Shitty behaviour abroad?
 

I find it amazing how people are willing to commit fraud, eg: selling bike and reporting it stolen; ignore laws (insurance?) and generally disrespect the country (ies) in which they are guests, yet if someone did that in their own countries they would be horrified. And it only makes life harder for the next traveller going through. I have been refused a room because the last bike traveller had gone off with the towels.

There is a guy from the forum going around Argentina and Brasil with an "offensively" loud exhaust pipe and he even gets a "like":(

Its not that the locals don't give a shit its that most of the time they are too polite to say something.

?c?

Not just abroad.
 

Some take towels to put under their tank bag. Some even leave the old towel behind at the next hotel to take a fresh one.

Some take 'souvenirs' from hotels.

Some view the 'high cost' of a hotel as an invitation to take something.

They do this in their own country too.

True, some never learn that we are ambassadors for our little niche of travelers on bikes. I've seen bad behavior for decades and my fellow countrymen can be some of the worst offenders. (USA)

In Mexico, especially Baja, the rich Buggy and Monster truck racers think Mexico belongs to them because they drop a lot of coin while they are there. No rules for them. Sure, it helps their economy but that's no cause to be RUDE and disrespectful.

Some think USA is doing Mexicans a favor by letting so many millions work illegally in our country ... so have the attitude "They owe us". You can see where this is going. Not pretty. But there is hope.

Not ALL racers or tourists are like this ... many do good deeds South of the border setting up all manor of charity organizations. Millions are donated in Baja alone.

A retired Doctor/riding buddy helps to run a clinic, brings free eye glasses, even copped a unused Mamogram machine. (this is a BIG deal)

He's treated like a Saint, everyone knows him. He's Danish, not American. doh Oddly, his Spanish sucks and I have to translate for him ... yet he speaks 4 other languages perfectly! (Danish, Swedish, German, English)

That bit about ruining it for the next rider through is SO TRUE. I've been victim of this myself, I'm sure many others have as well. One bad reaction can color your whole experience in that country or region. So BE NICE, DON'T CHEAT or STEAL or disrespect ... think of the next guy coming through after you!

Having a bit of language can smooth ruffled feathers.
Sadly, seems to be folks who speak none can have (or cause) problems. I've witnessed this many times. Typically they think the locals are cheating them ... but often it's just lack of communication. Can create bad blood that carries over to the next poor bastard riding through. :thumbdown:

Not that Gringos (any foreigner) don't get cheated ... it happens ... but fairly rare in my experience over last 40 years. Communication is key.

When in doubt try to get a bi-lingual person to help translate, work out the issue. This is good practice at borders, hotels, Shops, embassies (English spoken at most).

Worth it to PAY a Helper in this situation. I did this in Thailand and worked out GREAT. (bike rental deal), cost me $4. :D

When in Malaysia , doing a bike purchase the agreements went all over the place, even after the money changed hands, which at that time I just ignored it.
Later when I mentioned this to my brother in law , he just said "This is Malaysia", n so it was , whenever similar occurances came up ,we would just say "This is Malaysia", my wife is an chinese -malaysian come American now.
People just do things different in other places.?

This has come up before in various guises, from using forged and photo-shopped documents to this kind of stuff and also hooky insurance.

Some travelers seem to think it's mighty smart to be able to get a way with it.

IMHO it is not completely dissociated from the "throwing money around types" who think they are better than the indigenous population because they hold a certain passport or have money.

I believe it explains, along with natural envy, why foreigners are often despised and also targeted for robbery in some countries.

To a limited extent, some of it is unavoidable e.g. if you are hustled for a bribe at a border by the border guard, you gotta pay it if you want to get in. But acting like honesty is only for when one is at home and like it's one-up-man-ship to get away with breaking laws that apply often for very good reasons e.g. insurance, vehicle reggo, carnets, is extremely disrespectful and arrogant.

Understand your POV here but I see significant differences between disrespecting individuals vs. circumventing arcane, randomly enforced regs forced upon the public by greedy corporations or corrupt govt. agencies or Tin Pot officials.

Often times we are simply doing what locals do in every instance. Fiddling the system a bit is what is done in many places ... and they'd call you a fool if you didn't do it. It's expected. I'm sure you've seen this.

It's not disrespecting individual people ... just the system itself ... which is often USURY. (insurance companies especially)

I'd sooner slip a fiver to the underpaid migra official to allow me through ... and see him smile than be forced to plow through mountains of paperwork that makes no sense ... and then PAY for that privilege. doh
Yes, it's unfair to the poor who can't possibly pay. But they have to start their revolution, not me.

We can't change the system, just have to operate practically and fairly within it. Yes, it perpetuates corruption ... but sometimes there are no other options.

My respect goes out ONE ON ONE to real people face to face, not institutions.

Be kind, share and smile.:D Karma!

Laws are fantastic until they are applied to you or your family members, then watch the hypocrisy start. Usually applies to middle class families in my experience.
Agree with mollydog, sometimes you just have to pay that fee and if you are white then it's going to cost, as we can afford it..... Apparently. If you suffer righteous indignation over this then don't travel :ban:

No righteous indignation here; if you want to be dishonest, that's your look out.

Justify it any way you like but you aren't fooling anyone except yourself.

There's a difference between (some of) what you describe and reporting a bike stolen and then selling it for parts, whether or not the buyer was in on it.

I'm surprised by the number of people who think this is OK (or not, actually).

Look it's easy to target someone and then stereo type, if a well to do person stops at a hotel and takes something from a room they are not going to say lets just not have well to do people stopping here, but if one person on a bike or motorbike takes something they have a target, that makes it easy for them, I've stayed in some nice places where the owners have thought of not letting me stay because I rode up on a bike and I look bad dirty and mean, after a wash and a change of clothes they didn't know I was the guy on the bike.
I've also found that if you ask you sometimes get or maybe a few euros helps,

Docsherlock, I think your comment just about nailed it :thumbup1:

There is moral ambiguity in both the world and this thread.

But the moral ambiguity is particularly prevalent within secular societies.
?c??c??c??c?

I guess everyone just lives the way they feel comfortable with themselves. I personally don't dig fraud or theft or hooky documents however it is dressed up and it definitely affects others going forwards.

Insurance scams (and bike theft) for bikes a bit uncommon here in USA, maybe more prevalent in UK? I'm not a fan in insurance companies (a rant for another thread) but would never do as you suggest or condone it ... and guys I ride with wouldn't either.

But I don't have a problem selling off MY bike in a foreign country ... even though it may be against local rules. It's the buyers problem to get it registered and legal. If the govt. misses out on usury fees ... my heart bleeds.
That's what happens when you charge 400% duty on imports. doh

In US, insurance scams drive up costs for everyone, giving fodder for companies to jack rates even higher. Poor things. :innocent:

High duty rates are usually due to non-existent taxation from other sources such as income or land.

Just because YOU see it as unfair does not make it so. So effectively you are stealing from the government.

If the "the government is corrupt, so I can be dishonest" line works for you that's your lookout. What you are in fact doing is depriving a poor government of money it is due under the laws it has created. This impacts the people of the country in which you and others travel by, for example, making less money available for medical care, roads, defense, pensions and so on. You will no doubt argue that it is a small amount of money so it doesn't matter, but if everyone took that stance what would happen?

Would you dodge tax in your own country? If not, don't do it abroad. It really is that simple.

Some might view such an attitude as some have expressed thus far as somewhat colonial and/or arrogant.

Those are good points and shows the moral dilemma and possible hypocrisy we can be backed into.

Just my opinion but I feel 400% tax is unfair ... to everyone. And it's the locals who will be the first to find work-a-rounds to overcome such overzealous revenue enhancement ... legal or not.
bier

the basics
 

One: the individual income tax for U S citizens is illegal and has been proven so in every court from city, county, state, federal and the supreme court. But, every legal employer requires employees to sign a W-4 form that is is the employees voluntary agreement to pay taxes to the state and federal government as required.

OK, so if you cheat or neglect to pay taxes you are violating an agreement you made in order to have legal employment.

Two: The TVIP temporary vehicle import permit issued when you (a tourist) enter your vehicle/ motorcycle into a foreign country clearly states that you voluntarily agree not to sell your vehicle/motorcycle in that country. So, if the vehicle/motorcycle was sold by a tourist having signed a TVIP in country, that makes the purchaser in possession of a vehicle/motorcycle and although the new owner might buy insurance, the insurance will not pay damages because in the fine print of all insurance policies it is clearly stated that the insurance only covers legally licensed /drivers/riders of vehicles/motorcycles legally operating. If the motorcycles title changes hands illegally, from that point whatever insurance is purchased WILL NOT PAY DAMAGES. And yes, the very first thing insurance agencies do before paying personal injury or property damage claims is investigate the transfer of title etc of the vehicle/motorcycle.

I worked for the international Red Cross Cruz Roja in Mexico for three years visiting tourists in Mexican jails mostly in jail due to not operating vehicles/motorcycles legally in Mexico and having had accidents involving personal injury or extensive property damage. Many - the majority thought they had a valid Mexican insurance policy, but the insurance agency discovered an illegality in the title or in the drivers permit and refused to pay bail and damages.

The back log on - the docket - in many foreign countries is years , not months - and that is just to make an appearance before a judge, - and with invalid insurance you stay in jail until the accident case is resolved whether you are at fault or not.

So, while in the States, the IRS enforces tax collection the fact that insurance companies will not pay if the "insured" vehicle/motorcycle is discovered to have been illegally purchased or the driver/rider does not have the required driving permit enforces the agreement not to sell vehicles/motorcycles after being entered into a country on a TVIP.

Three: FYI - there is no "no mans land" between borders where vehicle can be transferred, this is a scam created by those wanting to assure new buyers that the title transfer is legal if done in "no man's land" between borders. Countries borders are adjacent.

xfiltrate eat, drink and know the facts.

One negative aspect of the Hubb I have noticed over the years is there can be a tendency for some members to get "high and mighty." It is easy to start projecting your view of traveling as the only right way to do it.

I think 99.9% of the members on here are not stealing towels from hotel rooms.

Note: I find it much more interesting to read a ride report about a 23 year old French guy working in China who illegally purchased a DR350, had a fake Chinese drivers license made up, and rode all the way back to France, than I do to read about a guy on an R1200gs who stayed in $200 hotel rooms every night.

If, I get a flat on the side of the road. I will put my money on the French guy stopping to help me versus the R1200gs guy who paid all the "proper" fees in every country.

It is easy to be petty.

There's a whole argument to be made about sitting on the moral high ground and throwing stones into the mire below but it was the bit about stealing towels I really wanted to comment on. Talking to people I know who work in hotels they say that quite a few towels and other items are kept as "souvenirs" and it's a particular problem in the more upmarket establishments where towels etc are personalised with the hotel's name. Many people don't see it as theft, just one step up from taking the little shampoo bottles / soap. Likewise people wandering around the gardens taking cuttings from plants don't see they're doing anything wrong.

A month or so ago I stayed in a somewhat "humble" chain hotel in Rapid City, South Dakota where there was a framed notice on the check-in desk telling you in advance how much you'd be charged for missing items - towels were $10 from memory, but also on the list were hair dryer, iron, chair, TV, bed and furniture. Quite how you'd get a double bed or a desk out past reception and into your pick-up I'm not quite sure but at least you'd know from the list how much your card would be debited when they found out. Whether that counts as theft or just "advance purchase" again I'm not quite sure but at least you'd know where the line was.

:thumbup1:
I've been passed by guys on GS's many times when pulled over, broke down or had a flat. Not so much as a wave.

Who stopped for us ?? Wait for it ... Harley guys! :D

Scams endemic in the UK
 

Try this:
Fraudulent whiplash claims total £1bn a year - Telegraph

Within the UK, there have been instances - by which I mean these cases have been tried and found guilty in a court - of whole communities involved in insurance scams, including the local garages, break down truck company and hire of replacement vehicles IIRC. Such scams very often bring in friends, neighbours, and other forms of associates with an attendant "mafiosi" code of "honour" (among thieves).
Some folks have been so busy with such activity that they don't have time to hold down a full time job, so they also claim for social benefits.

................. and that is just the ones we know about, who were found out.

Two things i dislike, liars and thieves. And they can,t be trusted.:(

slightly different angle, but I really seriously object to people going to another country and treating it as their own personal rally raid. It's a big problem in Morocco and could ultimately lead to tings like bans to vehicles using anything but established tracks. I t does seem to be a problem encountered more with people from some countries than others.

Vandalism of important sites and littering is just another.

I read an account somewhere, can't remember where now, of someone taking a group to task for littering in a culturally important and sensitive area of the desert, the response 'why should we care, we aren't going to be coming here again'

Some people seem to have no consideration or interest in the consequences of their actions on those that follow, whether it's paying overly large bribes, throwing sweets to the kids, speeding or littering, just no thought beyond their own little bubble of enjoyment.

I've just remembered a specific case I had in mind; ain't the internet a wonderful thing!
'Cash-for-crash' scam in Durham 'put car insurance up by £100' - BBC News

Now there's a question, whether many of the people I've encountered in other countries over the years( anyone been to Rosso recently!) who seem to fall into those categories are just the usual low lifes who gather around borders, bus and train stations, hotels etc on the lookout for opportunistic encounters or whether they're normal citizens of a society that has different standards / rules from those we here live by.

For example, are "border helpers" just free enterprise in action or quasi criminal? Just because I've never had to pay a local to get me across the border into France or into the US doesn't mean they don't serve a legitimate purpose and are at least tolerated on other borders - or does it? Trip reports here are riddled with stories of encounters with "fixers", some of which have been welcomed and others not, some of which have gone well and others where it's been costly or worse. For some they're just exploitative chancers and for others they're a low cost short cut through time consuming bureaucracy.

If we visit a country and then behave in ways that are normal by their standards but unacceptable by ours what, if anything, are we guilty of? Does "when in Rome etc" apply or should we continue to maintain what to us would be some kind of higher standard. A small example - many years ago I travelled from Dakar - Bamako by train, a trip that took 36hrs. During that time most, if not all, of my fellow travellers took to throwing their food leftovers out the train windows and on talking to some of them was told that this was normal practice, what everyone does. That wouldn't really be acceptable on the Chiltern Line into London. So, should I have thrown my scraps like everyone else or would that be the slippery slope to moral decline?

There's no doubt that criminal behaviour is beyond the pale but in many countries exactly what is criminal is open to a degree of interpretation - an accusation of speeding (or half a dozen other things) that magically vanishes when €20 is found in the back of a passport for example. Was I guilty of an offence or a victim of exploitation? Moral codes vary across the planet so I suppose it's not surprising that not everyone plays by the rules you (=we) were brought up with. Even within societies people have different priorities so I suppose it's equally not surprising that you'll meet people who behave in ways you wouldn't. Exactly how much to adapt (and whether it's possible / desirable to do so) and who we trust are decisions each of us makes when we travel and we take the consequences of our conclusions.

Ambiguity
 

No issues with the second case.
I have come to accept that lying is a rather natural trait of humans - who knows if other forms of animals manage to lie to their kind by means of other than speech?
Lying occurs in every form of human activity has been my thought for quite some time, so it then tends to come down to what is their motivation for that lie -- basically there are white lies and there are other forms.


I am one of them "when in Rome do as the Romans do" when living in various countries.
That is pragmatism; to attempt to do otherwise develops into really hard work to the point that one can lose the will to live (there) on some occasions.

Simply passing through a place for a few days may be a different matter - as per your example the mindset of "Im not coming back this way" can prevail.

Border helpers serve a purpose ... and as you've noted; there are good ones and bad.

Some borders don't require them, but some cases it's worth it ... especially if you're in a hurry. The "helpers" barge in que's and get away with it. Some are crooks, some just trying to survive. I'm not good at barging ques so I let them do it! :mchappy:

Throwing garbage is common and acceptable in many countries and is revolting to most westerners. If you'd spoken local language, ASKED locals about this you may have heard some interesting answers. I know I was surprised when I asked about it.

Locals told me time after time that street sweepers and track walkers are hired to pick up garbage ... and they do it all day long. Around stations, cities, tracks.

Rationale being: if they didn't throw garbage these folk would be out of a job!doh My retort was "why not just use proper refuse containers".

Answer: Look at the one in the train! (typically full of shite (diapers) to overflowing and unattended) Can't argue with that one. (been there, seen it)

I do know in Mexico (after 40 years of ad campaigns) we finally see a small change in random tossing garbage mentality. Still a LONG way to go but BETTER! Cities now have MORE trash barrels and most actually have room for trash and are emptied in a timely fashion. :thumbup1: (biggest problem is merchants using them for their debris ... which is illegal)

The bogus speeding thing is good example ...something that does not happen much in "1st world" countries. Cops may lie (and murder) but usually can't be bothered to pull you and say you were speeding ... (unless you're black or brown of course ...).

In some cases tourists are targeted specifically. (IE: Northern Argentina, Lima, Turkey and elsewhere). When with UNICEF in Ghana some Moto cop tried to pull over the new Land Rover and our driver just ignored him ... and drove on, giving him some sort of indecipherable hand signal out the window, cop finally backed off. We had a CIA guy in the car with us some other "unknown" players.
:innocent:

:D
Great comment! These are the essential questions we must ask ourselves as travelers. When I lived in Guatemala (3 years off/on) I saw despicable actions by foreign residents who exploited their elevated position time and again for personal advantage. Total disdain for the "rules". ... and of course they had pages of rationale as to why it was "OK" for them. Almost believable. :oops2:

I really think this goes far beyond stealing towels from hotels. and this is not just Overlander travellers it is every one.

We are the on ground ambassadors, we are the one that prove despite how stupid, evil and corrupt our governments are we are just people, just like our hosts.

Remember stealing towels raises the cost for the next guy (they gotta replace em somehow).

The reason for the 400% import tariffs was IN RESPONSE TO ILLEGAL IMPORTS not cus the government is (necessarily) corrupt. No it does not make sense but this is the government we are talking about. Every one that does any dodgy deal like that is the cause of the high Carnet fees. doh

Other S#ity behaviors that I have seen first hand include,

A bike tour group tearing around the Plane of Jars in Laos (only >5000 year old stone structures) ripping the ground to shreds and scarring the few tourist that are there. The rangers were in tears as they had no power to do anything. When I said something my life was threatened.. There was 15 guys vrs me. They did not stop.

A @#$%$# emptying his oil in to the storm drains next to a beach in Australia.. I held them there till the cops came. $10,000 fine, van confiscated and trip over and BANNED from Australia for life. (So worth the 5 minute trip to the local parts shop who as a rule will take it for FREE)

Bunch of french backpacker ripping the wires out of a tourist info bay to charge their iphones!!! (Jail time I believe, fines and banned). (Rural Australia):stormy:

These two Australia examples have resulted in the tourist bay being shut down (it was free camping with loos/showers) and that beach parking going from free to paid and closed at sunset.. No more enjoying the sunset there.

France some @#$% decided to touch a 20k year old cave painting and destroyed it (all hell broke lose; I dont know what happened but I know I was one of the last people to see it "intact". -- not a good thing)

Even the "lovely gesture" of giving sweats or any gifts to kids in small villages although completely well-intentioned it has had the effect of you cant move in some spots with out being chased by toothless kids yelling "sweeetttty, sweeetttty, sweeetttty, sweeetttty" or "cadeau, cadeau, cadeau, cadeau". Bad for them bad for us.


Newton's law here guys... every action has an equal and opposite reaction

Maybe not opposite, but if you treat your hosts (be it a country or individual people) with honour, honestly, kindness and respect, YOU and the NEXT TRAVELLER will be treated with honour, honestly, kindness and respect . Your actions have repercussion for others. Think about others (both your hosts and your fellow travelers) before you do everything.

Okay off high horse:blushing:

There would appear to be more than a few HUBB members who feel that varying degrees of dishonesty are acceptable; I don't know about towels, but I seem to read of theft, fraud and hooky documentation with recommendations about how to do it quite regularly.

I'm not sure generalizing about riders of particular marques is helpful; what you have written sounds like inverted snobbery or class envy (also quite prevalent on this site from time to time) and it has driven away at least one very interesting contributor who just plain got cheesed off with it.

I think Grant & Susan rode a BMW, Tiffany Coates rides one and also a number of other folk who would probably help a stranded rider. Have I made my point yet?

Gotta agree with docksherlock, I've been riding for >30 years on a number of different marques. Today it happens to be a GSA. I've had roadside help on a number of occasions and in return I've given it. It's not about the bike it's about the mentality of the person riding it, If a GS(A) rides on past you then please assume that the rider is a jerk, not ALL GS(A) riders.....

Certainly not all jerks. I ride with several BMW GS guys, have done over 20 years. Part of why some riders won't stop to help is they see two or three riders already pulled over and figure broke down bike/rider has plenty of help. Fair enough.

But on rare occasion I've been passed when solo. Usually I wasn't broke down and never waved the rider over and didn't have helmet on side of road (universal sign for help), so I'll cut slack there. But must say, we've had more Harley guys stop than any other brand. No idea why.

Problem sometimes happens with big groups of bikes ... BMW or any brand. They're in their own world, don't always stop to help others because they want keep up with the ride. (I've done this)

I would avoid over-analyzing all this ... everyone's perceptions are different, usually subjective, not based on fact. When it really counts ALL riders help.
(like at crash site ... I've been on scene at dozens :( )

I see it on other sites as well, I'm on a Toyota Hilux site and some of the guys with older trucks give the newer trucks flak. I don't understand it, it doesn't happen the other way round. If you have a nice shiny new motor you wouldn't take the piss out of someone with an older one. Maybe it's envy, maybe inverted snobbery, maybe it's parochialism, maybe they're just cocks, who knows!

I thought I had heard it all, but 'inverted snobbery' was good for a few chuckles. I have owned 3 gsa's and am perfectly fine with the stereotype because it is true a lot of the time. There will always be exceptions. There are plenty of good people who ride R1200's. They are the type of people who would never think about terms like 'class envy' or 'inverted snobbery.':Beach:

An observation
 

At the Hubb Pub, more often than not, the topic does not seem to matter as much as the chronic emotional state of those who post. We have the enthusiastic and the serene, we have the bored and we have the antagonistic. We have those in grief over some emotional or physical loss and we have the apathetic, who once and a while get it together enough to scribble a few lines.

As I roam the various posts of certain individuals - no matter if the topic is BMWs, border crossings or routes, some hubbers exhibit the same emotion over and over and over again. The antagonistic ones keep antagonizing, the bored ones, when able to post emit boredom, and hostile ones continue their hostility.

How about this for an idea, each one reviews a random sample of his/her posts and determines if there is a chronic or prevailing emotion being exhibited more often than not, and in the very next post try to respond without that emotion. Try to leave your chronic state behind and deal with the issue as honestly as possible.

Just an idea.

xfiltrate

Why do preachers always have the craziest children? Diversity is what makes life great in my opinion. The world is full of different characters. If it was not, it would probably be a pretty boring place. Take a guy who moves down to Argentina because he seeks a life with less corruption and dishonesty.:Beach:

Shitty behaviour on board?
 

I find it amazing how people are filling this thread with an almost harsh debate that by now have 3 pages and 35 post when the OP only have wrote ones and just to provoke other forum member for personal concerns.

On same regards I wonder myself who is this guy who as a newbie here on the HUBB (registered Oct 2015) believes to have rights for judges others when he keeps as much anonymous he believes he can, without introduce himself as a “polite” way of begin a relationship with others members here..

However Javier, that original poster could have come to that conclusion just by reading the posts on this or most other forums. Equally possible is he is an experienced traveller who had just found the HUBB and joined up.
If you have a look at all of his posts there is enough evidence of enough traveling to be able to have a valid opinion

It can happen anywhere apparently
 

Post number 4 in the link indicates some sh1tty behaviour within the HUBB.
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...391#post522117

Also is possible that he is an experienced troll who have/had multiple personalities (or member nicknames), alternating posting few useful information with violent and offensive provocations and had been multiple times banned here for have a shitty behaviour with many HU members by other posts and many nasties private messages.
Maybe it’s me who is paranoid and see waterfoxes where is dry….

What bad behavior are you seeing? Because someone emailed seller saying they thought price was too high? I don't see anything unusual there.

The seller may not be happy but that's all part of the selling/buying game, yes?
But he should keep those exchanges to himself ... it makes him look like an ass. :(

(PS: I DO see sellers point, as that KTM looks like a GOOD deal to me! But scroungers are everywhere, bottom feeding)

What's NOT being said is how does title transfer take place ... ????
and THAT gets back to some of the issues we've been discussing here.

Should buyer pay Argentine govt. HALF the value of the bike in import duties, then wait 6 months to buy bike "legally"? doh

Perhaps best not to discuss "methods", someone may call the Aduana police on you! :rofl: SHAME ON YOU bad foreigners! :rofl:

bier

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Perhaps, but no evidence seen in 35 posts, so regardless of whether true or not, perhaps your concerns might better be directed to the forum owners than aired on open forum.

The moral maze continues
 

See post number 5 in that for sale thread.
There was no asking price declared up to the post number 4.

There is "anger" in the thread - the seller's word, not mine (refer back to Xfiltrate's perceptive post above).


The last time I looked Argentina is still a sovereign government that has a right to set it's own laws.
It remains a case of "when in Rome, etc etc".

Anger? He spoke about an email he received that was angry ... not that HE was angry.

No one has seen said emails ... nothing going on at all, just a bit of frustration far as I can see.

How does one accurately evaluate and analyze their own writing objectively?
Maybe you could do it for us? What's your hourly rate Doc? beer

"respond without that emotion"? News Flash! This is a moto travel discussion forum where all sorts of opinions and EMOTIONS are presented ... and I thought welcomed (maybe I'm wrong on that? :innocent: ) ... it's these elements that makes things interesting. (some emotion ... not over the top)

Without some emotion and strong opinions there would be no interest raised thus no participation. DEAD.

HUBB is already dying a slow death, one reason is because so many things are Banned from discussion ... as if riders won't encounter extremely controversial political situations crossing through regions engulfed in civil war (Oh, but don't bring it up here ... never mention history!) :( ... or have seen UNSPEAKABLE things in person (Oh, but don't mention it here ... might OFFEND someone!)
... are you suggesting even further emasculation of the forum? I did hear they were looking for a new moderator... applying for the job? :rofl:

Well presented, reasonable opinion does not mean attacking others, using cheap-shot innuendo or rumor mongering hyperbole. Emotion is good if well expressed (within reason). Makes for good reading and discussion. Who knows, we might learn something. Isn't that why you're here? ... and PS ... don't forget HUMOR! God knows we need more of it!

If someone goes on too much of a rant ... most readers TUNE OUT. Start banning every little rant or opinion and what've ya got? I say let it all play out.

"Chronic state"? What are you trying to say here Doctor? :smartass:

Another wake up call: honesty only goes so far on an on line forum.
How deep you wanna go here? :blushing:

This thread is about bad behavior on the road. We've all seen it, been guilty of it or know about it ... or bailed Aussies out of jail because of it! :rofl:
(and that last bit is the honest truth!)

bier

:thumbup1: Good to have alternative views! Travelling without them would loose some of its appeal.

Yes. I look at it this way ... where would 'we' put Americans if there was no USA. Or Russians, French, Ozies etc....

'We' all have our own places ...
Having said that ... there is a large difference between what 'we' perceive people of a certain nationality to be compared to what actually exists there. Having been to Russia in the communist era and seen my preconceptions fall apart, I think you, ex-xt, can safely go to the usa :scooter:

Is there any equivalent using French?
(I have a number of friends resident there but none of them ride, other than pedal cycles).

One guy wants to sell a bike on a sub-forum that is devoted to that very process.
Another guy shows an amount of interest in buying it.

................. read the thread to see what happens next.

As I thought.
The HUBB has a certain Je ne sais quoi,non?
:innocent:

xfiltrate responds to mollydog
 

""respond without that emotion"? News Flash! This is a moto travel discussion forum where all sorts of opinions and EMOTIONS are presented ... and I thought welcomed (maybe I'm wrong on that? ) ... it's these elements that makes things interesting. (some emotion ... not over the top)" by mollydog....

Mollydog, I never said or even insinuated that anyone should respond without emotion, please revisit my post that you so disagree with and discover that it is only the display of the chronic emotion that I am opposed.

For example, all I have to do is realize who is posting, and for those of who I was speaking - not you mollydog, by the way, I can tell you the emotional state that will be displayed in the post - without even reading the post. You see some people are just stuck in being antagonistic, some stuck in boredom some are chronically angry, some happy or enthusiastic , some interested in others and some just apathetic....... etc etc etc, to make the HUBB more interesting I am suggesting people post in a variety of emotions as opposed to the same emotional response every time over and over and over again.

And, I have an idea that those who are continually antagonistic or some other absolutely inappropriate for the situation emotion like hostility or anger - when there are many other emotions available to them that can be displayed on the HUBB, probably display that chronic emotion when visiting foreign countries and, if their chronic emotional state is anger, antagonism, hostility, this is how they will treat foreigners they meet during their over landing. OK?

This is not to say that there are not appropriate situations that do call for an angry response, but these are few and far between and seldom necessary in the HUBB PUB. Only those who are chronically in negative emotions themselves enjoy reading posts by others who are also hanging out in the negative emotions.

We are now entering an area that might explain why some people act so poorly when visiting foreign countries.... let's go deeper....

xfiltrate says eat , drink and come visit us on the west coast of Mexico. rosa del desierto is here too!

- PM me if interested in a dos xx "beer" on us and a little surf fishing....

xfiltrate - this is quite an insightful post IMHO and could be extended to incorporate many aspects of interaction on these fora....not just poor behavior abroad.....

Ok, now your post makes more sense! :thumbup1:
Hey, thanks for the invite!

bier

emotions
 

This thread seems to be gaining some notoriety - good. Motorcyclists from Turkey to Tucson and beyond post on the HUBB and in IMHO (in my humble opinion) 90% or more of the posts are respectful and many even express admiration for others, their travels, or their observations. There are far more likes than dislikes.

Perhaps 8% of the posts are a bit unmannerly - and these are generally written in response to the less than 2% that seem to be fighting some old battle, suffering from some old loss, drunk or stoned, etc. Resolving old pain whether it be emotional or physical is a great start to being polite.

Based on my observations of thousands of encounters with those visiting or residing in a country other than their own, the above percentages seem to equally apply to those who exhibit, "shitty behavior abroad."

Now, the question becomes "why do some people remain stuck in a negative emotion that colors all that they observe and communicate?" It might well be they are actually stuck in some past incident, maybe even stuck in a past life incident (but I will not go there here). Seeing that past time and place and feeling the pain of that past time and place....Viewing the world while in a negative emotional state, because you are stuck in some past painful incident will bias your observations.

Of course, there exist, and I have met many, people who are stuck in a happy euphoria that has less to do with reality than the substances they consume, or they are like the Delhai Lama - truly enlightened. Does he always seem to be smiling to you to0?

A possible solution that might prevent "shitty behavior abroad" or posts in poor tastes seems to be only exhibiting appropriate emotional responses to each and every situation situation, whether it be behavior abroad or posting here.

Appropriate emotional responses might be very different cross culturally and what appears appropriate to a good ol cowboy from Arizona may be very offensive to a good ol gaucho on the Papas. Cross cultural misunderstanding probably explains the majority of "shitty behaviors abroad," excluding those jeiger drunk on their butts, etc.

Of couse the solution to jeiger is to drink less. The solution to understanding other cultures visited is more complicated. First, know that good manners are universal, and even if your manners are not the same as "their" manners most people generally understand when someone is trying their best not to offend.

And, second learn as much as you can as quickly as you can about each country and the people you visit.

Other opinions very welcome,

eat, Drink, but not too much, and be polite

xfiltrate

A request
 

[QUOTE=ex-xt;522574]TO be clearer ; often westerners with high standard of leaving at a level of direction , with a few knowledge of whatever ever-is-not-useful ( for them ; philosophy, anthropology, any thing in -y oh yes hard science too :rain: ) : in my area which is little , mostly middle north of UE.
Point two in a forum we need a minimum of contradiction . Socrate said so.
It is my point .

xfiltrate's reply to ex-xt:

ex-xt, I apologize, but I am just not getting your point. I have read your post many times and trying my best but to no avail.

Could you possibly be a little clearer beginning with the sentence that begins "TO be clearer" quoted above....

thanks

xfiltrate

Suggestion for ex-xt from xfiltrate
 

ex-xt
Upon not receiving a response to my request that you be a little clearer beginning with the sentence that begins "To be clearer"

I believe a little exercise specifically tailored for you might be helpful.

Please watch the video featuring
rosa del desierto and myself

Overland Fitness 2 video on You Tube:

https://youtu.be/ZhvN6ndNqbM

And, if you are still unclear please watch our other three Overland Fitness videos found here:

Overland Fitness Videos

These videos might be very helpful to you, especially Overland Fitness 2

Eat, Drink and be clearer

xfiltrate

wtf does that have to do with anything? "anglo-saxons" don't have the monopoly on having a fair share of assholes. USA is more than just "Anglo-Saxon" but if you find it so offensive then by all means ... don't visit.

Theres no excuse for things like stealing towels, but I can say that some places on this Earth are just not set up to play by the rules . . . as in impossible to play by the rules . . . you wouldn't even be able to do it if you wanted to and tried to.

OK ok I try to be clear ( not easy and surely my english is not good enough ) .

point 1( Gr ) no harm against any kind of people . If this forum is very anglo saxon it is because a lot af travellers are . no other reason . Ant there are differences of culture with UEns , south americans, chinese, indians for what i know . some have understood :D

Point 2 (xfitrate ) (here is 2 in the morning and so I was sleeping before ! just a coincidence i am up now :oops2: )
Nice vids'
But i dont want to be too much affirmative about people of a type that are much more in this "case" than others kinds .
I am positive for paragliidng in Spain or touring in Australia for what I have seen not for the rest , precisions in PM if you want .

Any forum need good conttradictors and i like this one . For the moment .
from the book " tourists and travellers" :
" One is always the tourist of an other who feels a "traveller"
Eof in general

Merci, thank you for being you
 

ex-xt,

Merci, you have clarified your position to me and without empirical evidence at hand I agree with you. Here, I have dealt in generalities - and perhaps it takes a Frenchman like you to keep it real. Thank you for your observations and your kind words about our Overland Fitness videos.

Eat, Drink and listen to the French, they are the true diplomats of a cruel world

xfiltrate

In short some people are wanxxrs, colour, creed or nationality makes no difference, I am of the opinion that thirty years of dealing with such people on a daily basis gives me the right tor make such a sweeping statement :innocent: people that have worked in public service may well agree with the above eg Spanishbiker ?c?
Fortunately now I am retired I get to tell them to fxxx off, which I can do in a number of languages, whose says travel doesn't broaden the mind :thumbup1:

^^^^ Nice one Chris.

this thread has indeed gone on for a while (nothing wrong in that)

But, I see it as, this (the original question - shitty behaviour)

Whenever I'm anywhere else (from home) be it in Spain, Italy, outside of Swindon.... I treat people how I'd like to be treated myself, which is, generally quite nice.

If I see someone acting like a cock, I'll usually just ignore them, and have nothing to do with them (unless I have to, but I don't usually live in those kind of circles)

'nuff said really. Ride/drive on! bier

only 26 years here, but agree with you whole heartedly!!
I have tried to find an excuse for some people, but I'm afraid the notion that everyone has something valuable to offer is just wrong, some people are just a waste of good oxygen!!

That really sums it up, been there.

It usually starts with a variation of "do you know who I am.........." it's down hill from there.

As someone once said to me "if you saw some bird sh#t on a hand rail what would you think of it" hadn't a clue what he was on about but the answer is of course "nothing apart from avoid it". That's what these people are bird sh#t on a hand rail

'do you know who I am?'
'Why, are you not sure?'

Is that you Ronnie Pickering? :rofl:

:thumbup1:

After 34 years in the Travel Industry, including 10 years 'repping' in Spain for both youth market and mainstream Tour Operators I couldn't agree with you more.