New Africa Twin (I don't get it)
 

Anyone tempted by the new Africa Twin?

I'm going to be in the market for a new 'adventure bike' next year, and I really want to like the new Africa Twin, but I just can't wrap my head around the point. Is there something I'm missing?

Lets compare it with the Yamaha Super Tenere which can be had for roughly the same price here in the US where there are big discounts to be had. The Super Tenere has more power, electronic suspension adjustment, cruise control, shaft drive, more fuel capacity, tubeless tyres, probably higher alternator output. I would expect Honda reliability and Yamaha reliability to be similar, so lets call that a tie.

Where does the Africa Twin beat the Super Tenere? It's about 40lbs lighter (if compared with the DCT model), has 1.7" more ground clearance, and has more off-road friendly wheel sizes. Ok, so it's probably slightly better off-road, but surely at these weights the gains are marginal? They're both over 500lbs, so neither is going to be ridden like a dirt bike by the average rider... and when riding along easy gravel roads, is the slightly lighter weight and bigger wheels going to make a huge difference in reality?

The other possible advantage for the Africa Twin is the DCT transmission. I read that for off-road novices (like me!), the DCT transmission actually makes it a lot easier to ride off-road because the bike handles gear changes/selection for you. Apparently Honda have tuned the system well for off-road.

But lets assume most riders aren't prepared to give up conventional gear changes for a DCT system... where is the advantage of the Africa Twin over a more powerful, better equipped Super Tenere?

If anyone is head over heels in love with the Africa Twin, please don't think I'm trolling here... I love the looks of the bike, and really would like to find an excuse to get one, but I just can't make sense of it when you compare the spec list with other bikes. I also know that no-one can truly know until test riding bikes which is better... so I realize this is a somewhat theoretical exercise!

You make some fair points regards new AT. Many here see the same ironies you've seen. But I'd say, lets wait until the magazine guys get hold of one and start doing comparos. DO ignore the initial "intro ride" article as they are almost ALWAYS 100% positive. Total BS of course but it's what they do.

Also, new owners of the bike tend NOT to be forthright and honest. In a year you'll start hearing the truth.

For the mags, wait for a multi bike comparo (probably a year away for USA), then you'll start learning TRUE stuff about the AT Honda didn't mention and you'll also learn more about the competition. Of course they'll be a ton of chatter and BS on ADV Rider ... but impossible to say anything there without the KTM and BMW Zealots hijacking any reasonable discussion. :thumbdown:

Of course as a dirt bike (as you've said) all these 500 lbs. monsters are a joke if things get truly tough ... unless you're Marc Coma :mchappy:

My take is buyers will go for the Honda based on it's history and a nostalgic attraction from some mysterious place. USA riders can't possibly have this as we never got the original bike! Most owners probably won't ride into nasty condition much ... but you never know.

I've just been reading a ride report on ADV Rider about 3 guys on V-Stroms (DL650) riding Latin America. They've taken those bikes into I N S A N E situations. Places I know in Baja - Mexico where I would struggle on a 250cc dirt bike. Deep sand, nasty rocks, you name it. They've had a rough time but have survived but the bikes got really beat up. They are still going. :D

It's nice to have the power, luxurious smoothness, comfort and luggage space of a big twin, but going off road is not their strong suit. (obvious, yes?)
I learned this years ago when I bought a new Vstrom DL1000 in 2002 and promptly took it to Baja! Wake up call! doh I'm a fair dirt rider but the Vstrom was clearly overmatched and I was clearly underpowered! :rofl:

Of course both the 1200 Tenere' and Honda AT will be MUCH better bikes than any stock Vstrom, but basic principles still apply. Heavy is heavy.

Regards front wheel sizes. A 21" matters. Big time. Bike will be easier to control in deep sand, will track straighter over rocks and will pull out of ruts easier without tossing you on your ass. 21" Rocks. Yes, for very fast road riding it's a trade off ... which I'm happy to accept.

I've gone with smaller bikes now for travel ... and I think if you look at trends, this is where the entire ADV travel world is going, has been going quite a few years now. Big bikes are fine if you are OK avoiding every dirt section you encounter along your route. This is fine for many, but even then, there are places where you simply can't avoid dirt.

I predict Honda will do "just OK" with the new AT. Like Harley, they'll clean up on accessories and factory farkles to "deliver True Adventure!" :rofl:

But it's all good, and who knows, maybe Honda will wake up and make the perfect 450 or 500cc travel/ADV bike someday? bier

Maybe I'm underestimating the off road potential, with that 21 inch wheel. It is striking when you look at the specs that they're all extremely similar to the old KTM 990 Adventure. I've never ridden one, but have read a number of times that the KTM 990 is the exception to the rule that heavy bikes can't do off road.

I don't actually enjoy riding off road, it's the means to an end for me... so I don't need a great off road travel bike (think I'd get the KTM 690 if I did), but having some ability to handle very occasional rough stuff if it appears on the way to my destination is of course attractive. I reckon 90% of my 'adventures' will be on road.

For some reason something draws me towards this bike, even though I can't work out a logical reason why :) The idea of it excites me more than the idea of a Super Tenere somehow. I'll go for a test ride and read all the reviews from owners and the press with interest when it comes out... hopefully someone will work out a logical reason why I should part with cash to buy one! Even the DCT appeals to me on some level... on one hand an 'automatic' bike seems wrong somehow, but on the other I suppose it's not that much different to having a quick shifter...

Very conflicted about this bike! :laugh:

I'd get a CB500X, put a Rallly Raid 3 kit on it and spend the difference on a trip.

Assuming money is no object (unfortunately it is! But just for the sake of argument) I guess AT Vs CB500X + RR off-road comes down to which of these advantages are better, for a very very unskilled off road rider:

AT: Bigger wheel size + DCT transmission + ground clearance

CB500X: 80lbs lighter + more compact dimensions

I know the CB500X has a very manageable power delivery, but so does the AT with the DCT transmission in the right setting according to reviews.

As I say, I'm not a fan of off road... it's something I know I'll have to deal with from time to time the further my riding trips take me from home, but not something I'm actively seeking out. So road performance is a factor here for me too.

Money no object? I'd get the AT for mostly road use but still get the CB500X + RR if I was going to head off the beaten track. Possibly anyway, as I just don't enjoy those high power bikes the way I used to when I was younger and more reckless.....
Or the new bonnie 1200 looks pretty tasty....

( to be honest i will not be so objective because i never liked the AT ou the TA )
Honda had made extraordinary bikes , and the RR was nice off road .
Here in France i know guys who had make incredible trips withe these AT . on hard hard pistes also .
Like Molly ( as always :clap:) I will say this : for a regular rider off road, even better one , the weight is number one problem. So , these heavy complicater bikes ( traction bla bla, DCT and whatever) wont do the job . And if you fall all the time, you will be exhausted at the VERY moment where you should not ( murphy is coming, ans he is not happy :oops2:) : i know what i am talking bout .
- to the best il will be boring and costly
-to the worst dangerous .
( here you have 50 % of AT lovers and 55 % of haters for theses reasons // i know it is too much but some lie )

At the end of the day it's just like the Super Tenere and even the big KTM.

They're all pretend off road bikes. They are designed to look like they are hardcore. They're not.

For the simple reason. THEY'RE ALL REALLY HEAVY. Until they can find a way to overcome gravity that will always be the case.

In the hands of a good off-roader they can be ridden anywhere and do anything but that rider will still want to be riding something 100kg less..

They're all really good at touring, cruising and generally ripping around on at the weekend. Because that's what 99% of their owners will do.

You can't have have all the power, comfort and fancy gimmicks without adding a huge amount of weight to the bike.

I'm certain if Honda did a survey and asked 99% of potential buyers if they would sacrifice the power and comfort for less weight and higher cost, none of them would really want it...

Honda could shave 50KG off that bike if they wanted to. But it would cost another £5000. No one would buy it.

The manufacturers aren't stupid.. They know the market, they do the research and they advertise and design accordingly.


If you want to ride the Baja, buy a mid-weight single with long travel and minimal comfort.

If comes down to the age old fact. YOU CAN'T HAVE EVERYTHING !!

wrong comparison - Africa Twin is nothing like Super Tenere, it's completely different category. AT is heavier dual sport bike while ST is heavier touring bike. Apples and oranges.

I have just tested stationary Africa Twin at local dealer. Beautiful bike, very light for what it is. I think it's gonna be my second do it all bike soon along the xt660z.

I had one of the first year Super Teneres in the US. GREAT bike....but too heavy. In your first post you said electronic suspension adjustment. Mine didn't have that. Do the new ones come with ESA?

By Super Tenere he means the big 1200. Not the XT660Z Tenere. :o

Ted

what are you talking about... I know.


BTW, I 'm sure new AT will be big 1200cc killer.

I had assumed you had misunderstood. Sorry...

As to me , the new Africa Twin and the Super Tenere are in same category.

Fat, lardy, expensive Adventure bikes built to have the Touratech catalogue thrown at them and only to be delicately cared for by main dealers.

They're both heavy touring bikes. Neither of them were designed to ride anything more 'off-road' that a gravelly campsite carpark.

The Africa Twin is no Dual sport... Not in my mind anyway.

As high speed mile munching touring bikes they are fantastic though and I'd love to have one in the garage.

Let's face it at least 99% of 1200 tenere's don't go off road cos they don't do it very well,,,,, well I can't any road,,,,, I would say 95% AT will do the same cos most of us can't handle it, I'd still have one cos they look great

Actually there was only one truly off road capable KTM twin ... and that was the KTM 950SE (special edition) Unbelievably light weight for a 950. Only sold for a year or two in late nineties, then discontinued. It has Carbs, gets terrible fuel economy but it rides like a 650! Pretty amazing bike! The 990 is bit of a Pig by comparison, if talking off road.

I get it, I've done similar tours. I like off road but unless on the right bike, it's not much fun. A BIG ADV bike will be OK most of the time but something like deep MUD or Deep Sand would be your undoing. Avoid.

I would wait at least a year before purchase of the Africa Twin ... or get a lengthy test ride PRE purchase. The Honda will be a great bike, won't be fast and won't be a dirt bike. But I'm betting it will be fun to ride.
bier

I don't agree. Yes, they are different bikes for sure ... but certainly NOT Apples and Oranges. They are both BIG TRAILIES, over weight Adventure Bikes, similar engine capacity, close in weight. They are in the same Class. Far from Apples and Oranges.

The Honda is more stripped down / simple ... and to me that does set apart from the Tenere'. But they're still in the same class IMO.

EX: Just because the BMW GS1200L has shaft drive ... it will still be in the class with AT, Tenere', KTM 1290 (or whatever) and one or two more.

The BMW is probably the same weight as the Honda ... will the Honda work as well as the BMW Off Road? Lets hope so ... but don't underestimate the BMW GS1200. It's a pretty amazing bike. Better than it looks on paper.

I'm not sure how you judge a bike "Stationary" :innocent: Perhaps reserve judgement until you take it for a spin. Sitting on a bike in the dealership is just slightly different than actually riding it!
:rofl:

I agree, both are too heavy and too expensive anyway for throwing around (although this is relative). For some maybe it's cheap :)
I think AT is on the verge, manual version at 232kg is not that horrible yet as ST.

IIRC, Yamaha has added some sort of Semi active electronic suspension system to latest 1200 Tenere'. Check it out, I'm too lazy to dig into mag archives but I do believe I read about this? Anyone? In any case, if the Yam doesn't have full system now, it will soon. More money, more complexity, more weight.
But it's what customers want. :mchappy:

Yeah, it's not anywhere near as advanced/complex as the systems on the BMWs or KTMs though... it basically just uses a servo to turn screws to set the preload/damping. So you can adjust suspension settings with a button, but it's not semi-active.

Heh... I knew this topic would be fun :)

Ok, lets bring this back to basics...

Are RTW bike weights black and white, or are there shades of grey? What I mean by this is, once you get over 500lbs are they all as bad as each other? Is saying "this bike is the best off road 500lbs+ bike" basically saying "this one is slightly less terrible than the others, but still pretty terrible"...? In which case, maybe if you're picking a 1200cc bike, making your choice based on 'off road prowess' is pointless, as they're all bad and any gains are marginal?

For example, I've never really considered the Triumph Tiger Explorer because in group tests they always say it's the worst off road. But maybe that doesn't matter? Maybe even the best off road in those group tests is so bad that it shouldn't be a criteria you consider when purchasing those kinds of bikes?

For those guys going RTW on a light/mid-weight single cylinder... if someone put a gun to your head and said you had to take a modern 1000cc+ bike on your next RTW trip, would you buy one of the usual suspects like an R1200GS or Super Tenere? Or would you think it's all irrelevant at that point, as none of them can do off-road so may as well do the trip on a sportsbike or sports-tourer?

of course it is not black and white, all depend on rider physical fitness and altitude :thumbup1: Personally I like heavier bikes off-road, sure it's more risky and tiresome, requires more skills but it is more rewarding as well. It make me go to GYM which is good thing.

Personally I think new AT will end era of 1000cc+ adventure bikes
what I hope happens.

If given any sort of choice within the "large bike" group, I'd probably wait for KTM to introduce a new series of 700 or 800cc twins (I've heard rumors) and hope they actually make a bike capable and light enough to cope in more challenging conditions. They certainly know how to do this if they want to.

But beyond the bike it really comes down to the rider, his/her individual skill and fitness ... and age.

KTM can do this but Triumph might struggle (speculation here) to produce a true off road ADV machine ... might take a few development cycles to do it.

Honda? They can do whatever they want ... but Honda are "treading lightly" now in the off road motorcycle world (have been for at 6-7 years) and
could well pull out all together as environmental/political issues are taken more seriously. (30 years too late! doh)

Honda could come forth with an "all new" version of the Trans Alp. Keep it a 650, make if super light, 21" front, off road touring based and double the power of original TA. It'd be a Home Run, IMO.

But realistically Honda will probably continue to work from the bottom up, building on their 250 dual sport CRF250L. Same with Yamaha, with the WR250R.

KTM will continue at full throttle until they no longer can ... then they'll go back to making Radiators. :rofl:

One of the regulars here used to say that you may ride all day on a big ADV bike and all would be right with the world. But it only takes 100 yards of nasty mud to ruin your whole day. (Been there, done that!)

bier

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i..._4003.JPG.jpeg

I saw the AT in the flesh. I didn't pay much attention, but it did strike me as just another Starbucks tourer. CCM, the XT660 club etc.need not worry IMHO. Touratech better fire up their laser cutter and logo printer though.

I think you would buy one because you thought the Honda dealer would be more useful than the Bavarian coffee shop.

You can take an Enfield Bullet or C90 through mud like that. It's just a choice between bimbling through at a pace that won't kill you and adding a day to the trip, blasting through like its a MX event or dealing with it like a miserable chore. The CB500 strikes me as weight level where chore ends and a feeling of MX starts, but I'm in the Enfield/C90 frame of mind in most cases, so maybe I'm wrong.

Andy

I road tour on an ST (267kgs and all day comfort) and properly off road with a KTM Freeride (100kgs). Both would be hideous used in the other context. There is no bike out there that will do both well. It's like trying to find a tractor that will race competitively in F1!

My point? There are thousands of people wanting a 'sit up and beg' road bike with power, comfort and refinement (the ST gets slagged for being for being underpowered!). And there are literally tens of people wanting to buy a new true adventure bike to take RTW.

If you were a bike manufacturer who would you build your bike for? Undoubtedly that will have been Honda's conclusion too.

Seems unlikely to me (at least in the uk) anyone is going to build a bike suited to HU user needs - just not commercially viable.


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who cares ?
 

<good post really
I will give only my personal feelings , i mean now and here .
1) Some people had made a world tour with a R1 ( read that here before would not had believed iit :oops2:) , a 125 in the seventies, some mopeds, old scooters, Ural with a full-tool-kit, and passed through hard places ...took time and so .
BUT true matter is ; counting with your own abilities and skills, age and fitness, what will be the ratio you want to "endure" in case ?
For example , even with better pilots ( oh yes ) , younger( toom uch except 2) ; the ktm's made also an extra difference in hard hard places during my last trip in oueds full of roads, sliding and tough !

2) the complexity of the big "trailies" ( i like the term :rofl:) .
All the "helper" things , adjustable damper, ABS-new-generation , ATC , and bla bla bla , will they carry even if you battery is weak and weak ?
What if one is errantly working ?
And also, it is not so pleasant to ride a bike with all this assisting stuff ......
and the day , the very day they dont work, badaboum !!! a racing pilot told me that, in a discussion about he mythic RSV4.

But yesterday i took the little path towards my house with my brutale MV and stands up for a while to ride the tracks; going nice ... :mchappy:
and i start thinking
with some modifications ( very expensive, twice the price of the bike ) a 675 ( dry 160 kg ) will be a good engine for an adventure bike ....ah ah
quite light
good traction
..:thumbup1:
so to say , the reason is not the way to answer this matter but it might help :palm:

If you mean at the recent NEC annual shindig, I paid even less attention than you I would imagine.
I felt a sense of deja vu; it was at the same show 12 months previously, albeit displayed out of reach from the public - this time, following all the hype videos over the past few months, I just walked on past and spent more time at each of the RE and CCM stands.
However, I could have sat on any one of the ATs on the Honda display - there were plenty of times on Thursday 3 Dec when that chance was going begging.

I probably spent more time looking at the Suzuki V Stroms, 650 and 1000 (strange how the latter never gets a mention), than all of the Honda offerings.

I am not sure that Aprilia care much for their Caponord either; very little attention was apparent in that corner of the A display, and Yamaha couldn't be bothered to show an XT660Z Tenere alongside their Super Tenere.

Thanks guys, good replies but no one has really answered my question yet.

I get that you can't ride a 500lbs bike through the desert, along the BAM, off-road sections in Baja... Nor would I ever contemplate doing such things on a heavy, expensive, complicated bike. That's not my question.

My question is this: is it worth considering off-road ability as a criteria when picking a 500lbs adventure bike for a (mainly road based) RTW trip? Or, for bikes that heavy are they all so bad that claimed off-road ability is irrelevant?

Reviews starting to come out now saying the DCT AT in particular is great for off road novices. But what I'm trying to figure out is whether saying "my 500lbs adventure bike is better off road than your 550lbs adventure bike" a bit like saying "my Harley 110 is faster than your Harley 103." I mean, that's sweet, but neither Harley is fast so may as well make your purchasing decision based on which one has the shiniest chrome, right? (No offense Harley guys!)

New Africa Twin (I don't get it)
 

IMHO to all intent and purposes irrelevant - certainly don't give up anything you want for road use in order to get off road 'capability'.

[Basis of opinion: I had to ride a hired 1200GS through powdery sand knowing i had a £1k deposit on it once - my bowels have never been the same since :-)]


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.....but if you really like the AT more than the ST buy it anyway. We worry to much about "the best bike" - better to get whatever one you really like, enjoy it and stop reading bike reviews 'till you need to change it again - they only spoil your enjoyment of what you have!


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I traded a Weestrom for a Moto Guzzi V7. I previously used a Triumph Bonneville and Enfield Bullet.

The road bikes have better manners on the road, comfort, simplicity etc. Faced with off road they do it so long as you don't need to be quick or keep up the resale value.

The off road bikes are the opposite, can do the motorway, can do two up. The off road ability makes them top heavy with hard seats etc. The off road bit however can actually be fun after the first hour.

Charlie bikes are a compromise that seem often to only take features I don't want like seven selectable modes Canbus wireless equipped whatever. They also have features I might like like big fuel tanks, non-racing riding positions and tubeless tyres that so called sports tourers don't. The ones that are just big high touring bikes I compare to the likes of a VFR.

For the road based trip I'd consider all road bikes. You don't need a marketing department to tell you a Goldwing/Harley/VFR is only for one purpose and you must buy "Adventure" to go anywhere the carpark might not be paved.

Triumph Bonnevilles are only for dressing up like Steve McQueen and drinking milkshake:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u...2/P1000724.JPG



Andy

This is interesting stuff. I expect my trips will be 90% road based, with the occasional gravel path in places where paved roads don't exist. I have no inclination to ride through deserts, but I just wanted a predominantly road touring bike that wouldn't curl up into a ball and cry every time it saw a slightly muddy puddle!

Therefore a big 1000cc+ adventure bike seemed like a good 90/10 balance for me. But if the expert view (because I concede that you guys all have way more expertise in these matters than me) is that something like a 1200GS is no better off road than a Goldwing then maybe I need to reconsider my options.

Hey, maybe I'll just take my 1400cc Moto Guzzi cruiser around the world! :)

I avoided doing that because it would only be a personal opinion, in this case about a bike that is not quite available as yet.

On balance, it sounds like you are aiming to ride on asphalt and there is plenty of that on this planet nowadays.
There is no need to go "off road" - however that is defined and for which there is a disproportionate amount of discussion within the HUBB - unless you really want to do exactly that.

Nor have you mentioned what tyres/tires you would use for your proposed trip; they make a difference, whether fitted to a GS, or a Wing, or the MG cruiser.

If the 1400 Guzzi is a known quantity to you in terms of riding it and fixing it, it seems a good choice to me.

On a section of bad track it might be one of the first to turn back, but you will at least know this if you have experience of it.

I rode in Morocco with a chap on a R1150GS. His entire preparation was to buy the bike. No off road training, no tyres, no idea where the battery was to find out why the ABS light was on. His previous bike was a 250 Honda just the ones local teenagers were buzzing over the tracks that had him falling off every 50 yards and picking up his 3/4 tonner, but hey, Chris Scott told him to do it in the chapter he'd read (he says ducking for cover, tongue firmly in cheek).

Andy

Oh, I know... I totally get that no-one can give me an AT review here, unless any of your happened to be at the press launch?? :) As I said up front, I realize this is a largely theoretical exercise at the moment, which is partly why I refocused my question to a more general "is there any point to 1000cc adventure bikes?" type thing...

My plans are probably slightly more nuanced than 100% road riding. I know you can ride most of the way around the world on asphalt these days, and for the main that's what I'd be doing. But I'd also like the ability to be able to do a little riding on unpaved stretches too. You know, when the cute girl at the bar says "sure, come back to mine tonight... my town is 5 miles up a gravel track though, that's cool right?" I want to say yes rather than spend the night alone with just my imagination :)

I did ride along some pretty washboarded gravel roads on my Guzzi cruiser when I did Route 66 this year (wanted to stay as close to the original route as possible for no logical reason!) and must say I found the whole thing bloody uncomfortable. There's very little suspension travel, plus it's a feet forward riding position so I couldn't stand up. I had a real sense of "I'd be enjoying this more on something like an R1200GS" which is why I was playing around with the idea of big adventure bikes for future trips.

As for tires, it would probably vary depending on where I was in the world at the time. I expect something like Heidenau K60s most of the time... also depends on what's available for the bike I pick.

First of all, like others said, take the bike you prefer. And then maybe choose the roads for it . I like guzzis a lot but I wont go RTW with for mechanical problems reasons ( serious and documented ones you may find on fora of aficions here in France and Italy :rain:)
A honda will do this job for sure , a bmw also ( an old one not sure for the "water" 1250) or wahtever , a SV, DL ...
90 % and 10 % well well , some 1% could be impossible to cross withe these heavy "trailies" . doh i can give examples .
And there are some other occasions, except if you are really trained or/and very strong , like going on a little boat, pussing the bike up after falling 10 times and so on .
anyway wait for the tests . :palm:

You say you don't want to go off road, but I have seen a few loaded bikes really struggle crossing a dew soaked grass campsite. Throw in a few undulations and a slope and it can get hard work. My Enfield will chug pretty much anywhere and has a very small turning circle.
there are places where it would eat my Triumph 3 cylinder.

At the end of the day, it comes down to personal choice. I've ridden/toured a Super-ten, and didn't like it. I've tried others, but have always came back to- the cost of the bike don't justify the but I'd be getting extra above what already have. I have an RD07 Africa Twin, and love it. If the new AT handles anything like the old one, it'll be the one for me.

SO: ride them, and buy the one you like the most. The money you save because of 'deals' offered mean nothing if you're not enjoying the ride.

Good advice my friend. Others in the thread have said this too.

Ultimately with bike purchases, it comes down to what the heart wants, right? When I bought my Moto Guzzi California 1400 Custom there weren't many people telling me it's the most sensible bike in the work to buy. But I couldn't get the damned thing out of my mind since I saw one riding around Lake Como when I was on a riding trip in Italy. So, screw common sense, I bought it. Still get a buzz every time that V-twin fires up. Why? Don't know, I just do.

Still, there's no harm in a little "what does this bike offer that this other bike doesn't?" chatter. It's just passing the time until I get to ride one I guess.

Though really, having started the thread being skeptical of the AT, I'm now realizing that there's something I can't put my finger on about it that makes me want it. So helping me realize I have a bit of a lust over the bike, even though I can't explain logically why has been a useful exercise! lol

You know, it's a shame you can't test ride bikes off road. I mean, I guess you could if the dealer was near a trail... By who wants to risk dropping a test ride bike?

Guzzi guy?
Check out this review that includes the Moto Guzzi NTX 1200 Stelvio:

Adventure Bike Comparison Review- Off-Road Motorcycling: Ducati Multistrada S Touring vs. Moto Guzzi Stelvio 1200 NTX vs. Triumph Tiger Explorer vs. Yamaha Super Ténéré

Check out the video offered for quick summation and good insight into the dirt road capabilities of the 4 bikes in the comparo.
In the end, I'd bet the new Africa Twin would be better off road than all the above bikes ... but won't come close in overall ability.

that's why it is an expensive sport, you buy blindly relying on others opinions and then selling soon just after because it was not it...

about testing
There had been the same test in Moto magazine ( magazine of a mutual insurance compagny ) two years ago wth the same kind of bike , big "trailies " over 1000 cc and 230 kg .
They had been to Morocco on roads ; with at least two pilots of enduro and ex-Dakar, they tried once to take a piste ,
the two guys said it was not the kind of bike for it :D
this vid might give an idea both

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvk...ierre-goy_auto
what a pro can do ( the guy is also a stuntman on films ( skyfall, jason bourne ... before he was a world trial champion)
imagine what is possible for a "regularr" rider
nb : the tracks are very easy compared to morocco, some north spain or else and SHORT .
*** the guy said several times : "it is very physical after 10 minutes "

That small bespoke manufacturer CCM do an amount of off asphalt test riding with their fleet of test bikes - so it has been reported.

Correct though, I don't think the big manufs or dealers for that matter are going to go that extra mile (every pun intended)..

But, what happened to this thread? It's about a brand new model of Honda bike that is sure to sell in droves and it turns up in the pub??

Haha... well, to bring the thread back on topic, I'm really starting to come around to the idea of the Africa Twin (pending test ride of course). All the reviews that are coming out say that the DCT (automatic) transmission is a revelation for off-road riding.

Once again - and I cannot stress this enough - I KNOW the bike isn't going to get through a desert, or along the BAM, or through the Amazon in rainy season. But for the blend of high-mileage road days plus a little unpaved roads where the pavement runs out that I'm after, it seems ideal.

My initial preference of a Super Tenere over the bike has lessened a lot the more I read about the DCT transmission. I suppose you could argue that just adds complexity, and who is going to be able to fix a DCT transmission in the middle of Africa. But Honda have a pretty good reputation for reliability so I'm probably prepared to take that risk.

After reading some of the LONG thread over on ADV Rider, I'm now even more convinced this Honda will be a BIG SELLER. It's a Better Tenere' 1200, a less expensive KTM 1290 (or whatever) or GS1200, and for now will bring in LOTS of riders, IMHO. NOTE: "for now"

Until Yamaha come forward with either a real ADV/TRAVEL/Dakar/Starbucks version of either their FZ-09 or FZ- 07 ... Honda will be out front with the AT. If Honda can keep the price low enough it should sell by the thousands. But if Yamaha do it right ... watch out Honda san.

The other bike that could sink the new Africa Twin before it gets started is an 800 KTM P-Twin that is reported to be "in the wings", ready for release. If truly lighter weight and reliable ... (always a BIG IF with KTM) ... then could also be a big winner for the Orange guys and really hurt Big Red. KTM's just keep getting BETTER, smoother, faster ... and sadly, really expensive! :mchappy:

I've now seen many of the videos showing the AT going off road and I'm not impressed. I see the thing swapping ends side to side and wallowing just like the 550 lbs. Pig that it is. But those were semi harsh conditions and most will never go there.

As an easy going dirt/gravel road bike and real travel bike, it will be better than a Vstrom off road (but probably NOT as good ON road) and should be better than both the Tenere' and GS. The BIG KTM? Not sure. Only seen the 950's and 990's off road (in person). The 950SE rides like a 600 single. The 990 is just another Pig.

The other bike in contention against the new AT is the new Tiger 800 XCX. It it wasn't so overpriced it'd have a chance. As it stands, Honda's AT will out sell the Tiger 5 to one.

The other thing to consider is crash damage. The aforementioned 990 does NOT crash well. Expensive and tragic when it hits the ground. :oops2:
Tiger a bit better with heavy crash bars.

Same with Vstrom ... disaster! doh The GS? surprisingly a very good crasher ... due to those big jugs sticking out taking the shot! :thumbup1: Yea BMW! Nothing more entertaining than to see a $25,000 USD GS flipping down the trail.
(been there, seen that one in person!)

Tenere'? Not too bad if fully equipped with 40 lbs. of crash bars! :rofl:

But if you plan to crash, get a cheap bike. I've fallen off my DR650 dozens of times. I think I broke a lever and mirror one time. bier

It is indeed heavy (though not quite 550lbs), but I'm hopeful over this DCT transmission. Ok, sure, it's still not going to be better off road than a genuinely light single-cylinder bike, I know that... but maybe for a relative novice like me, the DCT system will make it easier to handle than a manual bike 50-100lbs lighter? I don't know, it's just a theory, time will tell...

But I do know that every review I've read/seen so far is going crazy over how much easier the DCT made the off road sections compared to the (lighter) manual transmission version.

Of course, it could all be hype, plus the warm glow of all the free food and drink Honda no doubt provided....

Don't kid yourself. The Japanese do extensive testing, always have. Especially HONDA. Did you know they have a HUGE test track in the Mojave desert where they've tested both cars and bikes for DECADES. I know a mountain you can climb up on a good trail bike for a decent view. Overwise you can't get within 500 yards of it ... and can't see a thing.

It's big oval with a separate motocross track and more you can't see. Totally hidden. NO signs on the road. We always thought it was military (lots of military in the area). Honda have several such facilities world wide. Plus, they have dozens of test riders on the development team, some are famous racers or former racers. Testing is a big deal.

I've not been to Honda factory but did get a short tour of Yamaha in Japan.
We were there to interview CEO so the factory tour was just a courtesy.

They showed us (very briefly) the engine "test to failure" room where engines are run 24/7 at redline until failure. YES! They actually do this!:eek3:

Oil and coolant are piped through constantly. Once it blows or seizes ... they tear it down and find out why ... then make that part better. It's what they do.
When my new (demo actually) Acura blew it's trans they pulled it out, put it in a crate and off to Japan it went. No round eyes were allowed to touch it.

In the grand scheme, this Africa Twin is kind of a big deal for Honda. Legacy and all. So it would be very bad form for it to fail or have lots of problems. They would lose "face". Very bad in Japanese culture. Someone would have to fall on his sword.:smartass:

No, I don't think it's hype at all. In fact I KNOW its better! How many here ever rode a Husky 4 Speed Auto? I did! Remarkable on rocky, technical slow going up hills. No clutch slipping and plenty of easy to use torque where and when you needed. It was (IIRC) a 430 2 Stroke, so massive power, easy to ride in deep sand and mud as well.

Modern bikes using Recluse type auto transmissions are similar in character to DCT.
I've ridden those too ... and they are marvelous. So yes, you are correct and will do fine on the DCT. But the weight will still be there. Best to learn dirt riding on a lighter bike like a 250. You well learn faster, no damage to bike or body and your learning curve will be MUCH faster. Then, once on the BIG BIKE, you will have more confidence. Go for it!

bushido
 

Like Molly said, the japan guys test damn hard all their machines
examples
- Subaru first 100 000 km test without stop
- several 6 cylinders running' until they break( if you know the price :freezing::freezing:)
- idem for the gold wings
- test pilots ? I had seen a regular truck from HRC with three enduro bikes around, north of N'Kob in the middle of nowhere ; when we passed, the put the bikes in the truck
- After the firs dakars, some yam' techs came to France to visit the "protos" engaged ( base upon XT mostly ) , after the failure of the 550' ( no character no look) and then they put ténéré, 600 and 660 on the market ... the first tested fully in Algeria desert ( around 81/82) .....
they know how to do this ...

悪事千里をはしる

You have missed the point, completely.

Perhaps it's related to the HUBB pub thing.

Sorry about that ... doh so what was your point again? :rofl:

Here is what I read and how I interpreted your previous post.
Please correct and advise:
I think you're saying CCM do more rigorous and extensive testing than do
Big Four OEMs?? Did I get that bit wrong? Any case, I contend just the opposite. CCM can't even hope to afford the extensive testing the big OEM's can do.
Well, once the bike actually is being sold, then perhaps we'll have a few members here to give feedback on the new bike?
Until then ... it's all just friendly Pub banter and mostly pure speculation.

So to me Hubb Pub is where the topic should be ... for now. :innocent:
You could start a new thread in the Honda sub forum I guess. I'll put in my 2 cents. bier

We truly are two nations separated by a common language!

The whole context of my linking together of two earlier posts related to the availability of test rides by the "punters" = us, joe soap general public.
For those who visit the factory, CCM have their test ride outs for said punters in their local area including some riding of the local lanes, + they have taken (during the past 12 months) the test fleet to local events in the UK where the bikes have also been taken "off road".
Combined with their website, that is probably the sum total of their sales effort.

The last time I came across that "level of service" it was from Aprilia UK back in 2001 (I still have the T shirt).
OTOH (there has to be one), BMW Motorrad provide a similar access to test motorbikes across a wide range of places in mainland Europe but I haven't seen anyone offering that in the UK (having seen what happened to the Aprilia machines I am totally not surprised).

No matter about when a full on AT thread starts in here - internet based rumour says that deliveries of the new AT are delayed.

Cheers Dave,
Now I get it. bier
You are 100% correct! NONE of the big four offer test rides on new bikes. NONE (in USA) have "demos" in stock. (with a few exceptions from time to time)

This is the BIG inside move that CCM have over the Big Four. Offering test rides is KEY to success, IMHO. It's helped BMW big time here in USA.

Why won't Big Four offer test rides? "They" say, insurance/liability issues. Fair enough, I'd not have confidence putting a 16 year old on a new Hayabusa .... and this is always their rationale.

Yet BMW, Triumph and KTM ALL offer demos for testing. KTM even have weekend demo events in the Desert (California) for anyone to come out and ride a new KTM in the dirt!. Boy, does that sell bikes!

BMW have offered test rides since forever, but NOT off road (far as I know). Triumph has offered Test rides since entering USA market in '92 or '93 or so. KTM is limited and not all dealers offer test rides but many do. But KTM GMBH do set up these incredible Desert test weekends, even includes lessons from the pros.

Some other EURO dealers also offer test rides. I've been lent new Ducatis several times. Aprilia as well.

If you know a Japanese dealer well you may get a test ride, but not off road unless they have a "special event", rare but they do happen once in a while.

As a member of the media (now retired) I could get any bike anytime. But your average guys never could. It hurts sales and always has. Obviously the Euro dealers have "better" insurance" and are willing to pay the big premiums to offer test ride programs.

CCM will have a tough time navigating our litigious system here in USA. This is perhaps why their marketing efforts here are delayed? They'll need good insurance or risk being sued into oblivion.

bier

I do not see so many differences in fact .
example 1
You want to test on road a brand new GSXR, or R1 or whatever . Il you are known by some dealer, you could , or if you look "trusty" enough :D
Off road , except on occasion ( the day for bla bla , BMW asked me twice, never stock bikes, always team caring, hours of waiting so no ! ) NO here .
Of course i did a ride with the local dealer own bike ( on tracks too ) before buying another DRZ , but he is my friend ! knows a i wont be stupid with the bike :innocent:
example 2 .
What for me is comparable to CCM ( I love these bikes, tried to find one in France last year : impossible :nuke:) is BIMOTA .
every bike is different, all parts are top market, you can go and test on racing places , it is crazy expensive .

I paid a forth-hand DRZ with 5000 km , only one ring to change twice or thrice cheaper than an unfindable CCM , worse for a ktm .

From Lanesplitter review:

"Now, I should be clear here that I’m not an expert off-road rider or someone extremely qualified to dive into the subtle differences between various off-road machines. But I can tell you I’ve ridden all and I’ve spent a lot of miles off road and the Africa twin is better than anything else I’ve ridden off road with more than 650 ccs. It’s better than that XR650L, better than the GS, and better than the KTM. We didn’t get into anything too crazy and technical, but lots of South Africa looks like the California high desert and there wasn’t a single time during the day where I wished for anything smaller, lighter, more powerful, or different."

Ok, not conclusive... the reviewer had just been wined and dined for 6 days at Honda's expense by the sounds of things. But I must say, based on the reviews, I'm excited to try it.

Actually, the Tenere does moderate dirt very well with most riders taking advantage of off road riding. According to my poll here a majority of nearly 70 percent do so. Do you ride your Tenere off road? some flat out flog it.

I just like it for dirt/gravel road riding which it does better than my KLR do to it's better balance, it is also easier to pick up do to the lower center of gravity. A friend I ride with who has a GS 650 commented how much smoother the Tenere soaks up the pot holes over his bike, that extra weight equals more comfort on the dirt as well as the road.

The abs is not a problem on anything but wash boards , nor are the linked brakes which I only turn off to back that ass up when going around dirt corners:scooter:

The traction control is ok I guess, I do not really want or need it but it gives lots of people peace of mind so whatever.

Overall I think people would be happy with it's capabilities overall.

The only area that has been a bitter disappointment has been the fork seals which I replaced at 3k and ended up with a small scratch on my ringht fork a thousand miles later, apparently I am an anomaly but it does tick me off as I by no means flog it.

It's better off-road than a XR650L ??? Really ???

I have a XR650L. It's a proper off-road bike. It weighs HALF of the Africa twin and has about twice the suspension travel, double the clearance and 21/18 wheels. And a Torquey 650cc Single which when geared properly pulls great.

It can really rip on the trails..

Now I've never ridden the new Africa Twin but that is quite a statement. If that's true then Honda really have created a fantastic bike.

Fair enough, you say you didn't do anything technical and that might be the key. I'm sure once the trail got tricky that AT would soon show it's weight, lack of travel and lack of ground clearance.

I need to get a ride on one...

so good ??
 

Like Ted I would like to test it, but I am afraid it is mpossible ( see ante doh) .
So for the moment I stay ( very) skeptical . :mchappy:
because
I had seen what a ktm could do with a good pilot`
I know what a DL , DR, XT, XL R can do with a medium pilot
I know what a very good pilot can do on any bike ( I mean Rahier, Neveu ..) . SO In this message, the option
not experienced/it is the best bike I ever ride ..sounds ....:rofl:

I once ride a husqy, think It was a 530 or something, on an easy easy trail , dry .
As I put the throttle in 3d gear , the bike started to slide from the rear. I was lucky enough to keep on riding ,and made a 180° turn.... :palm::stormy:
by luck only .... it was around 87 . .... rode a TT 600 yam' at this time ..
difference ?? yes there is a huge ! :cool4:

Most of us mere mortals wouldn't know if a decent bike to a dog, the AT has been tested by top enduro riders and yes they can toss that thing round like a pan cake, I like the look of it, I'm like every one else went to the nec, I wouldn't buy without a test ride but who's to say I may not like it when I ride it, then Are we going to say I don't know nothing about bikes, bull shit, a bike is about the brand just like a pair of Nike trainers must have, if I like I will have one but not until it's been test ridden by a few thousand test pilots.
Sorry about the bluntness

I am sure as an adult who has motorcycle experience you can tell one from the other, go give one a go, I promise you will like it.

Now with that said, you do not have to sell whatever you ride now, its all about experience : )

A KLR650 true wet weight is around 400 lbs. Yamaha claim 575 lbs. wet for your 1200 Tenere' but TRUE (Yamaha lied!) wet weight is 638 lbs. This well known among owners and journos who actually weigh bikes. :rofl:

So, you're telling us a 400 lbs. (+ or -) is easier to lift up off the ground than a
638 lbs. 1200 Tenere'? At roughly 200 lbs. MORE, I seriously doubt that.

I've ridden the 1200 Ten but on road only and never picked one up ... and would not even attempt it without help. Like the KLR, both lay FLAT on the ground so that first 1/2 meter is tough to raise up.

I owned two KLR's and lifted them out of Baja sand several times ... not easy solo but I could just make it. A well set up KLR (very few are) is not bad off road. No KTM, but you can survive pretty well if you have some skills. Get proper suspension on your KLR, you will see a major difference in handling off road.

I liked the Tenere well enough, but both riding buddies who owned them (bought 1st year bikes) have sold them on. :(

A nick in your fork tube can happen to ANY BIKE and ANY RIDER. Just bad luck. No fault of yours or the bike. (mostly)
Most times the scratch or nick can be buffed out. (carefully, by someone who knows how to do it!). Fork seals most times simply have some crud trapped under rubber sealing lip. Just clean it out and you are good to go.

Riding Soft or Hard, should not affect life of your fork seals. But keeping dirt and grit away is a good idea and proper maintenance should include pulling off oil seals once in a while and cleaning around fork seals.
bier

I know, I raised an eyebrow at that too :) I have no personal view as I haven't ridden either bike, but I knew a reviewer saying a 1000cc monster is better off road than an XR650L would cause a bit of a stir on here! lol

He goes on in the same review to say that it's also better than the BMW GS and KTM Adventure off road. But then again, as I say, how many bottles of wine had Honda bought him while he was writing that review? We won't know for sure what the bike is like until owners start taking them on trips and reporting back. Still, all the reviews of it I read are glowing with praise, so that's still a better sign than reviewers saying it's terrible.

Its called physics my dear ( I Think you are a a dear :D) Lower the center of gravity which changes the weight distribution allowing for an easier pick up. I dono whats up with the Embed on here ? tried it the first go and it did not work, here is a link for a demonstration, it really is this easy.
https://youtu.be/kdxYlQ02CmQ

I liked my KLR, but they are little more than a tractor.


I suspect garbage Sweepers allowed crowd to get inside which allowed the nic. Overall great bike however I do not have time to deal with nonsense soooooooooooo I might have to go back to a tractor bier
Sure it does, if you are riding in mud or high dust areas constantly your seals will wear faster, just as the entire fork takes more abuse from more aggressive riding.
Garbage design in this area and Yamaha should be ashamed.

I doubt a few degrees difference in COG will offset the 200 lbs. plus differential in weight. Sorry mate, don't buy it.

Fact is, any bike layed down flat is tough to right. Try it on a steep hillside in deep, loose gravel ... or deep sand, or mud ... or on an Ice rink road! doh

The crowd at Grand Canyon overlook point parking was well entertained my me trying to pick up my R100RS ... on solid ice pavement. Thank God for BMW's jugs sticking out ... raising CG just enough to allow a lift ... after a few tries.

Little more than a tractor? Yea, whatever. But still lots of folk out there doing RTW on them. Why is that?

At a HU meeting in Copper Canyon years ago ... 105 riders showed up ... 35 of them were riding KLR's. Most of them headed to S. America from there. I'd bet most made it. :innocent:

But since the KLR is not sold in EU or UK (for years), few have interest. It IS outdated, below average performance and somewhat poor in certain areas. Yet folks keep going on them.

I gave my KLR demo back to Kawasaki after a 6500 mile Mexico tour and haven't looked back. But must admit, a well sorted KLR is quite a surprise.
Who knew?
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-qHMC2gJ.jpg
My Kawi press bike ... Copper Canyon, 1998. 6500 miles of Mexico, Baja, Copper canyon. Pic shot from film print. (sorry)

Not likely. Fork tube nics typically come from errant stone at speed ... or somehow something getting forced down in there.
Yamaha didn't design the forks ... Kayaba did.
Yamaha simply picked a tube size and length and decide what to offer in terms of adjustments. (preload, compression, rebound, ride height et al)
:welcome:

You know what hurts my back? 700 mile road days on an uncomfortable bike. Maybe the Super 10 is comfortable enough on the road that when you do drop it, you're feeling nicely relaxed and have plenty of strength left for lifting?

My point being, I read a lot about how horrible it is to pick up 500lbs bikes, but not much about how uncomfortable it is riding for 700 miles on a 350lbs bike.

I'm still working on the theory that it depends what the balance is on your trip. How many hours are going to be spent on a muddy trail? If it's a daily occurrence, then yes a light bike makes sense to me. But if it's 10 minutes out of a month long trip, maybe I'm prepared to hate my life for 10 minutes in return for 30 days of comfort?

It's horses for courses isn't it? 700 mile road days? Get a Super 10. Sahara desert? Get something a lot lighter.

100% road - An R1200RT, Goldwing, something like that.
90% road - An R1200GS, Super 10, something like that.
70% road - A KLR650, something like that.
50% road - a 250cc single...

I still haven't read anything that has convinced me that's a crazy way of looking at it.

Appreciate this is off topic but as a new KLR owner what should i be doing to get my bike set up well?


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I think this is an excellent way of looking at it.

I've done over 700 miles in a day on my XT660Z and it was one of the most comfortable bikes I've ridden; it was at a fairly sedate pace though (70-80 mph).

The only advantage of one of those bigger ones IMHO is the ability to go a bit faster where laws and conditions allow. Me, I'll stick with the middleweight bikes.

Fair play. But the XT660Z is like 450lbs isn't it? A lot of people would say that's still too heavy... And I refuse to believe that something like a KTM 690 Enduro R isn't more tiring to ride 700 miles on highway than a Super 10 would be.

It's 185 kg dry, whatever that is in lbs, so yeah, it's a bit of a lump.
Others might not find it so comfy to ride, but I love it. It's more comfortable than my wee-strom to ride, but the engine is, well, different. It would be a close call if I had to choose between them...

Never ridden the 690R or Super 10, so can't comment on them....

I love these conversations, it's like religion and people get afraid they will be converted if they open their mind a bit.
Then they go on to make up all kinds of scenarios to justify their closed mind like "well it's not a trail bike" no but then we are not talking trail riding now are we. If we were I sure as hell would Be looking for a 250 or a purpose built machine.

They are not for everyone and that is ok, they do offer another tool for the box and that's ok.

I picked one up for two reasons, one I could afford it which I think should always be a factor in anyones decision. second I needed a better two up bike, sorry the middleweights are what they are and two up machines they can be, but are like an over laden burro.

In the end I got a bike that beat the KLR in every single catagory and is a safer ride with infinatley better braking plus It did not get blown around on the highway by big rigs. For me not having to carry around a two by four to assist me in getting a fully laden KLR onto the center stand to lube the chain nearly made it worth it right there.
Tub less tires? Great now I just carry plugs instead of tubes, another win.
The last two are negatives IMO for the twin.


Now after all that if you want a big bike get one, if you do not and the old tractor works for you, that is ok. Ride and have fun, be grateful for whatever you may have, we all know or should at much of the world would like any ride, and we have options.
bier

You may be onto a few KLR forums? Yes? There is SO MUCH good info from long time KLR experts. WAY more than I could ever hope to know.

I've not followed KLR world closely in years, only ridden a few really nicely set up ones. The best ones had upgraded suspension: One had WP forks and most had the Cogent rear shock. They do some nice ones for KLR.

Different bars, risers, plastic tank, better seat, better lighting, lighter muffler and all the usual Doo Hickey and other "fixes" many owners do. Letting the motor breath a bit better would certainly help and a lighter more free flowing exhaust would surely help.

New KLR's are a lot better in the braking dept. then original one. Also, suspension is better too but still not great for a travel bike. I did like the new generation vs. 1st generation, but still room to improvement I'm sure.

Good luck! :scooter:

I think it was KLR650.NET Forums - Your Kawasaki KLR650 Resource! The Original #1 Ranked KLR650 Forum Community but plenty of good forums out there.

The front forks really are not so bad but they usually need a bit more oil

Rear spring is a bit week, may want to upgrade that depending on what you plan on doing.

Dohicky is apparently a must although the mechanics I frequent suggest just do it with a valve adjustment @ 24k

Head bearings can use a bit more lube, nothing to lose sleep over. As the wishbone bolt could usually use a light coating of grease as well.


Lighting IMO is good on the newer KLR as is the tank which has a range of about 250 miles/ do what YOU think you need not what others think is the ideal ride.

Just ride, many people fret over farkles and IMO it is unwarranted. Trust me, the interweb can bankrupt a new bike owner over nonsense.
IMO I am a soft bag fan even though I have both.

The KLR is a tractor for a reason, should give you many trouble free miles.

Edit: depending on your road riding, going a tooth higher on your front sprocket makes a world of difference cruising down the highway;.

Thanks both - that's helpful.

I've had the front and rear springs changed for stiffer ones to match my 97kgs, but wont get to ride the bike before i start so good to know what i must do.

Ive changed the pegs and fitted a bash plate. I plan to fit risers before i leave and change the tyres but thats it.

The whole doohickey thing confused the hell out of me - in the end i concluded best to leave well alone - bike should only have 18k on the clock at the end of my trip, i can sort then.

Cheers
Andy


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Absolutely spot on. Too many people seem to be buying into someone else's idea of the perfect ride.
Buy what suits you and use it where you want to go.



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My reasoning works completely opposite. Workout where you want to go then take the bike that can do it.

For me, the bike is the tool for the job.. It's what facilitates my trip.

In my head I have places I want to go and things I want to see. I then research the roads (if any), the terrain and the distances etc. I then pick my bike accordingly, within my budget.

It's horrible to be restricted where you can go where you can't go because of what bike you're riding. The best places in the world are always off the beaten track, if only by a couple of km.

Next year I might be doing some tour guide work and then the perfect bike would probably be something as dull as a TDM900... But its the correct tool for the job.

To be that hell bent on a certain bike to have your 'adventure' dictated by it either makes you a fanatic (nothing wrong with that) or perhaps a little daft.

Unless of course you don't really want to go adventure riding. But then why would you be on an adventure travel forum !!!

I also think that if you really want something and you can afford it then go for it. Life's too short.

I can see what your saying Ted, but it depends on the riders ability to ride those roads.

Just ride what you like, don't get hung up on what the bike can and can't do, as long as your happy on it doing what your doing.

Btw Ted, but off topic, how did you find Cambodia? We're off there is Feb to visit my son who's working over there.


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I'll PM you..

Makes total sense to me, but I'd add one additional factor: time available to do the trip. Having read all the information on these forums, I'm now pretty convinced that if you have limitless time to travel then something like a Honda CRF250L is probably the ultimate RTW bike. But I actually have a CRF250L and much as I love the thing, I would not want to do high mileage road days on it!

Ultimately, yes, you could say "I don't have enough time available to cross a continent slowly in 250cc style, so I'll just do one country," and that's fine if that's what you want. But for me the challenge of going ocean to ocean and things like that is part of the fun. Yes, I like what I see along the way, and the roads I ride. But I also get a sense of satisfaction in looking back over a map of a long route and thinking "I did that." Don't know why, I just do.

So once you've figured out where you want to go, then you have to figure out how many miles a day you'd have to do to complete the route. If that number is fairly high, then ability to do high mileage highway days is a factor in bike choice in my opinion.

I think you're missing the point of a FORUM and why we are here.:oops2:
The OP asked for thoughts/opinions on the AT. This discussion has been useful & educational IMO ... and has spread to different bikes, some in the same class, some not. Getting "someone else's idea" is the whole point.

Would you have the OP make his choice of bike based on .... NOTHING?
No experience? No feed back from others? No alternatives presented. Forums are here for the exchange of ideas and opinions. If folks don't post at all ... HUBB would just vanish.

Yes, in the end the individual must decide on bike choice ... but it's always best to have done good research about bikes one is interested in. Good or bad, it's all part of it. bier
(who knows, you might actually learn something! :rofl:)

I've enjoyed this thread... it's given me lots of food for thought!

Ultimately, yes, we all buy the bike we want to buy, but no harm in a little bike chat in between rides if you ask me. And if I just wanted to hear a chorus of "the Africa Twin is definitely the best bike ever!" I'd have asked the question on the Africa Twin forum (which is actually growing into a nice little forum, by the way) :)

Actually, a few weeks ago I was leaning heavily towards the Super Tenere instead, but a lot of things I've read lately have contributed to me now favoring the Africa Twin. Although no-one has said "yes, get the AT" - because how can they, no one has ridden it yet - a few of the things said on here has influenced me in the direction of getting the slightly more off-roady of the two. So it's been a useful exercise.

No offense to Super 10 owners though... I do hear they're fantastic bikes, and I think you're all very lucky to have one! :)

Well,I think that is the point of a DS bike, a jack of all trades. It seems in regard to the Tenere anyhow lots found it overall better than the FJR they were riding in regards to comfort, that of course is subjective.
While I think a DS bike makes sense for overall world travel seeing people such as Sajaak and Nick do it on sportbikes certainly makes one wonder.
I guess in the end it just comes down to determination to get it dine regardless of ride, I mean how on earth did the couple on a hog think it was a good Idea to see the world on that big pickle barrel, but they certainly did.:scooter:

I just bought a 2015 Tenere for two up road touring, the two big adventure bikes, GS and Tenere make the most comfortable bikes for this purpose. The AT fits into my way of thinking as a road touring bike for one person.
Lucky that I have other bikes for off road use.

No question the Tenere is the more versatile bike vs. FJR. But not much of a contest there. The FJR has some serious ergonomic problems. Long of leg riders will know this. I loved the power of the FJR but hated the lack of ground clearance, super HEAT and sharply bent knee due to no leg room.

I tested the FJR for 2 day at a Yamaha intro ... fun bike but not one I'd pay for. Any of the Big Trailies, IMO, are better as a travel bike, especially two up.

But put the Tenere' against the usual suspects in the class. That's subjective too ... but it's a closer thing. Most reviews rate the Tenere' down the order a bit with the GS, KTM and MultiStrada consistently rated higher in every category.

I'm not a BMW fan but must rate the BMW R12 GS near the top. KTM and Ducati have more power but something about confidence on bad roads with the BMW puts it out front in most situations. Not the fastest nor lightest but it just works so well on nasty roads. Off road? Good luck!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2..._KntQM-L-1.jpg
How much damage can you do in just 100 yds. of deep sand?

http://www.morocco-knowledgebase.net...ghed-field.jpg

Having downsized in recent years to bikes light enough to ride across ploughed fields that have been mulched with rocks, I didn't think I would be the slightest bit interested in the new Africa Twin.

However there's an extremely positive review by Alun Davies in the Jan/Feb 2016 issue of Adventure Bike Rider that praises the 'low seat, high ground clearance' and positively raves about the DCT in difficult off-tarmac conditions. Quote, "This is the most impressive big bore 'true' adventure bike I've ridden to date." The only criticism was its pillion carrying ability.

I have two friends who both work in a large dealership in the south, they went out to its launch and came back raving about the bike. They are of the opinion that they will sell shed loads of them at the price. It will be almost as big as the yamaha Mt range in their opinion. It looks fantastic and if you watch the video of the two riders coming down a mountain then it's off road abilities are pretty damn good.
I will wait a year or so and then see how it goes , in white /red/blue with gold wheels it is a very very pretty bike Imho ?c?

The more legit reviews I read, the more impressive the Africa Twin appears. As mentioned, the DCT gets great reviews for off road use. The Motorcyclist Video with Ari Henning is good, but does raise a couple questions. Others question ON road cornering security ... maybe they don't trust the 21" front?

I'll wait for comparos against other strong bikes in the class for a full vetting of this new Honda. Once put up against KTM Adv, BMW 12RGS/800GS, Tenere, Ducati Multi and Triumph 800XCX, chinks in Hondas armor may begin to appear. Initial reviews are always positive. Nit picks are yet to come.:detective:

But for a 500 lb. bike it certainly seems good at this point. As of now looks to be the perfect travel bike ... if you want a big, fast bike. Very early days. :beta1:

Always Merry and Bright! :santa::santa::santa:

Why didn't they ride the virgin ground either side?

Maybe there was a sign. "Keep off the grass" :)

Reviews that *gasp* rate euro bikes higher than jap bikes? Nooooo

That is why I killed my magazine subscriptions years ago, regardless of how good a gap bike is and how poorly the Euros do, they always win a shootout.

In the real world I won't waste my time with such bikes, maintenance is more expensive as are parts which can at times be weeks out, regardless of how well they perform. Good luck with that.

The picture is death valley riding to the sliding rocks?

I forgot to add the euro bikes are thousands more which should price point themselves out of the common Mericans hands. Price and fiscal responsibility should always be on the common mans mind. It is indeed a deciding factor in my mind.

For me the Tenere checked all the boxes I wanted, if it doesn't work for someone else that's ok. .
If I did not have a Tenere, the Frica would be close in my eyes.

I second riding on the lawn.

Well the UK price is ten thousand four hundred pounds, my view is that as an every day bike, or for touring then it looks pretty good. As an rtw bike I'm not so sure..... Its too big and complicated. I agree with my two sales friends it's a big bike for Honda, they had to get it right as their range is a bit stale to say the least especially when compared with yamaha, it will sell shed loads unless there is a reliability gremlin hiding somewhere.
I mean if BMW can sell thousands of overweight underpowered bikes then why not Honda :oops2:

At the UK bike show of last month I didn't get nearer than approximately 5 m to the 3-4 ATs that were being displayed.
It would have been easy to sit on any one of them, stand on the pegs etc but it does nothing for me when the bikes are more or less bolted to the floor.
The main reason I didn't bother however is the old adage that I don't buy a new-to-the-market product in the first year of production, and I often wait longer than one year.

Standing back that 5 m or thereabouts I was struck by how "1980s - 1990s" the colour schemes of the new AT appear to my eye.
There is something of the United Colours of Benetton about the livery.

Right you are! Thing is ... it's just as soft on either side. :oops2:
Been there, done that!

But getting off track is slightly better as big Power Trucks DIG UP the track for fun. It eventually becomes Silt (Fesh Fesh). We find this in Baja too ... 1000 HP Trophy trucks ruin nice two track and make it tough on a bike.

On your KTM you'd just click down a gear, gas it and get past the mesh on the verge. Those silt beds can eat the best of them. doh

New Africa Twin (I don't get it)
 

Everyone I've met doing RTW or long trips on 250cc bikes have never said they wished they'd taken a heavier, more powerful bike, but many I've met on big bikes told me they'd wished they had taken something lighter. It's a shame that no one will make a proper RTW bike, I guess if we all chipped in here it would end up looking kinda like a moto version of that car Homer Simpson makes for his long lost brother.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...50513890ab.jpg

Yes, BMW and KTM have dominated the Big Trailie class for years. But only Yamaha has come up with any real competition. But how much competition can a 638 lbs. bike be? :nono:

Both BMW GS and KTM (990, 1190, 1290) are close to 100 lbs. lighter weight, have more HP with better all round attributes. Of course the Tenere wins big on COST, Maintenance and ultimate reliability. Which would I take to Mongolia?
Japanese Please! :chinese:

But motorcycle purchase is an emotional thing ... hence tens of thousands buy the Euro dream machines. (NOT ME!) :nono:

Lately that's true. But don't blame the mags. What else can report on since Kawi, Honda and Suzuki are not really in the Big ADV fight?

BMW and KTM got the class to themselves in the BIG EXPENSIVE Giant trailie area. You could toss in the Multi Strada ... which I've also ridden and wouldn't even dare take it on a fire road. :rofl:

Yamaha are in there but to me the big Ten is ill conceived with weight being biggest negative. It feels HEAVY (to me)

Many former GS riding buddies mostly all now ride KTM. Some tried (or owned the big Tenere briefly) but all ended up (as of now) on a new KTM every year. These are not "common men" :oops2:

But I'd reserve judgement until you've ridden a new KTM back to back with your Tenere'. And the newest GS-LC is also quite impressive. It's actually FAST.
A first for me riding big GS's. (I tested and reviewed: R1100, R1150, R1200GS)

The new 12 is a mind blower. The KTM? Try one out, then we'll talk.

Here we agree. I know all too well the PISS POOR reliability and massive up keep a BMW (and KTM) can cost. Guys I know can afford them and don't go RTW on a bike.

I've towed a few fairly new GS's to safety. Basic service costs at a dealer are ABSURD. Forget it! Even if I could pay, I wouldn't. :taz:
I've got friends who work at BMW shops. In private they're disgusted by the prices and by how frequently the bikes fail.

The good news is reliability has improved the last few years and BMW are now more forthright about admitting screw ups and covering it. KTM too are better. Early 950's were a nightmare of broken motors (most caused by failed water pumps or broken valve gear) The 990's weren't much better but since then we see improvement.

You mean the "Race Track"? No, I believe this is somewhere in Eastern Mojave,
South East of DV. Over 10 years ago, IIRC.

My question remains, how long were those on the 250cc bikes traveling for? I've actually got a Honda CRF250L, and if I took a year off work to travel around the world that is the bike I would take, absolutely. And I wouldn't go near a major highway if I could possibly avoid it.

But in reality, my trips are likely to be a month, two months, maybe three if I'm lucky. Ok, I could see the world one country at a time on a 250cc bike and keep flying home, but as I've said before, I like the experience of traveling long distances on a trip... there's something I like about continent crossing. While I do like to see things along the way and don't want to do a world record attempt, I'm also ok with not having seen every single thing there is to see in a country as I ride through it.

This necessitates some high-mileage highway days, there is just no avoiding it. And honestly, I would rather pick up a 500lbs bike 3 times a day than ride 700 miles on a highway on my CRF250L, I really would. Don't get my wrong, great bike... but not built for highways. Also, at highway speeds the fuel economy drops off alarmingly, and the tank is tiny so you'd need an aftermarket tank.

It's like I keep saying, horses for courses. I don't think anyone disputes that the answer to the question of "I'm taking a year to ride around the world solo. What bike should I take?" is "a 250cc single." But many riders are asking a different question, which is "I want to travel a great distance over a couple of months. I'll mainly be riding on paved roads, but very occasionally I'll be riding on gravel. What bike should I take?" And from the reviews I've read it sounds like the Africa Twin could be a worthy answer to that question.

Very thoughtful comments from someone who's been out there, done it and thought about it a lot. :thumbup1:
Couple thoughts:
First off, I agree the Africa Twin is likely to be a GREAT travel bike for what you've described. But since you're doing 1 month to 3 month trips, seems to me you could pick and choose THE RIGHT BIKE for the region you intend to cover

More off road or small, slower roads? Your CRF250L perhaps? Or if a fair mix of Off road/On road, then maybe go up a class to 450's? Or even 650cc class.

For mostly On Road travel I have hope the Africa Twin will do well, but may be even BETTER bikes for "mostly pavement" rides, consider: BMW GS, Vstrom, Aprilia Capo Nord, Yamaha Tenere 1200, Ducati Multistrada, various big KTMs. (1050, 1290, 800?), Kawi Versys 1000.

Regards your willingness to pick up a heavy bike 3 times a day ... may be more too it. When you fall you always risk having that lump fall on your leg, ankle, foot. Seen in in person many times. Not pretty. The other Wild Card is damage to bike. Some bikes crash well, some do not. Bikes like your CRF250L
or my DR650, both can hit the ground and rarely sustain serious damage.

But try that with a Vstrom, Multistrada or Capo Nord. We don't know how the Africa Twin will survive a crash, from the looks I say "pretty good". The Motorcyclist guy, Ari Henning, nearly bought it in the video, nearly high sided at 70 or 80 mph riding desert tracks. How would the bike survive a crash at that speed. I'm betting young Ari shit himself on that one! :rofl:

Your "Horses For Courses" comment, to me, is SPOT ON. :thumbup1:
And this is why I'd consider a different bike for every trip. Buy and prep for a certain region. Do trip, sell off bike. Next up, do it all again, perhaps change bikes ... or? bier
Just a few of mine going back to the 90's, mostly in Mexico, USA and Canada. All had their highs and lows for travel. I also did shorter trips ... and have tried lots of bikes from ALL classes. bier
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-fNc76PP.jpg
XL600R - Headed to Baja (700 mile ride to border) in the 80's, plus thousands mi. more on/off road in California, Nevada.
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-qHMC2gJ.jpg
KLR Press Bike in Copper Canyon in '98
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-bTZxjT8.jpg
Aprilia CapoNord press bike for review. Tested for two months, 2500 miles.
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-3p9vdgF.jpg
Tiger- 3 months riding UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Morocco.
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-nnV3cFG.jpg
strom, 90,000 miles of USA, Mexico, Canada. Thousands of pics.
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-xcKfvms.jpg
XR250 3 weeks in Baja
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-p4x9N2b.jpg
WR250 California Desert, Sierra Nevada mtns., plus one two ween Baja ride.
https://patricksphotos.smugmug.com/p.../i-Rbgkd5N.jpg
DR650 in Baja. 65,000 miles, rides through California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado 5 Mexico trips since 2006.

Like I said, the yami checked all the boxes for me although a used GS was very nearly my steed instead. Thoughts of the Ages: Why does the Yamaha Super Tenere not get the reviews of KTM & BMW Adventure?
its the same regardless of type of bike, thus my statement.

some story every type of bike. I have about as much use for magazines as I do modern yellow journalism in the main stream media.

What common man making 40k a year can afford a 20k toy? supertenere.com is filled full of the opposite, course to be fair klr650.net is filled full of lots of people who went backwards completely.
I have no doubt a KTM probably is a great riding test machine, to own? no way in hell see my blog. besides, I am not a want kind of guy at all, never have been.

they go rtw on a jet:D?

A few years ago I was bikeless and was talked into a ninja250 do to its crazy good gas mileage.
The bike was fun as shit to tool around on town with, but on the highway beyond the comfort level of a 4x4 it was nearly useless, that is the one bike I have no regrets getting rid of.
I am along your line of thinking, I would rather tour on a touring type steed over suffering at all anymore. Will I ever ride RTW in one fell swoop? Unlikely, I have spent nearly every day of my life in the wilderness and I look forward to sleeping on the ground about as much as I do to hitting my finger with a hammer, not at all.
Most people really will not either, thus why these big bikes make complete and total sense, especially if you only plan on riding fireroads etc, they soak up the bumps just fine and unlike how many people seem to think, it is not extreme at all IMO> I rode my zx6r on the dirt with qualifiers all the tiem with zero issues, hell the same went in snow, as I did on with my old cruiser. Course I am from Montana, so my Idea of a bad road is nothing like most people whot think any dirt under their wheels is an adventure and requires the best dirt tire.
being realistic is the smart thing regardless of what bike you own.
jeiger

I vote would for a KTM 390 adv, some need to just slow down and smell , it wouldnt hurt to see something along the way either.

Mollydog - great to see a Strom in those pictures, as an ex-DL650 owner myself! Still miss that bike a bit, I must say... not 'cool' or 'sexy,' but still easy to love somehow.

Re: Been there and done it - I've only been riding at all for about 4 or 5 years. But in that time I have done a few 4000-5000 mile trips. What I haven't done though is any long trip that has involved any off-road sections, other than riding from the road to the camp site. Actually, saying that, I did ride some gravel roads along my Route 66 trip, but didn't really learn much from that other than that a 700lbs cruiser with zero suspension travel isn't the right bike for unpaved roads... but I already kinda knew that!! :)

The reason that I'm in the market for an 'adventure bike' is that I'm interested in doing some rides that have a little off-road in them. Not a lot... probably less than 10%, maybe less than 5%... but still a little.

I think you're probably right that the new Africa Twin isn't going to be the best road bike of the class... in fact, that was the premise of my opening post :) But I don't know, somehow it is appealing to me nonetheless. Maybe the other big adventure bikes are biased 90/10 in favor of road riding, and the AT is 87/13? I'm finding that strangely interesting for some reason...

Shrek - I think you're right, and it's not stated enough that actually, riding long highway days on an uncomfortable bike can really put a downer on your trip. I've had days where my back hurts, or something like that where I can barely think about the riding and enjoyment because I'm so preoccupied about being sore. I experience a lot more on a trip if I'm comfortable and can enjoy what I'm seeing.

Yokesman - talk my boss into giving me another few months off work so that I can travel slowly, then we'll talk. ;) By which I mean yes, traveling slowly is preferable to traveling quickly. But if you're not able to travel slowly, maybe traveling quickly is still better than not traveling at all?

From the perspective of the old Twin, mine is great everywhere except motorways. Above 65-70mph it becomes hard work and really doesn't like being pushed that hard.
I've done loads of miles on it, but planned routes to avoid using much motorways.
But as you've say, this limits you on time. If you've only got 2 or 3 weeks to travel, you can only cover so much distance.
With this in mind, I've bought a Tiger 800. Great bike to ride and suits me more as I come from a sports bike background.
I've kitted it up as I need it and have already had some great trips out on it.

I sat on the new twin at the NEC, but you really can't get the feel of a bike when it's fastened down. I will go and look at my dealer when they have them in, maybe get a test ride if they have a demo.
It does look interesting, but I don't know if I would want to drop any bike a currently own for one. It felt very similar ergonomically to my 2001 Twin to sit on, and with at least 40hp more should be very capable and not have the short fall I found on the original.

Like I said before though, it depends what you want and where your going to ride, as well as being honest to yourself with your abilities.
I did a lot of Europe on a ZZR, it was perfect for what I wanted at the time. I don't really do off road, but do appreciate the ergonomics of the twin and tiger. That and the carrying capacity.

Hope you find what your looking for.


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