Do you have a short or a selective memory?


Cyprus bailout deal with EU closes bank and seizes large deposits



It was only three years ago the EU that, in what even Russian officials have repeatedly compared to Soviet-era expropriation, the EU appropriated Cyprus Bank deposits – anyone with over €100,000, under draconian terms aimed at preventing the Mediterranean country becoming the first country forced out of the single currency and a €100 limit was imposed on ATM withdrawals in Cyprus.

Quote from a Guardian article at the time:-

Alexandra Salmani, 32, moved to Cyprus eight months ago to escape the financial crisis in Greece. She said: "We came here to find a better life, and it's exactly the same thing as in Greece. Everywhere I go there's crisis – I'm telling all my friends that I'll go to Germany next. Someone has to learn to say no to Merkel. They saw a rich country, decided to take their money, and destroy them. They are not human."

You remainiacs are frightened of risk and cite it often as your chief motivation to remain; Cyprus was a tiny, tiny economy but consider that in addition to Greece Italy, Spain and Portugal are well on their way to financial collapse and you think because we are not in the Euro we will not be asked to save them and participate in the inevitable bail-out? Dream on...

EU Plots Europe-Wide Tax ID Numbers
 

The EU is laying the groundwork for centrally planned National Insurance numbers for every taxpayer in Europe. The proposal was passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last night, and chillingly calls for a ‘European Taxpayer Identification Number’ to keep track of every EU citizen. This is the European Commission text:

“Proper identification of taxpayers is essential to effective exchange of information between tax administrations. The creation of European Taxpayer Identification Number (EU TIN) would provide the best means for this identification. It would allow any third party to quickly, easily and correctly identify and record TINs in cross-border relations and serve as a basis for effective automatic exchange of information between member states tax administrations.”

Brussels wants the ability to track every EU taxpayer, laying the foundations for a new European tax…


This also MUST re-open thewayonce again tocompulsory ID cards for UK (soon to be EU?) citizens


The report also calls for the EU to take over member states’ corporate taxation powers with a common corporation tax base, banning sovereign states from increasing their competitiveness by cutting corporation tax below 15%. This is a direct attack on sovereignty and attempt to create a new, centralised EU tax system…


UKIP’s Steven Woolfe says:

“If we stay in the EU, we will be forced to pay a European tax. Plans for an EU taxpayer ID system – effectively a new continental National Insurance number – demonstrates their real ambitions for further integration. They are laying the foundations for an EU tax system.”

We simply must: VOTE LEAVE

Fastship, reading your post made me realize that that item slipped my mind when replying to that absurd thing earlier.


Having already demonstrated the lie of the first sentence I move now to the rest of the paragraph. The same as said for Britain was true all over the world. Capital controls were one of the fixtures of the Bretton Woods system and, therefore, present in all Western European countries as well as in the USA, Canada and Australia. They were the rule until the early 1970s and, as a matter of fact, the UK kept them until the late 1970s.

Yes, and in trying to stick with case studies relevant to the in/out debate (rather than general economic theory/practice) I offer:

1. The Grexit issue continues more or less unabated following on from 12 months ago.
There is an interesting commentary below from a world reknowned economist.
Europe’s Attack on Greek Democracy
I feel that you won't agree with every premise therein, but it does make an interesting perspective.
Certainly, it is a well informed comment on the issues of 12 months ago which continue today, unabated and virtually non-debated in the UK.

2. Today, we have further mention of the buzz word "austerity" in the UK.
In truth, the UK has yet to implement such a programme if the definition is accepted of "reducing the national debt".
The UK national debt continues to rise.

Stiglitz is precisely one of the Academia economists to whom I referred earlier with a touch of politician. As a general rule he has been historically wrong when speaking about real world conditions. Let's not forget that he is one of those who praised Chavez economic rule in Venezuela, the Syriza confrontational attitude when they took power and also tried to meddle in Spain whose subsequent growth came totally against his expectations.

I don't waste my time reading him. As soon as I opened the link and noticed the name Stiglitz didn't read further.

On what concerns Greece, there was no real case for bailing them out then and what is happening is exactly what was expected. They were bailed out (again!) merely for political reasons, specially because Donald Tusk didn't let it go any other way when it all pointed to a lack of agreement. Given that Mrs. Merkel also wanted to hold on to Greece, when things looked desperate she grabbed the hand offered by Tusk and an agreement (or sort of...) happened. It would had been prefereable for everybody just letting the Greeks fall. Including for the Greeks themselves. There are societies which, because of their very nature, are not able to be rich and prosperous. The way Greeks approach money, work, state, citizenship, etc, etc, is mediocre to say the least. They won't ever be prosperous. Now, the Euro is designed considering that all its members work towards their own prosperity which, in turn, leads to the prosperity of the whole. It's an utopia, of course, but it is the thinking behind the whole shebang. Now, this is true for Germans, Dutch and some others but far from true when we speak about Greeks or Portuguese. The rules of the Euro are alien to these societies and, therefore, they are not able to function within them. They don't even understand them and the results are those which we all see. I think it would be better for everybody to just allow them to exit the Euro and live life the way they know, the way they can according to their culture and the way they want. Any harm is of their own making and, with time (decades, not years), maybe (or maybe not) they can, on their own, move forward towards other paths.


What has been coined as "Austerity" is merely going back to living within one's means instead of borrowing and living the present with the future people's earnings.

Accepted on both counts, with some reservations about the "future childrens' earnings" element.
Those points were posted by me as a means of adding to the discourse.

In his final sentence of his article, Stiglitz does refer to an issue which has received little mention here so far:-
"Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present."

A few other countries could replace the word "Greece" in that thought.
This is related to your earlier point about Portugal/France.

That is more or less what I say in the paragraph added after posting originally. I agree that if they go out of the Euro they will loose any chance of being prosperous. But, then again, within the Euro they aren't for they don't know how to live with a strong currency as the Euro so it goes more or less to the same. There are caveats, however. If Greece leaves the Euro, the new dracma will be worthless and so Greek society will go back easily 50-70 years in living standards. And yes, I'm fully aware of their conditions after World War II and from then onwards. They will easily revert back to that.

It's the first time, though, that I see Stiglitz assuming that they will be less prosperous out of the Euro rather than in. It seems that age is being good for him. At least it's bringing him realism and wisdom. It's a start.

Now, where I don't agree is on the "hopeful future" thing. The hope would last only the first week if that. Then, when people start realising that all they have in their wallets is colored toilet paper, hope goes down the drain very fast. I totally assume that there is a strong chance even of a civil war in Greece following their exit of the Euro but, then again, is of their own making and societies must be allowed to solve their disputes themselves and live as they wish. It's their problem more than anyone else's.

Mr Panos has the answer!
 

Greek People "Genius!"

:biggrin:

[Well, this is The HUBB PUB after all!]

Thanks for sharing this and my deep respect for Geoffrey for his words and courage!

It is shocking how much our freedoms, our peace and our prosperity is taken for granted by some and how little understanding of history, economics and common sense there is. I for my part am gonna stop trying to disprove all of these ludicrous statements, as frankly facts are being made up along the way. Just one example for the nonsense that's been written:

This is no big revelation but just simple algebra: USD cancels out. It would work with "pink bunnies" instead of "USD". Needless to say, the rest is also wrong.

Another one is this:

i'm sure Franco was a delight! And indeed, there are no parallels to Mussolini's fascismo. None at all! Franco was a moderate. A man of the people! So, it's OK moving a bit into that direction, cause it wasn't really that bad.


Absolutely! I recently read an article on the Weimar Republic: Many people tend to forget that the NSDAP started off as a grassroots anti-establishment movement and over more than a decade its influence on public opinion, together with socioeconomic factors and a xenophobic, antisemite and nationalistic sentiment have led to the atrocities that followed. This is not to draw a direct comparison to current debates, that would be inaccurate. But the very fact that some of the sentiments and campaign slogans reappear, not only in the Brexit discussion, but accross Europe (or even the western world), should worry people. It should worry them a lot!

No, it is not. While much of the Bretton Woods system died, some parts of it are still alive. The conversion of all currencies being done via the USD (I don't even know how could it be any different with the unconvertibles...) and the USD being the reference for all others, however, is something which kept in existence and is still real to this day. Mostly due to the USD being the reserve currency of the world (thus having the required liquidity worldwide to settle any transaction) and, therefore, the most practical as reference but also because the USD replaced gold on this role after the end of the direct convertibility of the USD to gold.


I did not and will not enter into the discussion if Franco was good or bad. The point is merely it being fascism or not. There are similarities but also differences. Francoism was similar to Mussolini's fascism but not a fac simile. The true fascists in Spain, the Falange, were only one part of the regime and, as a matter of fact, they never held any of the powerful ministries, this being, Finance and Economy, Foreign Affairs (after the end of WWII) or Defense, having always being relegated only to social ministries and after 1958 their importance diminished over time. If we talk about Portugal's Salazarism then it's a whole different thing. The only similar point was corporativism. Other than that, Salazar's dictatorship was very different even from Franco's. The true fascists in Portugal, Integralismo Lusitano, were, as a matter of fact, strong opponents to Salazar's government and a true headache for him while they lasted which was only until the mid-late 1930s. From then onwards the fascist movement in Portugal was disbanded and had no influence neither in the regime nor in the society whatsoever. Their leader, Rolão Preto, attempted occasional come-backs but never had the least success.

Who would care to disagree with this man?
 

This is the guy who was mis-represented by the staff of number 10 Downing st a few months ago:-

Former British military commanders rallying for a Brexit

The treaty of Rome
 

It was a blank contract when signed:-
BBC NEWS | Europe | How divided Europe came together
and, therefore, not valid.

Thats good. Why on earth anyone would think we need a European Army is beyond me. What a waste of time and money...All this is doing is giving some No Mark in the EU a job to do and paying them a stupid pay scale for interfering in other countries armed forces. Plus it is taking away more power from countries and giving more say to the Weasels in Brussels. It will be very detrimental to our Forces if this were to happen. The EU have no backbone and way and if it does it is made of glass with a bit of yellow tinting.
We have NATO which is sufficient if not better. We can get just the same done and individual countries will have a say over their armed forces......But then again that takes the Dictatorship out of the the EU's hands

Wayne

I am totally for Brexit and will be voting that way but I think it will be like flogging a dead horse. Because I don't think people in the country have the b@lls to say leave and they will vote for the life they know rather than a little bit of uncertainty until we as a country find our feet again. But I think what they fail to realise is that the life they know is going to change. The EU is gradually taking over more and more.
EU army, more control
EU Tax numbers, more control
I read somewhere EU police, more control
Bailing out of Greece (now they owe the EU and are in their pocket), more control
I suppose if I did more research I could find more.

It will be a shame when the day comes when we are sold out and just become a state within the EU and we loose all our countries identity...because it will happen.
We have been to war twice to defend our rights and to protect the people of the EU, I think they forget that when they are trying to roll us over. Yes I know people will think I am talking crap, but all of us are entitled to our own opinion, and after defending this country (this country not the EU) for 22 years I am entitled to mine.
Yes we vote for MEP's but we do not vote for the select few who 'so called' run the place, why is that, that is not democracy
Why have the EU never had to account for the monies they spend (waste)? Are they above it all?
Why so much hassle over trade?
What gives that snivelling wretch Junker the right to dictate to other countries?
Why won't they let the UK help its ailing Steel industry? Instead they are letting cheap Chinese sh!t3 come in to the EU
Why is it that other countries can catch more fish in our waters than we can?
Why are we paying Billions of £'s to support other countries? (When it could be better spent on our country) Surely if they can't afford to be in the so called "Club" then they should be asked to leave
Why are people claim benefits for children who are not even living in the UK?
Yes they might be little trivial things...But they all add up and if you think its right to do then fine

Yes I suppose younger generation will want to stay because the don't know anything different, but the older generation do. (or the majority of) It quite summed it up for the me the other morning and I think it was on BBC Breakfast when they were interviewing a family who were split over Brexit and the daughter said I am voting to stay because we get visa free travel (or words to that effect)....well if thats all she has to worry/think about!?

Wayne

I couldn't care less whether we leave the Euro set up or not. Honestly, I just don't care. My life experience to date tells me that politicians are twats and none of them can be trusted no matter what they say. They will all voice their opinion, some will make a more convincing effort than others, but ultimately they couldn't give a toss what the ordinary person on the street thinks.
I have been eligible to vote for many, many years and I have never done it. I am somewhat disappointed in myself that I actually 'voted' on this poll :thumbdown:

Needless to say I chose the 'I don't care' option. :thumbup1: