The HUBB - We have to talk about money
 

Dear Hubbers,

The banner showing the text above - I think its time to talk about money now. To run a forum these days where other people create content for free is like owning a gold mine. Even some people using adblockers, its financing itselfe easily.

I was a lonely traveler somewhere in the jungle. Everybody i knew was affraid of africa and rather wanted to spend his limited lifetime in a save office to pay for the rates of their expensive bikes than to join me on my adventure trip. Then i heard about the HUBB. I was traveling long before and did not need the forum but it was nice to meet other people with the same interests. I joined many HUBB Meetings in Germany, Swiss, SouthAfrica, Chile and Thailand. We sat at the fire cooking our meal while talking about repairing a bike in the mud or were watching and giving presentations about or own trips. In the evening we pitched our tent somewhere on a cow field and spent the night under a million stars or in the snow for free.

Now it all changed. The target group changed. To also attract scared people, the HUBB meetings moved to save lodges or take place on official campinggrounds, were sunday riders enjoy a 20 Dollars meal at the restaurant and take a hot shower, before they go to sleep in their room or chalet. Because the price of the HUBB meetings went up to 10 times the price of other bike meetings, real long term travelers cant afford to attend them anymore. 104 Euro per person for just one weekend. Its not about travel experience anymore...its big bussiness now: Who has the most expensive bike and the most expensive gear?

Luckily there are many free alternative forums like advriders or facebook and many cheaper bike meetings, clubs and communities out there, were its not all about earning money...

So what are you saying exactly?

This is possibly one of the most ill-informed posts I have seen on this site, running a forum is not a goldmine and there is no fortune to be made from advertisers, they just help to keep the show on the road.
Yes there are some people on here who have more money and can afford a little luxury on their trips or at a weekend rally but there are many others who make do with older bikes, secondhand equipment and meals cooked over a camping stove, they are all motorcycle travellers and the help this site provides is free to everyone.
You are correct in saying that there are other sites such as Advrider but expect to find other people there with different options to yours about how to travel, what is a suitable budget or what bike is best and don't be surprised if the owners make money from it either, it is their business.

Thanks for articulating this. It appears that ta-rider is a bit salty that everything is not free. The last time I checked, life isn't free. This is the Johnson's site, and those who can afford to pitch in to keep this place up and running most likely will. Clearly there is no thought into how much time and money it takes to build and maintain a website like this.

All the post are from "Registered Users"
Interesting?

I for one would love to pay $20 for a year to help the site owners out.

Not that I don't have the money, but with no access to Paypal or a visa card here in China makes it a bit hard to pay.
If you had Wechat wallet I pay now?

So far, Grant is just asking folks to pay a few bucks if they are in a position to do so.
If you are not in a position to pay, don't. I'm not sure why there has to be a debate about it.

I for one hope that Grant and Susan are making a reasonable (or even a substantial) amount of money from running this site and the associated activities like the Baskerville Hall meeting and its siblings. The level of commitment, effort and sheer hard work that goes into it has to have some reward otherwise why would they bother.

If Grant came on here tomorrow and said he's shutting the whole lot down because the money's run out or he's lost interest, everyone planning an overland trip would be a lot worse for it.

It's a fallacious argument to say "real long term travelers can't afford to attend". Unless you've spoken to a significant percentage of the world's overlanders you don't know that. People work out their own balance between cost and benefit and for some the entry price may not be worth what they think they'll get out of it. That's their decision in the same way that the cost of a ferry or a hotel or a visa or anything else an overlander may have to buy is considered. It doesn't mean they can't afford it. I considered attending two USA events a while back but decided my priority was travel rather than talk about travel. Over the three days each event was on I probably spent the entry cost somewhere else on booze or fuel or accommodation but of course that comes out of a different budget.

A few days ago one of the other (smaller) sites I visit put out a similar cash call. After some questioning about site advertising etc the owner explained the situation. It cost him $350 / month to pay for hosting. He got back $175 (on average) / month from advertising and $75 from donations. The £100 / month shortfall, he'd been funding out of his own pocket for nearly 20 yrs. Why would anyone do that? Even if he'd been making $100 / month it would be little reward for the value the site has to the people it serves. It's the same here. If Grant and Susan pack up are any of us going to take it on? As Joni Mitchell said: 'you don't know what you've got till its gone'.

I was happy to support the site with a "financial" contribution i do have most the gear and very little idea but in a very short time have enjoyed 2 HUBB meetings
and was made to feel welcome and advice was given free so this was a way to give something back to Grant Susan and the community.

Dear ta, what do you do for free? That takes time, effort, and your own money? For the last 21 years? Me-nada, nada, hell no nada. I took my first trip in 1974. At that time there was very limited info that it was even possible. AAA informed me that there were no roads connecting the countries of S America, I finally got a National Geo map that said otherwise. Now, on this site, you can get all the info you need (sometimes maybe too much) for free. Confession--I have been one of those who have looked for free. This post made me feel guilty, so I finally decided it was time to help the cause. Have a nice day.

Just want to tease all the GS owners.Dont tell me that you cannot afford the 20 USD for a year or 75 USD for 5 years.. The HU meetings are full of GS!:scooter:



Ok.. this is my story & my personal viewpoint.

I feel blessed and honored to have the chance to meet Grant & Susan during the HU Ontario Meeting 2015. We only talked for a while but I saw in their eyes some spark!


First point: Forums like Expedition Portal or HU or ADV are basically online communities for all of us who travel, dream to travel, plan for travels and so on. Overland Sphere does not count (its so poor in content and the admin so bad but anyway..)

There is some potential or opportunity to make some money out of it but again it depends on the content you provide to the community (and lots of other things obviously).

Lets narrow down the online sources of information about travel planning as well as inspiration and platforms to share your life time adventure.

Its either travel forums or FB groups, right? An they are FREE! No alternative at the moment.. Books, magazines and expos contribute as well to information, technical expertise and knowledge sharing but they come with a cost, right?

I am personally an old school guy (only 35 years old) and I love following forums instead of FB groups. The content is well organised, the search button does miracles, the administration/ moderation actually exists, and in some cases you get some family feeling. FB has not been designed for those purposes and it will take some time to deliver.

For those following ExPo Forum, you can clearly tell that its a business. Yes, there is tons of information but if you look deeper its more about brands and reviews than pure overland planning and there is a big overland corporation to back it up.

But it does not work the same for HU. We already know who is behind the scenes.

For me, this makes a huge difference.


Second point: Lets have a look at the audience who follow the forums and their online behavior. From my little experience, there are two big groups (of course there are more but these two prevail). The first one is this small percentage that is loyal to the forum (any forum), tries to infuse it with this family feeling because he feels that the forum is part of his family, he shares some understanding as well as technical information, experiences, pictures and so on. This is one of the two groups. Small in numbers but big in contribution and loyalty.

On the other hand, the second group which is big in numbers, are the people who are basically interested for planning only. So they register (or maybe they dont), they have some questions, they get their answers and puuuffffff.. they disappear. Big in numbers but poor in contribution.

I can see what Grant & Susan have achieved so far (everybody can see) and I can also see what they are expecting and what they are asking.


Third point: Information is for free. I am not sure if it must be for free (long discussion) but so far, knowledge and information is for free in various sources and forms. HU has a huge chunk of travel information and they didnt achieve it in a night. It took them a whole life. The only equivalent or alternative is travel literature and travel books (which have a price tag) that also have tons of info, knowledge and experiences for those who seek for this. But online stuff tends to be for free (either we like it or not).

To sum up, sources of travel information like HU exist and they are for free (so far). There is no differentiation of HU compared to other sources of travel info (so far).

With all respect to Grant & Susan amazing job all these years, for this "product" I am not willing to pay. If the "product" was premium & exceptional with some innovation and differentiation and the added-value would really make a difference in my long travel life, then I would pay not 20 but may 50-70 per year to support the product as well as allow the owners to make some reasonable profit out of it.

On the other hand, the HU meetings they organise all over the world is a great way to make some money. I have personally attended two for only one reason: to meet locals. Both in Canada & USA, the people we have met we are still in touch and they have become life-long friends. Both times, I gave a presentation because I could not afford paying (presenters get in for free) but for me it makes some sense. And I am sure that there are lots of people who can afford it. (teaser: those with the big GSs and the street tires). Plus, this target group craves for travel product like this so they dont mind to pay the 100-200 euro per meeting for a hot shower, a chalet, a hot meal. Not everyone wants to sleep in the woods, drive into the mud and eat noodles and eggs every night.

But having Grant & Sudan to talk about their adventures back in the 80s, YES, this is inspiration and you have to pay something for this.

For me, none of the big travel forums deserve a membership unless they change lots of things in the "product".

Maybe I am naive or short sighted but until today I thought that forum costs could be covered by advertising only. ExPo forum asks 1.5K for a Forum Vendor sponsor and 3K for a Forum Title Sponsor. And the forum is just full of vendors and title sponsors!

But for me, its so hard to convince people to pay for something that they can find somewhere else (most probably for free).

The world is changing. The same goes for travels. When Grant & Susan were travelling, there was no FB, HUBB, Google Maps, SPOT Messenger, SENA Bluetooth and the list can grow biiiiiiig.

Today, we are privileged to have an abundance of travel info but I think that we need to change the way it is shared, it is gathered and we need to add some value. Added value comes always with a price, right?

Finally, we have -as a community- to decide if and how we want to make money out of travels and overlanding. Someone writes a book, someone else creates a forum, someone else organises events, someone else does reviews and some others create products and services for all of us.

Same here. I’ve been meaning to contribute, but just didn’t get around to it. People put money in things they value. I think $20 a year is a very very small price to pay for the wealth of knowledge this place provides.

Dear Ta-rider,

Would you be kind enough to point us to the forum/site you're running which is a gold mine for you? Some financial statements would be helpful to bolster your claim. Thank you for your cooperation.

Also, would you care to elaborate on what a "real" long term traveler is? I'm a bit nebulous on the concept of one individual owning and defining this term.

OK (analogy time) why do you feel it necessary to stand up the local full service restaurant and tell everyone that there is cheaper food at McDonalds or even for free at the soup kitchen? Not everyone has the same needs and tastes.

We're all adults here and can make our own decisions about supporting the site or not. Some make life choices (and have better luck) which gives them more disposable income. This does not make them less of a traveler than anyone else. No one is required to support the traveling lifestyles of those with less money. Life ain't fair but watcha gonna do?

Lastly, there have always been extreme low budget travellers long before HU existed. They did just fine without HU back then and can easily choose not to participate here. The fact that you seem to lament what this community has become (in your eyes) but are still here and actively disparaging it is beyond puzzling to me. I tend to just leave places I don't like. HU is very unlikely to "go back" to what it was in the beginning. Everything evolves and communities who don't adapt to reality (masses of retiring baby boomers with money) is bound to fade into irrelevance.

Way to go Johnsons. You've done a great job, even though I'm sure it's quite thankless at times. I hope you manage to make some money off it for your retirement.

...Michelle

tsk, tsk :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3: :rolleyes3:


I understand you're just trying to be cheeky. But please understand, my dear fellow traveler, that my GS is 11 years old, has over 100,000Kms on the odometer along with rust and peeling/flaking paint. Also, please note that as a sporadically employed tradeswoman I simply can't afford a new bike every few years. Come to think of it "Ellie" is still running absolutely freaking well even after having been parked for 4 months (yes I live in an area where roads actually ice over in the winter) and even started up in a split second when I moved her to my new house :clap::punk::punk::punk::punk:

...Michelle

If nothing else, this thread inspired me to go and give Grant and Susan some money. :D

30 euros for a two-year contributing membership? I have most definitely gotten more than 30 euros' worth of benefit from HUBB!

The thread is back? and the likes are gone??

Mezo.

The thread never went away, and I see 21 likes at the top of the thread.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

Funny. Same here!

No, Mezo is right. The thread disappeared for a minute. The admin probably pulled it for review.

ta-rider
 

why was ta-rider banned again?


mika

I'd also like to know why ta rider (Toby) was banned. Yes, he can be a PITA at times, but always presents a different perspective, right or wrong. What HUBB rules did he violate?

I'm thinking Toby may not have priced out other forum's Rally events recently. ADV Rider is NOT FREE! They ALL cost money ... and for the most part they cost A LOT more than HUBB rallies.

ADV has both officially sponsored rallies and many others promoted by members. ALL cost money and prices for most have gone WAY up over last 10 years ... as have ALL rallies, including HUBB.

The first HUBB rally I attended in BC Canada was $35 for the weekend. (IIRC)
That was back in '03 or so. Sure, things are more expensive everywhere. What can we do about that? :innocent: Welcome to our wonderful Capitalist world!

Grant and Susan give a lot to rally participants ... and unlike ADV Rider, it's not all about presenting a College Frat Party skunk Drunk affair. :D:D:D

I haven't donated in a few years ... and when I did become a contributing member in the past, I had an issue with a former moderator ... which resulted first in me being banned, but then over ruled after admin intervention.

But my "Contributing Member" status was removed with 6 months still remaining and was never restored. Not a big deal and I imagine that moderating "moderators" takes a silly amount of time and effort.

Getting RTW overlanders to agree and get along is harder than herding Cats.
We are all rebels in a sense, probably don't agree on much.

bier

Its pretty easy to get banned on HU - post something "controversial" or that a moderator doesn't like or agree with. Some of the mods on this site are real dickheads (there - see how long I last now....).

Not sure what Toby's problem is in this case; he's free not to contribute if he doesn't want to and free to organize his own meeting if he wants.

Some rallies give free admission to travelers on the road on a trip too (dunno if the HUBB ones do as I've never been to one)....

ta-rider - Toby - deleted his own post, which deletes the thread, and wipes the likes, so please relike! :)

We decided to reinstate, partly because so many of you rebutted his comments so eloquently! We aren't hiding anything, we've always been as clear as we possibly can about finances.

I decided to ban him after a lengthy series of PM's with him, where he, well let's say he got up my nose repeatedly, and totally wasted my time trying to explain - at great length - the realities of the web, websites, and free lunches. He suggested that I must be driving a Porsche because we charge so much. He also requested that we let his girl friend in for free to events, including food and camping, because she's only there to keep him company! For information, Toby has NEVER paid a registration fee to attend an HU meeting, he's always come as a presenter or some other free category (kind-hearted organizers!), so free entry and t-shirt. He may have paid for food and camping since we moved the Germany event to an actual campground instead of a field behind a pub, and perhaps he thinks that should be free too, but surprisingly venues and caterers disagree!!

ta-rider violated rules - total waste of my time and a PITA. He drives the mods up the wall too - you don't see the stuff he posts that we get rid of.

Re your "Contributing Member" status disappearing - a function of the software is that when you're banned your status is set to "Banned" and when the ban period is over you are set to Registered User - usually. In theory and sometimes you get your old status back. :) Bug - probably, but I can't figure it out. All you really had to do was send me a note and remind me, and I'd have sorted it immediately. We DO appreciate your support Pat!


Herding cats - you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but it's a LOT! We have survived for over 20 years now, when most forums have died, generally because of insufficient moderation. I spend time on forums for forum owners, and a frequent subject of discussion is "how much moderation is enough?". Without going into great and boring detail, if you're not on top of it and nip problems in the bud, it will get away and cause huge problems and people leaving in droves because they don't agree with one side of the other - doesn't matter which.

Often we are accused of over-moderating, BUT we are almost as often accused of under moderating! As ALWAYS, you can't please everyone, so we aim for a middle ground, with a basic philosophy of "don't be an asshole" and you're fine. If you make someone mad, you're probably being an asshole, so expect to get an infraction / warning.

"Controversial" no, I disagree completely with that - now, HOW you post it could get you in trouble, yes. You can have any opinion you like, it's when you call people names because they disagree with your opinions that you cross the line.

As for dickhead moderators, it's all in the eye of the beholder. :) And while we have had problem moderators in the far past, those we have now, and for a number of years, are amazingly good, put in a huge amount of effort to keep this place spam-free, asshole free, and generally supporting YOU, so that it's a place you want to come back to and enjoy, and learn, and help others in the HU Community of travellers.

re Toby - that's only the tip of the iceberg re annoyances from Toby. He's been banned, warned, educated at greeeeaaat length many times. I've easily spent a couple of solid days on him, never mind the angst, lost sleep thinking of how to deal with him etc. NOT WORTH THE EFFORT of educating him.

Re free entry for travellers - while I get the intent, since ALL of our people are theoretically travellers, and many travel hundreds or thousands of miles to participate, where do we draw the line? Too hard, and since the ones on the road are in theory benefiting the most from the site, perhaps they should be happy to contribute a little to help keep the site going? IF they do a presentation, they get in free, AND a free top quality synthetic travel shirt, which they're probably in need of! Generally we find most are happy to pay, fully realising and understanding the value and economics, but we have little patience for those who think the world should pay their way "because they're travelling" and expect a free ride everywhere. Sorry, can't do that. WE can't travel for pleasure anymore BECAUSE we spend ALL our time AND money running the website and organizing the travellers meetings, thus supporting the travellers in a huge way.
THAT IS OUR CONTRIBUTION!

Given the very low amount of traffic on this site in comparison with other forums that have been around this long, I would expect that keeping things friendly would be a priority here so that new members aren't scared off ornery long-timers that are still hanging around.

Toby was quick to blast people that ride BMWs (or full size ADV bikes) as travel bikes in the downsizing thread, which comes across as ignorant and argumentative. Someone that assumes to categorize and stereotype all people based upon their motorcycle choice and then goes on to belittle them as being not able to have a real adventure is just plain obnoxious.

People like that do not contribute to the health of a forum.

The HUBB - We have to talk about money
 

QUOTES ABOVE


Really...!!!!????

Get your wallet out chap and show some appreciation. I’ve lost count of the times this site has done me good. At 35 years of age you still got a long way to go...!!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=MEZ;583725]
If he doesn't see the value in contributing then that's his choice to make. Leave it alone.

On the other hand, I can make a strong case as to why I chose to contribute. This site offers, to me, a wealth of information that I feel, if removed, would be a tremendous and irreplaceable loss. Yes, you could probably find answers by visiting a dozen other sites and getting tidbits of info here and there, but to have all of the information and content in one centralized location, and have a community to back it, is where I see the value. I am not looking for a finished "product" as that is unrealistic to me. I see my contribution as an investment in this place to keep the information bank open for more deposits from future travelers.

This site will only grow unless we stop watering it. We're investing in the future. bier

It was your post that i liked originally. and i knew the thread had vanished because i search all new post having my morning cuppa, but its all been explained now.

Mezo.

That's mighty generous of you! :smarts:
"product"? So that's how you see HUBB and Horizon's? A "product" to be bought and sold? And I suppose we readers here are nothing more than potential "paying customers" in your scheme?
Good luck with that business model! :rofl:

You seem to contradict yourself several times in your LONG rant!
(I thought I rambled on! ... are you sure you're not Irish? bier Man, you can talk!)

In what way is Horizons not a "premium" service? So what other travel web site DOES offer a "premium" service, in your opinion?

Innovation? Have you ever seen Grant's DVD series for new travelers? IMO, those are innovations at a premium level. But what they bring is also EXCEPTIONAL.

Tell me where else can you gather with experts and pick their brains and hear their stories ... first hand?

"Added value", (man, you want a HELL OF A LOT for free! :nuke:)

So, it's not enough for you to hear presentations IN PERSON from some of the most experienced and innovative motorcycle traveler legends in the world in your presence?

Grant has managed to bring the most important travelers in the world to his rallies at one time or the other over the last decade or more. Everyone from Ted Simon, Simon Gandolphi, Austin Vince, Lois Pryce, to Peter Forewood, Greg Frazier ... and dozens more travel luminaries over the years. Legends in the RTW travel community ... nearly ALL have appeared at HUBB events.
Look it up man, IMO, about as "Premium" as it gets.

If you can't learn and gain inspiration from these guys, then you may be brain dead. :thumbdown:

Are you mainly looking to find a way to make a quick buck here on HUBB?
You could be the guy ta rider is afraid of ... so he rants on regards the crass commercialization of the Adventure riding World.

But, IMO, Grant has steered HU away from this ... but the result is a small forum, but an important one, IMO.

I've seen this change coming on 20 years, and like ta rider, not all that happy. Not all travelers want to figure out how to make money from travel or from a web site or from other travelers ... and rallies that feature $500K USD UniMog's are not my cup of tea either. :thumbdown:

So, you're looking for business opportunities here, right? Fact is, most motorcycle travelers simply want to travel a bit, indulge in other cultures, see the sites, take photos, chill out and relax, renew and de-stress a bit ... NOT make a bundle of cash off other travelers. doh

I'm not a fan of venture capitalist types, sorry ... and hate to think of ADV Travel and HUBB as a "product" ... but I guess we are to some. :innocent:

For a big rally that gathers a lot of local hobby riders, it makes sense to give free admission to passing overlanders - they become an attraction, part of the programming, part of what sells tickets to others.

But consider the quality level of a gathering where overlanders have to pay the regular price because most of the participants are overlanders anyway. ;) I think that's the kind of gathering I would prefer to attend...

(Personal experience: I help organize a local convention for fans of Asian youth culture. I also host similar conventions in nearby countries. The big ones give discounted or free admission to performing cosplayers, because more performances mean bigger audience ticket sales. My convention, which is small, cozy, and densely packed with activities, does not - because our audience *is* our performing community!)

The last job in the world I wish to have? is a moderator on a motorbike forum.

You damned if you do and you're damned if you don't?

Lots of forums have two tiers of membership. Ordinary members have no access to PM or emails or certain value-added sections of files and information, POI files and the like. Full members pay a few pounds/dollars per year and get access to the lot. The owner could also recognise the value of certain members who are mostly givers of information that enhances the overall value of the forum and grant full membership at zero cost.

That way the site owners have a big incentive to keep things ticking over to encourage members to pay for the upgrade.

I think Tony Lee has point about finding a new strategy to encourage people to contribute wih money.

As I'm typing this and based on the stats of active users, there are about 4000 UNREGISTERED users using this website at the moment. They do use a lot of the servers ressources. Of course some of them are registered user that don't log in.
If the traffic of those 4000 people is not good enough to sustain revenu to pay for the extra servers ressources, maybe they should have a limited access and reduce the servers cost at the same time.

Also covering just the operation expenses is not enough. Grant, Susan and who ever is supporting the website should get some money to cover their time.

Patrick

As controversial as ta-rider is/was, I tended to appreciate his posts. The world of moto-adventure is a pretty big one, and there's plenty of room for all kinds of riders and all kinds of budgets.

I'll never be a Charley & Ewan expeditionist on a $25 grand motorcycle, but on the other hand ta-rider's shoestring and baling wire approach was a tad too cheap even for me - as I get older I find my aging bones appreciate a comfy bed and a dry roof at the end of a long day of riding.

Good for ta-rider though, for proving that a young person with lots of drive but little money can still go on a great adventure.

From having spent time on a number of different forums over the years, I feel that HU is more like a library than a saloon. People come to the library to learn and there is very little talk. Meanwhile, other forums of similar age focus more on the camaraderie. You get threads about bike builds, people purchasing homes, building garages, local photo tag games, all sorts of things. Much bigger audience.

I like your idea of paying to have access to a library.

Maybe all this is a good opportunity to think long term: One day Grant and Susan will decide to stop managing the website for various reasons. Having a new model to keep this website going is a good idea!

Patrick

Oh, that was only simile. I wasn't think that way, but yes, I like your way of thinking long term as someday HU will be passed on to new hands. I'm sure Grant and Susan have considered this as well.

In terms of paying for access to a library, I can't say I agree with that. The information that I share, and many many others share, is not meant to be exclusive to paying members. It's not a private club. But, I fully acknowledge that it takes money to keep the lights on...otherwise the library shuts down. The rates here are not unreasonable, not even close. Heck, I'll spend much more than $20 at the bar on a Thursday night. $20 for a year's membership is a drop in the bucket.

I'm not talking about a private club. The info needs to be available and affordable for anyone around the world.

If everybody visiting the website would offer a drink to Grant and Susan per year by paypal, we would not have this discussion.

Patrick

100% agree. I'm sure Grant does not have time to read every moderators comments on every thread. But if you DO read them, you can see the critics above expressed many times over throughout the forum.

Simply straying slightly off topic can bring a rebuke and not so subtle put downs.

Even if offering opinions ON topic, a certain mod will find fault and attempt to discredit the member and "warn" the forum against believing anything this member has posted.

Trust me, Docsherlock is correct.

Cholo, we were not talking about making real books. We were talking about the vision of the HU website: the info here is more like a library then a discussion forums likes other sites.

I think it's time for me to stop Brainstorming.

Patrick

:thumbup1::thumbup1:
I agree. Even though sometimes Toby is less than clear and he can be a bit of a pedant, (partly a function of language barrier), his comments can sometimes come off as offensive.

Is that against HUBB rules?

Toby is a legit veteran traveler with more years and miles than most. He is of the super budget variety. Not for everyone of course. But I can appreciate his perspectives even though I don't follow his guidelines. Takes all kinds ... and good ideas can come from anywhere.

Austin Vince is (or was?) against big money commercializing of ADV Travel, yet we don't see him banned or even questioned. Austin frequently makes cruel jokes at expense of the monied GS crowd, Ewan and Charlie et al ... yet no one comes after him. (Austin's film pedigree aides his world wide credibility)

In fact, if you've read Toby's posts for a long time, you can actually see similarities between Austin and Toby. The difference is Austin makes it all very humorous ... where Toby can be a little "too German" at times. doh

All to say it may be up to some interpretation.

Much as I'd love it to be true that there's 4,000 silent users browsing the forum, I fear you would find they are Google or other webbots searching and indexing content.

The nice thing about that is that instead of using the forum's search facility, you can search HUBB using Google—even for three letter terms not normally allowed. So try typing

site:horizonsunlimited.com tr6

and see what comes up!

________________

Someone wrote about mods banning people because they disagree with their point of view. This doesn't happen. The mods are quick to ban spammers, but it's rare to ban genuine bikers and any potential ban is fully discussed in the moderators' forum before it happens. I've just gone back over the posts in the mods forum and in the last two years since April 2016 there have been 22 infractions (warnings) and two banned—xfiltrate and now ta-rider.

Most of the 22 infractions were for being rude or abusive to other forum users.

I had this same discussion with my students today. It's all about tone and connotation. Because of the format here, voiceless written text, it can be sometimes impossible to detect sarcasm or the true meaning of what someone is saying. So you need to think about what you type before you click the post button.

It only further drives the point of Grant's earlier post. Don't be a dick. It's as simple as that.

Grant and Tim,
Thanks for giving us some insite into the moderation/banning process.
I enjoyed(although probably disagreed with) many of ta-riders and xfiltrates comments, and I can't imagine this site without mollydog.
Having said that, I see that banning is not done without a lot of thought.
Tim,
I followed your advice and was rewarded. I think I am going to have to buy Paul Pratt's book.

Since someone works his ass to offer & organise something (like Grant & Susan), puts a price tag & has an accountant, for me its a product or a service so its a business which has risks, profits & of course losses. And have my respect.


After all, too much criticism & too much assumptions my friend.. Why?

Because we disagree?

I was manning the bookstore at an HU meeting once and tried to sell a copy to Ted Simon and delude myself that I nearly succeeded.

See the comments by Tim Cullis please. If you have any specific issues with anyone, user, Gold Member, moderator, me, as ALWAYS, REPORT THE POST!! It then goes into the Moderators Private Forum for all moderators to see and discuss. We DO NOT delete those posts, so the discussion is always available for the record.

Moderators have expressed to me in response to this that they are open to "moderation" and adjustment as needed in their own posts. Remember, they are human and can get annoyed just like all of us. At the same time they are very aware that whatever they post reflects on HU too.

If you want it private, not for all moderators to see, send me a PM or an email, and I'll get back to you as quickly as possible. Can't always be fast - for instance today was a doctors visit in town - good news, the cancer is sitting still and behaving, so I'm good for a long time yet.

"suspended if I'm an idiot" - noted! :) Banned would be very unlikely, and if so you'd have earned it many times over.

See the thread about this - a second thread opened by Cholo in website feedback: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...978#post583819

Upgrades done through the Subscription system are instant. :) AND a BIG thank you to Cholo for his Lifetime Membership, we're extremely gratified to see that kind of support. Keeps us working :)

For the record, I'm 69. Ride carefully? Usually... ;)

A "succession plan" is something we talk about often, if anyone is interested in anything in this area let me know. At some point in the not too far distant future we want to travel some more ourselves. :)

See my comment above re Moderators.

As for time to read posts, no, I have none unless it's brought to my attention. We both work 7 days, 8 hours minimum often more, just trying to keep up, we read what we must, and trust the community and the mods to keep it civil, supportive, helpful and productive for all.

I hope all that makes sense!

We have ALWAYS said that we will never charge for access to the site. We believe that what makes the site great is the users contributions. We don't believe they should be charged to see their own info, but if they want to support the site, wonderful. So we are depending on people realizing that there's no free lunch, and it all has to be paid for by someone, somehow.

We are facilitators and sometimes educators, but you guys are the ones on the road with the latest up-to-date information, information I couldn't possibly collect if I spent a lifetime on the road, as it's out-of-date in such a short time!

What we need to be able to do what we do is memberships, advertisers, and people buying our Achievable Dream series, calendars, and coming to events both as participants but also as presenters to pass on their knowledge.

For those who don't understand what it takes to run a site of this size and complexity, (I know some people think we have real jobs and this is a hobby!) it's FULL time plus for me since 1998, Susan also since 2009, and Grace part-time for the last three years, plus we have "contract" people to do the graphics, video editing and coding for site upgrades. We SHOULD do a lot more than we do, (I have a list of about a million things to do) and a whole lot of things would be a lot better than they are, but there just isn't enough money to pay the bills to do that, or the time, so we just do what we can, when we can. Progress is being made, slowly, not always visibly, but progress is made. :)

In the end, HU has to do more than cover it's costs, it has to pay our rent, our food, and eventually our retirement, although it will be somewhere cheap and warm! :)

See you in Thailand then? we just need to get then HUBB meeting going again here in Thailand.

:palm: