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Why are there not more bikes with tubeless tyres for worry-free adventure touring?
If you get a puncture in a tubeless tyre you can be back on the road within 20 minutes. Find the puncture spot, ream it out, insert a mushroom plug, and reinflate the tyre. Magic. Last year I took my old F650GS twin on one of the Moroccan trips instead of the Tenere for exactly this reason, and sure enough I got a puncture. But it was easily sealed as shown below.
http://www.morocco-knowledgebase.net/tim/tubed_plug.jpg However if get a puncture in a tubed tyre it involves removing the wheel, taking the tyre off, swapping out the tube (I would never try to mend on the piste), refitting the tyre and putting the whole caboodle back together again. And if you have a Tenere you'll know that the rims are deep and taking tyres off and on is difficult. And if you don't have a centre stand... To complicate matters I tend to travel with thick HD tubes with normal tubes as a spare, so once I reach civilisation I get the HD tube vulcanised (see photo below), and then go through the whole palava again of removing the wheel and tube to refit the HD tube. http://www.morocco-knowledgebase.net...canisation.jpg (praying helps the vulcanisation process) Typically if your bike has alloy wheels it has tubeless tyres, if it has spokes it has tubed tyres. But this isn't always the case. BMW's 1200GS Adventure and KTM's 1190 Adventure have spoked wheels that allow tubeless 19-in fronts and 17-in rears, and KTM's 1190 Adventure R and BMW's HP2 Enduro have spoked tubeless 21-in fronts, and the KTM has an 18-in rear. So the technology definitely exists. KTM's 2014 690 Supermoto R has tubeless tyres with (rather natty metallic orange!) spoked rims, so why can't the 690 Enduro R have the same? Or am I missing something here? Apart from the ease of puncture repairs there are other advantages to tubeless. Saving 600g of unsprung weight per wheel is supposed to be a really big deal (and more like 1000g if you are using HD tubes). Also you can run low pressures without the need for rim locks as the valve isn't connected to a tube that could otherwise move around and tear off. But I hardly ever run low pressures in Morocco on tubed tyres as the pistes are sand one minute and rocks the next, and if you are have tubes you run the risk of getting a 'snake bite' puncture where the tube is pinched between the rim and the rocks. It seems the only alternatives are to have your own tubeless wheels built by someone like Alpina at a cost in excess of £1200, go for the Tubliss system at about £200, or fit mousses at around £200. Tubliss has a reputation for slow air leaks and I would worry that mousses tend to wear too quickly for an extended tour, and it's difficult to get replacements in remote places, so neither seem ideal. I've tried slime (inside HD tubes) yet I still had a puncture that it couldn't seal, so I ended up in a real slimy mess changing the tube. So what I can't understand (maybe I'm missing something?) is why more manufacturers don't fit tubeless rims as standard or at least offer them as an option. Can anyone enlighten me? |
tubeless tyre
Hi Tim,
You are dead right,it is absolutely easy.I always carry a little slime compressor,not the liquid green stuff and a set of plugs.Here in Oz,outside the beaten track,punctures can happen easily,a central stand is helpful and off you go in no time.Wouldn't go without them. Sorry,but I can't enlighten you any further,but need some of it quite often. Cheers M.R. |
Tough prooblem. Many cast tubless wbeels not tough
Enough. One new entry in spoked tubless is yam tenere 12. Any feed back on how they hold up to big hits? My vstrom wheels were tough but i did dent them. Nice to see you were able to put a pllug in that knobly! |
The real problem with tubeless arises when the tyres leak air between tyre and wheel rim and this seems to happen when the wheel is alloy. In a genuine million miles or more driving cars I only ever had this happen during a 2 month period when I had alloy wheels on a car. I have never had this happen with steel rims.
In about 150,000 miles on motorcycle I have had two punctures on tubed wheels, both times it was the rear wheel. once in 1962 and the second time on teh way to Poland in 2010 In 3 years and about 12,000 miles I had rim seals fail on my BMW tubeless tyres, several times. I ended up running them with tubes. As there was no other fix to try o except maybe buy new wheels. This has been my experience, I may be against the flow here but there you are. |
All boxer GSes have rims for tubeless tires fitted.
There are several nice points with tubeless but most of the times I ended up with running tubes. Mainly because: - There are few real offroad-tyres suited for tubeless - On an extended trip you might need to run tubes anywhere because of problems with rim/tyre - It's difficult (but not impossible) to seat the bead on tubeless with a small handpump On the other hand I would not go on a trip without a centre stand, tubeless or not. So I went the other way and converted my tubeless rim to tube-type :confused1: |
WHY? humm
Could it be because of the availability of:
An inner tube will also enable you to repair a cut tyre. If you have some of those special spoked wheels which don't require a tube ( and you're not carrying means to repair) then you go and slice a tyre- you're stranded. To alleviate your worries Tim, perhaps the answer is for you to practice more until you've built up confidence in your ability to fix flats and remove the worry? |
I doubt Tim is short of practice :rofl:
Bikers like to bang on about semi-pointless minor technical detail like the "Soul of a V-twin" but honestly boys, its mostly fashion. Tubed or tubeless, for the time difference over the life of a bike there is no real difference. Now the look of the bike in the show room; that sells as surely as not putting red shoes with a green handbag. Why do Moto Guzzi offer both in the same range? 1. to gather the odd sale from techno nit-pickers and 2. to make sure both buyers of red shoes and green handbags come through the showroom door. I'd choose tubeless in a free vote but no way would I spend anything to convert from tubed to sealed-with-shower-and-bath-gloop. Nor will I be buying any certain brand of bike to get one or the other. I've had 5 punctures in the last 50000 miles, four tubed one tubeless. Andy |
"Adventure" and "worry-free" are two terms that don't go together. :nono:
They really don't. :scooter: Ask Ted Simon, Austin Vince, Grant Johnson, et al... ?c? |
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Sounds like you've never tried changing the rear tyre on a Tenere. Chris Scott writes about the problem at Sealing spoked rims to run tubeless tyres | Adventure Motorcycling Handbook Although running tubes, the Tenere has a tubeless-style safety rim. I've had three rear punctures and two front punctures on the (tubed) Tenere in 50000km. On my (tubed) XR400R I had two punctures in 30000km. None so far on the (tubed) KTMs. But in more than 300000km on tubeless tyres on 1200GS, GSA and F650GS twin, I've had just one puncture. |
The Tiger Explorer XC has spoked wheels with tubeless tyres. Guessing Triumph had to compete with the GS.
The 800XC still has tubed however. Hopefully theyll give the option in a later model. |
Problems exist with both tube and tubeless systems. No prefect system really.
Tubeless negatives: Cut tire (you'll need a tube to continue) bust rim (no seal, tire won't inflate) Cracked rim (can happen with some cast wheels) Weight (tubeless spoked wheels can be heavy) If bead ever does break (unlikely) .. can be a PITA to get it to inflate. Tube negatives: PITA removing wheel, breaking down tire/changing tube, remounting. Packing spare tubes (but really required with BOTH systems) Patch kit that actually works Instant Air loss with big puncture (this can be dangerous) Comment on SLIME or Ride-On or other products that go in your tube/tire before you get a flat: It's true ... they don't always prevent a flat ... but often DO, especially if you run over a small staple, nail or cactus thorn. The sealer may not always 100% stop the leak ... but often can slow it down. This can allow you to ride ahead to a convenient place to do a repair. But the MAJOR reason I run Slime (have done over 10 years) is to mitigate instant, catastrophic air loss. This is most worrisome on front tire when riding at speed on paved roads. Anyone ever had a flat when leaned way over in a corner at 70 mph with a tubed tire? :eek3: The rear can also "step out" if it goes instantly flat. All these things can kill you if you ride fast. A loaded bike is worse. What SLIME, Ride-On or other products can help with ... is to at least slow down air loss ... giving the rider a warning and time to get safely off the road. A few SLIME tips: Some say it's messy. Did you know it's water soluble and rinses off clean in seconds? Don't try to patch a tube with SLIME in it ... unless you have lots of time. Most times the SLIME will work the patch loose. It can be done ... but requires "technique". Same goes with Tubeless tire plugs. If you have SLIME in your tire, the plug with slowly come out. It may hold for a while but may leak air or slowly work its way out. Happened to me on my 1050 Tiger. I got home riding 300 miles (airing up every 2 hours), then removed tire, washed out SLIME, remounted ... all good with new Plug installed. Breaking down tires is an Art. Good tools and technique a must, along with good strength. Some tires are tougher than others to break the bead on. Bring tools! When you think you're good at breaking a bead and changing a tube ... remember that ISDE guys can do it ALL in One Minute 30 seconds. (on average). Includes removing wheel, and reinstalling it. :taz: |
I've run both..
Tubed + simple, reliable. .. can be made to work with a large hole in the tyre, or a cracked rim ... or both. - Time taken to fix. Your on tour .. time is not an issue. Relax. Have a tea. It is a bit much in the hot sun though. Tubeless + easy and quick to fix a normal flat. - Must have tubeless type tyres. - Difficult to change tyres - Must have back up tube for emergencies (rim dent, tyre rip etc) - if you run too low a pressure the tyre can burp and loose even more pressure. ------------------ Rate of flats .. I suspect the tyre has a large part to play here .. tubeless tyres are usually heavier and thicker than the tube type tyres .. and thus get less flats just from their increased thickness and density. If you want to compare then run the same tyres with the same bikes riders etc .. one with a tube the other without and see. =================== Tube type rims ....Yes the 'newer' type rims have a significant lip .. older rims don't have it and are much easier to change. The newer ones are supposed to be better if you have a blow out. Your choice - keep the supposed increase in safety .. or remove some of the lip to make it easier to get the tube out. I remove about 200mm length of one the lips opposite the valve. |
Beemer, Super Ten and Triumph (and others?) all have tubeless. Reckon it's down to cost mostly- bet those cross spoke wheels cost a bomb to make, but they aren't half strong.
One thing- are tubed tyres usually crossplies? If they are, then that is a good reason to go tubeless and enjoy radials instead. I hate crossplies. As for fixing- do I want to remove a wheel, then the tyre and fanny about with tubes when it's 45 degrees in the shade? Do I hell, 5 minutes and a plug in a tubeless is my bag. I once had a rear tyre on an XJ900 sliced by a flint in France and the guy just put a patch on the inside of the tyre:nono: Got me home though.... |
My two pence worth...
There is no doubt that a SMALL puncture is much easier to fix on a tubeless tyre. Effortless.... And if I were road riding in western countries (where spares and repairs are easy) then I'd go for tubeless all day long.. However, there are CONSIDERABLE drawbacks to tubeless wheels on a motorcycle when over-landing. Cast rims are far more fragile. They have no 'give' and 'flex' that you get in a spoked rim. Those spokes are a latices of shock absorbers. They don't help with off-roading at all. More weight and harsher ride... This can lead to cracks.. If you crack or break a tubeless wheel you are well and truly stuck. If you're lucky you will find someone who can TIG weld your wheel whilst keeping the correct profile and bead in place. Good luck with that though. It's a specialist job. Snap a spoke or ding your wheel and unless you're REALLY unlucky, you can keep on rolling. If you split a tyre on a tubeless wheel you are also screwed. You aren't repairing that one. No amount of slime and wedges are going to help you. I put a 2" gash in my rear tyre in Ethiopia. With a tube, I was able to ride another 60 miles to a town where I patched the tyre and carried on another 200 miles before I could replace it. If I did that with a tubeless tyre, Id probably still be on that remote village road now or hundreds of pounds worse off trying to get a tyre shipped in. Availability of tyres are DRAMATICALLY increased with tubes as well. You can almost run anything... This is also a huge factor on a long trip. So yeah, fixing punctures in tubes is a pain in the arse. But at least I CAN fix it and get moving again. And all this "BMW spoked wheels are great" is cack. Yes you can fix a small puncture like normal tubeless but those tyres are VERY difficult to change if you have to. You see 'GS Adventure' Riders with spare tyres that they intend to use as spares if they gash theur tyres... Even with the big professional tyre machines at work, it's a struggle... They can take 120 PSI to re-seat too. Even with plenty of tyre soap.... I wouldn't even bother to try and change one by hand. Fools errand unless I was absolutely forced to try. Another tip... If you're a GS rider, DO NOT run RDC pressure sensors. They are the flimsiest things in the world. They snap off just by looking at them and make tyre changing even more difficult. There is a special way to change tyres with them on a machine so you don't destroy them. Someone with no experience of them will probably tear them off on a tyre machine.. I've lost count of the amount of bikes that end up at our place on recovery trucks after the poor owner snapped off the aluminium valve stem with very little force. You can't repair them and you need to re-valve the wheel. Try that on the side of the motorway... All so you can see your tyre pressures on your dash board.... doh |
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Agree that alloy wheels aren't up to the job. |
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That's A LOT harder with a tubeless tyre as the rim has a much deeper bead and the tyres generally have a stiffer side wall. They take more PSI to correctly seat too... Give it a go bier |
And yet, and yet... There are all those GSs running around the world and people seem to manage. My last puncture was the one on the XJ mentioned earlier and that was 20 years ago. Must get out more...
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Not sure why Tube type tires do not use steel belts :confused1: ... but most don't. Most 600 class dual sport bikes use tube type tires, but some riders convert to tubeless by sealing the spokes and installing a tubeless valve. (yes, can be done) or use tubeless type rims to start. For ALL road, ALL the time, tubeless gets my vote too ... but that's not on the menu' for me. I like exploring dirt roads and crossing Deserts. I'm done trying to Horse around a heavy monster off road that can squish me like a Grape. Too much like work. Even a 600 is work, but doable. Another solution we used on our Enduro race bikes (AMA Enduro) was to use an old inner tube as a liner for extra protection. Adds a layer. Doing this I got only ONE flat in 8 years of competition ... and that was a front tire (with NO liner!) which I continued to ride to the finish of the event flat. (Metzeler dirt tires are super stiff) I would consider using a liner on rear tire ... as the rear is the bugger. Fronts are a 10 to 15 minute job most times. Easy. Quote:
Ted's pic earlier in the thread shows an improvised vulcanizer. That is exactly how they do patches in Mexico as well .... minus the Noon Prayer. :Beach: Often times in the 3rd (or less developed) world there are plenty of tire repair places in small towns or villages. True in much of Mexico, Cent. America, also true in Thailand and Cambodia. So if you get a flat and you're not too far, often you can ride flat to town for repair. Have a cold beer beer... while they do ALL the work. (with you watching near by). Tres dolarles por favor! :thumbup1: I've done this MANY times. (for myself and riding buddies) |
Limited experience (Former brakes engineer) but I would guess that tube tyres are cross ply to reduce the amount of wire which stores heat, reduce the weight (as the tube is adding more) and make the sidewall pliable enough to get on and off with levers.
Don't forget there are manufacturers that go for the worst possible combination too. Tubeless shape rim drilled through for spokes and running a tube. You get the heat and repair hassle of the tube but keep the need to find a bead breaker. All about getting you into their boutiques as a Sunday morning alternative to Starbucks. I have seen a BMW G650 stranded with exactly this issue, can't patch it, can't plug it, call the RAC and get hauled off to go shopping. Andy |
I've never bothered with carrying inner tubes or stuff like that on the trips I've done (just a plug kit and a small compressor), but as I'm planning to go further into deepest darkest Africa next time, has anyone had any experience with those Motion Pro bead breaker tyre levers. Seem like a pretty good idea- I see no real reason why you can't change a radial on a BMW cross spoke rim- the worst tyres I've ever come across to change are Bridgestone BT45 crossplies on Laverda Jota rims- the well just ain't deep enough and damn, those tyres are stiff.
BeadPro Tire Bead Breaker and Lever Tool Set | Motion Pro |
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If you practice a bit it should go easy. I have removed and installed tyres on R80/1100/R1200 with two 20cm levers and a small handpump. It's not fun but it's not a problem. Some pics in post 4: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-breaker-27763 Quote:
The tubeless shape is smart, it's called safety-lip for a reason :nono: Quote:
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A couple friends I ride with have them ... but no road side flats yet. I'm thinking of getting them myself. The stuff is actually tested! Lots of tires can be tough to break down, not just the Bridgestones. But as mentioned above: Practice! It's all technique! Once you've seen a pro ISDE guy attack a tire change you'll never look upon tire repair the same ever again. It's a violent process. (wear boots, gloves and knee pads) :taz: |
If you want to run on deflated tires, i.e. on sand, then you can quickly find yourself in heaps of trouble if you are riding tubeless. With low pressure you risk loosing the remaining pressure quickly or even instantly... Also, riding with low pressure will break down the sealing capabilities of your tire. With innertubes, this is not an issue.
Now, if I wasn't to deflate the tires with any significance, I would surely conscider tubeless. |
Tired?
Perhaps I am out of my depth here, but I ride an NX400 Honda Falcon and have done so for more than 55,000 K through 8 South American Countries, currently bike is in Colombia and I am in Arizona due to rosa del desiertos fractured toes not a punctured tire.
I have had several punctures until I spotted a motorcycle tire called "Scorpion" tubeless it is either a Pirelli or Michelin I did not pay any attention after I noted how tough it looked - ;) I just instructed my tire guy to put a tube in it, an off I rode. I like the new found traction and no punctures thus far, 1 yeah vote for tubes in a tubeless tire. xfiltrate |
You may be a bit out your depth ... :helpsmilie: in fact, you can't run tubeless on your Honda. Why? It's got spoked wheels ... as you may have noticed! :innocent: A tubeless tire is fine ... but will need a tube in it to be air tight.
Many many bikes can use a "Tubeless" tire on a wheel with spokes. But of course, they MUST RUN A TUBE. doh Some tires come in BOTH "TT" (tube type) and TTL (tubeless) type tires. Get it? A wheel with spokes is NOT air tight, so will leak air even if the tubeless tire seals against the bead (which it may not depending on style or rim) Am I making any sense here? So, even though you've got a "tubeless" tire, you must run a tube with it. Make sense? Option: Some riders "seal" their spoked wheels to convert them to tubeless wheels. You seal up spoke nipples in inner part of wheel. You then install a tubeless type air chuck that is Air tight. If the bead edge is correct, you then may be able to run a tubeless tire ...without a tube. It's been done and there are speciality wheel makers (like Woody's Wheel Works in USA) who do conversions. Most of these shops will NOT do a front tire conversion (considered too dangerous) But fronts are a piece of cake to change compared to a rear tire, so the rear is what is done. You may also see certain bikes with spokes that are actually tubeless type wheels. BMW, Yamaha have this on GS and Tenere'. Very very expensive wheels. The "Scorpion" tire you refer to is a Pirelli MT90. A very good tire ... but there are TOUGHER tires out there if you look ... but you are limited in sizes for your Honda. Not sure what size rear you run? (I'd guess a 120/17?) Mefo, Heidenau, Mitas, Metzeler Tourance, all tougher tires than your Scorpion ... and longer lasting too. But run what you can get hold of and is not too expensive. In the USA, buy Shinko or Kenda. Cheap and Good for your bike. Check out the Shinko 705. Good road tire, lasts as long as your MT90 ... half the price. |
>bikes with spokes that are actually tubeless type wheels... Very very expensive wheels.
I don't think it's particularly cost-related, after all there's not much price difference between the KTM 690 Enduro with standard spoked wheels and the KTM 690 Supermoto with it's fantastic orange tubeless spoked wheels. Given that I can buy a KTM 1190 R with 21/18 tubeless spoked wheels I can't understand why tubeless spoked wheels aren't more widely available. In the absence of tubeless tyres, I'm thinking of running mousses in the KTM 690 Enduro tyres, but this would limit my tarmac speeds. |
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I had formerly used crossed tire irons most of the time and that works fine with practice. The Bead Pro levers make it far easier to break the bead loose. I use the Bead Pro levers at home for tire changes now. |
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Certainly would appear Tubeless spoked wheels ... a la BMW, KTM and Yamaha Tenere' 1200 ... are on the rise. More and more bikes using these wheels. I would be interested in hearing from users about performance testing of these types of spoked/tubeless wheels. Are they strong? What about weight? Are they heavier than a standard spoked wheel .. or a cast wheel? BMW were the pioneers with this ... and I do know that early BMW spoked tubeless Behr wheels were like butter. Very problematic. I'm not sure who makes Yamaha's spoked tubeless wheel on their Tenere'. Anyone know? My Tenere' riding buddy said they are "HEAVY" ... Dunno? :confused1: Quote:
On the budget Dakar teams many run a Mousse for 2 or 3 race days. Factory guys usually change them out everyday. Seems to me on a 450cc bike running in sand ... those Mousses should not heat up all that much. It's riding pavement at very high speeds (100 mph) where they heat up and self destruct ... according to reports from back in the Africa Dakar days when bikes were 850 to 1000cc with over 100 HP. The South American event restricts road speeds now. I think if you were doing a mostly ALL OFF ROAD tour, Mousse's may work out. Dunno, never used them. If you were abroad, in rural areas with only small towns ... and your Mousse melted ... how would you change it out? I guess you could cut the tire off? then go back to a tube? |
I'd forget mooses for Tarmac..even if keeping the speeds down..they can be made a bit less squidgy by using an old heavy duty type tube cut open with the moose inside of that,I resorted to it at an event that required a trials tyre on rear,it enable me to run a moose for a 2 day event without the worry of a puncture on a pretty long lap,but its still in the back of your mind on faster bits that the trials tyre has very soft side walls...
I don't think I'd ideally put one in anything more road orientated than a Pirelli mt 21 ideally.. They also need to be kept lubed,not realy an issue when your only getting a few days out of a tyre,but could be a bit of an issue otherwise.. |
Interesting! Trials tires are meant to be run at 8 to 10 PSI. Run higher and they are crap. Experts tell us a tire with a Mousse insert is around the equivalent of 12 to 14 PSI if using a normal tube. (perfect off road pressure when running a knobbie ... but not great for paved roads).
I've used a Trials tire off road on my WR250F for the last 3 years and can't seem to wear it out. But very little pavement. I run 8 psi and it's better than any knobbie I've ever used. Simply astounding traction everywhere (save mud) BTW, in the USA ... at many Moto Cross (and other) race events Trials tires are ILLEGAL. Verboten. No question current Mousse insert products are NOT going to work on a loaded travel bike where you're doing road and dirt. What I was suggesting was a NEW PRODUCT from Michelin (or whomever) that would be reformulated to work on a heavier dual sport bike in ALL conditions. I'm guessing they could engineer one with the proper compound if they thought there was a market got such a thing. bier |
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A similar thread has been running over at Adventure Bike Rider forum and several of the respondents have experience of using mousses for long distances. |
I use Mousse from time to time for enduro but I will not recommend it for traveling.
If you want it to last you will have to lube it regularly so in the end it will be more hassle then running a tube and fix the occasional flat. Lubing is not a problem in enduro because the tires only last 10 hours anyway... But personally I don't use mouse unless it's very important not to get a flat. Mousse is a lot of work and it's not possible (or at least not easy) to play around with pressure. It protects the rim a bit better then a tube. HD/UHD-tubes works pretty good. Mousse is very expensive. A trick is to use mousse for larger wheel dimensions, this will increase "pressure" and it lasts longer - but it's even harder to mount. 25 years ago when I was driving trial I used the old tires on various bikes. It was far from perfect, they didn't last long and they didn't like wet conditions (rain/mud) or sand. Last year I tried a Dunlop 908 on my GS and had to limp home after 250kms... My guess is that Mitas MC-18 is a far better choice and it works very well in mud. I use it for Enduro and will probably give it a try on the BMW, and hopefully it will last a weeks expedition... BTW (and back to topic): I have run tubeless 0.5 bar (7.5 PSI) on a heavy bike without problems for rather long distances. The last years I've increased pressure (to save the rims) and kept higher speed. It works. |
For riding on rough terrain you want spoked weels to better distribute the shock across the entire rim (think of it as each spoke pulling the outer rim towards the center like a drum skin - if a load is put on one place of the rim, then it is pulled/absorbed to the rest of the wheel). With a hard static wheel the entire shock is concentrated in one spot, with a much higher probability of a broken wheel, hub, bearings, etc.
With spokes, as mentioned by others, running tubeless is a risky prospect. Even if you can seal the rims to run tubeless you want to be able to adjust spokes or replace them as needed to make the rim straight and round. As mentioned, sealing the spoke holes is a risky prospect as they can fail and lead to a flat tire in an instant. Like I mentioned before, if you want to deflate the tires for riding on soft surfaces you really don't want to deal with tubeless tyres, at best you will destroy the tyres and possibly the rim. And, even if you can use mousse, why would you want to? The mousse would have to be replaced, which kind of defeats the purpose if you want tubeless so you don't have to change innertubes in case of a puncture. Tubeless is for smooth surface riding on hard alloy rims only, tubed on the other hand can be used for any type of wheel under any condition... |
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As other have mentioned it's also commonly used in trial, where they run at very low pressure under extreme conditions. |
Don't forget all those Landcruisers and jeeps you see littering the worlds dirt roads when their alloy and steel disc wheels don't flex! ;-)
It's just a case of dimensions to make any design work. A bike alloy designed to save the weight of a manufacturers CEO's pay packet and so get it on the front of MCN is not always going to survive off the highway, especially if made of Chinese toffee. The most unreliable wheels I've ever had to deal with were the fully traditional spoked jobs on the Bonneville (more Chinese toffee). Designed to be shiney in a showroom and only go as far as Brighton on bank holidays for sure. The tooling cost of an off-road specific bike alloy would be too much for the market while small makers can continue to knock out their rim and wire product without the initial outlay. Personally I'd still say most bikes sell on looks, perception/tradition and fashion. BMW went tubeless with spokes to add another talking point to their list of gadgets, the MX competitors don't want to try and talk their customers into something new and most "adventure" bike manufacturers are still using whatever is in the parts bin from their tourers/racers in the expectation most of us don't go that far off road. Moto Guzzi (the fools) thought they could get me to pay more for PITA spoked/tubed wheels and more shiney stuff. Andy |
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I currently have tubeless tyres on the bike but no plans to go far. If I use the bike for another extended trip I will definitely fit tubed tyres. I will also carry some means of patching the inside of the tyre so that in the event of a cut there will be something to protect the new tube. I'd rather have the means to keep going in any event even if it means that I don't have quite the same convenience for repairing small pin holes. One other point: The tyre that split was a Metzeler Sahara tubeless (T/L), it was a sod to get off the rim and back on and difficult to seat even with a lot of pressure. The tyre that was supplied from SA was a Metzeler Sahara tubed type (TT). They said that they didn't have the T/L type available in SA. This was much easier to get onto the rim and seated perfectly on the first attempt. |
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I too have noticed TT type tires mount/dismount more easily than TTL type. Tube tires also run COOLER than tubeless ... and wear LONGER. One tip for future reference ... in many less developed countries they have tire repair Kiosks. Tires there are terribly expensive and locals have developed all sorts of repair techniques to avoid buying a new tire. The repair techniques used would be totally ILLEGAL in USA or EU. We had a side wall split in Mexico. Someone CUT the tire! About a 2 inch gash in side wall. No way would a Mexican throw away a tire with a split side wall if tire still had lots of tread on it. They fix it! :D The Llantero guy didn't even blink. "No hay problema!" They VULCANIZE on a patch on the inside. Creates a HUGE smoke bomb and they literally melts the tire. They do this all the time ... especially on big truck tires. The patch was thin and smooth so did not interfere with the tube. Is that tire 100% safe by our "modern western standards"? :innocent: Uh, hmmm .... no! :rofl: (keep your speed down!) But it will get you going on down the road. The case I witnessed (friends bike) it was a tube type tire ... and we put in a new tube. But honestly, I think the Mexican Llantero guys could have done the same repair on a split tubeless tire ... and it would hold. It looks like HELL ... but actually works. 100% illegal in the USA. (the smoke is highly toxic!) My friend ran the tire ... at high speed ... for another 1500 miles. NO PROBLEM! The split did not re-appear, tire carcass seemed OK. Amazing. Nothing is thrown away ... although all those old time values are quickly being lost ... RTW. |
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I had a factory tubeless spoke rim on a Road King. The rear tire had a sudden failure at full interstate speed which ended up with me in the ditch. The shop couldn't find any evidence of any kind of puncture or other road hazard damage to the tire. It seems to have just rapidly gone flat. The conclusion I drew was that it was a failure of the rubber strips that were supposed to seal the spoke holes.
I love my current tubeless MAGS... but I will never ever never ever never run a tubeless SPOKE rim again. never. Neither homemade or factory. Quote:
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Ultimately, the tube is really only the vessel for holding the air - just as the chamber created by a tubeless tyre sealed against the rim is - so ideally you do not want the tyre to let through an object in the first place - whether that be due to the thickness of the tread [blocks] or ultimately the carcass itself. Running low pressures with tubes can increase the chance of a pinch-flat (typically if you hit a sharp/square edged rock or similar), but on the whole, I'd suggest that a quality tyre, inflated to a sensible pressure for the weight of the bike, is no more likely to puncture with or without a tube? Certainly I imagine that the reason BMW riders (for example) are not constantly complaining about punctures is less to do with their tubeless rims and more because they are almost always running a Continental TKC80, which has nice big tread blocks, and relatively few thinner gaps between the tread than a more dirt/MX derived all-terrain treaded tyres? Jx |
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I ended up going with Michelin Bib mousses coupled with Michelin Desert tyres and have been running my first set now for close on 10,000km. I took the mousses out recently to have a look and they are still in good condition. The rear tyre will need changing soon, might put the old mousse back in. |
As a production / project engineer I would say the usual factors are at play. The arty types want showroom pretty so off road and retro styles must have spokes. The money people want to buy fabricated up to the production level where buying a casting tool set makes more money. Occasionally the parts department will get a money making wheeze based on using a weird tyre size and controlling the world's supply. Not many people buy their weekend toy based on service needs, we are a fraction of the market.
My industry is different. Trucks use three or four sizes of rim and two variants of hub connection because service requirements rule. Andy |
looking at whats available,(and pretty much always has been) it seems to me you can only have tubeless tyres and shaft drive on big bikes, why no air cooled singles or twins around 500cc to 650cc with tubeless tyres and shaft drive ?,(i remember when bmw first hinted they were bringing out a baby gs ,my thoughts of a air cooled single with shaft drive and tubeless tyres vanished when the funduro came out ,just more of the same), i believe its because if there was they wouldnt sell the big top range models, my rant over ,steve
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Andy |
hi andy yes a nice bike ,i should have made the point that i meant ENDURO style bikes,why has the super tenere 1200 got shaft and tubeless tyres and the 660 not,the bmw 1200 both but the 650/800 not,the aprillia caponord shaft drive and tubeless tyres,i have always thought there has been a lost opportunity for a simple air cooled,shaft drive,tubeless tyre,smallish enduro styled bike,i thought when bmw hinted back in 1992 i think about a baby gs (r80/100 air cooled ,shaft drive,tubeless tyres) ,YES i thought a change,but what we got was a liquid cooled single with chain drive and tubed tyres funduro (the same as all the other makers),in my mind nothing like a baby gs,and here we are in 2015/6 with the same being offered ,small bike = chains and tubes and big bikes = shaft and tubeless ,steve
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The carbed F650 was the worst possible combination, TL tyres with something that made the bead a real swine to break (possibly a retaining profile) with a tube to stop you using plugs. The only advantage was that the waterpump failed before I got a puncture!
Andy |
since starting riding (from 79) ive always hoped a sort of road version of a moose would be available,a sort of fit and forget till the tyre needs changing item,but alas no ,my first bike a yamaha dt100,brought new i had for 18 months before it was stolen,in that time i did 18,800 and had either 11 or 13 punctures,i cant remember for sure now,one of them made by a 4" section of car chrome metal side trim (before the plastic side stripes) that i found inside the tube,and have had other punctures since then ,even with slime in, so for me a road going moose would be perfect, not to stop the puncture in the first place but not having to fix it after,just keep riding ,steve
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very good subject really . Some points
1) As I ride since 70 or 71, i had seen a lot of improvments in tubes, tyres and so, not in vulcanization stuff, in these years even in the smallest villages of Greece you may find some little shop . So something like a bib mousse was a topic for me since the first time I heard about it. After 2 falls because of front tire deflated in 2 Sec' :rain: So I had been riding on roads with tubeless since 92 or something , with one puncture :palm::palm: without worry. 2) As i was going back on trails, pistes, and so , I had wondered around : - my mechanics, former rider in cross and enduro, said no need , hard to fix an dont support more than 1,2 kg ; take reinforced no problem. I had no problem:D 3) all the pros ( tours and guides ) I had seen in Morocco use BIB mousse on light bikes : DR, DRZ, KTM, and so . Did not meet enough GS to ask ( just one on an easy trail ) :rofl: I had my day also in Burundi; : 3 punctures in one day, 2 back wheel . nice with hte heat, the grispters, the fatigue ... nice also to be young :clap: I fell asleep while fixing my gear for maybe :blushing: two hours, fix it, go on the bike and ride down a village . |
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Obviously there are compromises and trade offs on these spoked tubeless systems. Pure spoked rims are stronger than cast, but only alternative to tubes are Bibs or converting to tubeless wheel. (questionable) Quote:
I always discounted them because the only info I ever heard about was from Dakar ... where we would hear of them "melting". Dakar guys changed them everyday when the race was held in Africa. But I realize that at NON race pace Mousse's can last a LONG LONG TIME :D |
I'd say there is more money to be made in selling big bikes. That way, the big bikes get the more expensive extras. A lot of people will want the extras so get a big bike (which might make a part of your body appear bigger ? ) so the smaller bikes get less extras.
Me. I'll just get off the bike, take the riding gear off, light me a cigarette and get on with changing the tube on my little bike after I've found me the other half of the center stand. :rofl: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...pssvupulgc.jpg |
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http://schoene-motorradreisen.de/mit...k_loop_055.jpg http://schoene-motorradreisen.de/?re...op&design=dark |
I suppose that *might* be the case with some plug-type solutions, but the mushroom head Stop 'n Go solution has proven to be reliable. I've used it on both motorbikes and 4x4s with the plugs remaining in place until the tyre eventually is replaced at end of life.
A puncture patch on a butyl rubber tube fixed with just glue often doesn't hold in hot climes. Ideally it needs to be vulcanised per the photo much higher up in this thread. |
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I've had better luck with common "String" type rubberized/fiber plugs sold at auto parts stores (USA). I'm more used to these. With String Plugs you can sort of "custom" size the string (or strings) to match size of hole. TIP: Use a TON of rubber cement! I've only done some rough Baja tracks with tire plugs fitted on Vstrom rear tire. Never caused problems. Rode tire down to nothing, plug held. Only had ONE plug leak in last 20 years ... pulled it out, replaced with another, all good. Tested to 140 mph. :eek3: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q...71_YWaQf-L.jpg Tire nearly done ... plug holding. 70mph on this dirt road. |
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It's interesting to find they have been in you tyre for a year as the manufacture gives it a shelve life. If the answers are positive I may have to rethink about using them again, My bike is a xt 600 Tenere I'll be running tk80 from Greece. from uk I'll be using a road going tyre. I've got two sets of wheels. My brother lives in corfu he drives over in May every year so he is taking a set of wheels over with some other equipment Thanks |
It's on a KTM 690R, see photos here.
I took a great deal of advice from Mike54 and others on a similar thread to this over at AdventureBikeRider. It's important to get a good match between the tyre and the mousse. The Michelin Desert + Michelin BIB mousses are difficult to fit but long lasting. Not having to carry four tyre levers, two spare inner tubes, an electric tyre inflator, bead buddy, valve puller and bike stand saved a lot of space and weight. I have to say I ride quite slowly to avoid heat buildup which is what destroys the tyres and mousses, so I'm typically doing 70-80 kph on roads, with occasional 100 kph. They are rated up to 120 kph and I've done that for short intervals but the temperature was below freezing at the time. |
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A few questions: What was the mileage of that combination (Michelin Desert + Michelin BIB)? Can the Michelin BIB survive several tyres? How did you feel the "airpressure", it sais 0.9, enough for the protection of the rim? Thanks sushi |
Just finished reading the two links you posted Tim it seams that it's possible to ride with the Michelin Bib mousses on a a long distance tour.
I think there's a few things to take into consideration correct fitting right tyre combination, I think I'll stick with the plan to ride on to greese on a pair of slicks from there I will have to consider my options, Tim when you finished your trip on the Michelin Bib mousses last year what's your thoughts on them, Did you feel the bike moved around with and without luggage, was the bike stable in corners on the road or did it move a little. I think on the xt600 speed is not going to be a issue 60-70 is about its cruising speed, once in the stans I'm not going to be doing speed more like quick trails. |
What a fuss
I think Dutchgit has the right idea. I do like your branch-stand!
The weight of a few levers, a pump etc. really is very little when you longhaul it. I would recommend to everyone to learn to take your tube out and repair it. Too much tech can also work against you and IMHO, I can´t see using mousses on long trips. I can see their benefits on short trips to Morocco but I have never hear of anyone using these on long distance travels. Do correct me if I am wrong- |
I'd like to hear Tim's thoughts too on how his 690 felt when fully loaded riding paved roads with the Bib in. ?c?
From what I've heard from Bib Mousse users, Bib's are roughly equivalent to 12 to 14 PSI. That is pretty low ...but perfect off road if bike not too heavy. But on paved road? You may feel "squirm" or movement on a loaded bike, dunno, never ran them myself. :mchappy: Perhaps there are now Bibs offered to HIGHER equivalent pressures? Anyone know? I think the trick is to keep speeds down on highway, keep bike as light as possible. Like under 60 mph and under 450 lbs. Off road it's unlikely you'd be carrying very high speed traveling ... so should be OK there. You could also try "Tire Balls", where pressure is adjustable over a short range. Tire Balls — Frequently Asked Questions Friends that have run Dakar both in Africa and S. America had No budget teams. They managed to get two or even three days out of ONE BIB. Sponsored teams change the Bib everyday. But in S. America there are fewer very high speed road sections like they had in Africa, shorter distances, lower speeds going from 1000cc bikes down to 450's. Big difference. bier So keep the temps down, Bib's should last ... Problem is .. at 14 PSI on a 500 lbs. bike, the weight will generate heat at speed or on rough going, high speed tracks. I would go for it but still carry a tube, just in case. !Suerte! bier |
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Baja has many sharp edge holes, embedded rocks and such. doh This is one of 3 wheel dents I got from hidden, embedded rocks hit at around 70 mph. Not good. But tire plug (string plug) held OK and so did bead. Like it never happened, rode another 1500 miles with dented rim. It could be your technique is not perfect on plug installation. Plug must fit in TIGHT ... with lots of rubber cement used. Some plugs are not good, but I never had a String Plug come out .... I had one leak one time, but not come out. The little mushroom type plugs (Like in the Tire Plug kit) can sometimes come out if they don't fit puncture hole well. So I think it depends on a few things here ... and why I carry TWO plug kits when riding tubeless tire bikes. bier https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R...2/IMG_1206.JPG |
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The quote below is from the AdventureBikeRider thread I posted earlier... Quote:
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One technique is to take a small section of an old mousse with you, then cut the worn mousse and insert the small segment to tighten everything up again. A bit like the way you pack out old cush drive rubbers with an old inner tube. |
I've got a spare set of wheels I try running them on the xt just to see how the bike reacts road and off road, I've never used them so it will be interesting, I do all my tyre fitting in my shed replacing inner tubes doesn't bother me I'm thinking on the weight side.
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I can really see the reasons for having these, and if there is a problem then it's more than likely it would be the back mouse, inner tubes are alway available across the stans if needed, then there's Iain he will be on his Tenere he will be using inner tubes
My second part of the journey is across America the TAT these seem readerly available there, cheaper than in the uk. If no one has done it on mouses then I can report back later in year to let you know how it went or how it didn't.lol |
Gs rdc
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What tips are out there to remove the and replace the tyre safely without damage to the RDC? I'm on the verge of deciding if I should remove the RDC totally and re-valve the rim in preparation for an outback ride. I also see the HU Meeting will be in Jindabyne NSW later in 2016 - great stuff, hope to meet people there. Cheers Dave |
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