Dodgy Dealer Legal Question
 

Hi Everyone

My older brother who who is ‘vulnerable’ and unemployable since suffering PTSD in the 70’s came into some unexpected money and tried to buy a bike from a dealer in the Midlands, although he lives in Exeter.

He chose the bike and gave the dealers a £200 deposit by phone banking. A month later he gave them another £900 but then his money stream dried up.
He told the dealers that he’d pay over the next few months and was told that he had five days to pay or lose the sale.

My brother couldn’t pay so he asked for his money back. The salesman said that he could have the £900 back but the deposit was non-refundable but then the manager yelled into the phone that the whole amount was non-refundable and he’d get nothing back.

Can anyone advise me on where he stands legally? Can he get all or part of his money back?
Should we also look at the bank for letting him toss out such large amounts without checking?

Thanks guys, this brother has nothing at all left.

Ring up Citizens Advice. They’re really helpful and they’ll tell you exactly where you stand legally. When I was in dispute with a large national DIY co over a similarly arbitrary decision they sent me a stock letter to kick off legal redress.

What's the contract say ??? Without that you are going to struggle............agree citizens advice is the way forward , but they will require the aforementioned as everything you have said is effectively third hand . Negotiation will b the way forward......

I would also keep the banks on side as they can often retrieve funds from an account if the payment is disputed. First Direct have done this twice for me over the years but you need a paper trail sk to speak for them to act on your behalf .

On the face of it the dealer has £1100 of your money and you have nothing - no bike or anything else. Is that right? Did you sign a contact of any sort - sales or finance or anything else? If so then the terms of the contract may well govern where the money ends up, but a bad tempered rant in the background isn’t going to hold much water legally.

This ^^^. Ignore the sales manager's rant, since it has nothing to do with any legalities. Look into the written terms under which money was given; if there were no written terms, that's an important lesson for your brother (and, perhaps, you as well). In such a case, whatever is customarily done might have some bearing, but that's mere speculation on my part.

I'm not sure what "vulnerable" means in the U.K., but here in the States there are legal definitions having to do with someone's ability to fend for themselves, including by entering into contractual arrangements. Many adults, having been deemed incompetent, can't do this--instead, someone else is able to do things on their behalf, whether another person or a trustee appointed for the purpose. In some cases it's a crime to take financial advantage of such a person given their vulnerable state, but this generally applies when that state has been specifically defined by a judge in advance--not when you or I believe it to be true.

As I say this, I'm aware that the laws governing such interactions vary widely in the US from state to state, and certainly from one country to the next. If this were my brother, I'd arrange to talk with someone with knowledge of the local laws--usually a social worker in a public agency. If my brother were deemed not competent to manage his own financial affairs, I'd be asking about entities which could do this for him. In that case, he might no longer have direct access to bank funds, but getting to that point might involve a lot of work and annoying bureaucracy.

Hope that's helpful, but if I'm missing the boat please just ignore part or all.

Mark

It's similar. Probably unlikely a court will have declared anyone incompetent, we save that tag for politicians, but you have a duty not to rip off people you should be able to tell aren't totally with it.

Coming at this from the other side, I'm usually the one stuck with goods, consider the following.

A paper contract is what you need. All is not lost if you don't have one though, just ask for a copy of their terms and conditions "for use when seeking advice". You can still dispute a paper contract though.

Negotiate. Ranting, wailing, threats, just shows the shiny suit double glazing sales types their bullying had an effect. They enjoy it and it drives what can be a psychotic need to win. Present them a deal they can "win". Just ask what they want in a calm, detailed way. Do not pretend to be anything you aren't, we salesman love a "not fit for purpose" line that the interweb claims is in the Sale of Goods Act 1884 to prove the whiney PITA customer doesn't have a Scooby.

Any contract, verbal or not has to be reasonable, legal, agreed. You are going to dispute it's reasonable. What work did they do for £1100? A bit of admin, bank fees maybe?. You are going to dispute that your brother agreed to the non-refundable part, at least on the second payment because he'd be stupid to pay two deposits when the first had secured the bike. Ask for details of what work they did for this money, they are claiming you paid for a service, so what was it?

Ask for contact details of the company directors, owners, who ever is higher in their chain of command. Ask who their lawyers are.

Tell them you are considering completing the contract and ask about delivery etc. Maybe they'd like to breach the contract because they've already sold the bike to another customer?

If lawyers get involved they will be the only winners. It's better to look like the customer who'll go away if he gets most of his money back, but does have the funds to bust the dealer if sufficiently riled.

Andy

Here you go (two seconds with Google), Cancelling Goods or Services

Some excellent advice in the previous posts and as mentioned, stay calm and 'reasonable', present the facts without emotion, keep in mind you might want your correspondence to be read by a judge, or to be sent to a local newspaper.

Off topic, but I rejected and secured a full refund on a vehicle as "not fit for purpose" and not of "satisfactory quality" under the Sales of Goods Act 1979

Well, I did phone the manager and very reasonably explained the situation as we saw it.

He doesn’t want to give it back but said he’d think about it over the weekend and get back to me.

Thanks guys,

Lots of useful stuff there. I’ve taken notes and await the manager’s call back.

As for the contract, my brother appears to have been buying the bike over the phone from a dealer half the country away. No idea why he’d do that but he’s a brain damaged ex army pensioner.

I’ll chase up the CAB and his bank next week and speak reasonably with the dealer when he calls.

Thanks again

Dealer may not want to give it back.......but if u go down the civil route the dealership will have to evidence what its cost them . Also I can't believe they took a deposit with no contract enabled........does he have email ? If its word of mouth then yes there is a contract in place but I wouldn't want to b that dealer when u give him 14 days notice of civil proceedings , asking for the majority of the cash back and your legal expenses etc etc . I say that as someone who has been in civil court as a witness on more occasions then I care to count .
Be reasonable make notes of all calls and chats showing times etc , lots of evidence is what u want.

Lucky.

SoGA '79 is no more, replaced by the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

A vehicle is not consumer goods. I forget details but some court decided. Doesn't change the principles of contracts, only how the professionals will deal with it once raised from their crypt.

"Fit for purpose" is a trap. The engineers at the manufacturers get to define said purpose, they have piles of documents that say so. Things like "do not jet wash" get transferred to owners manuals at their lawyers suggestion.

"Saleable/merchantable quality" is better, it was in SoGA 1979. That really defines purpose at the basic level, you can't sell a warm fridge or cold oven or dirty washing machine because the basics are just defined in English not product specs.

Andy

This was 2011/2012.

Not lucky just correct application of the applicable legislation at the time. The dealers didn't count on pissing off someone who's job was interpretation and application of legislation.

Contract law was a particular specialty and when a particular use was requested prior to the sale, it becomes part of the contract between the seller and the purchaser. Further strengthen when the salesman stated in front of witnesses that the vehicle would be more than suitable for the specified purpose.

Vehicles still fall within the scope of the Consumer Rights Act but not if its a private sale.

The devil I'm afraid will b in the detail.........you may still loose the lot , it depends on the conditions of said contract . Hence the advice from everyone to b polite and flexible..........I'm assuming its a second hand bike ? More scope for an outcome in ur favour .
Keep us all posted..........