflate the tyres for dirt or sand riding you risk the tyre coming off the rim and instantly deflating. The hump may be important.
If you hit a pothole at speed, is there a danger of the tyre suddenly deflating? BMW make tubeless spoked wheels and Honda did (some XL600 model). |
The BMW and old XLM spoked tubeless rims all avoided having the spokes go into the well of the rim to enable spoke tensioning. I dont know if Excel or someone make rims like this.
Re the hump, I remember a tubed Tenere I had in the late 80s whose Tagasako? rims for some reason had that bead-locating hump which made changing tyres a pain. I set it up on a crate without a tyre, put it in gear and ground it off. I suppose a stiff tyre like a Desert run tubeless would stay on a humpless rim better than some, but the Tenere above suggests spoked rims did come with a hump, maybe they still do? Even then, if you visualise non-racing cornering forces on a low psi tyre in sand it does not seem too bad. Ch |
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Nuetech Tubliss Core any one willing to test pilot them.. |
Well spotted Xander, a small, chunky pushbike-sized tube to seal the tyre bead to bead, not the rim so you keep spoke tension ability.
I think I've seen similar on giant-tyred 4WDs run in Iceland for extremely low pressure (more for rim retention as they are tubeless already of course). I've also used pushbike tubes in a slightly similar way to seal and so mount tubeless 4WD tyres. Looks like Tubliss is aimed at dirt bikes: light and relatively slow but a lot of impact flex going on - plus a van nearby. Not the same as a GS12 laden with all the Touratech fruit. Avoids the whole road-use legal issue and who can blame them, but AFAIK speed ratings are tyre related(flex + friction = heat = high wear/failure). No friction with the red liner (or barely any compared to a full contact tube) and even less heat with Slime-like sealant, just regular tyre flex. Run a good tyre with the appropriate rating for your bike + right pressure for the load/terrain as you would normally. I'll give them a try - all you got to do is take tubes with until you have faith in it. Ch Added later: Just found this on Tubliss tire product - ADVrider Tubliss officially is not recommending them for highway use. One reason is that they have not been tested to any standards for highway use and another reason is that if the system were to fail while riding at highway speed the tire goes flat immediately. No slow leaks, just boom and it's gone. Now having said all of that they have some customers that are using the system on the street and have had no problems as of yet. Tubliss and Brap Offroad both are selling this system for off road use only at this time. What it gets used for is out of our control. If you have any other questions, please feel free to email me back or call me at 717-285-7873. Thanks and have a great day. Marty Graver BRAP! Offroad So, as you guys probably already know, these are for off-road, slower speed only. I think when he says failing he means the red core bit - not a regular tyre tread puncture where a flat would occur in the normal tubeless fashion (ie: slower than tubes). If anything the red rim lock would make the deflation safer as it would hold the tyre on the rim. So as I understand it, as long as the red tube doesn't fail (it's v thick and far from the tyre tread most of the time) it's business as usual. |
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Chris I think you may be right.. I use TKC80 on my AT (which are labelled as tubeless anyway so a normal "nail in the tread" will go down at a normal rate). So with the rim locks and Red tube it should hold, better then I am running now (no rim locks, I know I know.. just have not got a round to fitting them yet) ... I was worried about heat (from weight/speed) . but your point is 100% correct.. I wonder what the failure rate of the red-tube is? I also wonder can you "slime" them (yes you will be upping the Heat but could lower the risk of catastrophic failure). Chris if you are going to give them a try I will be watching with great interest..please keep us up todate... Edit: B**ger i just realised the dont do a 17" hmmmmm As i am changing my rims later this year anyway.. maybe i could go up to 18" |
I also wonder can you "slime" them (yes you will be upping the Heat but could lower the risk of catastrophic failure).
Actually I believe Slime and the like reduce heat or at least dissipate it better. Slimed my car the other month after years of thinking about it. Not infallible for punctures but then you just ram a gluey plug in and pump up which is the whole point of tubeless for me. FWIW gluey plugs also can fail I found: then you take the tyre off and go to the menders for an inner patch. And it seems you can ride flat OK on tubliss but the tyre will get very very hot even at slow speeds. Tried this on an XT in Mali once with not choice and it wrecked the tyre in 20km. ..please keep us up todate... Will do. Contacted the UK distribs and have a trip coming up on an 18/21 bike running new TKCs. Shame they're not in 17 - maybe it's a too obvious road bike size? Anyway it's same/cheaper and a better solution than those tyre balls and more flexible than mousses, IMO Ch btw, will be trying one these too: probably instant landfill but worth a tenner to try with a bikepump as back up. Airman Compact Air Compressor - Screwfix.com, Where the Trade Buys |
I don't think I like the DIY approach. Maybe it's the engineer in me but sealing air really needs the right surfaces and the right materials used in the right way. I've known enough things leak when the seals were designed to known criterea to go try the "slap enough paint on" approach. BMW must have looked at semi-liquid sealants, O-rings, diaphragms and a host of other ways to seal the tyre and eventually went for the idea of separating the mechanical and pneumatic. This is good engineering as it avoids dynamic seals (your spokes and rim flex so the seal must too) which will always leak even if you go for something like a diaphragm never mind semi-liquid stuff. For a good dynamic seal you need a diaphragm to make the seal effectively static or an O-ring type seal with the right compression throughout the movement range. Liquids have no compression and to me would leak as soon as the spokes flexed. How much is the big question.
Tyre repair gloop (basically water with suspended silicone blobs) is the equivalent of emptying the teapot down the sink. You'll think you blocked the plug hole, but come back in a few hours.....In a tyre repair the glue holds the plug (mechanical) while the rubber in compression does the sealing, hence it's a good seal. I won't be doing this, but if you really do want to be the first (and lacking a tyre engineer to tell me otherwise), the pneumatic guy suggests keeping the rim tape. A least this will slow the flow rate if the silicone does open a leak path and will keep the seal on the spokes in compression and as static as possible. Andy |
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BMW must have looked at semi-liquid sealants, O-rings, diaphragms and a host of other ways to seal
I must say fixing the spokes outside the rim seems the obvious and easy way round it - or cast wheels of course (which I read somewhere are lighter on the t/l GS650 compared to the tubed 800 - could be wrong). Lashings of B&Q silicon sealant under the rim tape sounds a good and reverseable bodge (as the best bodges are) but I wonder if there is some alloy corrosion (the vinegary smell) or outdoor temps ageing element in the silicon? Maybe some gasket compound would be better but whatever, it would be prone to lift off with centrifugal forces at speed unless the rim tape was a giant hose clip. Anyway, Tubliss seemed to have engineered a neat solution. With that the centrifugal (which I didn't consider before) is broadly with you. Thanks for the SP on the Airman pump - landfill it is then. Still Screwfix sounds like a good place for a wander and it's right next to Ikea for the Mrs - everyone wins! Ch |
Threewheelbonnie,
I'm with you on this, I would rather put my trust in the tyre companies than someone who has tried a bodge and got away with it. OK if you are in the middle of nowhere and you have to find a fix somehow and then get the correct repair done as soon as you can. I know there are those that will say that they have been using this or that for ages on the road but you don't get any test data to say what the limits are and what kind of bikes that are used. Cheers Ian:thumbup1: |
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Slime, if nothing else, can slow down rapid air loss you can get with a tube. Not good when fully loaded on highway at 80 mph. Quote:
Not to denigrate tire engineers, but this really is just not that complex or hard to manage. Experience messing with it over the years can be a good way to know what works and what won't. Patrick :mchappy: |
Sealing rims is a great way to avoid having to pull wheels off and patch tubes. This has been done successfully for a long time. I first heard of it in about 1998 on the Yahoo Triumph Tiger list. A really S. African guy, really good mechanic and tour operator, sealed up the rims on his rental Tigers. Worked out well from what I understand.
Woody's Wheel Works can do it too (for US guys) and I'm sure any good wheel builder can seal up rims properly. I did mine myself. I have not finished the project yet. But will in near future, and will report back! I have sealed the rims on my DR650 ... can't find the "after" pics..... I will be changing tires soon and will post the pics of what they look like with sealer on there. I did this mostly to avoid rapid air loss. Most rims will hold the bead solid and do not need a tube to keep them in place. Could a really hard hit unseat the bead? Regards my DR650, I don't know for sure. The product I used is called: 3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200 Here is what 3M claim: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Watertight Bonding/Sealing of Fiberglass and Wood. Ideal for Through-Hull and Deck Fittings and Deck to Hull Joints. Flexible Cures in 7 days ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I totally trust 3M, they make great products. This stuff is not some ordinary Silicone sealer. It's tough as Hell and adheres to the Aluminum very very well. I tried to peel it off the spoke nipples after it had cured for a few days (meant to cure a week) I couldn't get it off! Still flexible but sticks in place! This stuff is PERMANENT! Regards spokes: Once the sealer is on and fully cured, the spokes should not move, therefore may not ever need adjustment again. (theoretically :innocent:) Time will tell. My bike has only done 4000 miles since I sealed them and like I said, I have not finished the job yet and am still running a tube. Spokes all good so far. I'm still running a tube. I did this initially to slow rapid air loss. At some point I will go tubeless and install a tubeless style valve stem and see how it holds. Other projects in the way at the moment. I have a spare set of wheels to "experiment" on. :thumbup1: Patrick :mchappy: |
Good on you M-Dog. Interesting to hear someone has tried it, can actually recommend a product and that the idea has been around for ages.
Whip that tube out and take it round the block pronto, what are you waiting for?! the spokes should not move, therefore may not ever need adjustment again. (theoretically... I think it could be theoretically because it assumes that spoke loosening only happens at the now sealed up nipple. I have a feeling a spoke can simply 'stretch' along its entire length. Dont they normally break at the hub end? i cant remember. Not sure Woody's is still doing it is he? See: WoodysWheelWorks.com - under KTM 950 Wheels He mentions the complexities of sealant and centrifugal force which occurred to me earlier. I would rather put my trust in the tyre companies than someone who has tried a bodge and got away with it. Ian, we're not talking about messing around with trusted tyres but sealing wheel rims. The tyre is not affected except that it now runs cooler and deflates more slowly on puncture. In the old days what has come to be known as 'adventure motorcycling' was all about what I call 'bodging' - aka experimentation. Of course a proper tubeless rim would be best to save all this messing about with 3M gloop, but on the sort of bikes I like they are rare at present. I was sceptical about tubeless on bikes for overlanding but am now converted enough to give it a try. As we all know punctures are the most common breakdown we'll experience on the road. Decent proven TL tyres like TKC80s exist so IMO it's time to make spoked rims catch up with 3M or Tubliss. Ch |
Woody's
Hey guys, I am pleased to report Woody's is still sealing rims here in Denver. I just got my wheels back- new rims, spokes, nipples- they look amazing. Problem is, Woody explained they are only sealing the 19" wheel, not the 21." Woody gave me a tour of the new shop. To seal the rear wheel they use a type of silicone that takes some 48 hours to set. They prefer not to seal the front rim as they had several failures in the past. They are currently working on an ironclad solution for the 21'' rim. Woody advises carrying a tube in case the sealing fails, though he says they have the rear wheel dialed in these days. Woody is semi-retired now and his Son Chris is stepping in. They are both terrific fellows and their product is fantastic. Patrick, if you get that sealant thing worked out I imagine you could make quite a bundle on the side sealing West Coast rims! I had 4 punctures over the last 50,000 miles- the rear tire EVERY time. I look forward to plugging instead of levering. Now watch, the next 4 punctures will surely be the FRONT- still tubed- tire! H.
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I agree...adventure motorcycling was borne out of the necessity to bodge and experiment...in fact, that's how a lot of proper solutions got developed and sold, and subsequently integrated into later models of that bike/product. I am a huge fan of tubeless. BUT aside from the rim, tire choice is extremely important and complicated. Beyond the tread pattern of the TKC vs the Anakee, etc. You have to consider the sidewall strength, the composition of the plies, and number of the plies on both the sidewall and tread. I luckily suffered only one puncture on my last trip, plugged it. There were quite a few sharp rocks in the Niger and Algeria that promised to shred my tire, but luck and a 5 ply tread on rear and front, supported by 5 ply tread on the sidewalls, absorbed the blows readily. |
edde- what 5x5 tire were you running? Hope to talk to you before I return to Africa, am "doing" the west coast route this time before re-visiting the east coast. Later, H.
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Like I said, it's the engineer in me that likes to see proper testing, an affliction that no doubt does prevent progress that inventive people will naturally bypass. I've had one explosive blow out in my previous test driving career (I used to work for WABCO the brakes people), fortunately on an axle with twin tyres but the noise was enough. I can also change my tubes in next to no time, so no encouragment there I guess :offtopic: The comments from the guys doing this in the US are interesting. The bigger the wheel the harder it is to seal, or is it the front position? The spoke flexing is different either way IMHO. A rear is going to flex it's spokes based mostly on engine torque applied? The ends of the spokes to me will "roll" in the rim, something the front also see's under braking? The front is subject more to impact type hits to the rim trying to push the spoke into the rim, making a gap a little like a poppet valve as the rim flexes? The longer the spoke the bigger the gap created when it moves, so the harder it is to keep your chosen seal in compression? As a test routine, I'd want to seal the biggest rear I could and ride it off road so it see's impacts. Then I'd want to try the same size as a front, so 19-inch on a classic/Enfield? You'd at least be learning if it's the wheel loading or spoke length that limits your seal. Hopefully you find out if you've got a rolling or opening issue and can then add a suitable o-ring or flat seal to support the semi-liquid? My other fear is changing the resonant frequency of the wheel by some stiffening of the rim to spoke joint. What's the chance of breaking a spoke now and after the seal starts acting as a damper? If a spoke breaks what are the chances of this causing a rapid tyre failure? Like I say, it's just the engineer in me that likes to see FMEA's and the like on safety critical items. Good luck to the innovators out there :thumbup1: Andy |
All good points Andy that make theoretical sense to me. You do wonder why matey has recoded front 21s failing - could be less tyre mass to absorb impacts (compared to a chunkier rear) and longer spokes like you say. But the only spokes I've ever broken were on the rear which takes much more load in an overland rather than racing scenario.
I do wonder about the loss of spoke-tensioning/repairing ability with the 3M method. May be fine on some fat highway cruiser but we're all about crap roads in poor countries and off roading with big loads. For years I always fitted my bikes with HD spokes on decent rims (if necessary) but on the last trip a custom HD re-spoke made things worse on mine (the other bikes - same models & load - had no breakages). This is why for real world overlanding I think I might prefer the Tubliss liners - they are easy to reverse. Ch |
So Chris,
Have you done it yet? I am so curious it is killing me!! (wow i am such a child :() |
Hi Xander, just got back and getting round to a Maroc trip soon. My bike is 21/17 so may run a Tubliss in the front and glue up the rear (which I plan to convert to 18 later anyway).
What could possibly go wrong? Ch Later: no Tubliss cores in any useful size in the UK yet so will go for the much cheaper 3M option |
why bother? theres nothing stopping you putting a tubeless tyre on a spoked wheel with a tube inside. i have sports tyres on my XT600E and they work just fine with tubes inside.
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why bother?
I'm not sure you get it Davsoto. It's not about tyre choice or radials, it's about running tubeless tyres without tubes because tubeless is widely considered to be better.
Ch |
dont see why chris, but whatever floats your boat........
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THIS is the point of Tube less.
As noted, |
And don't carry huge spare tubes and heavy tire levers.
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If i was to seal a rim, i would use Sikoflex marine sealant. First buff the aluminum with a stainless wire wheel to give the sealant some tooth, apply sealant and let it cure. Sikoflex will stick to aluminum permanantly, so this is a one way trip! Remember that the space where the spokes go is required for removing the tire, so your sealant could easily become damaged if your not careful. |
... was told that they have been having problems with the TKC's sealing onto the bead..
Thanks for reminder as I'm about to try this. I presume you were using a TL TKC front, not an old TT or Tube Type (easily missed when ordering as I just found out)? Not that I'm sure what the difference in bead surfaces might be but I imagine the carcass of a TL tyre is better made to deal with plugs: here a rear TL TKC is 30% more expensive than a TT in the same size which one hopes is reassuring. i could never find a leak (soapy water) and all blow-outs were quite instant. Truth is, i'm really not sure what failed, the sealant or the tire. Would the marginally bigger diametre of a 21" make more centrifugal force to help delaminate it if it was not cured/stuck on well? Though would not tyre pressure hold it in place [did i mention this earlier?]? Even if it delaminated all at once would enough air leak out via the nipples to cause and instant blow out as you say? If i was to seal a rim, i would use Sikoflex marine sealant. First buff the aluminum with a stainless wire wheel to give the sealant some tooth, apply sealant and let it cure. Sikoflex will stick to aluminum permanantly, so this is a one way trip! Found 'Sikaflex Sealant 291'. Looks like '3M 5200' but 30% cheaper. Remember that the space where the spokes go is required for removing the tire, so your sealant could easily become damaged if your not careful. I would put the rim tape back over the sealant and/or wrap on some duct tape. Ch |
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1.find nail or screw, pull out 2.ignore 2-5 6.ride away |
An important point that I think is missed here, or at least I didn't see it:
Tubeless RIMS are a different design than tube-type. Tubeless rims normally have a small "safety" ridge - it's small (2-3mm or so high) it's easily missed if you're not looking. It's just inside where the tire bead sits. It's positioned and designed to help hold the tire on the rim more securely - and is also why they're so hard to break the bead on. Without this ridge, if you have a flat on a tube type rim, the tire is more likely to flop around and break the bead - which with a tube is no biggie, it'll just pop back on, but with tubeless means instant and total deflation. As a result, I NEVER recommend converting a tube-type rim to tubeless. Also it's quite easy to damage a tubeless tire so much it won't hold air, but can still be ridden ok with a tube installed inside, so you still need to carry tubes. You can see the ridge here: Welcome to PS1000LE.NET I AM a big fan of tubeless tires/rims. I have one on the front of my bike, (whole new forks, wheel and rim) but sadly not on the back - not possible. |
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But if you get and IN And OUT puncture ... away quickly.
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A rear flat can ruin your whole day!
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tubeless conversion
Tubeless rims normally have a small "safety" ridge - it's small (2-3mm or so high) it's easily missed if you're not looking.
Bikes equipped from the factory with tubed tyres have that ridge too on the rear wheel. My 86' Tagasako-shod Tenere did and so does my current Italian-rimmed Tenere - and Triumphs too as Patrick points out. It makes hand changing and mounting a rear chore. Without this ridge, if you have a flat on a tube type rim, the tire is more likely to flop around and break the bead - which with a tube is no biggie, it'll just pop back on, but with tubeless means instant and total deflation. It'll pop back on once you repair it of course but surely - depending on the cause - deflation can be instant and total whatever the tyre? And I hear that TL goes down slower and more controllably than tubed. The knack is in remounting a TL tyre without a tube but check my link below, with a strap, a pump and maybe some soap it can be done even on a lip-rim. An electric pump is all the better but a bloke on 'youtube' no less did it with a stirrup pump at 22 psi! Also, it seems not all rims are the same, even among tube type rims... some bikes (mine included) .... will hold the bead very well using the stock tube type wheel. This is true. Some rims get on much better with certain tyres. Anyway, thanks for the ideas and interest to my initial query everyone. Ch November 27 - 4000 miles later - read my conclusions on the link below: Adventure Motorcycling - spoke motorcycle wheel tubeless conversion (XTZ 660) or here now: http://adventuremotorcyclinghandbook...ubeless-tyres/ |
Tubeless spoked wheels!
Hi Chris
There are some wheels on the market called "Alpina" that are designed for Supermoto racing. They are spoked, t/less and mainly 17 inch front and rear but cost about £1200:00 sterling a pair. I'm not sure who the uk importer is but I'm sure a quick search on google and you'd find them. It would be worth a phone call to Central Wheel Components in Coleshill as I've found them to be very helpfull in the past : 01675 462264 As for adapting a normal set of spoked wheels, for safety reasons I wouldn't go there. Maybe ok riding around town but for any type of overland trip??? I'm sure if it had been done sucessfully there would be a product/kit available for everyone. How about lacing a set of Bmw rims onto a custom made hub? just a thought Kev |
Hot Melt glue and crossed fingers? :confused1:
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Looks like the NueTech Tubliss is readily available in 18", a few guys over on Advrider are running it. Not sure about the 21".
Would be cool not to get any more pinch flats, as well as leaving those heavy spare tubes at home. |
Maybe in a year...
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I got this reply from Jeff Douglas at the company last week: "Thanks for your e-mail & interest. At this time our TUbliss inserts are NOT D.O.T. approved, so we cannot recommend in any way for On-Road use. We will be looking into on-road certification early next year & hope to know more at that time." I'll be checking back then to see; although if a 21" shows up I might try them off-road in the meantime. (I have 2 sets of wheels.) Stephan |
Non-DOT certified doesn't mean they won't work on the street, in fact some of the guys are reporting that they are doing just that with no problems. This is more of a certification (read $$$) issue.
Apparently even normal tubes are not certified by DOT, it has just never been challenged in a court (can't confirm if this is true). |
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Meanwhile, I'm happy to wait and hopefully try them closer to home, on/off road with knobbies. Stephan |
Stephan,
I can absolutely understand, that would be critical for me as well. We'll have to wait a bit more for some long term reliability reports to come in. But just thinking about it, I don't see how road use would be a problem. Unlike mousse, which heats up - and subsequently disintegrates - at high speeds due to rubbing on the tire wall, Tubliss actually creates less heat than a normal tube. There is nothing to rub after all. Even if you have a sudden blow out somehow, the Tubliss should hold the sidewall in place similar to the special bead on real tubeless rims. The review by the MX magazine even mentioned that they were able to finish a race with an empty tire (not sure how that happened in the first place, though). This is the current thread on Advrider: Nutech TuBliss system - ADVrider I'll post any new findings here as well. Lukas |
I also just read that they have shipped some 21" as well, the guy on Advrider has them on both ends.
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To bee honest I don’t see the point in the TuBliss-system when it comes to traveling (for me).
If the sidewall goes, you dent a rim or you get a flat you can’t plug you still need a tube. You also need a pump that can handle 110 PSI, mine don’t. For me it looks like a system with the weakness of tubeless rims with more parts that can fail. |
Some good points AliBaba. In case of a big cut on the tire or dented rim I would be smart to carry at least one spare tube with you, I agree on that.
However I think the chance of denting a rim goes down a lot, since the sidewalls are always held in place. Most road bicycle pumps would have no problems with 110psi, I have had my Topeak Morph that high for example (I believe it's rated for 160psi). Weighs less than 200 grams, too. Since you don't have to make any permanent changes, I don't see a disadvantage to starting a trip with the Tubliss system - provided it holds up to high speed street use. The chances of having a normal flat go down or you can repair it easily with a tubeless kit. Should you have more serious damage to tire or rim you can still swap in the spare tube. |
Bit late to the discussion, but for what it is worth I ran an assortment of tubeless tyres last year during a 20,000km ride around Australia on my 1200 GSA.
I tried the TKC 80's and thought that they were pretty good on and off road, though in the Northern Territory where the speed limit is 130km/h they were a little wobbly on the black top... actually prefer the Metzeler Karoo 2 - about the same as the TKC's on the dirt but slightly better on the road, probably on account of the tread layout. Depending on the terrain I would get around 6000km out of a rear and about twice that from the front. Weight of the bike and gear probably wore it down faster than a lighter bike. In terms of how fast a puncture hits, I had a couple out in the Kimberley where the temperatures were in the high 30's (Celsius that is... no idea what that is in old talk). I have a built in tyre pressure gauge so I could actually see how long it took for the tyres to drop. I measured that the rear went from 2.7bar to 2.5bar over a period of about 100km in 36 degree heat at an average speed of around 120km/h. When I did stop to take a look at it, there was a nail in there so no doubt that slowed down the speed at which the air was lost, but I know know my last nail-induced puncture on a tubed tyre it took about 5kms until it was totally flat. |
fyi, more discussion and insights on this topic here.
I was about to fit Tubliss to my current project bike (spoked 19s) but realise (or have been reminded) that the safety rim lip is more important for 'kerb hits' than anything else. Also, just found this link and think the way this guy did it - individually sealing each nipple - is better than the method I used in 2008. He's run over 100,000 on spoked road bikes like this. Ch |
Since this thread was started the practise of either getting regular spoked rims sealed in various ways or bikes coming with stock TL spoke rims has caught on.
I've been keeping up with it all over that time. The latest is here |
My tubeless experience
Hi, I just signed up specifically because of this thread. I did a Loctite 290 and 3M 4412 sealing job on my 2010 Bonneville T100 last year and it certainly loses air much slower than it used to do with tubes in. The Loctite is remarkable in its wicking qualities: it seems to fly up the thread like a ferret up a drainpipe. The 3M tape is the stickiest thing I've encountered in my 66 years: it would probably adhere to melting ice <irony>, so the Loctite probably isn't necessary.In addition to the advriders thread, there's also a thread on Triumphrat forums.
I managed to break the beads easily with a doorway and a couple of bits of 4" x 2", and I inflated one after conversion easily with a petrol station air line. BTW I found the tyre professionals had managed to fold over and big-time crease my inner tube inside one of the tyres. Not good. Thank you for not going Bang! The presence or lack of a "safety" bead on the rims doesn't worry me overly: I plan to convert the Himalayan after next week's Morocco trip. It seems to make sense that a sudden deflation on a tubeless conversion should be no worse than a sudden deflation on a tubed tyre: in any case I'm old and have to die sometime<irony>. I'd be prepared to listen to reasoned arguments against this statement. Happy Trails! |
Thanks for your update. I'll probably be trying similar on a lipped Giant alloy 21 rim from CWS.
I was never keen on it - now I know why. My Tubliss failed in very much the middle of nowhere - on top of my Michelin TPMS packing up a few days earlier. Don't know why with either - just the curse of the desert I suppose. 250 clicks back to the coast at 30mph. Amazed it stayed on. Could have gone faster but wanted to keep it cool. About to find out if my Him tyre has them (knackered Tubliss core may have helped) but that is why the safety lip is a good idea. Had a similar need to ride a while on a TL flat in Nov on a 700GS. |
Tubeless in UK or France?
Hi
Does anyone know of a company that can convert my X-Challenge wheels to tubeless? (21" and 18") I have seen the DIY solutions but I would rather have it done by a professional. Thanks. |
In France try the BARTubeless dealer (who sends wheels to Italy).
https://www.bartfactory.com/bartubel...rance/?lang=en Or go to the factory if you are near Milan. In the UK, CWC do both BARTubeless (sent to Italy) and their own Airtight vulcanised band. It's not easily found on their website; start here: https://www.central-wheel.co.uk/serv...nversions.html I've tried/have both. Good idea to add Slime or similar; easier to spot leaks. TPMS is also a good idea. More info and pics here: https://adventure-motorcycling.com/2...l-rim-sealing/ I believe XCh rims have the required safety lip. |
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When a tube tire deflates suddenly from a big hole or tear in the tube, it is almost certain to break away from the bead and flop side to side - uncontrollably. DAMHIK... :censored::censored: I am adamantly against creating a tubeless system without that safety bead. Why? Simple - that bead is there to keep the tire on the rim. Without the bead, and with a tube, under great force, the tire can peel away from the rim a tiny bit, but fortunately the tube pushes it back. Without the tube, it will deflate instantly. That's WHY the safety bead was invented in the first place. I vote for safety beads on ALL wheels. :) |
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Neither BART or CWC will do the job without the lip, afaik. Only problem is it can make roadside tyre removal and remounting hard work. All the more reason to convert to plug-&-go TL. |
Not a stupid question.
Many times I have looked for such rims used because the price new is several hundred pounds. The list of bikes with those rims is linked from here: https://adventure-motorcycling.com/2...spoked-wheels/ They exist in China but you must buy 200. And they must be the same number of spokes as the stock hub. Normal is 36 but BMW use 40 on the big GSs. Cast wheels (always TL) are another option, but only in 19 inch or less. I managed to fit a cast 19er from an XVS950 on to my XSR 700. Now that Airtight and BART can seal the original rim (if lipped) with no wheel building required, it makes it easier and cheaper. However lipped in 21 inch is quite rare (I think XCh has it). I found some Excel 21s in Italy and bought a pair for a rainy day. |
Tubed tyres to tubeless
I was seriously considering changing tubes to tubeless on my ‘16 Africa Twin. Watched a few vids and all looked good. Rang Lightfoot Engineering in Melbourne- tyre and rim guru (my description, not his) and asked his opinion as to whether it was a good idea. Answer - No! He said that he doesn’t recommend it and has seen various issues arising from the conversion. I think he now refuses to do them. He spoke also about the BMW rims with offset spokes and said some of those rims ( depending on the bike’s year model) were not without problems either. He suggested that putting in bicycle tube sealant in through the valve of a tube ( if using them) adds a slight safety inclusion, hopefully creating a slower leak rather than a fast leak as can happen when tubes blow. Be careful of thickish tubes- added heat generation. It’s tubes for me. If I had a BM with the modern rim, I’d probably use tubeless though.
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Your tyre guru's reaction is not uncommon from someone in the tyre and wheel trade but not offering this service.
Or are you saying he did it, but stopped? And if yes, what technique did he use? I can see if it was unreliable, he'd have to stop letting customers down if he could not find a better way. DIY, and you are your own boss. And yes, squeezing sealant into the tube is commonly done. Bottles of Slime or similar come with a Schrader nozzle to make it easy. I do it to all my tubed bikes; for a few quid it's a no-brainer. But I now hear from others and have found myself Slime etc can soften and delaminate the sealant. Won't use it now. If it's leaking a bit it has not been done right. Try again until it does. Slime/etc is a short cut that may bite back on some sealants. https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...02/wrslime.jpg BMW have had problem wheels (cracking alloys) since I first started biking, but what are the actual problems with BMW outboard spoke rims? Is it to do with the spokes or the TL seal? I certainly feel that outboard spokes (750GS below) are in a more vulnerable position in rocky terrain, and heavy bikes ridden hard or carelessly at too low psi or on soft-wall tyres will damage rims for sure. A hard-riding KTM big-twin mate ruined his stock wheels. Matters are over-complicated by attempting to seal a 'sieve' when a perfectly good bowl is sat right alongside! Cast wheel does the job perfectly. People will now jump in, parroting the 'spokes are better off-road' myth. On a 110-kilo KDX200, absolutely. But on a GS12 or AT or Pan Am at way more than double the weight...? It's an unfortunate clash of looks/marketing (spokes = rufty-tufty off-road) vs safety (TL). The whole 'adventure motorcycling' phenomenon in a nutshell ;-) You can add cost too: OE TL spoked rims using flanges or outboard cost way more. Talking of ATwins, I DIY sealed the rear of my 2018 for a long desert trip with no complaints. Sat for a year and a half, it still held air. https://adventure-motorcycling.com/2...-for-tubeless/ https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...02/at-tub2.jpg A 21-er upfront has historically been trickier to DIY; I would sooner get it professionally sealed with Airtight (see link below) As you will know, the 1100 AT now has TLs all-round because inner tubes are an anachronism. When did regular cars last use inner tubes? The great thing is, converting to TL is a choice. For a regular riding around where you can call in a recovery if you can't fix your own flat, why bother. The crux is to do it well (link above) or get it done professionally. I bet someone in Ozzie is offering such services. For a travel bike operating alone out in the sticks, autonomy is important. The ability to fix a roadside flat and be rolling again in 10 minutes adds peace of mind in the face of the many other challenges on the road. Pages and pages on this interesting topic here. |
My experience with the Outex kit, installed on stock rims from a 2008 Suzuki DR650.
Installed late 2021 @ 38k miles on the odometer, with minor prep of the inner wheel/rim surface: smoothing the rough weld seam and cleaning with mineral spirits. Followed the instructions from the Outex kit. I run pressures in the mid-30s and don't adjust for offroad. Riding environment is southern Arizona USA, high-speed (for what it is) freeway burns and offroad day trips on fairly tame 2-track. Zero issues, zero leaks or punctures. Tires are Dunlop Trailmax Missions in stock sizes. Mid-April of 2024, I departed for a RTW ride from Arizona, bike shod with new Trailmax Missions, pressures at 35 front/39 rear cold. About 90 lbs of travel gear between all of the bags and boxes. 200lbs of rider including gear. 6.5 gallon fuel tank. I have a TPMS installed (Sykik Rider from Amazon) with fresh batteries installed in the sensors. I made it to Islamabad in early July, having lost about 5 lbs of pressure in both tires...I didn't need to add air at all. Riding conditions were pretty much a bit of everything: Primarily tarmac at moderate speeds, with some gnarly offroad in the Balkans and pavement of varying qualities as I went through eastern Turkey, Kurdistan and Pakistan (especially the southern part). At about 11k miles on these tires, there is still about 15% of usable tread left (eyeball estimate...we all know the last bit goes away faster than you'd like/expect.) Summary: The Outex kit has treated my very well, particularly coupled with the Trailmax Mission tires. |
I've found a great solution to the spoked tubeless wheels conundrum.
Buy a bike with OEM spoked TL ;-)) https://overlanders-handbook2.com/wp...4/08/450mt.jpg |
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I'm not going the Outex route - but a version of. I have the correct tape 3M Extreme Sealing Tape 4411N 75mm wide together with sealing tyre valves and some silicon rubber for true belts and braces. I have printed off some covers for the nipple on the end of my spokes on my 3D printer so that I will be able to adjust the spokes without disturbing the tape (the nipple spins under the cover). The hold up is just finding time to do it - I seem to be busy the whole time at the moment. I look back at the hassle caused by my punctures in the tubes last year and I don't want the same again - I can seal a leak and insert plug in 20 minutes - less if I don't if stop for a cup of tea part way through. I may do a video of the process to show that even a muppet can doo it. Or not as the case may be! |
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How did you get on..? Any advice before I dive in? Is there a video? Cheers |
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There are some videos on You Tube - search for "sealing spoked motorcycle wheels for tubeless". Essentially the process I am going to use is: 1 ensure that the rim is suitable for tubeless tyres - does it have a safety bead to prevent the tyre slipping into the centre channel 2 the prepare rim so that the tape I am going to apply sticks really, really well - the technical term is "it sticks like shit to a blanket" 3 have nipple covers - this is to allow the spoke to be adjusted without disturbing the sealing tape. I have used a 3D printer to get the nipple covers the right size for my wheels (I think!). 4 thoroughly degrease the rim so that there is no risk of an area with poor adnesion 5 apply the tape in the centre of the channel over the top of the nipple covers starting away from the valve hole and ensuring that there are no ripples in the tape that could allow air to escape. End by overlapping the tape by, say, 100-125mm. 6 use a roller to apply pressure all over the tape so that there is no route for air to escape 7 the tape should be only in the channel so this may require any excess to be trimmed off without disturbing the tape / rim bond 8 fit the tyre valve - I will use a little silicon sealant to ensure a good seal 9 put the tyre back on and inflate - personally I don't think I will bother putting the wheel back onto the bike until I know that the seal is good at holding pressure for a couple of weeks or more. Having the spare bike is helpful here! 10 balance the wheel 11 refit the wheel (and take a battery tyre inflator plus a sealing system for the now inevitable punctures) The single most important step is the first one - ensuring that your rims are suitable for tubeless tyres and make sure that the tyres you fit are tubeless! There is a good video on You Tube here. Once I get it done I will report back |
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