Petition - UK bikers please read and sign
 

Motorcyclists at the head of a group of riders will face stiffer penalties for speeding under a crown court ruling.
Being the lead rider in a group is an aggravating factor making you partly responsible for speeding offences of those behind you according to the decision.
The ruling can be applied in any future cases where two or more motorcyclists riding together are accused of speeding. The head rider might be only a few mph over the limit but could be given the same penalty as the worst offender behind.
Road traffic solicitor Robert Dobson said: “Any crown court decision can be stated in future cases. This is potentially a very dangerous judgment for motorcyclists.
"Riders in a group change position frequently.
“If you are riding at the front any group at excess speed, then the very fact you’re at the front is an aggravating factor.”
Ken Clark, 49, reached 85mph on his Yamaha R1 while leading a group of three riders on the 60mph A272 near Rogate, Sussex, last June.
The speed is within the usual threshold for a fixed penalty of three points and a £60 fine.
But Chichester Crown Court ruled he should receive the same penalty as a following rider accused of going 103mph.
Barrister notes on the ruling given to Clark after the hearing state: ‘Although his was the lesser speed, [the bench] found it an aggravating feature that he was the lead motorcyclist, was setting the pace and he knew that the other two motorcyclists would want to catch him up and would be speeding to do so.’
The court rejected Clark’s appeal against six points, a £100 fine and £250 court costs.
Clark said: “This should have been three points and a £60 fine but so far it’s cost me £2,500 including solicitors’ bills and I have six points on a licence which has been clean for the last 24 years.”
Clark’s solicitor, Philip Somarakis, said 103mph was the speed reached by a police officer on an unmarked bike while tailing Clark's two friends, but the prosecution accepted it was not possible to prove from video evidence that Clark himself had exceeded 85mph.
“The gist of the ruling is that to be a lead motorcyclist makes you somehow responsible for the actions of those behind you,” he added.
Gary Baldwin, former police motorcyclist and co-director of advanced riding school Rapid Training, said: “It's a dangerous precedent to suggest you are now responsible for someone who's in control of another vehicle.
"How do I control what they do? If someone is following me and I get in an overtake that they don't, they may go faster to catch up but that is their choice.”

If you support the overturning of this ruling, then use the below link to add your name to the petition.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lead-Biker-Fined/

Much as I support the motive, count me out.

I see no good reason to allow the present information paranoid, snooping government to gather more information of me and further categorise my interests and potential nuisance to them or the authorities they are politically in charge of.

Such No. 10 petitions are just that. They learn ones name, address, IP number and Email address in one simple way.
If someone with a form of autism, from the comfort of his home, can defeat all the security systems of the strongest military in the World by hacking into the Pentagon computors, think what the state can do with such identity information willingly given.

I am thinking of changing my member name to 'No 7' except Grant generally does not allow changes!
(One for the older riders!)

This is annoying but will be thrown out on appeal. The prosecution already admitted defeat and must have been well shocked to actually win.

The notes don't say if all the offenses were tried together but it sounds like they were. I'd sack my solicitor for allowing that.

They key to this is probably what was said at the road side and worst of all stopping when one rider gets pulled. You can't help a mate who was speeding so why stop and present a second target? If you are asked if you are riding as a group the answer is "No, we are not an organised group, we are a friends going to the same place". If you are asked how fast you think you were going it's "60 mph" or "just under the speed limit". Do not converse with these officious numpties on their unmarked tax collection devices, the only point of the whole convesation is to gather enough evidence to hang yourself, so say as little as possible and they'll go pick one someone else. Not doing "about 85 mph" helps of course.

I agree the petition is a waste of time, but I'll sign anyway, they already know where I live.

Andy

Where did this report come from ?

I do like the statement about not giving information.

IPS are now required to keep the information about you, IP, name, addrress, site history and if that doesn't alarm you, they get to record all of your email headers too! Fortunatly the Governement in the UK hasn't had time to alter the Computer Missue Act or the Post Office Act to allow them to look at the content without an Order of the Court, but no doubt that will come along too, hidden under some bad news about another dead, kidnapping of natural disaster.

I do tend to agree with the overal view that if someone is speeding then they get whats coming to them.

And it's sound advice to deny you are riding as an organised group - not only does this set you aside from the other individuals, but there are insurance implications to group riding too, should something go wrong.

Remember though that Roads Policing Officers are there when it all goes wrong, they are the one telling loved ones of death, hospitalisation or worse, the fact your mate/brother/sister/son/daughter etc has killed someone else. So give them a brake when they give you the third degree form speeding. They are trying to save you from yourself, and others from your potential mistakes.

I used to ride with some guys who liked the buzz of speed, but now I don't, I preffer to ride solo but when I do ride in group I like to be with guys who keep the speed sensible - it helps having a bike that doesn't encourage speeding, but at the end of the day it's all about attitude.

Personally, I don't sign these any more, they do little good as it's just lip service, that generates a prescribed reponse from the PM at the end - then destined for the archive tapes for a few years. It's a fact then the easier it is to start these petitions, the more will be generated and it comes down to information overload, that is never looked at!

Much better for the MAG to take this up in the coridors of Westminister.

I'll get off my soapbox now! Sun's out so it's :scooter:

Simples - stay within the speed limits .. obey the law.

Maybe live a little longer in the process.




.

"obey the law" - fair enough but I'm not taking the blame for someone else's carelessness whether I know them or not...

I can't believe that some people are supporting this prosecution...

Lets take the following scenario....
Rider 1 is riding right on the speed limit.....
Rider 2 is 5 mph over the limit to catch up...
Rider 3 is 10 mph over the limit to catch up....

Is Rider 1 responsible for the actions of those following him..
Does he still deserve to be prosecuted Mick.

NO

No 7
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/3..._raceemp00.jpg

When stopped for speeding who hasn't heard this -

Police officer;" Who the Hell do you think you are laddie -- Barry Sheene ?"

[ OK I'm old ! ]

This is outrageous .
How can you be legally responsible for the actions of people following you ?
What defines a group ?
If someone just tags along behind you ,are you now a group ?

All this sanctimonius twaddle about "obeying the law " is laughable , every single person reading this has broken some law at some time .Speeding - we've all done it !
Bloody hell ,when I was a kid I used to find a big hill and tear down it on my pedal bike at over 30 mph .
I don't imagine the old codger pedalling to work at the factory with his flat cap and sandwiches wrapped in wax paper would be happy to be held responsible for me speeding on my pedal bike !!!!!!!!!!!

As for being worried about the government getting your particulars , they already know and have done for some time . I don't think the stormtroopers will be coming yet to snatch you from your bed at dawn ,just because you are a "motorcyclist " - but then again they might !
It might be better to buy a nice sensible motorcar in a shade of grey that won't draw attention .:(

What a mixed bunch posted so far in this thread, I can't believe they way a few support the courts:eek3:

Good on 'Dodger' and a few others that are against these ideas, sorry, but the rest of you are spineless.

funny enough, me and my mate were on our way back from huddersfield this aft when we were spot stopped by about 12 coppers. my mate was leading (ish) and he had a dodgy front 'L' plate (actually he had a pathetic excuse for an 'L' plate, he might as well have stuck a dead fish on the front of his bike) I believe this was the sole reason we BOTH got stopped. Irony is, he was sent off to get a new 'L' plate and bring it back, and I had to face up to johnny law and friends as they inspected my bike.

To that point, I was very happy with the questions they asked and the rituals I was asked to perform. I was notified of a worn down rear break pad and given a full reason why we were stopped. Professional job in my opinion, none of this "the police are rulling us" s***e experienced.

As for the matter in hand, each person on this earth is acountable for his/or her actions. I wouldnt shoot some one in the head and expect to see the bloke who sold me the gun sent down. I dont expect anyone behind me in a group to keep the same speed, its their prerogative.

peace and love.

[quote=tommysmithfromleeds;266371]funny enough, me and my mate were on our way back from huddersfield this aft when we were spot stopped by about 12 coppers. my mate was leading (ish) and he had a dodgy front 'L' plate (actually he had a pathetic excuse for an 'L' plate, he might as well have stuck a dead fish on the front of his bike) I believe this was the sole reason we BOTH got stopped. Irony is, he was sent off to get a new 'L' plate and bring it back, and I had to face up to johnny law and friends as they inspected my bike.

To that point, I was very happy with the questions they asked and the rituals I was asked to perform. I was notified of a worn down rear break pad and given a full reason why we were stopped.


This is how it should be done ,IMHO, send the silly bugger off to get a new L plate ,no prosecutions , no fines ,just a simple lesson to "not be a twat ".

If they tell you why you were stopped ,and you listen and learn ,then you will avoid grief in the future . Smile, call them sir ,and then once they are out of sight -----------!

:innocent:

Whats an 'L' plate ? :clap:

http://www.wellcoolstuff.com/Merchan...niceonep17.jpg

hahaha, was it a good night then dodger?

a policeman's lot
 

There was a time when I had considered a career in the policeforce ;
http://msnmand.dk/image/115779/0/450/380


:eek3:

"You do not have to boobs anything...err...I mean say anything..."

But I could see that the job was going to be too stressful.
http://izismile.com/img/img2/20091006/policemen_00.jpg

Erica Roe...........remember her well!

Obviously you are confused , this thread concerns speeding and not murderers and paedophiles .

You daft old fart :rolleyes2:

Last edited by Mick O'Malley : 11 Hours Ago at 10:03. Reason: Forgot a bit.


Althzeimers also kicked in! :rofl:

Er, no. It concerns respect for the courts and responsible adult behaviour. I'm appalled that there's support here for lying your way out of trouble. Is this what you tell your children? Don't worry son, if you're ever caught doing something wrong, just tell a few porkies. Good to know that integrity and honesty aren't dead.

Good to know that intelligent reasoned debate and respect for the other guy's point of view aren't dead either.

It was my brief report on my visit to the Bike Show, which I'd overlooked. Nice cheap shot Dave.

I really don't want to have to answer any more of the ill-considered juvenile drivel I've read here. It's the first time I've visited this forum, and it'll probably be the last. I'll leave you to play in peace. Tits and support for Power Rangers - I could get The Sun and MCN for those, but thankfully I've moved up to The Beano.

Regards, Mick

" --- I've moved up to The Beano "



http://www.artienne.co.uk/comixi5.jpg


That's wise move .

But be careful ,Dennis the Menace ,Minnie the Minx ,Roger the Dodger are all mischievous rule breakers !
Please don't follow their example .




You might end up behind bars :
http://www.startlicensing.co.uk/star.../the-beano.jpg

Unlike you Mick , I have never fallen foul of the law on two wheels .As a triple offender you should have more respect for the law and learnt your lesson the first time .[ "people in glasshouses should not throw stones !"]:nono:


The courts are not infallible , cases like this are often just showcases to help define a precedent .
It is a citizen's right to petition for change if he thinks the law is unjust.
If I was living in the UK ,I would be proud to sign the petition .

This is the HU bar [ no useful content required] ,if you make a bold statement designed to provoke comment , don't be surprised when other members take the bait .

Somehow you equate an offence against the road traffic act [ or whatever it is called these days ] with murder ,paedophilia and "instructucting our children to lie to the police ".
As a self confessed triple offender you have been hoisted by your own petard .

The bottom line of this story is not about condoning breaking the law or trying to wriggle out of the consequences should you be caught.

It is about being held responsible for the actions of others who may or may not be in your company while riding.
It is ridiculous that they are trying to do this when, (despite ASBO's etc) parents are not being held accountable for actions of underage children who transgress the law

Mick, I don't agree with your opinion, but that is the whole thing about opinions everyone has one and is entitled to have one and to voice it. I'm sure if we met up at a HUBB event we'd have great craic despite difference's of opinions.

I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to insult you here(quiet at the back), I think it is all a bit of harmless banter and I hope you do chose to come back into this forum again. I think that if you read through the whole thread again that you will see it very closely resembles the sort of conversation that would go on in any Bar.

Well said that man:thumbup1:

If you are riding in a big group the 'tail enders' usually have to ride faster anyway to keep up, its known as the elastic band effect.

:nono:

I'm the original poster of this topic. Apologies for not replying sooner.

If you get pulled for excessive speed then fair enough, you can't really complain but thats not the point being discussed here. Think about it, most bikes can accellerate from stand still up to any permitted speed limit without even trying. Nothing wrong with that, it's called making progress. Does that mean you're responsible for the actions of some daft Kevin in his Halfords Special, thinking you were looking for a race?

For your information, the content and link in the original post was sent to me and a few hundred others by a recently retired motorcycle traffic cop with the backing of his previous employer.

Why???

Because it's daft, plain and simple. If you let the likes of Brunstrom get there way, motorcycles will be banned and there's more than a few Chief Constables and more worryingly, politicians that listen to and even share his crackpot ideas.

The wrong fight
 

I already knew about this, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear there were many who didn't. We know ignorance of the law is no defence, but does that also apply to the laws of physics? If rider A is riding at or about the limit, blissfully ignorant that rider B is having to ride over the limit and rider C is thrashing it to death to keep up, is it right that A should suffer the same penalty as C? Surely C (and B) should simply drop back and catch up when A notices and slows down for them?

When do we become a group? What happens if I am riding at the limit and a friend sees and recognises me, and exceeds the limit in order to catch me? Should I then suffer the same penalty as the guy trying to catch me even if I wasn't aware he was doing so (or even that he was there if he was a way behind)? What about me riding along on my lonesome ownsome and a complete stranger tags along for company without me realising he is riding "with me"?

Sorry Mick. It is one thing to justify speed limits and to point out that penalties may be avoided by obeying the law, but this case is a long way beyond that. This is making people suffer harsher penalties than they might otherwise have done because of what someone else has done. This case is wrong and I think you have picked the wrong fight.

Having held a licence over 30 years I have been caught speeding four times. That is a hell of a lot of undetected crime, but what was detected was my crime. If I were to be fined for someone else's offence (even though one could argue it was karma for what I've got away with over the years) I would be seriously dischuffed.

It seems clear that some posters to this thread think it's as simple case of someone trying to get out of a speeding fine. If you'd read the OP article, you'll see it's not. Here's the original article on MCN.

Summary: Front rider in a group gets done doing 85mph (sees it as a fair cop) in a 60 zone gets screwed because one rider in the back was doing 103mph for whatever reason. The court hit the front rider with the 103mph fine, claiming it was his fault that the chap at the back was speeding.

If you think that's a fair call by the courts, I want some of the powerful drugs you're on.