Is starting a family really the end of travel freedom ?
 

It's no coincidence.

The vast majority of people who seem to endlessly travel the world before retirement age do not have children. And if they do, they're often estranged from them.

Prolonged travel in difficult environments is a selfish endeavour. Independence, freedom and the great expense of it all is rarely compatible with family life for those of us who live in the real world.

I am 41 this month and my partner is 38. We both enjoy our independence, travel and our lifestyles. And we are in no illusion that we can only maintain this lifestyle because we don't have the cost and responsibility of children.

But we are in a biological point in life where we feel like we have a choice to make.

Family or independence !!!!!

How many people do we know who are "Waiting for the kids to grow up" before they can finally realise their travel dreams to head off on a trip which is more than a couple of weeks on the continent. And by then, they're too broke, too tired or just lost the desire.

Packing little Jimmy off to School one morning and then heading off on a RTW doesn't work for 99% of us.

It raises the questions.

Do people travel because they are filling the void of a family ? Or do people avoid having a family because they want to maintain their freedom and independence ?

However, I do appreciate there are many other reasons why people chose not to have a family.

I also realise having a family is one of the greatest adventures in itself. And I appreciate one can never fully understand it until they do so themselves.

I've met people who have tried to do both and but by god, it seems a chore. And not fun at all. And I know that my partner would not even entertain the idea. And we couldn't afford to anyway.

All of my riding and travel friends that I grew up with now have families. One by one their bikes were sold, their backpacks thrown in the attic and they now live for their children. They holiday in resorts and complexes and spend weekends painting their spare room. However, they don't seem to regret it.. Their kids mean everything to them.

So is travel just a poor comparison to family ??

When you are lying in your death bed, will you regret not having a family more than not seeing the world ?

This issue keeps me up at night..

Because you're not very old (really), you're under the impression that 20 years--of childrearing, say--is a long, long time. I've been out on my own, for 50 years now, which has allowed me time for a fairly vast variety of stuff, including more travel than most people manage. I'm not done yet, and neither are you, with or without kids.

Yeah, you make choices, but committing to childrearing now wouldn't mean the end of your travels; it'd just mean changes in approach, and maybe some different forms of adventure for a while. And when you're my age--a spritely 65 who complains a lot--you'll realize you were barely even started at age 41.

This is hard for you to believe right now, of course. That's ok; you'll see. When I was 39 I took off for a yearlong RTW trip, certain I was running out of time. Heh heh.

Hope that's helpful. At the very least, please get in touch in 25 years so I can remind you that I told you so.

Mark

I did meet some familys on my journeys. Parents who was travelling with 1-3 kids. Extended with "homescooling". I even meet a single mom who was travelling with 2 kids...

So it depends too on your counterpart, how your travel life will looks like with kids.

It has not to be "the end" of extended travelling, maybe you had to take the van.

If we all really have to go the "family / children" way, is very hard to say. What will we regeret in 20 years? How honest are the People with/without kids, after reviewing their decisions after 20 years?

We all have to live with our decisions, so probably we dont want to hurt our own balance with ongoing "self reality checks" with decisions we cant make undone.

Funny to read parallels to "the hidden costs of travelling extended at differtent stages of our life " thoughts..

Surfy

The answer to that is .... probably. I'm even older than Markharf so there's a lot of perspective to look back on, and from my vantage point now I'd say that going down the family route has been worth it. It doesn't mean the end of travel - or it hasn't for me anyway - but there has been an added life element of 'from tiny acorns, mighty oak trees grow'. Just as you've had to juggle travel with work and try to get each to come to an accomodation with the other, adding a family dimension is just adding a third leg to the stool. It may seem like the end of your travel life at the time but it opens up a lot of other ideas and opportunities that you might have otherwise dismissed. For example we rediscovered skiing and both our kids ended up good skiers by the age of 4.

I freely admit to being a reluctant parent and had I remained married to my first wife we almost certainly wouldn't have started a family. Even after remarrying she never did have children. Neither have two of my (male) friends. Both of them never saw it as a priority in their lives and they still don't regret the decision. So it's not for everyone, and had my current (!) wife not 'insisted' I'd just have let things slip until it was too late. Children were always something 'for the future'. I was a little younger than you (39) when our son was born and a few years older when our daughter came along. Interestingly (for me anyway) I can remember talking to a client back then about how I felt way too old to be a parent at 42 / 43. She was in her early 60's and laughed at me, saying you've hardly started at your age. And she was right.

There are issues with children in the family though. It is hard work and the problems you have to deal with change as they get older. We tried to sneak travel plans into their early years (Granny was happy to get involved) and managed (with 8 month old son) a wilderness camping trip across Scotland. Our next one, a trip to Kenya when he was 18 months old, didn't go so well though. Two days before departure, on a booze cruise day to Calais, he took ill on the ferry and ended up in Calais hospital for 2 weeks in an oxygen tent. That had us reappraise our priorities. For a number of years after that travel became subdivided. There were 'kids trips' - adventure playgrounds, Eurodisney (no flights - it's not worth the stress), summer camping in France, Spain. Then there were 'us trips' where the kids would tag along with our plans and finally 'me trips' where we'd each go our own way for a bit. I managed to get down to West Africa by bike a few times and over to the US as well during that period but they were hard to arrange.

There's little point fast forwarding 20yrs when you're staring what feels like a voluntary prison sentence in the face but life doesn't end with children, it just takes a different direction and one that is often just as interesting as the plans you already had. As my two kids have grown up we encouraged them to travel themselves and in recent years they've been the ones hauling us off to places. Covid notwithstanding I might end up in Japan this autumn on the back of my daughter's travel plans. Without a doubt having children around does keep you 'thinking younger', something that'll become more important as your decades pass. Interestingly in light of this discussion the whole issue has come full circle for us as our son and his wife are now expecting their first - a daughter - to arrive this Sunday coming. They've already planned their first trip for this July.

I don't see this as an “either/or” question, but a “how” question. In my own case, I’ve travelled all of my life, both in the sense of moving homes around the world, and also in terms of taking trips from these homes, for periods from days to months. When my children were at our many homes, we took lots of trips, although I have to say that they were never more than a month or so. We decided not to embark on any “big trips”, in the “overlanding” sense, while the children were at school.

During our subsequent “big trips” over the last decade we’ve met lots of families on travels, from a weekend to a few years. Travelling with children for more than a couple of months means a different approach to their education than would be considered “normal”, however it’s entirely feasible, and arguably gives them an education very valuable in ways that a sedentary education cannot.

In terms of cost, once again I think it’s a question of “how”. We travel, on our “big trips”, in a vehicle in which we sleep. If we were travelling as a family of 3, 4, or even more, then we could do this easily by adding a tent (ground tent or rooftop) or two to the spread. Food and drink cost more or less the same whether you’re travelling or not (and in much of the world you can eat more economically than in the “developed” world. Fuel consumption is essentially the same whether you're two or five in the vehicle. Obviously if you occasionally stay at a hotel or lodge then it’ll cost more to have more than one room, however overall it's not much more expensive than travelling as a couple. The families we've met were travelling in much the same style as we do.

So, entirely doable in my view.

My 1c's worth, when you have children you have a responsibility to them, not just for them. Some time away is one thing, extended periods are not fair either on them or on the person who has to care for them. When my kids were small I used to go away to the Isle of Man every year for 2 weeks to race, and several weekends a year at short circuits. That in itself is potentially rather selfish but happily I managed to come back whole (well, usually). The penalty (apart from the financial one) was I missed some valuable time with my kids growing up, and even now they are closer to their mother than to me.

Which is a longwinded way of saying while you have responsibilities (family, mortgage, pension payments, etc) you need to make them your priority. Go travelling when you're young, sleep in bus shelters, work in bars to pay. Or do it when you're older, the pension is waiting for when you need it, the house is paid for and the kids have left home - doing big trips in between is asking for trouble later in my view.

I appreciate what you're saying. If I had kids when I was 22, I'd already be kicking them out of the door and free to do what I wanted now.

However, It's quite likely I'd never have travelled at all and I'd probably be broke, fat and ruined like the rest of my friends who had kids when they were 21. :cool4:

I just REALLY regret not doing a lot more travelling in the last decade. But there were other obstacles such as my disabled mum who only passed away two years ago.

If I have kids now, I'll be in my 60's before they're adults. By then we'll be in lockdown 45698 and travel will have been banned outright anyway ;)

When we were out and about on the bike seeing a good chunk of the world we never met any fellow motorcycle travellers who had kids in tow, but we've spent most of the last twenty years sailing another chunk of it, during which we've met dozens and know of hundreds of yachties who've got their kids with them. Home/boat schooled and the overwhelming majority seem to grow up to be smart, personable young men and women; learning to sail/navigate ain't rocket science and ocean capable yachts don't have to be as expensive as you might think. :palm:

Hurry up and have them now but make a pact with your partner that they’re out the door at 18 - if you’re quick you’ll still be under 65.

We haven’t got kids and think about when we’re older - no one will come and see us, no grandkids, it could be very lonely.
Our plan is to set up some kind of holiday business so we actually interact with people.

None us are the same, we all have a diffrant life style !
Most people have a family. but miss out on other things in life !
THERE IS NO RIGHT or WRONG
I have a family of motorbikes etc !!!!:scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter:: scooter::scooter::scooter::scooter:

This is something I think about.

Rotting away alone in a shit hole waiting for the end. No family because I chose freedom and no money because I spent it all on motorcycles and travel.

I looked after my semi-disabled mum for ten years before she died. I shudder to think what her life would have been like if she didn't have kids and family to around her. It breaks my heart just at the idea of it.

Then again, there are plenty of parents who have kids who throw them in a home. Or maybe they move abroad and have their own lives. "Thanks for nothing mum and dad, I'm off to to the Mars Colony - Don't live too long now. I want my inheritance."

Having a family is no guarantee of a happy one is it.

Studies show that couples without children are happier than those that have them.

Couples without children must obviously have issues - or so most will assume of anything so unconventional. Put full time traveling on top, and you obviously must be messed in the head. Only thing worse would be to go solo.

Now, there are families with 1-2 small children who have done RTW on bikes - who loved it. But it is extremely uncommon. Crushing on a sailboat is more common.

For years I considered taking my kids RTW one way or another. In the end I came to the conclusion that roots, social networks, close friends and family, shared history, and conventional competences and social skills give the greatest odds for an upbringing that give the best prospects for long and lasting happiness in life for MY children. I thought it would be egotistical to go ahead with it.

As it takes some +20 years for them to become independent, my everlasting travel dreams were shelved. I'm happy with family life, but I am still often drawn

My kids are my number one love and priority... but if I could have made my choices 8ver, I would probably not had kids - because it affects every decision 5hst comes after, to the day you die.

I still to on adventures by carving out a chunk for a decent trip every few years. But going on those as a couple is no longer an option.

In two years, my son is old enough to start "practicing" on a 125 (at age 15), which means that he can ride across the country as long as I ride behind him with 7ntercom, and my daughter can pillion with my girlfriend. Two years after that it is her turn. Two years after that we can ride anywhere in the world, in each our bikes - during school holidays.

Is that how it will turn out? Probably not. My next long trip will have to wait another ten years.

Family and rootlessness seldom mix well...

Remember, when its time to choose if you are going to a 4th rate nursing home or a 2nd rate one it will be good to have someone who cares in your corner. Lots of people can travel when they are 65, but by then most of my friends from my 20's had either died, were rotting in jail, or hiding from me.

This tread is getting too morbid now !:ban:

It's not morbid one bit. Unless you're living in denial that our time on this planet is finite.

Just scroll on brother. Plenty of other threads to read :thumbup1:

Just to get kids, to get help at age seems not to be the right way.

I would not want that my kids take care on my, and are restricted in their own developement of live in any way.

We can do a live we like. If we like to be well covered at age, get more than a goverment offical retirement home - we should save bucks for - and we dont should plan that our kids should look after us, or have to pay that bill.

But to see kids grow up, see their kids grow up, could help us too to keep young(er)...

But lets get out of the more morbid discussion bier

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...pg?format=750w

Ted Simon - 90 and Still Riding

An age of 70 or 80 - has not to be the end of travelling..

https://adventureriderradio.com/adve...WIVGLsDLVwIyWk

Surfy

Is it me or is there a difference in the advice from the Americans/Canadians and Brits/Europeans?

Personally, and I was a secondary school teacher for a short while, I think the education system in the UK is life sucking, with a societal attitude to Match.
Seems to me everyone on this side of the pond is saying knuckle down, those kids need a base and school every day.
Our cousins are saying, well a bit of both: a few years schooling then a long trip (with the kids) perhaps move to a different place a few times.

Neither of my parents went to school much - they were wealthier than I’ll ever be.
My uncle never went to school and couldn’t read or write when he came to Britain, he travelled the world, had 5 kids and died a wealthy man.

The real question you should be asking, which has already been touched upon, is about your relationship. Do you love your partner so much that you want to mix your genes together and have kids?
Does she feel the same?
I don’t think it’s just about having kids - it would all be automated by now if that was the case.
I suspect that, if the answer is yes, then have them and everything else will sort itself out. There’s a Myriad of scenarios that may change your life and alter its path but love is the foundation of our species - get that right, that’s the main thing.
bier

[QUOTE=*Touring Ted*;618579]It's not morbid one bit. Unless you're living in denial that our time on this planet is finite.

Just scroll on brother. Plenty of other threads to read :thumbup1:[/

Dear "brother " . its my opinion of the tread and i am entitled to say what i think !
I understood this site is about Motor Bike travel. not peoples misfortunes in life

No kids yet, but for just about the first time in my life I feel like I am in a position to have some. In terms of being in a good relationship, and in terms of where my head's at. (And financially, though I've been fortunate in that sense for a while now.)

Three years or so ago, I left my nice cushy IT job in a company where I had spent 13 years (started in university). I had freedom, I had a bit of cash in the bank, and I had an apartment that would generate a little more every month. I didn't have an RTW-worthy bike, quite, but I could certainly get one. I seriously wanted to pull the trigger at that point, and go off. It was even timed perfectly, in the early Spring, with just a few weeks to set my affairs in order before prime riding weather in Europe.

Why didn't I? Lots of pros and cons, but the deciding factor was: Because I was in a relationship. It wasn't a particularly amazing one, it didn't end up lasting, but I knew what I got out of it, what I felt I owed to my partner, how important it was for me not to let my partner down - and so I didn't. (I got another job; then six months later, I had back surgery. Good thing I wasn't half way across Eurasia when my spine decided walking wasn't a good idea!)

Same thing happened a bit over a year ago: I got laid off, with a nice big settlement check. But again, I was in a relationship... and this time it wasn't even a hard decision. It was a case of looking inside myself, and understanding: If it wasn't for (the pandemic and) this person being in my life, then I would totally get on my bike and go around the world. This was not a doubt about the value of my partner to me, or my commitment - it was proof of it.

Today? I have a new mortgage, and we're getting a puppy.

I still want to travel the world, though I'm not dead-set on doing a full RTW overland. (It helped that I spent my late 20s and early 30s traveling, and have been to five out of six continents.) But the reason I so wanted to go on an extended trip three years ago was because - as Touring Ted mentioned - there was a void in my soul that needed filling, and travel was the one thing I found that came closest to filling it at least a little bit.

Now I can't feel that void any more.

Yes having children is the end of the life as you know it. Is it good or bad thing it is up to you.

You can travel with kids; it will be different kind of travel. It will be more along the lines of family van to Disney.. perhaps national parks.. they would need to get to ~10yo before you can stick munchkin on a back of the bike and ride into sunset.

There's also an opportunity when they get big enough for PW50, trails and racing. And you'd have a riding partner when they get to 16-18yo if you do it right.

[QUOTE=badou24;618583]

1) You are incorrect about the purpose of this site. It's about travel and everything that goes with it. Not just motorcycle.

2) This thread is in the Pub. Which is for threads that aren't really specific to any topic but it's what people who like travel may talk about if they were in a pub. So literally ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

3) It's not a misfortune.

4) Just ignore it if it offends or upsets you. keep your negativity to yourself. It's not welcome here.

Please don't make little Teds...
One is more than enough :Beach:

Ted Simon has just turned 90. And he is still riding. Inspirational :)

Did know that you would like to see your older Ted on Tour :mchappy:

Surfy

I have never been that fussed either way. When I was younger if i had been with someone that wanted kids I would have happily gone along with that but it never happened that way for me. As I have grown I am glad not to have had kids an the way the world an society are going it’s not a place I’d want to bring them into.

World's always been like that. I've been hearing people say much the same certainly back to the 60's, a time scale that probably covers the gestation of a fair few people here. Its been a lot worse in the past - imagine having children in 1900 or 1925, or even 1950 if you're from the US. Or way way back, having a house / hovel full of kids in 1348. Despite Covid these are not bad times in the grand scheme of things.


Come to any conclusions yet Ted? Just goes to show what a disparate bunch we all are, all with our own ambitions, disappointments, successes and life stories. Some travelling despite kids, some with them, some in place of them. If there's a greater wisdom to be got from it all I'll leave it to you to work out but the words damned if you do and damned if you don't come to mind on the back of a phrase I'm sure your partner will be familiar with - elderly primigravida. Basically it's now or never for both options and certainly for travel in the way you've done it up to now.

Let me just throw in a cautionary tale however. I mentioned before that I was a reluctant parent - basically because, even in my 30's, I didn't feel ready for it. There was one exception though, with someone I met in my early 20's. That, regrettably, didn't work out and travel (mine) was partly to blame. I knew fairly quickly I'd made a big mistake and when I think back to that period now it's the person that stands out and who I remember, not the travel I did. I've taken a lot of care since not to make the same mistake again, and looking very carefully at why I want to travel has been part of it. In fact searching my travel soul has become a bit of a mini industry with me, with a bike trip planned for last year (Covid cancelled) to explore what I get from it. Quite what a psychologist would make of that I'm not sure but despite having three available to me it's not something they're ever going to have to deal with. I'm not sure my experience is of much relevance to you directly other than to mention that sometimes what you think are equivalents don't turn out that way in the long run.

I never mentioned covid being a part of my decision. When I was a kid the summer holidays was for exploring on my bmx or building tree houses going out in the morning and roaming endlessly across fields till it was time to go home exhausted at the end of the day. If I got thirsty I’d stop at a pub to get my water bottle filled or ask someone that was in their garden . It’s not that world anymore where I live

I left my home country as I got a chance to do. I lived, worked in foreign countries and I travel as much as I could afford in time and money. From my 20s on I never lived longer than 5 years in one town. I came to the decission not to have kids in my 30s because I wanted live my life my way and without respondsibilities for a family.

Traveling was never a substitute for anything for me. It still gives me independence and let me feel a kind of freedom for sure.

However suddenly the day arrived when my mum started suffering from demencia. I quit my job, moved 600km up to her to live with her and to nurse her. Did this for 4 years - since a year she is living in a special nursing home.

That`s a plus if you will have a son like me. But if you will have a son like my brother who has 3 kids, then you get only once visited a year when it fits his plans. So, kids are are garantee for nothing...

Do I worry what will be in future when I am getting old or when I start suffering from an illness? No, I don`t. I learned and I am used to live on my own. I learned to take/accept help from others if I needed it. In life and in travellife. I am not afraid what will happen to me later - the pandemic showed me in the last 12 months by a number of people I personal knew that life goes and ends in unforeseeable ways.

It will change your perspective if you will have a kid or more. That doesn`t mean in the same time that you cannot travel anymore. Maybe in the first years of your kid you have to change your style of traveling. But you will do automatically and maybe you will buy a motorcycle with a sidecar?

Life means continuous traveling in a direction with an unknown destination in time and place.

Coco Chanel once said: "I do regret nothing in life, except everything I didn`t do". I think that is the point because nobody of us will ever know what had happend when he/she had found a different decision.

In short: You cannot answer yourself the question of the death bed till your are actually lying on it.

A great post.
You’re right but I think you must still ask the question, often in your life, in order to walk the path - no guarantees that you’ll end up where you thought you were heading, but each journey starts with a decision on which road to take.
bier

We chose a somewhat middle path - from the US originally but left about 30 years ago. Kids were born in Europe. We've tended to move countries/continents about once a decade, and then spend the next decade exploring the surrounding region/countries. It winds up being a bunch of shorter trips rather than one big one, but you can fit a lot into long weekends, school holidays and the like. And the advantage is that the kids grow up with a world experience that is amazing, yet also have some stability and structure. We're at 90+ countries and counting ... and are constantly told that we've seen more of [name your country - currently Australia] than most locals.

If you and your partner want to travel and have kids, you will/can. If both or either of you don't, you won't. Everything else in between is just hot air.

Off the top of my head I've met these 4 couples:

1. Swiss couple who drove a Landy from Switzerland to Australia with a 2 year old. Had second baby in Oz and drove back with an infant and a now 4 year old. Apparently mother's milk is all the child needed. Generated a lot of interaction with locals in countries like India.

2. German couple in Brazil in a campervan who had started their trip in the US with two under 10 y.o. kids. Every few months they signed them up in a local school. They now speak Portuguese and Spanish as well as having the adventure of a very young life(time).

3. US/Thai couple in Peru travelling in a sidecar outfit with a youngish daughter. The parents home schooled their daughter

4. Scandinavian couple who rode motorbikes from Cape Town to Cairo in the mid 1990s with their 2 kids. The 10 year old girl was on the back of dad's bike. Mum rode solo. 14 year old son rode his own 250cc dirtbike. They home schooled them.

You've both just got to WANT to do it. My ex wife didn't. That's the principle reason she's my ex.

Based on my limited observations, I would guess its easier to travel with younger kids. Couple with a side car traveling with a 4-5 year old were okay once they put a mesh over the side car and baby couldn't throw all his toys away. Young couple traveling by van with two small kids, at a camp in Panama, one kid asked me "have you had your water pill today?"--answer yes, small white lie. Teenagers would be a real problem, way more likely to whine and bitch.

Based on my limited observations, any sprog of Ted's would probably be highly skilled at whining and bitching :blushing: :D

Sorry. I'll get my hat and coat :innocent:

On the teenagers point, I think it depends on what the kids are used to. If they've been going to new and interesting places all of their lives, they're more likely to adapt and have fun (at least ours did). If they're used to hanging out at the mall every weekend with a group of friends, taking them away from that may be more difficult. It might still be good for them, but likely more difficult.

I wouldn't say your observations are that limited. :thumbup1:

Don’t have kids, stay free, if you change your mind later on in life, adopt, the world is too overpopulated & there is children in need.....

spot on !!

Terry, Sandy and Jack Borden - Adventure Trio
https://www.advmotoevents.com/presenters/adventure-trio
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcas...=1000347274350
They started motorcycle traveling with their son when he was 5 yrs old.

I think that I once listened to a Adventure Rider Radio Podcast where somebody from Motorcycles Industry talked about traveling with his Kids in a sidecar - (don`t remember the name right now)

Like in many areas of life - alcohol, fresh food, even travel - it's a lot easier to make your own rather than buy it in. If you ever want to see petty bureaucratic value judgements being made over every aspect of your life, from how much dirt is under your fingernails up, get involved with child adoption. We had to have two interviews, a house inspection and a followup inspection six months later to get a cat from the rescue centre. You don't just pick one off the shelf - human or cat - any more.

I dread to think what's involved. The RSPCA say I'm unfit have anything more sentient that hardy indoor plants. The slightly dodgy rescue place down the road sold me two dogs and two cats 14-18 years ago. One ancient dog and cat are still with us. The puppy farmers only want to know if I have money.

No kids here, I don't particularly like them (a no doubt unpopular fact in some company, although I have stopped telling mental Mumsnet types I'm secretly gay) and the wife isn't that bothered. Not much travel mind, I keep getting jobs and have parents still here. I live in more hope than friends who'll be using any inheritance to put their kids through university.

Andy

I have three kids and, to be honest, I wouldn’t be without them. The have filled our life with so much laughter. And tears. And worry. And frustration. There was more laughter along the way too. We wanted kids and were lucky enough to be able to have them. We discussed the possibility of not being able to have kids naturally and we decided that we wouldn’t have IVF - if the situation arose then we would have adopted / fostered.

Having children is an individual choice and, as has been said, there are too many of us for the planet to carry on as we are. The children have put my travels back some years - probably for the best to be honest as it allowed me to grow into myself and be ready to travel - I had a test trip years before I met my wife and I wasn’t ready - I enjoyed it but I was not comfortable enough in my own skin for a long trip. Then. I have changed, partly due to time and partly due to the family I have and I think I am more ready to travel now than I was 30 years ago.

Essentially what I am trying to say is that kids cans top you travelling but they can also make you more ready to do so later.

You clearly know nothing about adoption (in the UK)! Good friends of mine tried and despite being thoroughly upstanding members of society (unlike me!) were unsuccessful. The bureaucracy involved would appear to be an utter clusterfcuk ( my words, not theirs. They don't even swear...).

Yes. Bureaucracy has ruined the world.

I tried to adapt a dog with my ex from a rescue home that was scheduled to be put down due to it's age and the time it was in the home for.

They refused our application because our fence was the wrong height.

So they put it down. There simply aren't words. Just policy.

I have a friend who has recently adopted a child. It was a torturous and prolonged process. They would literally let a child be abused, psychologically damaged for life and raped by priests than adopt it to a family that used the wrong colour pen on their form. It's probably cheaper. That's what most things come down to in Britain. A costed equation.

I know absolutely nothing about adoption in other countries other then my own. Let’s say it’s hard to do, does that mean don’t bother because it’s too hard?

As my wife put it kindly if they've required to do 1/10 of the paperwork to have kids normal way, we would die out in one generation. This is not counting that normal kids are rarely up to adoption.

Adoption is an act of desperation not convenience.

Sorry but I totally disagree.. I have 2 birth daughters age 27 and 22 but 13 years ago we decided to foster children to try and give them a better outlook in life.

We had some really challenging children in our care and one of those children I'm proud to say is now my son. People often assume that children in care are bad eggs but we have had the privilege to nurture some amazing kids who just wanted to be loved and respected.

My son was taken into care on his 1st birthday after being left with a fractured skull and severe neglect from his scumbag birth parents. We fostered him from 18 months old and when he was age 4 the local authority told us he was being put up for adoption. We all cried and said we couldn't let him go.... Yes the adoption process was painful and took nearly 2 years of red tape (they didn't want to lose us as foster parents) but we never looked back. He is now nearly 13 and he makes us all very proud.

So to conclude (IMO)... adoption is about giving a child a second chance, someone they can call mum and dad, someone they can turn to for support and guidance. There are thousands of children out there who haven't got this support we often take for granted. I wouldn't change any of my kids for the world

I'm 54 now and done a fair bit of European motorcycle travel but I still have time left to do the longer trips in the future. :mchappy:

Cheers
Steve

@Bones667 all I can say to you good luck. IMO 13yo is a little bit premature to count chickens you're only halfway through.

As for original question adoption is an expensive bureaucratic nightmare and kids are not put for adoption for good reasons; they have disproportionately high percentage of health, mental, developmental and psychological issues. It is good that you are willing to deal with it but some people are simply not equipped to deal with it.

Moreover if something goes wrong (and it can go wrong with any child, adopted or not) significant number of parents keep coming back and blame it on decision. In some cultures it is a custom to hide the adoption fact, and it might be a good thing.

Just to politely remind folks (including me) that this a thread about how having kids might affect your ability to travel. It'd be good to not to stray too far :offtopic:

Wow, a topic I have vast experience and knowledge about, a first..!!
Basically Ted, you are indeed at the biggest crossroad in your life to date. Here's your saving grace, there is no wrong direction to take here but there is a right decision to be made. IF your current partner is 'THE' one and the mere fact that you're considering children then my guess is you'll make a good Dad and having them will leave no regrets. It will however throw the anchor out on travel. Having kids and maintaining the responsibility to bring them up safely and healthy is the hardest thing you'll ever endure in life trust me. Don't listen to folk who try to advise you about kids if they haven't got any themselves. If you are are happy with the amount of travel covered so far then having kids now will round off your life in the most amazing way. If you have doubts then tread very carefully. Kids need stability, travelling with kids is extremely difficult and it's only my own opinion here but I feel it's mildly selfish and a tad irresponsible to drag them RTW, I may get my balls chewed for that but whatever....
Ted, it's time for gut instinct mate, good luck...!!!

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Having kids certainly put the brakes on my travel aspirations but having dogs did it first.

Bikes were no longer an option: in came the Ural, but that never really went anywhere.

Then followed a van, converted for sleeping and that might revive the lifestyle to a point as I hope to resurrect overlanding this summer with my daughters in tow.

A few families manage the lifestyle, but it takes a certain kind of person to pull it off. Were I to try it, I fear I would be consumed by what-if-itis before reaching the first border crossing, but I'd still like to show them the world that way if I can.

I can only guess that it takes a lot more ressources and planning to have it both ways (kids + rtw travel)

At the minimum you have to switch from motorycles to rigs.

For most it's not possible to do both. Heck just one of the two is hard to achieve/make happen for many.

Sorry to say it but I think that if you’re in your forties now, you’ll struggle to do serious RTW type travel and have kids.

I travelled a lot until having my first at 34. After that, until my second went to university about twenty years later, we had holidays but no travel. I did meet people travelling and home schooling their kids but always felt sorry for the children. They had no stability, no friends, no teammates, classmates. Imagine trying to teach your children all the subjects needed at high school. But socialisation with your peers can’t be taught.

I started travelling again properly once my two were up and running in university. We started with just six weeks, then ten weeks the next year, then nine months the next but we’d been fortunate with money.

Why not try living overseas, rather than move around? Base yourself in a continent and country that interests you and take your family on holidays over there. Your whole year will feel like an adventure as you explore the language and culture around you. I lived sixteen years in the Far East and loved it. Your kids will become bilingual, as will you probably. Even if you went to an English speaking country like Oz, your adventure continues. Do the same job in England and it’ll feel like a compromise or drudgery.
Your children deserve your best shot.

Best of luck mate; I’ve enjoyed your posts over the years.

Cheers bier

I think I have come to the same conclusion. I'm heading to Central America in October and hunting for land.

Excellent. Good countries, lovely people, quite a few non-Latino travellers with vehicles travelling through so maybe some land with a hostel/bar and vehicle maintenance?

All the best.

Ted - how was your hunting? Did you buy some land for later use?

Friends of me did buy land in costa rica - but that was definetively not a cheapie...

They plan to live there after retirement, but currently they didnt even have a hut, house or even a tent.

Surfy

Hey !

Well, I did indeed take a trip to Costa Rica. And as you say, anywhere you'd want to live is very expensive. And the general cost of living is cripplingly expensive too.

No kids yet. Fate seems to be playing out.

But hey. The road is calling. I'm off to Morocco for six weeks in October then spending the winter in Australia/New Zealand.

Unless the stork has other ideas ;)

I was really curious about your trip!

Yes, central america isnt cheap in direct comparison The map/website get us a nice view about the living costs.

Enjoy the road as long as you can bier

With kids you will have to add an sidecar :scooter:

There is always a way to travel further!

Surfy

I haven't seen that map before - very interesting.

My family thought my wife and I would never have kids - work and travel etc

At 31 we had our first and at 43 our 4th and last.

Our travelling changed but I don’t think for the worse. Just different.

I gained as much enjoyment showing the kids different places as I did when travelling solo/couple.

Our oldest two are adults and youngest are teenagers. I have just started travelling solo again for short periods and these will get longer as the teenagers become independent.

This photo brought me heaps of smiles …

It’s not a mysterious African jungle, but awesome nonetheless :)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6b6a053f94.jpg


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I've held off commenting on here for a while because I wasn't sure how to answer. I do have preferences but there are no absolute right (and not many absolutely wrong) answers.

One thing's for sure though, having kids is the beginning of a new phase in your life, one with responsibility for other people, and that responsibility lasts 18 years or more. If you asked me "Can I take a couple of years out and go RTW on my own" I'd tell you to give your head a wobble. If you asked me "Can I take the kids with me RTW?" I'd say go for it but be prepared for it to be hard work and for them at some point to hate you for it. But if you asked "How about going on shorter trips... maybe a few weeks... with or without the kids?" I'd applaud you for it.

Kids need stability, unlike adults they don't thrive on new experiences and they hate being away from their mates and familiar surroundings. Remember too, your great adventure is their gap in education that could stay with them all their lives.

The downside of course is once you dedicate a couple of decades to buying a house, having a career and family, by the time you're ready to do that big trip you're getting on in years yourself and not so resilient. Erm... like me. Still going though. The kids think I'm bonkers.

Agreed Tomkat.

Though I think the stability thing depends on the child’s experience.

Our family was deployed around the country so our kids didn’t put down roots in one location so taking 6 months off to travel was not a huge thing. Ours kids are all pretty grounded and stable despite this.

Though I think stability is generally a good thing.

:)


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Agree with several of the posters above that, although stability in general is a good thing, it doesn't necessarily mean "staying all the time in one place". We're permanent expats - kids born and grew up abroad. We tended to move continents every 5-10 years, explore all of the surrounding countries (and our new "home" country) on shorter trips fitted around school holidays, etc, and then moving on. The kids now have global friends (many of whom were also expats who moved around) and a very solid world outlook. It doesn't work for everyone, but if you've got some flexibility it can be great.

The effect on children of constantly moving base, whether it's through travel or having to move for work is difficult to assess. I doubt very young children (up to the age of three or so) would be bothered by it but as Tomkat has said many older children would not embrace it. Of course there's a big difference between trying to provide stability but being forced to move by circumstances and upending things to fulfil a parental dream of travel. You may see it as providing a broad geographical education (or some such) but I doubt the average eight year old would see it that way. I lived in eleven different houses before I was sixteen (UK and Ireland) and all I remember is saying goodbye to friends. I don't think it's any coincidence that I've now lived in this house for the last 35yrs and brought up my children without moving at all. I now see them (in their 20's and 30's) still in contact with some of their friends from primary school, something I was never able to do. All of my moves were brought about through my parent's work circumstances so somewhat unavoidable but to deprive children of that possibility for what might be seen, at one level anyway, as personal indulgence is something to be carefully considered.

Sometimes kids do have to move - military families etc - and then the kids accept it, because they know it's not the parents' choice. But speaking from personal experience we moved house 3 times (for job reasons, which I don't regret) and the kids hated it (I know because they told me!). For that reason I was careful not to do anything that might mean moving once they started secondary school. We did a few package holidays, which they didn't particularly like because they were stuck with boring adults instead of their friends, and of which the cultural highlights we tried to show them were ignored.

Here's a really good account of one person whose parents thought they were embarking on a great educational adventure, without understanding how their child actually saw it. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...olen-childhood

It all depends on the kids and what they're used to. Mine loved it - because all of their friends were in the same boat. And that's them speaking, not me.

Oh, and mine are also in their 20s, and still in touch with friends from grade school, middle school and high school - now spread across the world. They think nothing of stopping in Amsterdam to visit friends on the way to see us in Singapore. Again, everyone's circumstances are different - and technology has changed life a LOT.

Yes, the technology aspect has been a big change, no doubt about that, and if kids can't use it nobody can.

Odd, I looked upon it as the father bulldozing the family into doing what he wanted and to hell with the consequences rather than someone giving their children lots of opportunities....

Thanks for the link - I am not sure that I want to read the book, but then again I do want to read it - a bittersweet read I suspect.

Also, there's a BIG difference between life endlessly on a boat and life of multiple years on the ground, making friends with other expat kids who then go on to other places but keep in touch (but that is probably only true if you can send the kids to international schools, which is an extravagance).

That is a so called "worst case example" :(

To travel the world as kid in a disfunctional family isnt that, what parents or kids want to do.

Surfy

Nor me, but the article is a good read on its own.

My wife grew up in a military family and absolutely hated having to move around; she made her first proper friend after leaving home.

My wife too.

She did love the experience to life at different locations and countries.

So we will read here some personal experiences. Bad and good.

Don`t know if this will help someone, because each situation is different.

Surfy

Ah ok, this was living in communist military housing (as great as it sounds) and moving several times a year. She was frequently the only child within walking distance.