Ethical tourism
 

Hi folks. No politics intended in this post - just some questions. There's no doubt that we are privileged people - to ride in other countries or around the world. There's also no doubt that we sometimes ride through countries where poverty is extreme, or freedom is questionable.

What's our responsibility? Do you feel that you spend money there, thus help the economy? Do you go out of your way to buy local? Do you volunteer while travelling, or make donations or what?

I've watched hundreds of hours of video's of folk riding around the world. In none of them has this been discussed publicly, nor have I seen them actively pursuing this. I contacted some of the more famous ones and asked - cause they may be doing lots, and not showing it...but I got no response.

Thanks. As I get ready to leave - this question is important to me.

I'm not surprised you didn't get much response from the usual big name suspects. At that level it all shades into the business world, and if you're not buying ....

As you've probably found there's plenty of info out there about which bike to use, what luggage is best etc - all sorts of practical but trivial stuff. Mainly because it's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff, brand X is better than brand Y, and install in you a fear that if you don't have the right stuff the trip will be a disaster.

The area you're asking about though is far more personal and far more difficult to monetise. It's also a moral minefield, with Facebook outrages only a click away no matter what you decide to do. People will talk about this stuff in private but not in any form that could end up backfiring on them. My take on it, from the amount of travel I've done, is that whatever vision or role you see yourself having before you start won't last long once you're there, and that pragmatism is the best approach.

With volunteering, anything I (we - it includes my travelling kids) have done has always been arranged beforehand. Just turning up at the door of an agency and offering your services has never been welcome - they don't know you and without a paperwork trail are unlikely to be able to make use of you. They'll take donations though!

Other people's experiences may be different - and probably are as there's no hard and fast rules with this. This stuff has been discussed here before but maybe it's time to update it. Lat's see what others think

At the end of the day what you spend goes to the ordinary people of the country, and that's OK by me.

Ethical tourism
 

Its a really good question to ask.

When i did my biggest trip (through Africa) I arranged some stuff in advance (for me that was in Zimbabwe and Ethiopia), and also did some ongoing follow up after I got home.

We are all touched by different things. It good to think about what concerns you, what outcome you are wanting to support, what you have to offer (that the local community don’t have) and how you avoid getting snared in the parasitic gravy train that surrounds aid projects.

I had previously visited Zimbabwe and time on the ground gave me insights on what i felt the biggest need and opportunity was. So when i came home i spoke to some charities about what i had seen, and agreed how i could help a particular project that aligned with my concerns. On my big trip i then went to visit the project and people post completion, which was really insightful.

In Ethiopia I was already contributing to some other projects there and again went to see the reality on the ground. That changed how i supported the charity going forward.

Meanwhile in Malawi i did just bump into a local education project. When i got home i sent them a small amount of cash, as this seemed my way of doing my bit.

In contrast my daughter went on a volunteer building programme for 2 weeks to Tanzania. Given my time again we’d have done much better just sending the money we spent on the trip to a charity who could have achieved their aims more effectively using local labour, rather than unskilled first world volunteers. And then taking her to see the project after.

I agree with the previous post - plan in advance. Hard to say more on a forum but if you want a bit more info, or a link to a blog, by all means drop me a pm.

Cheers
Andy

Spending
 

I try to spend the money as local as possible.
As close as possible to the producers.

So that the money end up with the people that do the hard work.
Ans less in big companies that distribute.

But not only for money. It is more interesting, the closer you come to the local people (I do not know what word to use without offending people. But if I say "poor" people, try to interpreted that in correct way), the more you learn.

Pictures

Perfect lunch place. Much better than Hotel with many stars

Clothing. Direct from producer

I've booked marked a series of websites dedicated to this topic, in that they are ways of contributing and yes, planning in advance. Packing for a purpose, and other ideas.

I travelled India and one had to cautious when donating....but we did it...directly to those who needed.

But as a sustained effort over a long journey...its a tough call. Spending local makes sense. I would anyway, but staying away from 5 star hotels...and fancy restaurants....not that there's anything wrong with doing that - its just not grassroots.

It is something I wish to include in my travels, and to publicize when it makes sense. Not for me, but to help raise funds for good causes.

Examples and ideas most appreciated.

Well I'm going to be honest. I'm on holiday. No hippy stuff about expanding my mind and doing it for the good of humanity. No missionary work, the locals can work stuff out for themselves and its rude to assume we know better . I buy from whoever seems likely to do a good job. Sometimes that's the local char stand bloke, sometimes it's McDonald's because they are less likely to give me food poisoning (and employ locals anyway).

Andy

Ethical tourism
 

Haha, fair enough. I am not opposed to a good holiday either.

But if you are someone who is concerned about poverty and global inequality, and you are also into adventure travel, at some point those two interests (for want of a better word) are going to bump into each other.

Complete aside, but that brought back memories of meeting some ageing American missionaries in a bush hotel in Zambia. It was breakfast time and the chap (at the breakfast table next to me) was moaning about some minor inattention in the service he expected to receive. I gently pointed out that it was highly likely that none the people serving him had ever stayed in a hotel like this, so probably didn’t intuitively get the first world service expectations he had from 5* America. It appeared a completely new revelation to him. It didn’t bode well for the cultural sensitivity of the rest of his mission (whatever that was)!

Years back I met an American peace corps volunteer drinking his troubles away in a restaurant in Senegal. He was on a break from working in a remote village in Mali, trying to introduce sustainable 'agriculture' (planting new trees to replace cut down ones etc). He'd been there six months and managed nothing. All he got was blank stares and 'Allah will provide". Different cultures indeed.

I'm not going on a holiday. This is my retirement and I have no intension of returning. That changes things.

Here's a point for you to consider. Even if I take no action, just thinking about Ethical Actions, including tourism or travel, takes the mind to different places. Suddenly, it's not just about you. Its not just ME going somewhere - but about how I interact - with intension - to the people and situations I experience. I'm pre-loading my mind to consider why? What am I doing? How am I going to affect people around me?

Most of you may not think this way, and that's fine. But I do. For me, the motorcycle, the scenery, food, everything is secondary to the people I'll meet - and the purpose I give to going.

So its not just about can I help. But should I? When? How? Why?

We are the privileged. The fortunate. It is incumbent upon us to think deeper than our own desires, and to give back.

So I seek some new directions. Maybe a really cool door opens that turns part of a a ride into a real adventure that's not just good for me, but others.

Interesting question. Difficult question.

In conflict, building bridges is important, but so is picking a side. It is important with first hand cultural and informational exchanges, and to support the oppressed -but doing so can be difficult without it directly or indirectly benefiting those which one wants to take a stance against.

It may be impossible to visit or reside in a country without oppressors benefitting. One can however make the better choices whenever possible, and boicot oppressors and their henchmen whenever possible. One can stay away from being a patron of big business (national or international in the country).

But, how would you visit south-africa during the apartheid boicots and international sanctions without the oppressing side having a greater benefit of your wallet than the oppressed?

Pretty sure no one has a problem with that krtw - its a pretty diverse and accepting bunch around here and I didn’t read any criticism of your question in people’s responses.

But i also appreciated threewheelbonnie’s response too. It is true that sometimes it is just about the travel.

Sounds like you’ve got a interesting journey ahead. What’s the itinerary?

Of course I agree too. As stated clearly, this is only MY belief and approach. I will say - at this point I have no answers...Lots will be a jam. On the spot. Some planned. And lots of - this is not the the time or place to do anything, so just ride. All the above.

Canada - there's 2 places in Newfoundland I have not been. So generally - There first, then the Labrador Hiway, cross the country and north to TukTuktoyaktuk - Alaska, then straight south to Central America - few months there, and into South America for two to three years. Fly bike across the South Africa - and from there play it by ear depending on conditions....That's generally the plan, but subject to change.

I'd like to spend a year in Europe - but conditions may decide otherwise. Its a strange world emerging from the pandemic...Flexibility the key to everything me thinks.

Actually, I think you may have misjudged your audience. I’d submit that MOST of us think that way, although we may arrive at conclusions and courses of action different from yours.

No argument from me.


I’m not clear whether you intend this to sound belligerent, but that’s the way it sounds to my ear. If your goal is to engage in dialogue with others on this site, you might consider adopting a different tone. That’s not intended as an attack—more a suggestion attached to a bit of feedback which may or may not interest you.

There are people here who’ve dedicated small and large parts of their lives to thinking about and acting upon their desire to give and share. I’m interested in your perspectives, and I’m interested in hearing more—from you and others.

Hope that’s helpful.

Mark

I edited my post and apologize, cause it did sound belligerent, but not intended.

Sorry.

There are few places in this world I would not go. I do try to be mindful of with whom I do business with (directly or indirectly) - in terms of who is to benefit on who's expense - as I do when I am at home. Often I am not making the best, the most altrustic or the most genuine choices - but I make an effort to do so.

Personally I can't condone anyone to go to any country, nor to not make their life about saving everyone who needs saving. One can be selfish some times and still be a genuine empathetic and generous person.

?What's our ethical responsibility? Our first responsability is to earn the respect of our hosts.

I remember having read something similar somewhere.
It´s a difficult object I think. We all want to be ¨good¨ people and for some it means give and share, but is that the right thing to do?
When many travelers give things or money to people who have less, there is the danger those travelers create a image of us westerns being riding wallets and the poor people expect the next traveler also to give them something, maybe getting angry when he doesn´t want to give.
Another question: are the poor people really poor, or is it only in comparison to our lifestyle? Are they less happy then we are?
And also: if we give, to whom we have to give? We can´t feed a whole village or a whole country. If we give one family, what about the other families? That´s unfair and can create problems in between them.

As others mentioned it doesn´t mean we can´t do anything. In Europe most people from the north and west seeking the sunshine in France and Spain. I went to the Balkans, the same sunshine but my money is definitely better spent there.

Ethical travelling is complicated... And it is a very good question.

We are not even able to start without feeding some countrys who did something wrong in the past.

Buying a satellite messenger / tracker from the US? Its a country who did kill most indian people in the past.

Buying a car in Portugal? That country did gain their economy in the past from slavery.

Buying an japan bike/car? There was Pearl Harbour..

Even the swiss did rent mercenary`s in their history (16th Century).

Considering that, is it really ethical incorrect to to travel to any country in the world? is it incorrect to visit israel, because of golan? Or was it incorrect to travel to Russia because of the krim situation? Later probably the ukraine situation? Is it better travelling to australia, a country who did too harm their aborigines?!

Moralism it something what dont fit into travelling / adventures as we like to do it.

If we ask Greta, we kill the nature with using gasoline/diesel for "just" travelling / adventure purpose.
The countries that supply us with diesel / gasoline are not exactly known for their democracy - to made another point. We cant do something good with feeding them by using fuel?

Most on a RTW Trip are not spending a lot, we are on a budget. Most of us are travelling quickly. Some of us even do wildcamping and are not using hotels.

No we dont bring a lot for the local economy. Any package travellers did spent a lot more. We did spend a lot for normal holidays, not at international extended roadtrips.

Travelling is something most of us are doing JUST for ourself. Just a view use it for filming, writing a book or similar - are giving something back to the society (without making a business out of it).

We could do a lot to the society at home, we could host refugees, we could cook for homeless people, we could try to made the live better for our neighbours or strangers we meet.

Yes I did donate directly in India at a Orphanage - but did my cash went into the pocket of the director or did it really reach the kids?

That we can do something better with cash abroad - is mostly just something for our ego, for ourself and will not help someone else. Think about the millions of cash our rich countrys did spend in the third world - did it really help at the end of the day?

Also the missionaries - do they really help in africa?
https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hu...onaries-101726

Yes, we selfdriving travellers are feeding some restaurants, hostels and similar - but - if we would visit that country with our family, using the tourism industry inside of 2 Weeks, nice Hotels, nice restaurants, tours, trips - we would spend more, and more people would be able to have a job, income, paying tax and so on.

No, we cant even start to do ethical tourism (also not by plane, train, bike). It seem to be even unethical to be so priveligated to think about that topic.

But we can try to living and traveling with more sustainability...

Surfy

:devil2:

Maybe there are other methods of travelling ethically. I will admit that this is just imagination at the moment but I do plan to find out. Most of the conversations centers around money - and that is part of the story. But maybe there's more. Maybe there are other ways of giving.

It is impossible to live without doing harm. As we walk, we kill. To eat is to kill. To live in a physical body is to do harm. It takes resources to live.

For me this trip is less about travel and more about the honest exploration of being human. What does it mean to be alive? I'll be filming, creating music, seeking those with wisdom, and magic places where earth power resides. I'll be seeking stories and other ways of looking at life. All while expressing a true and honest love of being alive. But more. An honest wish for all humans to understand suffering. The nature of mind. And seeking meaning in every moment.

Then sharing this with the world. Free. I am currently also seeking a way to monetize this so that the people who share and help create can receive financial gain through donations from organizations and individuals. This is tough one as I'll not be around for long times...but the intent is clear.

To tell others stories. Record and produce their music free, and help publicize their art. All art. Written, drawn, and played. To seek wisdom from others, and share it.

The power of video and the ability to share on a world stage can be life altering. This is the more important purpose of my leaving the comfort and security of home, my lovely and wonderous family of friends. To use my talents and greatest loves, music, motorcycles, and travel combined into an ongoing story and exploration of not the world - but of the internal odyssey.

Ya, I know how this must sound to some...but I can't help it. I've been prepping for three years now to get ready to go. I'm selling everything, closing my business, thinking deeply about the why. What am I? Why would I do something like this? How am I going to do it? I'm close.

As I explained earlier somewhere - I am main caregiver for my 90 year old mother, who in the last 2 months has experienced a serious decline in her abilities. She suffers from dementia. She is my anchor to this place, and when she passes - I'm off. Its not because I hate where I am or what I'm doing - its just time. I never want to see the sun rise or fall in this place again.

I have a spiritual life that is not rooted in any religion. The closest is to Buddhism, but neither am I a Buddhist. And this voyage is a reflection of that. It is NOT a seeking, or running away, or a trip, or a motorcycle adventure. For me, it is a manifestation of life energy converted into motion, and expression. Carl Jung said - "Maybe the purpose of life is to shine a light on the darkness of existence".

I shine my light - for whatever its worth. At least I try.

Very nice words, a nice vision - but at the end - it is not more. It also not have to be more.

You try something fresh, something new, something growing, a "thing" you try to monetarize - it will never be ethical at the end. Look clearly as it "as is", not "as it should be". It will be your baby, your company.

Yes, you could try to "made the difference" too while travelling, but you cant be so productive, so helpful as you can be at home. Where you (can try to) understand how the people think, how you can help them in the best way.

This will not get easier abroad, with different cultural background.

To create a plattform where people are able to create content and able to monetarize it, that is exactly how youtube, tiktok and other brands work. They earn cash, but they allow too the content creators to optain cash (too in poor countrys).

Yes you can do something near similar, what will work - but just if you look at it as a business, a company - not ethical bull*it. Think about how many millions did vanish till some today popular Online Services - was able to create cash (too for content creators).

Surfy

There are some tough calls to be made for sure, and a lot of moral judgments and ambiguity. Personally I keep a few guidelines in mind:

- Just being a decent person. Making sure that I'm not acting entitled. Being aware of different norms and being accommodating of that. Just basic stuff.

- Not engaging in voluntourism, i.e. volunteerism that is more of a burden than a help. If I want to help, I donate to an organization instead.

- Not supporting services which rely on the commodification of animals. More often than not, these animals are being mistreated, and this treatment is often deliberately hidden from clients and thus even more difficult to identify. No animal exists for my personal pleasure and entertainment, and I don't need to be supporting that.

- To the greatest extent possible, not supporting businesses which engage in human rights violations or the commodification of people/cultures. Indigenous cultures in particular tend to be commodified for tourists. Sex tourism is an obvious one to avoid. Anything that turns people and their lives into zoo animals or objects, or that directly endangers them for my benefit, is something that I have no business supporting.

- Being aware of environmental impacts. By far the easiest way to do that is to limit meat consumption and to minimize travel by plane, especially short haul flights (the train is better anyway). Those two things have a far bigger impact than anything else I could do, and I don't need to go too far out of my way for them.

The "boycotting countries" issue is a minefield in and of itself. It's often a bigger statement to go/not go somewhere when something is escalating and in the news, such as going to Russia right now, or going to Myanmar last year. Ultimately though, visiting a country does not equate to an endorsement, and it's nearly impossible to avoid indirectly supporting some forms of oppression, even when you aren't travelling. There are also marginal benefits your presence might bring, as is generally the case when there's more interaction in the world. All in all though, I'm not generally of the boycott mindset.

There's a lot of sense in your post and it covers pretty much my take on the subject (although presented more concisely than I've ever done, even to myself). Environmental impact is a particularly tricky one though as what is practical and what is sensible don't always meet in the middle. A case in point - a couple of weeks ago my son and his family had to travel from Grenoble in France to Copenhagen. A flight would have taken slightly over an hour (in the air anyway). Being environmentally conscious they decided to go by train. It took over 30hrs, three changes and a load of hanging around on station platforms. The sleeper reservation they had booked for the section through Germany was cancelled for reasons they still don't understand and they spent the night trying to sleep on the floor - with a 1yr old. I agree we need to be more aware of what impact our travel plans have on the environment but I'm not sure the carbon they saved was worth that experience.

As motorcycle travellers I can't really see that any amount of awareness makes up for the fact that we are basically on extended holidays only made possible by burning petrol. But the way I look at it, you can't have it all.

True, though that makes it even more important we make positive changes in other parts of our life to balance the impact.

A slightly different task on it is that your environmental impact whilst travelling is probably going to be less than if you were staying home. So:

1. The food you eat probably has been grown closer to where you have eaten it than when you were at home
2. If you sleep in a tent then you heating will be zero compared to the heating you would have had on at home - obviously more so in winter but as there is a tendency to ensure that you aren’t travelling through an area in it’s winter season then the further you travel from home the lower your relative carbon footprint
3. You are likely to be using a lower consumption vehicle than when at home and that balances off the extended mileages
4. Your opportunity to use equipment that requires power is significantly reduced when travelling compared to being at home

Now, whilst I am not saying that you should go green by going travelling, I strongly suspect that by travelling you may actually be doing less harm to the environment than if you stayed at home.

The next bit is possibly the most contentious part - remember that one of the worst things that you can do in terms of carbon footprint is to have children. The answer is, therefore, to travel but by push bike as the pressure from the saddle has been proven to lower the sperm count so lowering the chances of reproducing and lower carbon footprint whilst still seeing the world.:innocent:

Bunch of hippies the lot of you :devil2:

By this measure the most environmentally friendly transcontinental travellers were Ghengis Khan's lads. Ate locally, reduced the carbon boot prints of just about everyone they met (permanently), barely touched fossil fuels.

Simple truth, the planet cannot support 8 billion ACU's and Ford V8 pick-ups and humans do not collaborate outside their social groups. The other 7 billion people who are living in mud huts sure as **** aren't going to step aside while we wring our hands and decide between a Tesla and a bicycle made in a brown coal powered factory though, they'll be grabbing the first ACU they can. The human race is going to breed itself into oblivion and the survivors of the resource wars will just start the process again.

Go enjoy the world as it is, spread a little happiness , you won't change the outcome.

Andy

Agreed, except we can take steps to reduce our impact, we can reduce our carbon footprint and we can still travel. Part of the environmental debate is ensuring that we stop burning fossil fuels indiscriminately - and we can relatively easily - we just need to decide to. This is a societal decision and people will need to accept that there are going to be changes - there will be industries that disappear, new industries and those that adapt to the new energy sources.

As individuals we need to as well as the costs of heating our homes is going through the roof - hopefully not due to lack of insulation. It is estimated that 25% of UK energy consumption is domestic heating lighting etc (excluding transportation) - controlling that will help control bills for individuals. That is why it is important that new houses integrate energy saving and generation technologies at the outset - so have solar panels for electricity and hot water, well insulated, use rainfall to flush toilets etc - all can be built in at little or no extra cost but they make a massive difference to the running cost and environmental impact of the house.

The same applies to new industrial buildings they should have, as a matter of course, have solar panels so that they generate electricity and feed the grid - it is not rocket science but the way some politicians speak you would think that you are asking the home owner to wear a hair shirt - how those politicians must have reacted when people decided that having a roof on a house was a good idea would be interesting to know.

Yes, there will be changes over a relatively short period of time but the alternative is even less rosy.

You're right Andy. The next bike co to bring out a V8 gets my business. :rofl:

I dont know, if the use of solar in the UK really helps, compared to use them in an latitude area with more sun.

To build a solar panel, to recycle them after 12 years (hopefully, currently they did end in the regular trash bin) - use also a lot of energy.

The whole discussion about Greta and the world who needs less CO2... I just remember about the forest dieback and the acid rain in the 80`s. We children was so anojed about, had bad dreams about the end of the world....

I`m not shure, how the people will discuss the C02 issue in 2050..

We are able to transplant organs, but we still didnt cant say how the weather will be in 15 days or if the next step will be a heat /ice age timeframe.


Wise words!

Surfy

no responsibility, just ride unless you're priest. doh

Have a look at this website - it gives a daily update on the energy mix being used. Today, 6 May 2022, it is overcast in the UK but solar is still generating around 18% of the UK energy needs. It also isn't very windy and the turbines are generating around 19%. Gas is kicking in 53% and other options - nuclear / biomass etc - are kicking in sufficient to allow us to export electricity to continental Europe.

We can transplant organs and as you say we struggle to give accurate forecasts 15 days out - however the body is not changing as quickly as the planet's climate systems and there are far more factors involved in the weather than in a transplant - also the recipient has to have drugs to stop rejection and the donor rarely comes out alive.

I feel spending money in that country or region really helps locals and the economy per se.So, you actually make a huge contribution to their livelihood.I know so many economies thrive on tourism.Incase you are not very comfortable with this idea then instead of donations opt for volunteering which actually gives instant gratification.