Are tall windscreens a trap?
 

1. My first bike was a naked. Suzuki SFV650 Gladius, for which I bought a tiny Puig windscreen. It made a tangible, if not life-changing, difference - but then, I was also using a very cheap helmet and had not quite discovered earplugs.

2. Then I bought a Honda VFR800 with a double-bubble screen already fitted. (I rode a friend's CBR600F3 for a few months in the meantime, but didn't do any extended trips on it.) On a whim, I put an MRA X-Screen lip on it, and played around with the angle a bit, finding that I actually got much better results if I angled it straight into my face. This was also around the time when I bought a Shoei NXR, and was in a position to assess the relative quietness of different setups. (The reason for the new helmet? The old HJC didn't match the VFR's color scheme.)

3. I rented or test-rode a bunch of stuff, including a CB500X, an NC750X, an Africa Twin, an XR150 (got that thing up to 90km/h indicated!!!), a Vespa 250, and most recently, even a friggin' brand new Gold Wing Tour...

4. The FZ1S I bought came with a tall MRA touring screen already fitted by the previous owner. (One of the reasons I bought the bike was that the guy had invested heavily into touring prep on it, including, by happenstance, the mounting hardware for all the gear I'd kept from the VFR!) This one has a lip spoiler too, and after the first few rides, I quickly tilted it to point straight at my visor again.

5. Had a long trip this past weekend, more or less a circle of the country, and on the last section I was bored and a bit stiff, sitting in the right lane of an empty highway - so I stood up on the pegs.

Amazing! Once my head was up high, out of the airflow, it was so beautifully quiet. Much more quiet than ducking down onto the tank, hiding my head entirely behind the screen (but now hearing engine noise, of course). And this was in a Grex G9.1, basically an overstock old Nolan N90 with different stickers - a great modular helmet for the money, but definitely not the quietest thing in the world.

Sure, there was wind pressure on my chest, but I am definitely willing to live with that if I can keep my head in quiet air like that!

My next step is to fit the stock windscreen that the previous owner gave me, and see if that gives me the effect I want...

Works the same for any bike. bier

While you have the screen off for trying out different ones try riding the bike with no screen fitted - that works ok for the quietness factor also.

Unless I'm missing something how is standing on the pegs (and well above the screen presumably) out of the airflow? My experience with screens has been exactly the opposite; above the screen is as noisy as hell (although it needs a properly designed screen, not your cat flap held in place by duct tape).

Sorry, should've elaborated: out of the flow of turbulent air disturbed by the passage of the bits of the bike in front of you. The helmet traveling on its own through otherwise still air is, apparently, really not very turbulent at all.

(Compare riding with nobody in front of you to being stuck behind a lorry.)

I doubt it will. Probably will be noisy. doh

I'm surprised with all those bikes you never figured out that most screens cause noise and buffeting and that NO screen is quiet in most cases. I've been round and round on screens with several bikes over the years. Talk about chasing your tail! :helpsmilie:

Sometimes you get lucky and find a quiet one, but more often than not, it's quieter with NO SCREEN on the bike at all.

Many ask how I could ride long distance and long days on my DR650. It's a dual sport bike, only has a little front cowl, so you get "clean" air flow. Many DR650 riders add screens ... but I knew enough not to go down that slippery slope.

The one area where (to me) a decent screen makes sense is in VERY COLD conditions. Can help keep you from freezing.

On my former '07 Triumph Tiger I tried 3 different screens, one a very expensive UK product with mulit adjustability ... CRAP! Nothing but noise.

On the Tiger, after 3 screens and no luck, I gave up and just took off the screen. 100% better.

When I sold the bike I put the stock screen back on and gave the new owner one other screen I had left over. I was able to sell off the UK one.

The owner Poo Poo'd the idea of buffeting as a problem. In a month he emailed saying he went in circles trying to get his screen quiet ... and finally did what I had done ... just took the bloody thing off. Job Done! :thumbup1:

And YES ... we all wear very good ear plugs always! bier

I don't use tall screens, prefer to have wind on my chest and have direct view on the road. In my experience much better is to invest in very good, aerodynamic helmet. Once I got my arai tour and shoei nxr helmets they made all the difference, it was much quieter and my had stopped to jerk around on wind gusts. For longer journeys sometimes use earplugs.

Either the windscreen must be so tall that its taller than your head when youre sitting on the bike so that you can hide behind it or it must be relatively low. Those quite high windscreens that only gives shelter halfway up your head and thus gives a huge airflow straight into your head are absolutely the worst. The original screen on my Tenere 660 for example was absolutely PITA. Fitted a 10 cm taller screen and its much better.
On the Tiger 955 I had I went lower than the original and also that was waay much better than original halftall...

I would hardly call them a trap - I find tall windscreens rather comforting, however I do not know how much of that comfort is psychological. Having it cover my entire body provides a sense of protection and safety, even if a superficial one.

That's exactly why I called them a trap. ;) They provide a psychological sensation of being better and more comfortable, while not actually making the ride quieter. I guess they keep more of the bugs off your jacket...

Maybe I'm being obtuse here but my (subjective) experience has been that 'naked' bikes are wind noisy as hell and more tiring to ride - at any significant speed anyway. I can't say I've ever noticed how having my whole upper body directly in the airflow has led to a quiet ride compared to having some kind of barrier in front of me. OK, on some of my DIY attempts it's needed a bit of 'development' work to cut down on edge of the screen turbulence and in one case a 'blowing across a bottle top' whistle but these were easy to do.

The bikes with factory fitted fairings I've owned have all been pretty good and I can't say I've ever thought that they were noisy. My current GoldWing (an extreme example I admit) is so quiet behind the screen I can listen to the radio through the speakers at 70mph. Swapping from that onto a KLR doesn't feel like I've entered an oasis of calm.

And as for riding any distance in winter without some sort of screen - noisy or not - this picture, taken at the side of the autobahn returning from a long ago Elephant Rally, just about says it all. Temp at the time was around -10C :

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...elephant79.jpg

Interesting direction we're going here!
I've ridden several bikes with BIG touring screens (talking about BIG Barn Door style screens now)

Ridden Gold Wings, big Moto Guzzi, to all sorts of BMW's; from old air heads, K bikes to latest RT's and GS's.

Most are fairly quiet and it can be nice sitting in a nice cocoon of still air on a cold day.

But ... In mostly WARM California and Mexico, where I ride, these cocoons of still air are not always a good thing. In the heat ... AIR FLOW is good.

The other big gripe we hear about wind screens is trying to ride off road whilst looking through a screen. I've done it plenty and hate it! doh

First did this on a friends R100GS in Baja. He had fallen, had a minor concussion. So I was conscripted to ride bike back to the highway, load into "sag wagon".

That GS was well set up, had good, fresh knobbies mounted, so it handled Baja's deep sand tracks fairly well (for a GS!) ... but I had a HELL OF A TIME riding as I was forced to look through that tall wind screen.

I could not concentrate well, affected vision, depth perception and mostly confidence. Not good. I only had to ride it for less than an hour, so I guess after a day or so I could have adapted. Overall, very un comfortable for me. :nono:

Later rode a friends XR650L through Mojave Desert. His bike had moderate screen but it really made vital terrain reading/line choice nearly impossible riding at a good pace. I hated it and crashed it. (minor)

Since then ridden a few other Dual sport bikes with screens off road ... I am NOT a fan.

The last point is the danger of having your throat cut it you bash into the edge of the screen in a fall neck first. :censored:
Unlikely, but somehow worries me. :Beach:

Yeah, I just test-rode a Gold Wing, played around with the electric windscreen. Made little difference. Had it up to about 170kph. 70mph - 115 kph - is not really the sort of touring speeds I'm talking about in Europe. ;)

So then the question becomes - why do all the rally-raid fairings are so tall? Can't be just to hide the nav tower? A big KTM Adventure is near-vertical where it meets the air...

no it's not that tall, it's about same height as on xt660z tenere
so you can still see over the screen freely when seated and when on rally you spend plenty of time standing up on pegs anyway, so screen won't matter. Basically it's for protecting the navigation tower from sand etc.

I've toured on bikes with windscreens, and without them. Overall, I prefer going without. Maybe I just like getting blasted by the wind.

As mentioned, mostly to give a place to hang all the stupid crap those guys are required to carry.

At least some electronics are to prevent cheating, which is rampant in World Enduro and ISDE rally. Also to note, a few Dakar racers have been killed when they were squished through all that metal in the Nav tower in crash.

Having hard parts aimed right at your chest and stomach is something I would never do. I'd rather be lost.

The Dakar guys get up to very high speed, despite running just 450's. In the old days of 1000cc twins, when in Africa, speeds often topped 100 mph for long sections.

Nav towers were half the height they are now. So many riders died every year. They kept lowering engine size over and over. 1000 twin, 650 single, and now
450 single.

Now the tall Nav tower look has become "fashionable" I raced AMA Enduro 8 years, had two computers and a clock, no Nav tower or shield of any kind.
It's all just so stupid now. But KTM have sold this look to the public ... and it's pretty successful ... for now. Trends and fashion come and go. Most Americans have no idea what the Dakar is ... and could care less. KTM have built an entire industry on it.

it now costs over $100K USD to run the Dakar. So, a "rich kids" sport and really only KTM do a full factory effort. With about 70 guys riding KTM ... how can they lose?

bier

Something with a big barn door fairing / screen and a pocket of still air where the rider sits can get to the point where it's a health hazard in really hot conditions. My two hottest days ever on bikes were both on GoldWings, although different models, one naked and one 'screened'. The feeling of riding the screened one in parts of Texas, around Phoenix and through the Mojave was, at its worst, close to being drunk. We had to stop in the Mojave as my wife thought she was going to faint. There's just no air flow at all - presumably what the designers intended.

The effect is a bit like driving a no air con car with the windows open but having to wear all your bike gear. Every other Wing we encountered had some kind of vent set into the screen that they could open when the temperature went up. Despite being able to buy them for $25 my UK brain couldn't see the point. Well I can see it now.

My rough 'how hot do I feel' calculations worked out that the fairing / screen was worth about 7-8C. When the mercury hits 40C in the shade and you're riding in the direct sun, that extra 7-8C you're feeling compared to the bloke on the (mostly) naked bike (riding with us) is a big deal. On the other hand up in Wyoming where it was 0.5C and sleeting that 7-8C bonus and (slightly) drier environment was very welcome. I got damp and chilled. He got soaked and frozen.

Right. Fixed the stock shorty screen to the FZ1S and did a few hundred KM over the weekend. Takeaway:

1) The road noise was maybe better - subjectively it felt that way, but it could be wishful thinking. Certainly was not worse. In that sense, yes, having your helmet in clean air is good for noise.

2) However, it was still not as good as standing up on the pegs. I guess the body of the bike spoils the air enough, and the engine noise drops off severely when you stand up, but standing on the pegs with the shorty screen gave the same effect as with the touring screen - FAR quieter than sitting down.

3) The downside of the shorty screen is the chest pressure; even in this heatwave, where coldness is not a concern (in fact I was wearing a mesh jacket), riding at any serious speed with the shorty screen meant leaning forward into the wind. Whereas with the touring barn door screen, I could sit comfortably upright even at speeds of... er, no, officer, I was not doing anything close to that.

4) Another downside is that with the shorty screen, the helmet's aerodynamics were suddenly important. I was using a Grex G9.1, essentially a rebadged Nolan N90, and at speed I could tell the difference between how it cut through the air and how my Shoei NXR did. Both straightline and, especially, doing shoulder checks at speed. The Grex was not terrible, but it was now A Concern, whereas with the touring screen, it wasn't.

5) What the shorty screen does give you, though, is exhilaration and sense of speed; and more maneuvering confidence. So for purely urban riding, I would actually stick to the shorty. But for extended trips, the barn door is going back on.

sounds like you are getting nearer to a quieter screen.
As I'm sure you know, there are several things you can do that may help the wind noise and buffeting.

Spacers can be used to change the angle of attack.
Height adjustment UP or DOWN can sometimes have a positive affect.

But the best I've used are the various adjustable small air foil extension (laminar lip type screen) that attach to your main screen. They allow adjustment which can reduce or eliminate wind noise.

Companies like MRA, Puig and Laminar Lip all make such small adjustable air foil type screens. Some work, some don't.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Misc-Moto...it_300x300.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Misc-Moto...b/O/images.jpg

Yup, that's exactly what I have, and I've found that the best result is angling the lip to look directly into my visor.

When you're following a lorry you're sitting in a pocket of moving air being dragged along by it, so naturally there is less wind noise. What makes the noise is the shearing action between moving and static air, typically as the air stream going past your helmet meets the non moving air inside it. So unless you've got a real "barn door" fairing that deflects all the airflow over your head, your helmet will be in some kind of moving air.

Personally the only advantage I find with screens is they keep some of the wind load off your upper body, avoiding the "sheet in the wind" effect at speed.

That's not what happens though. Unless you are tailgaiting extremely closely, like the hypermiling car guys, you're sitting in the vortex of extremely turbulent air created by the lorry's passing. The absolute most uncomfortable place to be on a motorcycle is behind a lorry. I'd rather ride through a hailstorm.

The reason I brought it up was that if I stand up on the pegs - putting my head significantly outside any aerodynamic business to do with the body of the bike - it gets really quiet. My helmet is still moving through air, obviously.

You don't need to be that close. In my younger days I used to tailgate lorries on motorways a lot, as I had a low powered bike. The "tail" of moving air behind a lorry extends for about a second of travel (I know that's "too close", but I was young and stupid). Once you get outside of that there is a small turbulent zone as the moving air from the lorry meets still air but pretty quickly you're back into still air. And having done many miles with no screens at all I've never experienced a situation where standing up made any difference to wind noise in the helmet. Maybe this is something to do with the airflow set up by your screen?

Lots of things can cause turbulence. On some other forums guys have got into this in a serious way.

Standing IS is indeed quieter if you have any sort of front cowl or small shield.
On a true "naked" bike, would be less, but still a difference sitting to standing. (I measured this with Audiophile pro equipment)

It's been found that even mirrors and bark busters can add to noise.
Who knew?

But, every bike is different and more importantly, every rider is physically different. They sit on the bike differently, are larger or smaller riders, some hunch forward, some sit bolt upright.

All this affects wind noise and buffeting.

And as mentioned, some helmets are better than others.

TIP: having done an actual helmet noise study for USA Motorcyclist magazine (I did sound recording and analysis) we "discovered" that most noise comes from under your chin.

We used a naked bike (1200 Bandit) same rider for all testing.

So ... a chin baffle can quiet things quite a bit ... if you can fit one in there.

In our testing (from early 1990's) Arai was quietest, Shuberth not for sale in USA at that time. Shoei a close 2nd. things dropped off quickly and dramatically after that.

I used "best in the world" lavaliere mics taped onto riders ears with wind screens. Test rider not happy upon removal!
bier

I fit tall screens to all my bikes. And fit universal screens to any bikes that don't have them if I intend to travel on them.

Having a screen takes A LOT of the fatigue out of long distances. And saves your hearing too.

I have found that the top of the screen needs to be in-line with your chin to displace the air over your head.

Helmets with peaks don't help either. Although, I have a peak.

Try one of these.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232870529652

But do put something between the clamp and your screen as these cheaper ones can make your screen crack.

when your grandpas were riding horses would they wear windscreen ???

http://45.media.tumblr.com/ff9fd687b...i37so1_400.gif

if hiding behind big screen why not to get into a car then :)

When my grandpas were riding horses, they were also dying of dysentery. You enjoy your self-image there.

I've never ridden a horse that could reach 80mph into a headwind.

There's a few bikes that cant do that either :mchappy:

I agree with you on all points. I go 'round and 'round with screens and always end up pitching them.

After years of fully faired motorcycles, I changed to a naked machine, it was fitted with a very small screen that did not much more than keep the instruments out of the rain, I tried the manufactures touring screen, but when it rained it channelled all the rain onto my gloves, eventually soaking through, plus cold hands

I changed to a PUIG screen that is adjusted to allow plenty of airflow onto my helmet, but keeps my upper body out of the cold and also my hands out of the wind and rain

I find that very tall screens allow you to ride with an open face helmet, or a full face with the visor up, but turbulence and distorted vision take away the pleasure of the ride,
On a long tour a good screen makes all the difference between being able to do 300 miles a day in comfort against 200 in discomfort

I rarely manage to tour in the hot weather, so rain and cold are ever present