This would have been a great idea at the NEC, but all the new ATs were secured to the floor better than my house! The Honda guy I spoke with wasn't keen when I mentioned weight, and classed the NC700X and CB500X bikes as mid weight off road bikes doh. Even with the RR kit, the 500 is hardly much lighter than my 800, and my bike has more power for my every day riding. I'd asked him about the possibility of a mid weight AT.

It basically weighs the same as an R1200GS. I appreciate it's probably way more reliable :innocent:, but that's just a bit too much for me. The main reason I went for my F800 over the 12 was due to weight. Just moving the damn thing around the garden, let alone riding off road!

At the moment, I think I'll stick with my current bike. Having upgraded the suspension and improved the seat (amongst other things), there doesn't seem to be any need to change.

I did say to the Honda gent that I really hope the new ATs sell well; if this is the case, it only adds to the commercial viability of 'adventure' bikes, and who knows what might appear in the future? :welcome:

Get your order in soon, they will sell out almost certain. You will probably get the bike by April/May according to internet gossip. Go For It! bier

Certainly some truth in this. bier AT has gotten unusually positive reviews. As a former moto journalist (20 years with City Bike, San Francisco) I attended many bike intro events, all over USA and even Europe.

I suggest readers here not take too seriously any initial launch reviews ... they are almost ALWAYS GOOD. This true for nearly any bike!
Even the Triumph Bonneville America (which I loathed) got favorable reviews after it's launch attended by 60 moto journos in Georgia, USA. (Triumph USA, headquarters)

The US mag guys were laughing, making rude comments about the bike ... and stunting it for fun when Photogs were not around. Yet ... NOT ONE OF THEM wrote a harsh review of a bike they clearly thought was a joke. Last laugh on us ... the bike sold well for Triumph! doh (I gave a somewhat negative review as our mag are not fans of Cruiser wannabe bikes) So here, your point is well taken, but they never trash anyone, running ads or not.

I would also state that moto journos are not paid off, nor coerced into writing favorable reviews or pressured by bosses. Sorry boys, just does not work that way. Bikes are generally SO GOOD ...it's really down to personal taste, riding style and demographics. And NO POINT in trashing a bike ... this hurts everyone. Constructive criticism is better.

But the knives will come out once the new Africa Twin is put into the pit with other class competitors. Then you'll find out stuff that's wrong that no one is talking about now. There are always problems, nit picks and complaints. Happens with any bike and once 4 or 5 guys get to work, they'll find plenty to criticize.

Hopefully nothing to serious or unrepairable will come up. Honda are generally good with 1st year models. Sure, the wise rider would wait 3 to 5 years for the first major up grade to happen. But who wants to wait that long? :innocent:

For years Vstrom owners hoped and prayed Suzuki would quickly do an major redesign of the Vstrom. Took about 8 years to happen. :thumbdown:
(PS: I told the project leaders at Suzuki to PLEASE do an ADV version of the Vstrom. They looked at me like I was from Mars. This in 2004 at Wee Strom intro.) Am I prescient? No, it's just they never leave their cubicles. :offtopic:

:thumbup1: I believe the Honda AT will blow all those bikes out of the water in terms of off road capability/crash survival, ease of maintenance and general price of upkeep. (PS: The XC Triumph has a 21" front ... does not help ... still scary to ride off road, IMO)
bier

I wonder how many pictures there are of BMW 1200 GS's circling the www with broken rear swing arms, broken final drives/gearboxes etc. Still doesn't stop people buying them. I think there is one or possibly two cases where the swing arm on an X bike broke which down to a faulty suspension set up. Give such a thing to a rider who has no idea about odd noise/movements in the bike and disaster is pre-progammed.
The front doesn't lift very easily on a Challenge because of the rear shock. I had that airshock for a while but I could live with that although I now have a proper shock on it.
Just look at some RR's of people using them to go RTW. There's hardly anything that goes wrong with these bikes and there is virtually nothing to compare them with.

"nothing to compare them with" ? Really? :rofl: (think about that one!)
Sure, some good stories of RTW rides on X bikes and broke swingarm is Rare, indeed! bier

Colebatch is most famous X bike rider I know of. But even his $$Big Money$$ custom X Challenge has had numerous engine and other components rebuilt several times. (Lots of his custom work done in Holland at Hot Rod factory) A Nice Bike, but not typical of X bikes out there and one few could ever hope to build or afford.

The Kymco (Taiwan) made motor is good, and would only have got better had BMW stuck with its development. Rotax did original design, good then but quite old now. (DR650, KLR, XR650L, XT600 all around 20 years old too! doh )

I believe some X bikes have the bad water pump seal issue that other F and G single BMW's had (have) (also made by Kymco)

TOO TRUE, GS12's have more final drive failures ... and as you say ... riders still buy them! I love riding the R1200GS :thumbup1: ... just would not own one. :nono: (can't afford one either!)

But this illustrates my point: Had BMW stayed behind the X bike line and continued R&D with them, I contend they could have had a world class bike dual sport/travel bike. They only manufactured the bike for what, two or three years?

Even so, I'd sooner ride long distance on an old X bike than ANY KTM single, new or old. But neither are as good (or as good value) as my Suzuki DR650. Honda XR650L, Yam XT660 and Kawi KLR650 also good value travel bikes. Cheaper to buy and run than any BMW. Sorry, just the way it is. Maybe in EU they're cheaper? :innocent:

But if the X bikes were still in production I'd certainly be looking closely at one now. BMW have the ability to make a bike as good as they wish. It's a shame what happened to the X bikes under an incompetent management, made decision to cancel the bike. :oops2: Mistake, IMO.

Remember, the Japanese have been hard at work making dual sport and dirt bikes since the 1960's. They've won countless championships in ALL classes, world wide for 50 years. What have BMW won? :blushing:

Japanese big 4 have won dozens of Motocross, Enduro, Cross Country and Road Racing championships in the last 50 years.
What was BMW doing all this time?

BMW are relative new comers to any sort of serious, long term racing. They never made dirt bikes (save one year for G450), never raced off road save one world enduro season and a few Dakar races and never showed any interest whatsoever in true off road capable dual sport bikes ... except for the X with very halfhearted attempts with F and G bikes.

The Japanese have produced HUNDREDS of different dual sport models going back to 1960's, from 50cc to 800cc (DR Big). From kids bikes to full on factory race bikes ... and are still producing them TODAY. They've done it all. For 50 years.

Sorry, I don't consider R80, R100 or any GS as "off road capable" ... I'd sooner ride a 30 year old Honda XL500 then any BMW in serious off road conditions.

But ... BMW DO make good travel bikes. :D

But racing is what brings technology forward ... and that is why the Japanese lead. The corporate arrogance of BMW is unbelievable, always amazed me. (we have another word for it :censored:)

I dono, the RR I read even with the bavarian 650 seem to have problems, bad luck? I suppose as even the venerable KLR has had it's share of oddities in the middle of no where. I do agree with Molly, overall do to the Japs vast experience you will end up with something solid, while BMW seems to depend more on it's lifestyle sales tactic.:palm:

Oh, now I understand where X challenge name come from doh


p.s.
BTW BMW has I guess the best marketing department in the world, because they are still leading in the adventure bike segment despite of such evidence....

Whilst my head tries not to be affected by looks, my heart loves the white/blue and gold rims, especially with a DCT box.

I think the AT will clean up against the 800cc bikes and will impact 1200cc sales as well. All very positive for us as it forces other manufacturers to improve their game.

Sales, you could convince the public that Plutonium was good for them they would buy it, just create a lifestyle. Do you really think that HD are great amazing bikes? I mean keeping with 50 year old designs and the cheapest shocks money can buy they still dominate the Market as the "Merican Freedom Machine"
Nothing more.
BMW has been absolutely brilliant in their marketing, thus why they dominate the adventure Marketing category. They have made sure their bikes are part of Iconic Adventure Movies, from Resident Evil to the Charlie Ewan Star Wars guys nonsense films they sold it famously. They then have their "Beat your BMW to death" contests which are a win win for them. Not only are they pushing the bikes and exposing them as something amazing to the public, they get the people dingy enough to bash the hell out of their bikes they also sell their parts or as I used to do when sellign cars, convince someone who had a broken down car why it was a good Idea to spend thousands more on a new one.

KTM parallel twin 800 spied | MCN

I agree ... and others are already responding. The old link for the KTM above could come in a variety of sizes (600, 700 or 800cc P-Twin). Of course it will be more $$$$$ than a BMW, so who knows you will buy it. doh

Kawi has a nice potential ADV bike in the Versys 650. Yam could transform their 700cc P-Twin FZ-07 to ADV as well. Yam's IMO, has most potential. Time will tell.

Also, Honda themselves are broadening their coverage of the segment as the
CB500X is looking more and more "adventurous" every year. (see new '16 version)

IMO, if Honda were smart, they'd invest in a super light, better performing CB500X. Might put Jmo's Rally Raid company out of business, but would be an interesting bike if they do it right ... MAKE IT LIGHT! (but lightweight = $$$$$)
bier

As noted in my post, BMW shown is an X Country, not X Challenge. But nearly same bike in swingarm area.

BMW are not leading any more, KTM have overtaken them, and continue to pull away. Look at the numbers.

But both KTM and BMW are tiny players compared to Honda in overall motorcycle market.

Ouch - there's a guy over at ADVrider whose frame broke in several different places. Pretty unforgivable from BMW really.

There's probably dozens of guys on ADV Rider that've broke frames or whatever.
It's not just BMW but I do believe they are leaders in this area:oops2:!

But KLR's break sub frames and rack bolts and even main frame. Honda's XR650L's and XL all had weak sub frames (I owned TWO that bent). No data on XT's, TTR's or 660's. Even Suzuki has had a couple guys break frames.

But for BMW's, there's plenty of data showing lots of breakage among GS's owners going back 20 years, even back to Helge Pederson's bike ... remember? He had to make his own drive shaft in Argentina! doh But mostly with GS's it's final drive, sometimes swing arms give up or frames. But it's mostly because guys are riding OVERLOADED bikes too fast in too harsh conditions.
A few pics of more broken bikes:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F...Ic42/047-L.jpg
My fav ... KLR ridden too fast in Baja. The guy had frame temp welded back together, rode back to US, bought another salvage KLR, transferred everything over ... and went back to Mexico to continue his LD ride! bier

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y...Ic42/bike1.jpg
Lots of threads about this issue ... F650 (and some G650's) broke off front forks. One German guy sued and got paid from BMW, other law suits rumored.
DOZENS of documented cases of forks broke off. (Showa forks are CLEARLY under spec'd for this 400 lbs. bike! So not Showa's fault, bike should have a least a 43mm fork)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S...45_ohYkh-L.jpg
Too fast for conditions.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x...enR1200GSA.jpg
Broke final drive caused crash ...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e.../JokeTilt2.jpg
Simple final drive oil change! :rofl: (just a joke folks!)

come, you should rather look at the numbers - I'm talking about adventure bikes not general motorcycle. Honda didn't have any new, real adventure bikes until now.

Depends how we define "Adventure Bike". IMO, Honda has been building variations of Adventure bikes since the 1960's. We didn't call our "Dual Purpose" bikes "Adventure Travel" bikes back then, but we certainly had many adventures riding them.

Sometime in the late 1990's the Media woke up to ADV bike movement (very late to the party, as expected) ... and then used BMW's GS as their standard by which to judge all others.

So moto media largely dictated to us what Adventure bikes are meant to be ... and by that measure ... you are 100% correct.
But honestly, what do most of those kids know? :cool4:
How many are dirt riders with 50 years experience?

I contend the Honda XR650L is every bit the Adventure bike any BMW GS is or ever was. With the right modifications the XR650L makes an excellent travel/adventure bike. Better than any BMW GS new or old. Why? It's more reliable, is a real dirt bike and if set up right, you can travel on one. I know ...
I owned one in 1992. :palm:

My favorite BMW "Adventure Bike" would be a heavily modified HPN built R80GS. Just my opinion. GS bikes got worse and worse for off road after the R80, the only BMW GS truly off road capable when ridden by mere mortals.

Original R80 retained WW2 technology ... some good, some not. The Electrics were 30 years behind the Japanese ... and they made very low HP, used oil and did generally the things Jap bikes do not do.

In 1981, 1st year for R80GS, the bike had a Varta Volkswagen battery and the system could not keep it charged. The electrics were late WW2 tech as was drive shaft and Panzer spec gear box. But it was fairly light and strong, rode well overall. (yes, I owned one)

The modern GS's are wonderful ... to ride ... as long as the trail does not get too rough. I love them, ridden thousands of miles on test bikes ... I just don't want to be around when the warranty is finished and something major breaks down. $$$$$$ :smartass:

But in terms of large CC ADV bikes, correct, Honda has not built a multi cylinder off road style bike since the last 1st generation A.T. in ... what? 2003 or so?

But clearly, bikes need not be 1000cc or bigger to qualify as ADV bikes.
bier

Yes there is the BMW big headedness, I agree fully on that.
BMW is not alone in that though.

Cheers, Ard