Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB
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Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB (https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/)
-   The HUBB PUB (https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/the-hubb-pub/)
-   -   Should Britain leave the E.U. ??? (https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/the-hubb-pub/should-britain-leave-e-u-85239)

Walkabout 5 Feb 2016 21:16
Corpus Juris
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkabout (Post 527703)
True, within the UK, one is innocent until proven guilty, although even this principle has been whittled away in some respects.

Under the Napoleonic code of justice it is necessary to prove your innocence, which is a reason why the continental decrees do not always fit well with UK law.

We live in interesting times.
Looking around the internet for more information about the aspect of UK versus continental law, I came upon this article.
2016 – 006 EU replacing English Common Law with repressive Corpus Juris | The Euro Probe

The law in the USA is broadly based on the same principles as the UK, unsurprisingly, being traced back to Magna Carta.

earlorange 6 Feb 2016 16:30
Should Britain leave the E.U. ???
 
Well 'if' the UK leaves the EU other states may follow.

Unfortunately, the scaremongering, lousy debates and lack of global vision is shockingly bad in the socialist element of politics.

Glad they're not in Government either as we (the electorate) wouldn't have been given the option if Labour were in office.


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Walkabout 6 Feb 2016 17:51
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlorange (Post 529429)
Well 'if' the UK leaves the EU other states may follow.
I have been pondering on that aspect recently; it's an interesting possibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by earlorange (Post 529429)
Unfortunately, the scaremongering, lousy debates and lack of global vision is shockingly bad in the socialist element of politics.

Glad they're not in Government either as we (the electorate) wouldn't have been given the option if Labour were in office.
Yes, many of the politicos show their true colours and it is not pretty.
A number of them struggle to pull together a coherent set of sentences - perhaps they are used to dealing in sound bites and not being challenged with the difficult questions?
I was quite impressed with Kate Hoey just the other day when she spoke up in a TV interview; she does seem to hold firm views that have not wavered even when a certain Mr Blair tried to pressure her all those years ago.

earlorange 6 Feb 2016 18:49
I'm hearing from other forums Kate Hoey is proving rather controversial, which isn't a bad thing.

The EU has changed far beyond its fundamental origin, and other EU countries are monitoring how the UK negotiations & referendum goes. I'd rather the UK be the EU bad boy than remain in the current status quo.

It maybe classed as a blueprint for others, or not..


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Plooking 6 Feb 2016 19:13
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlorange (Post 529429)
Well 'if' the UK leaves the EU other states may follow.
I even risk to say that if UK voters vote in favour of Brexit the whole thing falls apart and it spells the end of the European Union. It is, as a matter of fact, the reason why I would like the Brexit camp to win the referendum.

See how Poland is getting so cosy with Britain's government's positions. It's an indicator of what you said, earlorange. I don't doubt for a second that the other three Visegrad countries will follow suit if they feel the need to spell it openly instead of just reaping the fruits sewn by Poland without the need to do anything.

On another note, see how the new Portuguese PM blackmailed (news about this in a Spanish newspaper citing the director of the Centre for European Reform) the European Commission to accept the State Budget or else Portugal would veto the agreement between the EU and the UK. Does this show a strong, coese, union? Or, as predictable, does it show a disfunctional thing in which each constituent part is defending its objectives and goals?

earlorange 6 Feb 2016 19:42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plooking (Post 529449)
I even risk to say that if UK voters vote in favour of Brexit the whole thing falls apart and it spells the end of the European Union. It is, as a matter of fact, the reason why I would like the Brexit camp to win the referendum.

See how Poland is getting so cosy with Britain's government's positions. It's an indicator of what you said, earlorange. I don't doubt for a second that the other three Visegrad countries will follow suit if they feel the need to spell it openly instead of just reaping the fruits sewn by Poland without the need to do anything.

On another note, see how the new Portuguese PM blackmailed (news about this in a Spanish newspaper citing the director of the Centre for European Reform) the European Commission to accept the State Budget or else Portugal would veto the agreement between the EU and the UK. Does this show a strong, coese, union? Or, as predictable, does it show a disfunctional thing in which each constituent part is defending its objectives and goals?

Poland have 1 million of its citizens in the UK, they know compromise rather than being difficult will only be negative for them strategically.

There's not a chance in hell Cameron will get the approval of the other 27 leaders, it's a wish list & nothing else.

The fact that the EU is unelected & Merkel & Shultz appear to calling the shots shows how bad the EU has grown, the immigration crisis was imploded by St mother Merkel & even her own infrastructure & authorities are struggling & backlash is clear.

EU is only happy when it dictates to other countries, it shows its true colours when they know it needs serious reform & being told publicly.


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vinnie 6 Feb 2016 20:25
In a purely selfish way I love travelling across most of Europe without having to stop at borders.
In a mostly unselfish way I don't think we should have the complete freedom of all of the E.u. citizens to come here. We're pretty full.

earlorange 6 Feb 2016 20:33
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie (Post 529460)
In a purely selfish way I love travelling across most of Europe without having to stop at borders.

In a mostly unselfish way I don't think we should have the complete freedom of all of the E.u. citizens to come here. We're pretty full.

I agree in the selfish element, and Travelling & exploring through Europe is apart from certain current restrictions unlikely to change.

The U.K. Maybe an island but that tunnel is still being exploited by many, the underlying other issue is 'overstayers' who've no intention of returning.


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lowuk 6 Feb 2016 20:56
I travel from UK, through France, through Switzerland, to Italy. Which means I have to flash my passport at every border on the way. So what's the difference, on that, and several other routes.
The joke is that at present, in the EU, our own border is the only one interested in seeing a passport.

Plooking 6 Feb 2016 21:09
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlorange (Post 529451)
Poland have 1 million of its citizens in the UK, they know compromise rather than being difficult will only be negative for them strategically.
From what I've been reading in the press it goes beyond merely defending their citizens who live in the UK. Poland is activelly supporting several of the items which the British Government is trying to get being only one step short of saying that they want the same for themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by earlorange (Post 529451)
The fact that the EU is unelected & Merkel & Shultz appear to calling the shots shows how bad the EU has grown, the immigration crisis was imploded by St mother Merkel & even her own infrastructure & authorities are struggling & backlash is clear.
The reality of the German Chancellor being calling the shots (and I'm not a germanophobe, a germanophile if anything) is the reason why I question if the EU still exists other than as a rubber stamping organization. Many times I wonder if the EU is still real or if it already died but someone forgot to issue the death certificate.

ridetheworld 6 Feb 2016 21:13
Should Britain leave the E.U. ???
 
"The Germans"

"We're full!"

"Brick up the tunnel!"

I say, this thread has rather devolved into a Daily Mail headline generator.

earlorange 6 Feb 2016 21:40
The more educated forum users know full well to avoid anything DM focused.

The thread topic is being debated in many forums & some are much more intelligently contributed than some.


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Lonerider 7 Feb 2016 00:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plooking (Post 529468)
From what I've been reading in the press it goes beyond merely defending their citizens who live in the UK. Poland is activelly supporting several of the items which the British Government is trying to get being only one step short of saying that they want the same for themselves.
That might be true on some things but I had read somewhere that Poland doesn't want the UK to do the 4 years in country and earning money before you get any benefits, maybe because they are one of the biggest takers in the EU? They did however say they would back it if the UK put troops in to Poland to show a strength on its borders as part of NATO

Why anyone should be getting UK child benefit payments for kids not even in the UK is beyond me, it just makes a laughing stock of the system no wonder Cameron wants to get it changed

Wayne

Edit
Just found the article
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/glo...ng-nato-320648

Wayne

Walkabout 7 Feb 2016 07:15
Power without responsibility
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridetheworld (Post 529265)
Incidentally, maybe it's worth mentioning that while the EU is often blamed for loss of sovereignty, which is absurd but a different debate entirely, there is very little said of the forthcoming Transatlantic Free Trade and Investment Partnership, which basically gives corporations unprecedented powers over national governments, but of course when most of the U.K. press is controlled by the like of Murdoch, The Barclay brothers, Desmond and The Rothermears, et al, it's not hard to see why. If anyone wants to read more about it without trawling the web, George Monbiot writing for the Guardian, is about the only journalist I know of who has covered it.

Lastly, if the UK leaves the EU it will probably spell the end of the Union itself. That's a rather depressing and bleak future to consider on top of everything else. It's going to be interesting to see how they word the ballot paper, and how it's portrayed by the corporate media. Even though some sadistic part of me wants to vote to leave just to see it blow up in people's faces, I'll be voting to stay - just.
There is an interesting view within this short article.
Is the EU finished if the British leave? | EurActiv
Two key statements relate to the phrase "reasoned opinion" and the potential consequences of such reasoning + the aspect of power without responsibility for the ensuing consequences.
The latter argument does touch a nerve or two.

TTIP is indeed of concern if only because those negotiations are being conducted in secret.
The power without responsibility view is very powerful in itself when applied to the multi-national corporations that use up a nations' resources (education, transportation, "human resources" etc) and put nothing back - not even some taxes apparently.
The furore of the last few years about "Bankers" is a case study in itself.

Argubly, the multi-nationals are the epitome of the selfish gene mentioned in earlier posts, but if your outlook is based on globalisation then that is hardly a surprise.

*Touring Ted* 7 Feb 2016 07:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridetheworld (Post 529469)
"The Germans"

"We're full!"

"Brick up the tunnel!"

I say, this thread has rather devolved into a Daily Mail headline generator.
I must admit I have found some of the replies rather disturbing. Considering this is a traveller forum and generally populated full of open minded, well travelled friendly folk.


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