Frustration buying a bike - advice
 

Well. I thought I had a deal on a motorcycle but things got weird. I watched as the bike was rolled onto the floor - not even in the system yet....but going up for sale. Its what I'm looking for, a BMW F800 GS - 2013....I was told to come back a few days later - so I did. Sat and talked to SalesDude and although is was early, he said the price would be between 8000 and 8400. Ok. There's the bike, nice panniers on it, and I'm still in. I waited another few days and went back to purchase the bike...as we are walking by, Terry calmly states that the panniers are NOT included. WHAT! This is the first time this is mentioned - as I 'm walking down to purchase....The bike is sitting on the floor, with panniers! This is a deal breaker. If I'd been told right away - this issue would not have occurred....deal would have been clear at the outset - but that's not what happened. So Terry states he'll see what he can do, and wheel and deal and get back to me. Today I get the call that the deal is no panniers, no break in price, and another $500 if I want the panniers. You may understand my frustration. But, the bike price is fair. Here's the rest of the story. This was not just a bike. I was also looking at purchasing full set of Klim Badlands Pro - and a shuberth C4 Pro helmet....This is another basically $3500....When asked if Sales could meet me part way, I was told no. Fine. This business is going to turn down 13,500 worth of business over $200 - ok then. Guess you don't want my money that bad - and of course the bike will sell.....But this whole thing leaves me feeling pissed off. I have bought there before...Am a returning customer.

Ok, above is what I started to send to the shop. You know, I just want to be dealt with fairly, and that's not how I'm feeling. There are a LOT of bikes out there. Should I wait? Should I buy? Am I being petty?

What think the community?

Walk away.

OK, they stuffed up the deal and accidentally offered too low a price. Maybe somebody else came in and offered more. Either way do you want to reward this behaviour and have to deal with these clowns if something is wrong with it?

The only way I wouldn't walk away is if this was the last suitable bike in the country. Then I'd take the bike without the panniers. Let them sell them on the auction site.

Andy

Not sure what it's like in the US but in the dealership I work out there is no discount at the mo because they dont have to . There arent any bikes , we are literally supplying bikes as they are ordered....want a Ducati good luck with that . Obviously some models will get discounted as they arent popular , you could consider that ? But demand is strong and I believe it will go nuts once lockdown is eased as there is tons of pent up demand , certainly if last year is anything to go by .
Best of luck in your search....

If you like the bike... It is not fair, but on the end... they can. I will buy only the bike, other stuff no, not from that place.

Changing the terms at the last moment, or saying for any reason "I'll bring it to my manager and see if he ok's it," are standard sleazy sales techniques. So are mysterious last-minute added charges that were never mentioned before, or dragging out the process until you're too hypoglycemic and addled to think clearly and will sign anything just to get it done.

When they need your business, you're in position to refuse to be treated this way. When you're totally hooked on whatever they've got, they've got all the power and they generally know it. I always advise standing on your principles because they'll change when sleaziness costs them, not before--that will benefit us all. On the other hand, sometimes it's best just to live in the real world, do the best you can, and get on with your life.

Mark

buying the bike
 

when I went to buy my bike for riding around the world in 1999, I had a look at five different bikes ... the last one I looked at was the most expensive (25% over market value) and when I saw it I knew this would take me around the world ... the private seller would not come down on the price. After talking to a good friend in the evening over some beers, the friend said that I should buy it if it feels right. So next day I phoned the seller and bought the bike for the price he wanted and I never regretted it.

... as Markharf said, buying from a dealer you need to be prepared for their tricks. I would recommend, as Cholo did above, just buy the bike (if you still feel its the right one) without panniers and no gear.

Just my 2c worth today.
Enjoy your ride, it will start soon
mika :scooter:

If you think the seller is sleazy before you make the purchase. What of it when you come back and there is a problem with the bike?

If I saw a bike on a show room floor, I would assume that everything attached to it was what was offered in the price, unless told differently or that there was reason for me to assume differently (i.e. through a list of extra equipment, with the racks not being on that list). Likewise, I would not assume that anything not on the bike would come with the purchase.

However, $500 for a set of great panniers and rack, including not having to mount them or pay someone to do it for you - it is a good deal.

Decision made. I'm walking from the deal. The last thing I want is at the very beginning to have a bad feeling about how buying the bike went. Is this logical - no. But the bottom line for me is that there are a LOT of bikes out there, and MY bike will come. Patience.

Thanks all.

You have to LOVE the bike - and that starts with the first experience, buying it. Good move to walk away imho.

Agree, and thanks. The hunt continues.....

I've had similar happen to me. I know it's just petty of me - but that is exactly the sort of thing that would make me get up out of the chair in the sales office and tell them, "I'm going to give someone else my money" and walk away.

Yep, it's a measly $200 in a $10000+ sale, but it feels like you're trying to squeeze me like a lemon. Ugh.

Having sat on both sides of the sales desk, there are a few reasons for the price rise.

It sounds like the salesmen only estimated the price in the first place. It was probably the managers decision on the final list price. The error is that he quoted you an estimated price that wasn't finalised. But then you were asking for a price for a bike that wasn't even appraised or even in their system.

I don't think you can complain because you didn't get the price you wanted to pay. If you see something and the price is right, then you should have signed the paperwork there and then. But you couldn't because it wasn't for sale then.

It doesn't sound like there was any kind of verbal contract. Just a salesmen giving you an estimation of what the bike was going to cost from a passing conversation.

I don't think any dealer really sets out to trick people into paying more for something once they've agreed on a price. They simply wouldn't be in business for very long if they did.

Interesting, Ted. In the US this is the norm, not the exception. It takes all sorts of forms, and there are usually multiple attempts within the same transaction. If that's really not the way it works in the rest of the world, I'd be interested to hear about it.

In a world where internet reviews make and break business overnight and customer satisfaction is so powerful, I didn't think this could happen anymore.

We don't know who the retailer is. If it was a BMW main dealer, then I know from my experience in the BMW network that BMW are really hot on customer satisfaction. 'Dealer standards' they call it. Playing games like this would have their franchise stripped from them pretty quickly as it affects their brand reputation.

BMW only sell their horrifically over-priced and unreliable bikes so easily as they literally lick the boots of their customers.

I don't know anything about the US system though.

I don't know about the bike side but in the car dealerships we've certainly had that feeling. It's a kind of faux, slight of hand servility masquerading as 'industry leading service' that doesn't sit well with me. I feel like I've had a blanket of obfuscation thrown over me on the back of free cups of coffee and comfortable seats, while at the same time we're having the financial wool pulled over our eyes because the salesman is 'so nice'.

Every time I come out of the dealership I feel as though I've been 'done', yet a week or so later the emails asking 'was everything to your satisfaction' come flooding in. What can you say - 'yeah, the coffee was good, the salesman didn't swear, didn't smell, car didn't break down' that's about all. Underneath it all it still feels like Arthur Daly economics, just with a new coat of paint.

Enjoy exercising consumer power by walking away! Also, it is perfectly OK for you to inform others about your experiences.

The main problem here is a lack of sensible decision making on their part. I would expect that they make at least 20% on the helmet and suit. That means around $1000 in profit (less the discount you would accept) that they were losing by not giving you a good deal. However, in dysfunctional organisations, floor level sales people are not allowed to make those decisions. From that, you can also assume that the same goes for their mechanics (who will not be empowered to let you jump to the front of the line to get a small emergency fixed quickly), support people (who will not be allowed to advocate for you) etc. So as a customer, this is a clear sign that you should stay away.

Verbal contracts are worth precisely the paper they were written on. There isn't a contract here because there is no consideration. A deposit paid and/or receipt given would drive a different discussion.

Styles of selling vary. The Bavarian Suited Lizard is not a species I especially like but some obviously do. My last experience with BMW was a sales manager and he calmed it down no end when the coffee was declined over looking at the bike and we got to discussion on latching service lights. This was the first time I'd set foot in a BMW showroom for 20 years and the first time I'd come out not feeling like buying bleach and a wire brush.

I've made the error I think these guys might have made. Misquotes happen. You have to explain, ask forgiveness and offer what you can. In this case you'd hope to balance the clothing margin and not tell the customer.

I wonder if this bloke was on a bonus structure? It causes very odd behaviour. Sales managers will wreck deals like this if it will push the lizard just over the line for a huge pay out. Its a bad sales team that thinks this way and usually means someone won't be there much longer.

Andy

It's incredibly rare that a salesman won't be on commission. It's pretty much unheard of these days unless you're in a small independent.

I have been walking on sales floors in different industries and positions all my life.

What happened to you shows an incident of a contemporary fully controlled sales system. These systms produce sales managers who are only allowed to sell bikes which are in the system. Every deal has to be approved by the leading manager - typical 4 eyes principle in sales organisations. It should be clear that their sales managers have only a very small room for own negotiations. Profitloss and win is clearly defined through margin guidelines in the system and affects the commission rate top down the company heirarchy. This is a common thing in sales systems.

But your salesman is an idiot. Why did you have to come back and ask? If a customer shows clearly interest to a bike, I`ll get his data and I call him asap as the bike is in the system. A good sales man takes every chance to prepare a future deal every time he recognize it! Because he knows that can`t get every deal every time and that acquisition cost time and nerves.

If my sales managers won`t act like this with their "walking in" leads, I fire them at the third time I notice.

Every sales man should be able to explain the situation with the price difference and additional costs of panniers - just a question of his eloquent skill. A good salesman know the hints and traps of system driven sales system and so he know how to avoid getting in a situation like this. Yours didn`t - a second and clearly sign of lack of professionalism after not hunting the deal!

If a customer offers to buy additional gear with often means bigger margins on the piece, a good sales manager will negoiate promptly with his senior. There is a lot he can offer: additional parts to complete your bike for traveling, a special service, training lessons and for sure at last a discount. Yours did`t either for what reason ever!

A good sales manager will always offer something with high price which includes a high margin and which will give him a scope for the deal. He will set up a deal and wrap your total price in persuasive package. That`s how selling works - ask the customer what he desires and use the customers arguments to let him benefit from from your deal!

Because all this didn`t happen I assume that the commission and profit rate on the used bike was very poor. And I assume that the customer who sold in the GS got a better discount than usual for the new bike he ordered. That brought pressure to price of your desired bike. This is caused only by the sales system which handles the price and commisions to force sales man to be mainly margin focused.

Most of my work as a head of sales is focusing and raising the net profit rate while I have to find a balance in satisfying customers with acceptabel prices/Services and my sales crew with a good commission and of course in building up the brand!

What I find most interesting is that you're describing in positive terms the same thing I was when I wrote (earlier in the thread) "Changing the terms at the last moment, or saying for any reason "I'll bring it to my manager and see if he ok's it," are standard sleazy sales techniques. So are mysterious last-minute added charges that were never mentioned before, or dragging out the process until you're too hypoglycemic and addled to think clearly and will sign anything just to get it done."

In other words, it sounds like you're quite enamored of the sales techniques I find so abhorrent. I'm grasping for explanations, because you're framing this in terms of satisfying the customer, while my direct experience has involved walking out--with or without a completed sale--feeling like I've been had. Perhaps it involves something about the attitude which accompanies those trips to the sales manager's office and the attempts to assemble a "persuasive package."

I've been much happier on the one occasion when I searched by internet for the best available deal, committed, then traveled by train to a city 250 miles away to pick up my new car. I was in and out of the dealership in short order, there were no surprises, and I saved a fair bit of money. I'd have walked right out the door if presented with any surprises, especially if described in terms of my self-interest.

I'm genuinely intrigued by these discrepancies. In the US, car salespeople are generally considered rather low on the ethical ladder. This being the age of multiple, overlapping truths, I assume there is validity in all sorts of perspectives. On the other hand, I doubt most customers leave vehicle dealerships thinking "I love the way they used my arguments to set up a deal which benefited me!"

Mark

Mark,
I am not enamored in these sales technics. I am a salesman for more than 3 decades and my job since ever is to increase sales.

That is my way of thinking and what I tried to describe in my analysis of what happened to you and which mistakes were made in the sales process. As I wasn`t eyewitnessing, I could only say what I understand by your lines. I could have easily burst the limit of marks from this forum software with a detailed answer and analysis of your case. Saying this to make you understand that I tried keep it simple.

Sales isn`t always fun, It´s a tough business with a lot of competition. A lot of salesman and companies sell like hell to earn their living and profit. That is how capitalism in free-market economy functions. And this is also the reason why many buyers aren`t satisfied and did get frustrated when they do the recap after their shopping.

I always try be in balance in making my deals, at earning the margin while I have to satisfy and to create (!) needs or wishes of customers. In the same time I have to keep my sales staff in a good mood with a suitable income . But in the end of all my activities my CEO and all shareholders will only look to numbers. Eat or to be eaten we call this situation in german.

How does my profession influence my shopping?
Honestly, I am the worst and unpleasant customer you can think of. Because I hate shopping in any kind. I know how to play the game as a seller but I hate to be in the shoes of a customer. What has to do with my knowledge about some branches of trade, their products and sales techniques. Because of this I inform myself as much as possible about a product and I think carefully about my real needs before I buy.

So my advise to you for fighting the sales situation is:
Be prepared and have knowlege about the product, competitive products and the market. Dont`show this to the sales guy and have a list in your mind or phone to ask him a lot of questions about everything, don`t worry about to be seen as a stupid one by this! Be smart and show yourself as ignorant!

A salesman who has to answer a lot of questions will give you much more information as he wants to reveal usually in a sales situation. Remember always that a salesman will never give more information to you as he will find necessary in the situation. It´s not his job to make you clever, it´s his job to be competent and to sell you something. Which is much easier for him as lower your level of knowledge is. And it´s your job to hide (individual) informations that the sales guy can turn into a sales techniques to get your money! He must take the challenge to get his commission; if he doesn`t, leave and buy elsewhere, there are no monopols for anything!

Never buy during your first visit, leave the showroom and go for a coffee to overthink what you really want and to make you a room for a balanced decision.

That is how I do it if I want to buy or I did with the mororcycle sales guys before C19 shut down the showrooms.