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perfect size engine ........................
Why ........... do we not have a engine about 400 cc and around 40 bhp ?
perfect for a small adventure bike ...... not too powerful and good on the road Do we remeber the Honda xr 400 ? a perfect trail bike. currently on a t700 ( too much bike of road for most people and a crf 300 rally .... great off road . but a bit weedy on tarmac ) ?c??c??c??c? |
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Great on the road ? Nope ! But better than an XR400. You simply can't have a bike which performs well off-road without sacrificing on-road. And vice versa. As always, I think the best compromise is a softer, less agressive 400-600 trail bike which is made more comfortable for the road. Seat, screen, rubber pegs etc. It's harder making a road bike into a suitable off-road bike. |
I remember trying for half an hour to kick start my XR400R when it had taken a tumble, though I believe there was an electric starter version/option later. I've had my KTM 690 Enduro R since 2013 and not seen a better alternative yet.
Ted makes a good point above about needing to start with an offroad bike. My 790 Adventure is great on road, but too heavy for offroad touring with luggage. Whilst the CRF300 Rally is a definite step in the right direction (and looks OK for my style of 'bumbling offroad touring), it's the same weight as my 690. I believe singles are a challenge with emissions but a twin-cylinder 400-500cc would be great, preferably not too high a seat, thank you. |
Yep life is a compromise !..... Honda could have nailed it with the crf450 .......... but too tall just a big fast enduro bike ! the drz i found very hard work as it had no low down grunt and crap om the road
My crf 300 rally is getting there ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but far to heavy and just lacking a bit of power ! but looks like a real " rally " bike ! .... looking forward to a 350 version one day !!!!!!! keith note for ted .............. what bike are you taking to maroc then ? |
If I had a dime for everytime I heard "Why doesn't someone make the perfect adventure bike"....
Because really; very few people need, want or would buy one. What percentage of bikers are needing a perfect Overlanding bike capable of all conditions ? I would hazard a guess that only 10% of Overland riders seek out unpaved roads. It's generally more a question of "If the road runs out, how best can I prepare my road bike to cope" For Morocco. I'm very much torn over my XRV750 Africa Twin or a much smaller and lighter XT600E or DRZ400S The Africa twin is definately preferable for the long ride down and the road sections. But it's going to limit where I venture because of it's size. The smaller bikes will allow to to explore the backroads with more confidence. But make every other road tiring and slow. I'm sure I'll have a great time whichever bike I chose. It will just be different. Perhaps the best option would be to ride the Africa Twin down and maybe hire a dirt bike and take a tour over the dunes. |
DR 400, Kove 450, KTM 390, R Enfield 411,Versys300, Zontes310, BMW310, or you can bore out a honda 300 and put better springs on it
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Well yeah that's true, and it's also true that simple, rugged bikes exist that don't have all that stuff, trouble is they're 20-30 years old and nothing lasts forever, no matter how simple or rugged it is. If I'm riding through the middle of nowhere I'd like to be fairly confident a frame or crankshaft isn't going to break. And that means a relatively new bike, even with all the electrickery. Then you have the question, "how big?" Nobody needs 1250ccs and all the associated weight to go on an adventure, then again 50cc with severely limited roadgoing and luggage carrying ability is something of an acquired taste. To my mind that means a "middleweight" (maybe 400-650cc), no more than two cylinders and as few electronics as possible. My 2010 Versys fitted that bill pretty well though for an "adventure" tour it lacks in off-road-ability. From today's offerings available on the European market I'd probably shortlist: Light/Middleweights
Bigger bikes
The provisos on here are that most of the smaller bikes, in particular the middleweights, are "adventure styled" more than I would say true "adventure bikes" and may need a fair bit spending on them to make them more suitable for the role. The bigger ones are better suited straight out of the box but of course suffer from higher weight and greater bulk that their little cousins. *Sigh* no unicorns, again... |
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keith |
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For licensing reasons, 35kw is a cutoff for manufacturers. Anything that crawls over the 35kw/A2 mark is worth making as a much bigger and more powerful engine. So what you're talking about is the CB500X, KTM 390, Versys X-300, F310GS - all bikes that exist and have been reasonably successful for their manufacturers. And the answer to "why don't they make an offroad bike with an engine big enough for onroad performance" - essentially "why doesn't Honda build a CRF500L from the factory" - is: because the number of people who would spend their own money on a new one at a dealership is maybe triple digits, worldwide. In practice, the people who are able and willing to spend 10-12-15k EUR on a brand-new machine, either have the skills to use a T700/790R-sized bike for their offroad adventures, or are actually looking for a weekend toy that they can take to the trailhead in a van, and happily buy a CRF450/450EXC/WR400. |
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I think this is a really interesting thread it's interesting to see everyone else's replies as well and could be a great resource for others I'm new to travelling overland in the respect of using green lanes and stuff like that.
I think alot of it is about compromise :) I'm on a Honda 300 Rally now which I think's a really good compromise bike wise. For reference point I've had 30 motorcycles an in order ADV wise I've had: Bmw 1200 GSA TE 2014, Suzuki V-Strom 1000XT, BMW F800GS (at the time I thought that was a small bike compared to the other two) Suzuki V-Strom 650xt 2020 absolutely loved that on the road. Ktm 390 adv unfortunately rejected for refund at 269 miles along with dads at 147 miles due to issues with tech faults an build issues, that lead onto a R1200GS TE Rallye but with my permanent shoulder injury the return to a GS started aggravating it so that after 8 weeks had to go which was at the time a shame. Then a Himalayan that was also refunded at 500 miles full off issues. A few other bikes I've had have been a 1927 Norton 16h 500cc flat tanker (current ride) 1967 650 SS Norton which is a 650 twin been my daily rider for the past 4 years inc winters as I don't have a car, 68 Commando an a Yamaha rd350lc. In the past I've had superbikes 750s and 1000s an ex iom TT race bike, rzv500r v4 two stroke, rd250lc's, rd250c's so quite a bit of variety in engine CC aircooled liquid cooled, twin's singles v4's two strokes and 4 strokes through the generation's light an heavy bikes 675 triples etc an ive ridden 750 triples both two and 4 stroke. I'd love to see Honda do a 350 or 400 CC version of it I've always thought of the 350 as a very sweet point engine wise as a twin or a single. It's been interesting having the 390 - Himalayan and 300 rally in very quick succession with a gs inbetween as comparing was very fresh in my mind. I think a slightly longer stroke 500 single but modern built with water cooling could be interesting. My own take on what I look for in an all roads travel bike an I think this is the interesting point as everyone will be different with different levels of experience I would like to think I'm pretty experienced on road riding and track but with green laning and unsealed road riding it's a whole new aspect to my riding which has opened up a whole new world for me from a travel perspective and enjoyment in my riding, which has then lead to a total shift in what I look for in a motorcycle now. Reliability being 1st as when I'm riding on my own, light weight this has been the biggest shift although it aligns with what I used to think when I preferred my rd250lc to my modern bikes(did 2,000 miles in a week on the 250lc regularly) luggage carrying capacity and some protection from the elements. Ground clearance to is one I never thought about until experiencing the Himalayan and the Rally both on green lanes with the lane I did on the Rally being say a 3-4 difficulty (bump that up to 6 for my inexperience) and the Himalayan one being a 1 on the difficulty scale the light weight low power and ground clearance of the Rally lead to it being way more confidence inspiring which I guess leads into CC being on a scale of what is the most capable for the environment it's to be used in. Ground clearance, engine design and CC also go hand in hand if you look at the bigger cc twins being more top heavy. I've also come to the realisation as well I don't need the big power this is a personal thing in the way I like to ride a bike preferring a smaller more engaging ride, especially in the UK we have seen a huge shift in number 1 the condition of the roads being very sub par, number 2 the smart motorways I did a 300 mile ride to Llanberis the other day on the 300 rally and on the way used a roads and on the way back used a section of motorway. which for the entire length on the smart motorway was down to 40 - 50 - 60 and only hit 70 for a 4 mile section then it was back down to 50 for those that don't live over here those are covered in speed cameras, so now that shifted the smaller cc stuff to being more usable. My own personal feeling now is that lighter weight and smaller CC is the way to go. Which is my main bugbear with modern motorcycles at the moment huge weight, huge CC and big seat heights all leads to companies being able to charge more and more, more features more electronics etc means more add on package and a bigger otr price. The bikes that slew that being the CRF300 Rally and T7 interest me the most it's a shame the T7 didn't wind up being lighter like the prototype was rumoured to be. Which ultimately is pushing our amazing hobby further into elitism and away from the normal person. I think weight more so than CC is the big huge difference, if you look at the weight of my gsa 1200 I had to the 300 rally the difference is immense, if you look at the difference in manageability from the Himalayan to the CRF300 Rally again the difference in weight more so than CC makes a huge huge difference. So I think it's important that the ranges are filled out with lighter motorcycles look at the Yamaha ADV Range 1 motorcycle with different variants. When I was initially looking at motorcycles for mine an dads trip to Norway Iceland and Morocco next year a 310GS was actually my first thought and when posting on Instagram out of the blue I actually got a message from someone at Bmw asking why I was considering the 310 and not the bigger bikes having had them as they couldn't understand it. I think that's the shame really there's clearly a market for lighter smaller cc stuff as everyone get's older then can't manage the heavier stuff then for people my age and younger who are coming through and insurance is expensive etc, I had max no claims and no points an my smaller bikes are nearly as much as what I paid for a blade back when I was 22 on the insurance. I think the smaller CC stuff has alot of advantage to it, lower weight, higher mpg no matter how much I rev the CRF300 Rally I'm getting 92mpg on it now the engine is loosening up at 600 miles. Lower cost more simple when it needs a refresh or a rebuild. if we leave the Himalayan out of the equation for a moment and look at the 390 Adventure vs the 300 Rally from two different total approaches the 390 had the snap off speed but with that came heavy vibration at revs and less fuel economy than the rally, less ground clearance but better suspension the wheel sizes were better for the road, but the crf has better wheels for off road. Then the 390 had lots of tech which caused issue from the get go from a tech point of view I never got to take that off road. I think the 300 Rally nails the brief, light for an adv bike low power, all routes capable, motorway capable (in the uk) smooth but a fun engine on the road and good on the rough stuff with a decent tank range and amazing mpg. It'd be interesting if they did a bigger CC one but then again we would be back into more weight or shorter service intervals. It's al a trade off though the one thing they really missed I know everyone mentions the suspension and rightly so but the seat is atrocious lol although better than the Himalayan one. I think alot comes down to engine design and compromise of that one thing that's utterly shocked me with the Honda unit is just how smooth it is I was on the Motorway the other day 68mph half the revs to go in 6th and it was smooth it's amazing in some ways having ridden stuff from 1927 motorcycles haven't progressed as much as you think in some ways but have in others it always fascinates me. If I was at a motorcycle company I'd produce a very modern 400 single a slightly longer single with counterbalancers with 40hp and a 500 twin similar to the CRF500L's some people are building wasn't the T7 meant to be much lighter when it was first rumoured. it's fascinating learning from you all an obviously this is just my take coming from the perspective of a road and track rider making a few ricks in my choice of adv bikes and finally settling on something that's manageable, reliable, with not to much power and a sensible seat height with the overly soft suspension if needs be I can get both feet down an the same when I fit rally raid level 1. That's my thoughts on CC currently and how it relates to what I now personally look for in a motorcycle and how CC and weight relate into that. I think the top 3 current bikes and current available CC in my mind are. The Honda CRF300 Rally thats my top pick and where I decided to spend my money. The Yamaha T7 is one im curious about although I've heard they are top heavy which leads back to weight and CC. The Ktm 690 / Husky 701 is interesting although I personally prefer a cable throttle. It's hard to ignore it's power to weight though. It's mad that the groundwork for the bikes we are all fancying have been done in the 70s and 80s/90s but with a few modern tweaks could be amazing to the design of the bikes without adding tech. |
400 cc bikes
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We get what we ask for.
Now this is not limited to specific kind of bike. A dealer hare have tried to sell Kawasaki 400 cc bike. But no one buys. 125 cc or over 600 cc 600-750 is "mid range bikes", compared to 1200-1250 c bikes. I do not understand the market. But I do understand the companies. They develop what they can sell...... At least for the European and US market. Royal Enfield developed the Himalayan first for the internal market. But it is now success in large parts of the world. They found a type of bike that the Japanese companies had left rather empty. = So I am happy riding around on my 20 years old Honda NX 4 400 cc, 30 hp, 150 kg.... Carburetor, manual choke, Analogue instruments, ABS: No, LED panel: No. Riding modes: No... But good for me (Portugal was the only country in Europe that imported this model) https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mo...da_nx4_02.html = Hondas has produced NX 250 and NX 400 earlier. And later the XRE 300. For the South American market. https://motos.honda.com.co/motos-hon...re-300-abs-dlx Where 300 cc bike is considered a large bike. The "normal" is 160-200 cc. |
What is considered perfect is very subjective and ditto personal. So there will never be any unison agreement about this. Personally if I was to set out on a new RTW trip or long overlanding trip I would most probably choose the Honda Crf300 Rally. If I was only or mostly to ride in Europe or north-America I would probably choose something a bit bigger. CB500X, V-Strom 650, Transalp or similar….
Thats me then, others travellers sure have other ideas and other POV. Whats perfect for me most certainly isnt perfect for Touring Ted or Tim Cullis. We are all different and thats good. |
Would you be describing the concept and reason why I've built two of these....?? CB500 twin pot in a CRF chassis hailed as the 'Unicorn' of Dual Sport bikes. My original search over 6 years ago for a build concept was driven by my like of a twin engine and my love of offroading. At that time I was considering butchering a KLE500 but deferred to a Honda CRF, a lighter bike with a more robust engine and sharper looks was required and I found a small group of builders (3 at the time now around 10 builds worldwide) and dived in head first....
I keep bumping into post's like this which give me a warm glow of justification for choosing and building the bike/bikes. The CRF500L. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...63fb5bd26c.jpg Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk |
If you want a 30 HP, 120 kg trailbike you need to show me the numbers. As importer I need to do a type approval, marketing material etc. My first guess is that we need to move 1000 units a year inside the EU's jurisdiction for five years.
Six different Enfield 350's that we are making anyway in India that'll appeal to all those baby boomers who can no longer get an R1250RS off It's stand I can see will fly. Who do I sell the unicorn overland bike to? The Starbucks ADV crowd will call it underpowered for their Sunday afternoon blast round the M25 to get home in time to watch the antiques road show. Training companies and pizza delivery see no need for the additional running costs. Actual overlanders will look at the price tag and decide to wait until a three year old one comes up. Anyway, I disagree with the spec, no one needs more than 9.7 HP and I'm *****d if I'm spending all day letting a clutch in and out by hand like it's 1940 https://i.postimg.cc/52ygBL93/20230310-111128-01.jpg Andy |
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