Vaccinated
 

Well I had my first dose of the AstraZenica vaccine the other day and have got a date of 4 June for the second dose. In fact the whole family apart from the youngest have been done and our eldest has even had the second dose (she is in the National Health Service so got priority). We didn't have any side effects but we did take paracetomol before getting the vaccine and afterwards for a couple of days. some of my staff have been knocked a bit sideways but they refused to take paracetomol.

The hospitalisation and mortality rates in the UK are down significantly but the actual numbers of infections seems to be going down more slowly - I suspect that some people are being reverting to old normal too soon thinking that the old people are protected so they can ignore the virus - wrong, you can't, it can, and does, kill younger people as well.

Also in the UK, I had mine last week, AZ also and I took paracetomol about an hour before the injection,
I felt a bit off about 9 hours after the injection, achy, temperature and feeling cold. Went to bed and felt better. Tired the next day but otherwise fine.
We've had quite a few people had work now that have had the vaccine and most had a few hours of feeling slightly ill but then fine.

From my experience, I won't plan to do much for 24 hours after the jab.

I have my first about a fortnight ago and also felt tired and a little achey for a day or two, yes numbers are down but I am still being carefull as before and hope others do the same.

The rule of thumb for side effects (based on the roughly 20 people getting each type that I know) seems to be -

Pfizer - you get a sore arm around the injection site. It can very sore (unable to sleep on it sore) for 1-2 days but no other symptoms.

AstraZenica - no sore arm (other than the effect of the needle going in) but flu like symptoms setting in 12-24hrs later and lasting for 1-3 days. Paracetamol mostly sorts out it out but a couple of people I know have had to take a few days off work.

Either way it's a lot better than getting Covid. At the moment I know of four people who have died from it, one still having problems with long Covid six months on, one who's got it at the moment and one person who had it and hardly noticed.

I had the AZ one six weeks ago but no sign of when I'll get the second shot.

I also had the AZ jab 2 weeks ago but no date yet for the second. They said approx 12 weeks. Same for wife

Took paracetamol after jab but had hot sweats and mild headache in the evening. A few glasses of wine and all good. Arm a bit sore for 3 days

My daughter had the AZ one as well and were poorly for 3 days with flu type symptoms

I had the first AstraZenica vaccine a few weeks ago and will get the second in april. I just had a light headache the next day and that was all. No problem.
I hope everybody will be vaccinated soon so we can start riding and traveling again to other countries (and have a pitstop in a nice restaurant or cafe while doing that) and goto events.

same here
 

AZ first dose some weeks ago
I am part of risk group.
I was very happy to get it.

Same "side effects"

The day after
- Some fever
- Some Headache
- Higher blod pressure
- Higher hart rate

Second day
- Nothing

And those minor things were expected accoring to the document that I received. So nothing to worry about. And nothing compared to what the Covid19 does.

I think that it is natural. The body reacts to the vaccin.
And start to produce antibodies.

Already the first dose give quite a good protection.
Lower risk the get sick.
And if you get sick, much lower probability that it get serious

And they say that the second dose gives less reaction.
I will get mine after 12 weeks.
This with 3 weeks was a result of early testing.
Where they did not wait that long.
Now it is prowen that 12 weeks OK, or even better.
(And more people can get the first dose,if we wait longer for the second)

But as mentioned abowe.
My behaviour has not changed. Still very careful

Wife and I got both Pfizers, no side effects. Nor sure what paracetomol is, no one mentioned to us.

Think Tylenol.

Interesting that most of the people that have had the vaccine are from the UK - I know we are ahead of the EU as a proportion of the population inoculated but I thought that the US was not far behind the UK. Hopefully this is just due to the time differences.

There does appear to be some sections of society that are not taking up the vaccine and these seem to be concentrated amongst some ethnic groups that have been targeted in social media with loads of disinformation (also know as lies / bull shit) suggesting all sorts of bad things will happen to the recipients - I really wonder about some people that go out of their way to make stuff up that aims to lead to other people dying.

There are a few unhappy people that are kicking off in the UK at the idea of having to prove that you have been vaccinated before being allowed to go to events / the pub / the cinema etc and the incorporation of the vaccination into a “passport” type document.

There's talk about disliking a "vaccine card" here in the States, of course. But I have to point out that the Yellow Card that one needs in order to prove vaccination for diseases like Yellow Fever and other similar diseases has been around forever. I think a lot of folks who don't travel do not know about the Yellow Card. I do have a Yellow Card, and now a card of record for the Moderna vaccine.

We need this vaccine in the States, because of the resistance and false information that flows. Some people think in terms of only me, vs we as a society. We have been warned here about the likelihood of a spike, because of vaccine resistance, and despite vaccinations completed. My attitude is if you have the opportunity to get a vaccine and decide not, then you made the choice and have to accept the consequences if you do eventually get covid. I remember pilio and smallpox vaccination along with TB testing programs from the 1950's, as a good thing. This is the first severe and global public health issue in 70 years, so memory is missing for most.

AZ one, two weeks ago, got it in the first phase of the roll-out (ambulance EMT).
No paracetamol, slight headache the next day.
Bring it on, let's see an end to this damned thing.

Pfizer for me here in Colorado- 2 doses and 2 weeks of settling- I'm happy.

My 96 year old mother- Pfizer, 2 doses. Her senior living apartment building is about 95% vaccinated and they have finally opened their doors to guests again. In fact, my wife and I were there, in her apartment tonight, eating dinner. First time in 12 months. :clap:

All my riding buddies have been vaccinated now too, but we're all greybeards, moving toward whitebeards.

My daughter, 32, and her boyfriend got their first jabs of Moderna yesterday.

US acceptance of vaccines has been pretty good in older populations, not as accepted in minority populations - but that is improving.

The ones who just won't get the vaccine are the dyed in the wool followers of our past president, who turned it into a political issue. I don't hold out a lot of hope for that group. Maybe they'll come around as they see we not dying, nor are we being controlled by Bill Gates (who in one version of the story was using the vaccine to implant chips in all of us. ?????)

...................shu

Apparently my parents (80 and 74) finally got their first shot today. I believe it was Pfizer.

No shot in sight yet for anyone under 70 here in BC. The gov't is saying maybe I'll get a first shot by July. The Canadian government really seems to have fumbled the ball on this one...

I don't suppose too many of us have enough knowledge of what virus's are, how vacines work, what precautions are essential / which are worthless etc to be able to cut through the bullsh*t on our own. So we have to choose who to believe, and often there's just enough 'pseudotruth' in some of the stories to cause you to doubt the official line, especially if you're suspicious of government and you're being told it by someone you trust.

Bill Gates microchips for example. No, there's no microchips being implanted, and no, the vaccine isn't going to change your DNA and turn you into a zombie (or whatever it's supposed to do) but two of the vaccines do inject RNA (DNA, RNA, potato, potaato) which goes into some of your cells and highjacks them to produce foreign proteins. If your political senses are more finely tuned than your virology ones that doesn't need much of a twist to become the message 'the government wants you to inject stuff into your body that'll take it over'. As nobody knows what proteins or RNA are microchips become a stand-in.

If you think that's patronisingly simplistic I know a health professional - a multi decade nurse - working in a large hospital who has refused to be vaccinated because 'it'll make me infertile'. She's in her 60's! Despite working with the stuff all day long her personal beliefs, sourced from her community, have overridden her professional knowledge. If she's taken in by it all what hope do many of the rest of us have.

Part of the problem with 'social passports' is that those most likely to need them will be the last to get them. If there's an unfulfilled need then 'alternative' sources will fill the void. Introducing them on a Monday to have the market flooded with fake ones by Friday isn't going to do much for disease control measures. My guess is a combination of the elections in May (don't upset the electorate just before they have to vote you back in) and how to produce something that won't be counterfeited (for a while anyway) is what's being kicked around in smoke filled rooms at present.

Djeeez, what a fuss...doh
I've carried this Health Passport' on all my travels for more years that I can recall. I really cannot fathom what the problem is- if having it opens borders for me otherwise closed to those who don't carry theirs (or maybe a more modern equivalent such as an app?)- I'm good to go.

And as far as having vaccinations are concerned- it's just a little prik- and many should, by now, be used to having one :Beach:

I had the Pfizer in February, no ill effects beyond any other vaccination. Waiting to get date for second shot and hoping "supply issues" won't delay it.

A lot of people said the UK, after delaying the second shot to 3 months against the manufacturers recommendation of 3 weeks, would experience a shortage after 3 months as they needed to catch up on the delayed second doses after the initial sprint, and that's what is happening it seems. How much of an advantage the strategy will be is yet to be seen, but the fear is that giving partial immunity could let vaccine resistant strains emerge.

UK infection numbers are fairly stable as of today, but not declining despite the continuing lockdown. Probably due to schools having been sent back. They appear to be gambling that while young people may get infected, the number of serious cases is quite small. Though this logic didn't help back at the end of 2020 when infection numbers went rocketing as schoolkids brought the virus home to parents, who took it into workplaces.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cp...mar-nc-002.png

That's how my sister in law caught it - she works in a school. She was fine while the schools were on hold but within a couple of weeks of them going back she got it - and still has long covid issues.

It's early days yet for the viral mutation problem but there is some evidence to show that the virus may be constrained in what viable mutations are possible. The same relatively small number of convergent evolution changes seem to be showing up again and again. If that pans out it may make the vaccine manufacturers future life a little easier. Popular science article on the subject via the link below if you're interested -

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...riable-so-far/

Cases vs Hospital Admissions vs Deaths
 

The statistics over the last few months have been that about 1 in ten of all new cases end up in hospital, and about one in three of those die. A sobering fact.

I wanted to see whether it was possible to measure the effect of the vaccine, so I took the 7-day rolling averages (smoothed) data for new cases, hospital admissions and deaths and plotted them. This didn't help much as the figures were so disparate, so I divided all the case figures by 21 and all the admissions by 2.5. In this way the start position of cases and admissions at the beginning of February was roughly level with the 1,150 deaths per day.

What you can see from the chart is that the blue cases line has reduced nicely due to a mix of lockdown and vaccinations, but the orange admissions line has reduced even more, and the grey deaths line more again. By measuring the difference between the blue (258) and grey (74) lines at the 25 March one might propose that the vaccine is currently saving 184 lives per day, or to put it another way, over 70% of deaths are being prevented.

It takes 2-3 weeks for the vaccine to become really effective and the effect of the vaccine on death rates will increase dramatically over the next couple of months as increasing numbers of the population are vaccinated.

I will admit this chart is REALLY crude as what I should have done is to factor in the typically ten day gap between reported new cases and admissions, and then the typically twenty days to death. But it was enough to satisfy my curiosity about the effectiveness of the vaccine.

Vaccine efficiency time line INFO direct from Astra Zeneca
 

I was told info below by Astra Zeneca this morning when I telephoned them with regards to the efficiency of the vaccine AFTER you have had your FIRST injection

If you have your SECOND shot of the AZ vaccine:

• at < 6 weeks from the first injection then it offers 55.1% efficiency
• at between 6 and 8 weeks from the first shot then 59.7%
• from 9 to 11 weeks from the first shot then 72.3%
• At > 12 weeks from the first shot then 80%

If anyone would like to call them as well their number is: 0800 783 0033 option 8
Disclaimer:
I am not a medical professional- just a glad recipient of this vaccine and passing the info on- make of it what you will

Interesting statistics and there seems little doubt that a longer interval is positive, which is what many medical professionals said would be the case.

I did read the study in the Lancet and didn't quite understand why the efficacy of a second dose is only 55.1% when the efficacy of a single dose is 76%.

Also there's a load of variables discussed, "Important study limitations include the fact that these studies were not prospectively designed to establish whether vaccine efficacy would differ by dose interval; therefore, these post-hoc exploratory findings could be biased. Other limitations are that participants were not randomised to dosing interval, only one of the four trials was double-blind, and the single-dose recipients were self-selected. Furthermore, baseline characteristics between the single-dose and two-dose cohorts were substantially different, with an older median age, higher proportion of men and non-white participants, and a smaller proportion of health or social care workers in the two-dose cohort than in the single-dose cohort."

One of the criticisms of the Astrazeneca approval submissions is their somewhat random way of carrying out clinical trials, and it's difficult to ascertain reliable data.

conjectures about this vaccine are many and wide.
 

I personally prefer to speak to the manufacturer direct-
As I said in my previous post:
"If anyone would like to call them as well their number is: 0800 783 0033 option 8
Disclaimer:
I am not a medical professional- just a glad recipient of this vaccine and passing the info on- make of it what you will"


All it takes is a free telephone call. I've even provided the A.Z number...

The difference in efficacy of single and second dose only depends in the numbers of participating people and the control group.

By statistical reasons you can`t break down the numbers to compare the results one to one between first and second shot groups. These numbers are imho hidden in the study of your link in brackets behind the percentage value but without full text version I cannot analize and explain.

This videos explains why you can`t compare vaccines only by percentages. It all depend on the circumstances of the study and their (different!) numbers of vaccinated people and of the control group.

https://youtu.be/K3odScka55A

hth

I had the first AZ vax two weeks ago. Second jab scheduled for mid June (three months apart). No issues - bit of a sore arm, dull head for a day, bit tired for another day. Some of us who are "more mature" remember children at school who had Polio as a youngster. The vaccine and booster were later administered at schools. It is standard for all children these days. (BBC radio says (last month) polio is only in Pakistan and Bangladesh these days)

In the mid 70's I travelled throughout UK, all Europe and some communist countries in a old VW (LHD) sedan I bought in UK. (was half tempted to sell the car and buy a motorcycle in Holland - that is another story - never thought of shipping my bike).

In the mid seventies there was no internet, no GPS and no mobile phones (paper maps were very detailed). Crossing into most countries was interesting - as well as passport and vehicle insurance check it was often necessary to produce a small yellow folder detailing the vaccinations you have had. (After this was done it was then off to change currency).

Things are a bit easier these days which is a good thing

Proof of vaccination is today is achieved by a secure personal log into to an Government register.

Keen to minimise the virus so we can all get travelling again!

I don’t know where this “vaccination certificates have always been required” comes from. Proof of yellow fever vaccination, only, is required for about 18 sub Sarahan African countries, and for some countries if coming from a yellow fever area.

Also there is no real comparison between yellow fever, which has a risk of death or disability of about 1 in 8, of anyone that contracts it, young or old, current illness or not.
CDC infection fatality rate for Covid is .2%, by comparison, the average age of the deceased is over 80 with at least 2 other life threatening conditions.

Also no comparison with the vaccines, the yellow fever vaccine may give lifelong immunity and is tried and tested, whereas we are being told the Covid vaccines are good for a few months only, and (and there is no disputing this) none of the clinical trials finish until 2023 at earliest. They are being administered under emergency legislation and with the Pharma companies legally exempted from compensation claims.

And nowhere (apart from now Israel) requires a proof of health for anything other than travel; to create a health apartheid system is clearly wrong and anyone who thinks it will stop there, or ever go away, needs to read some history books.

I would definitely have a yellow fever vaccine, required or not, if travelling to a risk area. I am currently vaccinated for rabies, tbe, hep a and b, tetanus, typhoid and probably some I’ve forgotten, as a result of travel to countries where those diseases are a risk. So I’m not “anti vax” (stupid and lazy label) but no one should be forced to have a health intervention they don’t want or need.

I have travelled extensively and have never had to show proof of vaccination, since DRC isn’t high on my list of places to go, so saying this is the same as needing proof of health to go to France or the pub is nonsense.

Oh, and I see the MHRA is about to recommend against the AZ vaccine for the under 30’s due to risk if ADR’s, and so I genuinely hope everyone who has had it is OK, and the government doesn’t end up paying millions as compensation in the same way they are currently doing with the Pandemrix claims.


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There are a number of reasons why I suspect that it will be likely that COVID-19 vaccination certificates will become the norm in many parts of the world.

The transmissability of the disease person-to-person is far higher for COVID-19 than it is for Yellow Fever and whilst the fatality rate is lower it is possibly for the disease to rip through a community very quickly infecting many people. So whilst the fatality rate is a little lower than Yellow Fever depending on your age group and where you are being treated far more people infected and so more people die.

It is an easy, cheap fix to ensure that people coming in are less likely to be bringing in the virus - why wouldn't you take an easy option?

The duration of the immunity that is offered is unknown at thsi is point but the duration of similar vaccines is around 18 months - the expectation is that the COVID-19 vaccine will follow a similar timeline for efficacy. This may mean that we will all have to have a routine vaccination to boost the levels and to introduce immunity for new strains as they emerge.

As for forcing people, well when you visit a country you have to play by their rules and it may be that they say "no vaccination, no entry". No one is forcing you to go to that country, it is your choice. Whether that country is France or the DRC is irrelevant, it is their rules. It may be that the government stipulate that requirement for pubs / restaurants for a period of time - given a choice between limited opening for those that have had the vaccine or closed completely I will go for the partial opening.

As regards the stopping of giving the AZ vaccine to under 30s well our middle child (21 years old) has had her first dose as she is classified as extremely vulnerable (she has a dodgy immune system but this vaccine is OK for her - not all are) and she will be bhaving the second dose as planned. The highest risk for her is if she gets COVID - as the risk of the clot is lower then she will minimise the overall risk by getting the vaccine.

I had my first Pfizer shot 3 weeks ago, zero side effects, no discomfort, arm wasn't even sore. Getting my second shot today, glad to have it done.

I've been fortunate. My wife was ill with Covid last March for over 6 weeks and I didn't contract it (unless I was totally asymtomatic) and I even tested afterwards for no antibodies.

Looking forward to a motorhome road trip, with motorcycle in tow, from Utah to Virginia soon to visit my 84 year old mom. :-)

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Our youngest was meant to be getting his first jab the other day but it was cancelled due to a lack of vaccines and has been rescheduled for next Friday. He is getting it relatively early as his sister is classed as clinically vulnerable.

There seems to be a significant number of younger people that are planning on not having the vaccine as if “only kills older people”. A particularly callous viewpoint as well as inaccurate. The view others have taken is that they don’t want to risk getting a blood clot when they, if they are female, ignore the higher risk of getting a blood clots from they go onto the pill. it is all about risk perception.

On the other hand I know of people in their sixties and seventies that have decided against having it because they are in good health and they consider themselves too fit to be affected. Again, inaccurate.

I had my first AZ jab on Friday (age 54) felt a little crap the next day but soon recovered. :D

To me getting vaccinated is a no brainer, anti vaxxers, anti maskers, 5G towers, QAnon what`s next? idiots.

Mezo.

It seems to me that there is a great deal of muddled thinking going on around this issue.

If a person takes the vaccine then they are protected from infection and the health issues that the virus causes.

Therefore unvaccinated people pose no health threat to the vaccinated and it should be irrelevant to the vaccinated what the unvaccinated choose to do.

Consequently, an infected and contagious unvaccinated person can only be a potential health threat to another unvaccinated person or people.

If the above statements are to accepted as correct then there is no need for anyone to know who is vaccinated or who is not and as such "Vaccine Passports" are unnecessary.

I agree with Madbiker.

However, I'm getting my vaccination tomorrow.

Quite honestly, I don't want it. And I'm having it begrudgingly.

Because If I don't then I'm going to be discriminated against. Forced into paying hundreds of pounds for tests to travel or not be allowed to travel at all. Banned from sporting events or cruise ships etc. Obscene.

And in the U.K, they're putting the 'Covid Passport' into the NHS App. So really we're being digitally Identified and restricted. Another level of tracking and control.

It really is a forced vaccination program and a massive step in the wrong direction.

I'm not an antivaxer. I've had countless jabs. But they have been through choice. And a measured risk that I took myself. Being forced into a medical procedure to have the same human rights as others is illegal and I do believe, un-necessary.

Our lives will now be ruled and exploited by these new passports for god knows how long. Forever probably.

All for a virus that is dangerous to only 0.05% of the population. Knowing someone who's died of Covid is dinner party chat these days.

I know more people who have died from falling off ladders than of Covid.

The vaccine was NOT designed to stop you getting infected or being infectious. What it was designed to do was to significantly reduce the likelihood of you becoming very ill / dying from COVID. As it happens the vaccines have also reduced the likelihood of you getting COVID and reduced the potential for you to pass the virus on - by they have not eliminated the risk entirely. So even when you have had the vaccine you should still wear a mask as that reduces the risk of spread if you are contagious and it has a beneficial effect of protecting you to some extent as well. Wearing the mask properly remains important.

As regards vaccines some people cannot have vaccinations due to theirmedical conditions - my daughter has to be careful about the types of vaccine she has - for instance she can’t have a “live” vaccine - fortunately all of the COVID vaccines are ok for her - however if she were to get COVID then her prospects would not be great as she has a compromised immune system so would have difficulty fighting the virus. So to all those people out there that have had their vaccinations, a thank you from those that cannot have the vaccine - you are helping to protect them as well.

If illegal, I'd sure be interested in hearing about the specific laws which make it so. Clearly, any country with control over its own borders can require any vaccine it deems necessary. You and I both carried yellow fever cards in South America, right? At work I've been required to have a pertussis vaccine during outbreaks. Schools here routinely require measles vaccines. etc.

And I know more people who've died from COVID--and WAY more who've gotten sick--than of yellow fever. So what's your point? That your personal experience is sufficiently central to dictate policy worldwide? Hard to see the logic in that.

There may be valid reasons to not want--or to complain bitterly about--vaccine requirements, but these are not them.

True enough.

[snip]

Even if I accepted this as true--it's not--there are real problems with this approach. In the U.K., for example, only 23% of the population is fully vaccinated (per New York Times, link below). In the USA, 32%. Germany, 8%, Spain 10%. That means that from 68% to 92% of populations of those countries is NOT fully vaccinated, which in turn means that from 68% to 92% of potential travelers are not fully vaccinated.

In other words, unvaccinated travelers pose a risk to the vast majority of residents wherever they go, anywhere in the world, with the notable exceptions of Seychelles and Israel. Even there, rates of vaccination are only 61% and 56% respectively.

This alone would justify ALL countries taking measures to protect their residents from travelers. Those measures might reasonably include travel bans, vaccine passports, COVID testing, and more.

This does not follow at all, for the reasons I've given (and for the many I haven't bothered with, some of which are addressed by Jay_Benson above).

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-tracker.html This may be protected by a paywall, but similar sources are easily found.

Jay Benson

Your response to my post clearly illustrates the muddled thinking that I previously referred to.

By definition a vaccine is a preventative medical procedure designed to provide immunity from infection and thereby prevent transmission of the virus or bacteria causing the disease.

If as you allege this "Vaccine" does not do provide immunity from infection then it is not nor can it be a vaccine. It must be something other than a vaccine and not treated as a vaccine.

With regard to some people being unable to take vaccines. Such people are in the same position as other people who have extreme allergies or who are unable to take certain medications..

The fact that a person cannot take a vaccine or has an extreme allergy to a substance is an individual health issue and it is up to them to take appropriate measures to ensure their own health.

I will repeat. I am not an anti-vaxer. But I am pro-choice. I didn't HAVE to get a yellow fever certificate for Brazil because I didn't have to go there. It was a holiday. And I was never asked to show it anyway.

Being imprisoned and segregated for the rest of my life because I won't take an untested and arguably unnecessary vaccine is VERY different. It's nothing but apartheid.

If I didn't have a measles jab or a flu shot do you agree that I should be quarantined from society for the rest of my life ?

However, it's not the vaccine I'm really bothered about. Because, like I'll say for a third time, I'm not an anti-vaxer. Although I am sceptical of how effective and safe these vaccines are. Considering the manufacturers are making obscene wealth and are not liable for any side effects.

I am EXTREMELY against being forced to show digital identification and potentially being "signed in and out out" of every public place I go to with an App.. It's an obscene attack against my privacy and freedom.

The U.K has said that it could bring in the right for all public places to ask for "Covid status" to allow entrance. And in the future, it could make that law. And automatic. Covid is here to stay. Vaccines are going to be annual for the foreseeable future and that means so will the tracking and control.

My fear is that the power to combat a pandemic is being abused to control our freedom.

What has already happened in the name of "National emergency" in the U.K is disgusting. The Government has pretty much made itself unaccountable for anything. And that includes syphoning off vast amounts of cash to their business associates.

My argument from the very beginning of this pandemic remains.

If only 1% of the population are at serious risk of Covid, why does the other 99% have to be locked down, vaccinated and controlled ?

Of course the answer is "To protect the health service" who can't treat 1% of the population all at once. But now a vaccine is out there and the health services are no longer at risk in many places, I don't see a legitimate reason for this overwhelming erosion of our liberties.

But people who choose not to get vaccinated are breeding grounds for mutations (which is happening right now) and the vaccines that are being administered right now may be of no use in fighting future variants.

And guess what happens then? yep were back to square one & all this work, money & lives lost will be for nothing. doh

Mezo.

Eh? Are you being threatened with imprisonment and apartheid? Really?

I’m pretty sure you’re being threatened, if anything, with not being able to travel freely (see yellow fever, sometimes cholera, for a while SARS), engage in certain activities (see measles, as mentioned, and other diseases I’m too lazy to look up), or have certain jobs (see pertussis, at least in the USA, and TB). This is not even news—it’s accepted, commonplace, and not least, effective public health policy.

All of the “for the rest of my life” stuff is just silly. Comparing it to apartheid—a violent abuse of political, military and economic power which dehumanized certain races of people to the immense benefit of certain other races—is beyond silly into the realm of delusion. It shouldn’t be difficult to make this case without such extravagant claims. More effective, too.

If you really are being threatened with imprisonment, starvation, torture, substandard housing, sub-human wages, and pass laws, I’ll formally admit I was wrong.

That aside, death rates hover between 1.5 and 2 percent, but ICU hospitalization rates are far higher, as are debilitating, long-term health effects on people who did and didn’t need hospitalization. This is not a disease with which you either die or get off scott-free.

So you’re not anti-vaccination necessarily. And I’m not defending every measure being taken, even in my own country. But distorting facts, cherry-picking statistics, and comparing personal discomforts to some of history’s worst geopolitical abuses really doesn’t advance the discussion.

That’s what it looks like from The Land Which Elected Donald Trump.

Mark

I finally have an appointment to go get my first shot the day after tomorrow, and that can't be fast enough.

I don't claim to be a statistician, but I took a couple of semesters of stats in university. It's all just a numbers game. I've crunched the numbers, and even if they give me AstraZeneca, I figure the likelihood of COVID killing me is at least 100 times greater than any threat of blood clots or other vaccine reactions.

"University of Oxford said people are 8 to 19 times more likely to develop blood clots from COVID-19 than one of the Pfzier-BioNTech, Moderna and AstraZeneca vaccines. So why are people spooked by the tiny numbers of those who did develop clots?"

When i read up last week before my jab it was only 0.007% of people who had had the AZ jab had side effects.

Here in Australia 30,000 people anally get blood clots (its 900,000 in the USA i think?) but they don`t mention that on the news do they, of course not they wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of a sensational news story that then goes viral on social media.

Mezo.

But that is exactly what you are doing !! Cherry picking distorted media facts or short range statistics which are so wildly inaccurate and change depending on which expert you listen to on the day. Even Governments have been forced into admitting that they don't really have an idea. But 'Project fear' has historically been the best way to get people to do as their told.

In the U.K for example, ANYONE who dies with 28 days of a Covid test is said to die of Covid. Even if they died of any other terminal disease. Even if they were in a car accident FFS !!

And that's how it looks like for you. I don't believe you speak for your entire nation. No offence meant.

Apartheid is any type of segregation or discrimination. I'm not comparing Covid to racism.

Apartheid is an Afrikaans word meaning "separateness", or "the state of being apart", literally "apart-hood" (from Afrikaans "-heid").

I have no desire to get into a 'Covid' debate with anyone. I am not a covid denier or an anti-vaxer. I am against corrupt Governments abusing their power and destroying civil liberties (Which are so hard to gain but so easy to dismantle) under the guise of protecting their nation. Do you really believe our 'Politicians' really care if you die or not. They're owned. They don't work for the people. They work for themselves or whoever else lines their pockets or promises them glory.

If you are vaccinated then you should have no fear from those who are not.

We don't lock up and segregate those who haven't had vaccines for the COUNTLESS other contagious and dangerous viruses which have been lapping the world since the beginning of time.

Guns kill far more people in the USA than Covid ever could. But try bringing in a law that denies anyone who owns a firearm from entering a coffee shop, cinema or mall. Imagine if you had to tell shop or bar that you owned a gun and then had to be searched at the door to prove you didn't have it with you.

Do you want to live in a world where you have to check in to your local coffee shop with a digital ID ? To have to show ID in every public place ?. It's an orwellian nightmare. With a button press on a keyboard by a trigger happy official, you could be kicked out of society.

But for those who make obscene amounts of money from data harvesting, fear and control, it's a dream. And they're the ones who are sponsoring and lobbying our Governments. Don't get me started on Pharmaceutical companies whose entire business model is to keep people as sick as possible for as long as possible. They put a price on life and death. It's vile.

I'm still going to get my vaccine this morning. But I feel like I have a gun to my head.

I understand my post is somewhat of a rant. And I'd like to add that I do respect and appreciate your opinion.

Awww Ted. Guns? Data harvesting? Pharmaceutical companies trying to keep you sick for as long as possible? Sorry, but we're no longer addressing the same subject. If you'd like to tell me what statistics I've got wrong (and where to find the correct ones), I'll listen--otherwise, too many generalizations and too far-flung.

As for Apartheid, I'll accept the Britannica definition: https://www.britannica.com/topic/apartheid . I've never been treated this way, and neither have you. Don't play victim.

Have at it.

Mark

Yours doesn't, USA`s old one didn't either, but my mine does. :thumbup1: :palm:

Mezo.

I apologise for making your argument irrelevant with comparatives or broadening the question.

If you want information, try google...It's all out there.

I'm not going to have a petty argument about dictionary definitions. Oxford vs Britannica blaah blaah.

If a section of society is segregated or discriminated against due their "Vaccine status" for basic liberties such as freedom of movement in their own country then I can't see it being called anything else. Even the Church of England has called it the Covid Apartheid. The relevance is in the context, not the wording.

I've just had my jab. And for the tenth time, I'm not an antivaxer. I'm anti-apartheid. I will not ban anyone from my workshop because they haven't had a vaccine. I didn't before my jab, nor will I now.

If you are vaccinated and if you understand what a vaccine is, then you will have no risk from those who have not. There is no logic or reason for domestic covid passports.

So I ask again, why don't we do the same for every other contagious virus ? Influenza kills a lot of people. We don't force people into having a vaccine for flu. Or ban those who haven't from travel and bars.

Look at the bigger picture. And have at it....

Now I have to get back to work. Why do I get sucked into time wasting covid threads. They're worse than hard vs soft luggage threads.

Amen to that (a without prejudice reply :rofl:)

Here you are arguing for my exact point. If someone, whether they are UK citizen, resident, or traveller is part of 77 percent of unvaccinated in the UK that person poses the same risk to the population. Whether a person travels or not is immaterial.

As you noticed by quoting it, I specifically used the term "If all the above statements are accepted to be correct". Therefore if you have an issue with accepting this as true, then you should have addressed that point rather than just stating that it is wrong.

Once again muddled thinking.

Vaccines mutate when they are put under pressure to evolve.

The primary reason for this process to occur is through vaccination. As the vaccine starts to eradicate the virus it must change or die.

The notion that unvaccinated people are responsible for mutating viruses shows a lack of understanding about how the human immune system functions.

I fully agree to *ted*

Unfortunately it gets harder to even discuss that open minded.. :rolleyes2:

Surfy

The first definition I came across for a vaccine is:

Vaccines by definition are biological agents that elicit an immune response to a specific antigen derived from an infectious disease-causing pathogen

- https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=vaccine+definition+biology[INDENT]

They do not claim to offer immunity. The immune response that the COVID vaccine was designed to get is one that reduces the hospitalisation and death rates. As I said before they happen to reduce the infection and transmisability rates as well as the designed benefits.

That you assign the definition that it provides immunity is your muddled thinking. Granted in many cases it is the outcome, but not in all cases.
Why, thanks for your support - I hope that you don't fall into one of those categories either now or in the future because it is not much fun.

The reality is that most of those that can't take some vaccines / medication have been isolating since March last year and the rest of their household have had to take measures beyond the norm. Many older people have done similarly. There is a cost for the individuals in terms of mental health, particularly those that live alone and this will have an impact of the rest of society in at least financial terms - so this is a societal problem and we can all help by getting the vaccine if we can, wearing masks properly etc.

Sadly, this is also wrong. Viruses mutate whether under pressure or not. They tend to mutate at a steady rate varying by the stabillity of their genome - the virus genome is far less stable than ours - think of it as being closer aligned to the Haggunenon*. Have a read in the Metro they give a bit of background - https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/04/covid-uk-why-do-viruses-mutate-14017735/

The concern about large numbers of people being unvaccinated is that that tends to mean that there will be more people that have the full blown virus and as they tend to be have a higher viral load when they get the virus than those that have been vaccinated but have caught the virus anyway. It is this higher viral load that create more opportunities for the virus to mutate - more virus particles so more that may mutate. For someone that is vaccinated there have fewer virus particles in their system so fewer opportunities for the virus to mutate.

Added to that the evidence that those that have been vaccinated but have caught the virus are less likely to transmit the virus means that even if there is a mutation then it is less likely to be passed on.

At the end of the day the vaccines reduce the hospitalisation and death rates as they were designed to do. They also reduce the chances of catching the virus and the chances of passing it on. The way it does this is by training the body to recognise the prescence of virus particles and to then quickly swamp them with antibodies so that they don't cause a significant issue in the vast majority of cases - the body is able to generate the antibodies quickly as it has already done this once with the first and second doses of the vaccine - i.e. it knows the formula.

* - https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Haggunenons

Jay Benson

The definition you quoted indicated that the purpose of a vaccine was to promote an immune response.

Since the purpose of the human immune system is to promote an immune response thereby providing immunity from further infection, you are arguing my exact point.

I stated that the "primary" reason for pressure to cause virus evolution was through vaccination. I did not say every reason to cause pressure for virus evolution was through vaccination.

If you wish to read the opinion of a world renown virologist on this particular point then you can find his writings here.

https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/

A quick search reveals some interesting commentary on Dr Van Den Bossche

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/co...vanden-bossche

and https://vaxopedia.org/2021/03/14/who...anden-bossche/ provides these insightful comments

"You probably haven’t heard of Geert Vanden Bossche, Unless you run in anti-vaccine circles…"

"Should we stop vaccinating people in the middle of a pandemic that has already killed over 500,000 people in the United States alone on the word of someone who is board certified in Veterinary Virology, Microbiology and Animal Hygiene and hasn’t published a research paper since 1995?"

Make of it what you willdoh

I'm amazed that even after 15 months people still can't grasp the basic issues with COVID, the pandemic, lockdowns and vaccinations.

The current situation in India should be all you need to know about how devastating the virus can be, if left unchecked. It may not be the most deadly disease in the world but its the speed and impact it causes that overwhelm health services that goes on to result in people dying in the streets waiting for medical help.

Totally fascinating: I hear several posters proving my points, although they clearly think otherwise. They apparently hear me proving their points. Throw in a couple of arguments about defining terms, one or two more about which authoritative voices can be trusted, and a lot of verbiage gets posted without anyone changing their minds.

I've always believed in our ability to learn from each other, but I've been forced to conclude that my confidence was, at best, misplaced. I hope we all emerge at some point from the current pandemic with intact lives, relationships, pastimes, and critical thinking abilities.

I feel immense sadness for those in the world not so well-favored as we are.

Mark

I've now - quite willingly and happily - had my second Astra Zenica jab, but accept that anyone and everyone should have the absolute right to refuse a vaccination. You're more than welcome to accept a higher risk of infection and potentially more serious consequences from such infection rather than accept the risk that taking the vaccine might pose; or indeed if you perceive that taking the vaccine might infringe upon your civil liberties, then no problem, 'just say no'.
As ever (though usually overlooked) all such 'rights' come with associated 'responsibilities' and in the case of Covid-19, that responsibility is that you should keep your choice to yourself and not impose it upon others. Your own country can't throw you out, but should others not wish you to enter their's, or businesses both home and abroad wish to exclude you from their premises, that's just good sense from both a public safety and economic standpoint. To claim it to be 'discrimination' is no less ludicrous than my saying the same about not being allowed to ride my motorbike in pedestrian areas, or ride a bicycle along a motorway

One of the things that's gone unremarked (as far as I've seen anyway) about this outbreak is that it's the first major outbreak - ever - that the human race has tried to tackle head on. If you look back at major disease outbreaks in the past the best we've been able to do is offer palliative care for the sick and avoidance advice for the uninfected. At times this has amounted to no more than 'pray to the Lord' for the sick and 'run for the hills' for the healthy. We had neither the knowledge or the technology to do anything about the Black Death back in the 1350's and even as recently as the Spanish flu outbreak in 1918 the causative agent was unknown.

I wonder what the death toll would have been if Covid had spread though the world of even 50yrs ago. Back at the start of the outbreak 15 months ago there were serious academic predictions of 500,000 deaths in the UK and a disease that would become endemic in the population. By past standards 15 months is an unbelievably quick timescale to have got some sort of control over it. It's more by luck than anything that it came along at a time when we can - just - do more than watch it cut a swathe through the over 50's and the vulnerable.

Even a decade ago I doubt we'd have been able to produce any sort of vaccine in the timescale these ones have taken so it's probably not surprising there's been unforeseen consequences - social and otherwise - resulting from its rapid deployment. You'd have to be a politician to know whether there's an intentional hidden agenda riding in on the coat tails of the vaccine program (or whether they'll just take advantage /claim credit for any social changes that naturally occur) but so far just about all of the scare stories about microchips / 5G etc seem to have withered away. Whether the restrictions / economic upsets etc were worth it is I suspect something that'll be argued over for years but all I can say is that as someone in the age determined firing line for the virus I've been a huge beneficiary. If you're much younger, less likely to suffer health consequences but now out of work as a consequence of the changes you may have a different opinion.

In this instance I don't think I'll take any advice from an anti vaxer, populist vet:innocent:
But I'll pass his advice on to my cat:thumbup1:

Yikes! Sounds painful!

The facts shows us, that there was severall "major incidents" in History where some scientist did see a worst case szenario comming

Birdflu
Swine flu
Sars
BSE

Today we have covid.

In Switzerland you can see that People at a age of 65 can pass away about corona. It is a 3% chance. It is a 6% change if you are over 80 years.
Yes, there are some joungers, there are long covid issues.

There is a fear, that covid could get more dangerous.

We have different vaccinations, where there is a "no" risk.

But with this "no risk" severall young people did pass away, severall people get serious sick.

We know, that without a wistleblower in isreal, we woulndt know about the pfizer vaccination risk issue. 1 of 20`000 young Person between 18-30 years is not nothing.

https://fortune.com/2021/04/27/israe...fizer-vaccine/

https://www.kardiologie.org/covid-19...ofakt/19005084

So we joungsters have today to decide which risk is higher.

Not easy.

- The maybe fear about the corona virus develops worse
- the real fear of healthy issues because of the vaccination

Personally I would vaccinate with a age of 80 without thinking about.

I would not vaccinate with an age below of 40. Why I should risk my health at this stage? The risk of getting an heavy impact on covid is very very tiny. Smaller than the impact risk on the vaccination.

What do we all do between? bier

In Switzerland it is probably winter till I can get a vaccination with my age. I will decide at this time. I`m happy that a lot of other is trying them in front of me. Because I can calculate the risk better in some months.

About 21% of the people in switzerland already had covid: https://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/schwe...die-ld.2093661

Surfy

First of all, the risk from contracting Covid is still much higher than the risk from getting the vaccine.

But what makes me really want to give up on humanity is the skewed focus that people have when it comes to public health. Let me try to sum up the most important point in this "debate":

IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU!

You don't wear a mask to avoid getting Covid . You wear it to decrease the chance of transmitting the virus to others in case you are infected. So when you decline wearing a mask in a public space you share with me, you're not primarily taking a risk on YOUR behalf, you're taking in on MY behalf. And frankly, I don't trust you to be competent enough to do that. So, to make it easier, WE, as a society, make mask wearing rules that take away your ability to take risks on behalf of everyone you meet. Forcing you to wear a mask in a shop is not about protecting YOU, it is about protecting EVERYONE ELSE from the statistically significant risk you pose.

It's the same with vaccines. Vaccines don't work by completely protecting the individual against infection or disease. No vaccine is 100% effective. They work by creating herd immunity, stopping the spread of the virus through a population. You don’t take the vaccine to protect yourself, you take it to protect others. If everyone had already had the opportunity to take the vaccine (which is not true due to medical reasons and supply shortages) and the effectiveness of the vaccine was 100%, it would be perfectly OK to just take the risk on your own behalf. But it isn’t. Not getting vaccinated means you’re putting everyone who cannot take the vaccine due to medical reasons and everyone who hasn’t yet been given the opportunity at risk. Focusing on your own freedom in that case seems pretty selfish to me. Yeah, you should have that freedom as long as you don’t put others at risk. But once you interact with others you are part of society, and if you reject taking basic measures to protect public health, the risk you pose outweighs the rights you claim to have to put everyone else at risk.

Through this pandemic we've all heard about the R-number, i.e. the number of people each infected person infects. This varies with a number of factors. In western societies it is approximately 4.5 unless measures are taken. In India the R-number is probably still less than 2 at the moment (obviously the whole statistics system has broken down), with the consequences being obvious. New variants may have higher R-numbers, which is the best evolutionary selector.

As it is unlikely that we can completely remove the virus from the population, we need to reduce the R-number to effectively stop outbreaks from happening. We can do that by restricting the infection vectors by avoiding situations where infections can happen (social distancing), by reducing the chance of transmission (mask wearing etc), or by achieving herd immunity. For the more mathematically inclined, it can be (massively simplified) to Re = R*S*(1-P)*(1-I) where Re is effective R, R is the basic R of the virus, S is the social interaction compared to normal, P is the reduction of transmission through protective measures, I is the average immunity rate. So, to lower Re, we want low S and high P and I.

We all want to come back to a society with S=1 and P=0. That means that we need to build I up to the factor where R is low. This is where herd immunity comes in. As Covid is not massively contagious (luckily it is not measles!) this rate is estimated to be around 60-70% for the current strains. Newer strains could increase that. With children, those with weak health, and some other groups cannot be vaccinated at this point, it means that most of the rest of us will need to be vaccinated to reach herd immunity.

Following the same logic, another way to reduce Re while allowing for a more normal S and P is to create cohorts where I is high. This is where the vaccine passport comes in. If we can make sure that there is herd immunity in a room, we can skip our masks and have fun. But this means that we cannot allow unvaccinated people in. It is not about the rights of the unvaccinated, it’s about the right of the vaccinated to enjoy life with a risk they deem reasonable.

Again, the rule on public health measures, it is not about ME or YOU, it’s about US.

I was planning to write more on how our view on vaccines is a result of the privilege of not experiencing massive childhood mortality rates for more than a generation, but this post is too long already.

Nothing to do now but sit back and watch the show.

I`m too waiting. bier

I will add my notes in 5 years - I`m pretty shure that most of

"we have to go that way"

is obsolete and will be reflectet very critical by public media. We will ask us, at which time we did stop thinking by ourself.

And the media will again try to look what has happens - like they did after any recent "happening" - why they didnt was critical, why there was no discurs.

Guess it will be readable in articles like here:

https://en.ejo.ch/ethics-quality/fakes-in-journalism

It is not similar, not a lie itself. But we will see that the media/who/goverment did use scientists with a given mindset. And notbody did even talk with scientists with another point of view. No discurs itself. We will see that we did waste cash and time, with that habit. What did lead to actions who was wrong...

Surfy

I received the shot a couple of nights ago. No side effects (so far) other than a shoulder that feels like someone punched me in the arm hard.

The vaccine was Moderna, which surprised me, as almost everyone I know who has received a jab was given the Pfizer one. Apparently Moderna has had a hard time keeping to its commitments for shipments to Canada.

Apologies, but I do not at all understand what you are trying to convey. That a collective science community is wrong? That we are stupid to act a society to solve a common problem? That we are never right to listen to experts?

A common theme with "anti-establishment" debaters are that they never really make proper statements, but raise doubt by "just asking questions". I say that is not good enough. Any decent participant in a debate should state their opinion on the topic in question and their falsifiable reason for holding it. Otherwise there is no point in communicating.

A common theme with "anti-establishment" debaters are that they never really make proper statements, but raise doubt by "just asking questions". I say that is not good enough. Any decent participant in a debate should state their opinion on the topic in question and their falsifiable reason for holding it. Otherwise there is no point in communicating.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't waste my time getting into an online discussion with some people about this, look at one of the previous comments;

'Just sit back and enjoy the show' said another contributor on p4 of this thread, they are a waste of time, and I think that particular comment sums them up, pot stirrers.
Kind regards
James

Well as it says in my signature ""A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion" (public opinion being social media) :thumbdown:

Be this guy.

https://billmuehlenberg.com/wp-conte.../bethisguy.jpg

Mezo.

Now look at the man behind, talking to his neighbour (just above circled bloke's head)

'Hey, this bloke in front here, he's not saluting'

Neighbour - 'You're right, what the matter with him.'

< leans forward and taps him on the shoulder>

'Hey pal, why're you not saluting? You got a problem with saving our country? You not patriotic? You're not a foreigner are you, sneaking in here, taking jobs away from honest Englishmen. I didn't spend two years in the trenches just to give my country up to the likes of you.'

Circled man - 'No, I'm just here to hear what he has to say and make up my own mind'

'Make up your own mind! Who the hell do you think you are Mr la-de-da foreigner.' <Shouts out angrlly> 'Hey everyone, this foreigner here doesn't think Mr Mosley is talking sense. He thinks he knows better and we're just working class scum.

Next bloke along - 'Working class scum! I'll give 'im working class scum <pulls knife from pocket> ...

Just like Twitter really. :rofl:

DISCLAIMER: On reviewing the thread, I just realised that I probably have read the completely wrong context into Mezo's post, and attributed opinions to them that are probably incorrect. My apologies for this. If it is OK with Mezo, I'm leaving the post up, as I think the argument was worth making, even if Mezo was not be the right person to make it against. Mezo, message me if you want me to delete it.

In short, your argument is "ever listening to an authority is like being a nazi". I think it is prudent to start with pointing out that the movement against mask mandates and vaccines is riddled with nazis, so I don't really think you want to go there.

If you want, we can have a discussion around different types of authority and why it is different to listen to an authoritarian leader is different from assuming truth in the consensus of the science community. We can do that through power theories (e.g. French & Raven), paradigm theories (e.g. Kuhn) or whatever you want, but freedumb memes are not really a way for adults to discuss something that kills thousands of people every day in India alone.

I am vehemently against forcing anyone to do anything, as long as it does not affect the rest of society. More so than most people, I believe. I don't give a flying f*ck about your choices when it comes to drug use, speeding on a deserted highway, or the sex you choose to consent to. Your risks, your choices.

But your freedom ends where mine begins. When your actions put others in danger, they're not OK. If you drive a car intoxicated, speed on a street next to a school, or have sex with someone without telling them you have an STD, you are putting other people at risk. For a society to work, we cannot allow that. I am assuming we agree on this principle, if not, please tell me.

Public health decisions are based on risk analysis in the same way that speed limits are set next to schools. They are limiting the rights of each single individual to make it possible for every single individual to exercise their fundamental rights, such as the right to life. There are some warning signs to look out for, e.g. if a decision targets a specific group. It's therefore vital that we view the decisions made with a critical eye.

But to do that in an effective manner, we need to base our criticism on facts and proper analysis. Unfortunately, most of the criticism is NOT based on facts, and therefore it stops any sensible debate. This defeats the purpose of the criticism, and builds up a feeling among some that they are unfairly marginalised. It breeds conspiracy theories that take away the focus on the actual conspiracies. It creates fictional enemies that detract from the real ones. At this point, I think you may want to refer to the history on how Germany went from the very liberal Weimar state to the picture you used. Was that through rational debate, or through anti-establishment thinking and conspiracy theories?

So you see, I'm very much against accepting authoritarianism, and I happily resist. But I also know that to do so in a way that does not break society, I need to use facts, words, and arguments, not feelings, fear, and memes.

Finally, I would just like to point out that no-one stops you from living alone in a cabin in the forest without a vaccine. So, your freedom still exists where it does not intersect with other people's freedom. Most of us just don't want your rather simplistic understanding of your liberty to take away ours. In this case, my freedom includes the ability to safely go to a shop or restaurant without risking you infecting me.

The weather's nice, I'm gonna go out riding for a few hours, not speeding where there are kids playing on the road.

Ironically where most of the anti's for anything get the science/facts/whatever they blindly believe to be true in the face of overwhelming evidence its wrong doh

You hit the nail on the head in this and your previous post. Thank you for the reasoned response.
Unfortunately it's pointless.
It's hilarious how some complain that there's no room for reasoned debate, they're shut down by........who ever.
Well why would I engage with people spouting utter nonsense that they're unable or unwilling to corroborate?
Or they continually attempt to lay pathetic little traps by asking (what they claim to be) valid questions. In an over inflated intellectual ego trip.

There are three reasons to always engage in debate.

Research tells us that people who hold strong, but unfounded beliefs are most likely to change those by being informed by people they have a personal relationship with. This is why the less qualified family doctor has more sway than the researcher when it comes to informing people about their health, but less sway than friends and family. That in turn means that we need to arm those friends and family with good arguments to bring up in conversations.

We, as motorcyclists, are a quite close knit community. This means that we can influence each other, but more importantly, we can arm each other with good arguments to take out into our other social circles. The "sensible" arguments are less sticky than the emotional ones (see below), so we need to practice them whenever we can. So while I'm sure my rather arrogant style does not convince too many people, I hope that I can inspire those nicer than me.

Secondly, we may want to police our spaces to instigate change. This is how we're succeeding in fighting racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. When racist remarks can no longer be excused, people stop making them. They start self-policing, which in turn makes them question their attitudes. So policing our social spaces should always be with the goal that people start changing themselves.

The third reason is really perfectly meta in this discussion. In the 90s, Richard Dawkins, Susan Blackmore and some others launched the concept of the meme. While it now means something else, the original meme theory was that ideas work like viruses. They infect the brain, and mutate, evolve, and spread through evolutionary processes. Unfortunately, correctness is not the best selector, but compatibility with other existing memes (memeplexes), evocation of basic instincts and feelings, etc, are.

An example of a meme in this context is that vaccines contain dangerous (non-specific) stuff. The meme does not define what the stuff is, so seen from a rational angle, it should be rejected. But since it plays into our fear of being harmed by pollution (and fits very well with memes saying that organic produce is superior, etc) it easily takes root, and since it is simple in form, it is easy to transmit to others. It is an example of a harmful meme, or rather, a meme that is harmful to its host, while succeeding in its own transmission. Just like a virus that can kill you.

The memes building up the Q-anon conspiracy theory is a great example. They are compatible with some very strong existing memes like protecting children is good (a benign meme), white men are losing out (a harmful meme), etc. They build up a memeplex, where each meme is quite compatible with the whole, even if some of them may be mutually incompatible. And even if the meme that Clinton is raping babies in a basement that does not exist falls, the memeplex survives and readily accepts new memes.

Other examples of memeplexes are religions and cults, political views, cultural identity, etc. Figuring out which is good and which is bad can be left as an "exercise to the reader" - but in itself this is a morally neutral phenomenon.

Continuing this train of thought, we want to find out how we can avoid exposing ourselves to dangerous memes, and if we can vaccinate ourselves and others against memes. The exposure part is pretty obvious, but the meme vaccine is interesting. Why do we today reject memes that were previously strong? Examples are the right of men to rape women, violence as a righteous solution to most conflicts, etc. It's because we're infected by other memes that vaccinate us against the dangerous ones. So, in very complex thinking, hopefully our efforts to teach people to think properly around conspiracy theories etc can train their mental immune responses to resist the attractiveness of harmful memes.

So we trudge along, fighting the good fight, knowing that the only thing worse than making what seems like a futile effort is giving up. But we also know that what we're fighting for is a better world - or is that just a meme that has infected us? Damn...

"The third reason is really perfectly meta in this discussion. In the 90s, Richard Dawkins, Susan Blackmore and some others launched the concept of the meme. While it now means something else, the original meme theory was that ideas work like viruses. They infect the brain, and mutate, evolve, and spread through evolutionary processes. Unfortunately, correctness is not the best selector, but compatibility with other existing memes (memeplexes), evocation of basic instincts and feelings, etc, are."

Great explanation. I didn't know where it came from, but I absolutely recognise that:thumbup1:
Unfortunately (or maybe its an old age, no time for ridiculous stuff:innocent:) we tend to self select our acquaintances. I'd do my best not to fall in to this trap in the work environment. Selecting individuals who were of different character traits, who would challenge stuff. Didn't always work....some days it would come down to "f##k it. Just do it my way":rofl:

Again thanks for your posts. You're far more articulate and patient than myself :-)

That new AstraZenica Memevac will fix that. We'll be back to normal Neanderthal thinking just as soon as the full Twitter and Facebook volunteer trials are concluded and they get it distributed. 90% effective is the hope. The other one, the Pfizer anti meme SoulVac, doesn't seem to be as effective as it works by injecting you with an artificially produced morality meme designed to induce a degree of innate conscience. It seems that, after centuries of exposure in churches, so many of the population are already immune to its effects that herd immunity via a high R number may not be possible. All I can suggest in the meantime is to keep that thought mask on your keyboard. It doesn't prevent you from catching right-on thinking but it does help stop you spreading it to others.

Where it came from, well, that's still a mystery (a bit like the changing of the seasons or the tides of the sea :rolleyes2:). Some experts have suggested it might have jumped species (from women, one said, but he was dismissed as being sick already). Of more concern is LongMeme, where it takes over your life and you can't do anything at all without worrying yourself to a standstill that you're getting it wrong. So many sufferers unable to leave their house, take a step into the outside world, even open their mouth because of it. Sadly the vaccines won't help them (other than perhaps that unproven Chinese one SinoBootgrind) and the only available medications are of dubious provenance or banned outright. It's not my area of expertise though so I'm going to leave it to those who know about these things. Only thing I can say is thank goodness I'm not in the vulnerable demographic. If you're 12-35 these days this stuff spreads like wildfire.

At first I would like to thank you for your statement - sad to say that I don`t read such clear words often these times!

Maybe why I recognized as longer I am stuck in that pandemic situation that people, media, social media and politicians are loosing more and more the ability to debate. Means the ability to be open and stay in discussions by oppossing arguements for oppossing viewpoints to eachother while to hold clear defined discussion rules for the participants.

One reason for forcing this behavior is that today informations spread through social media are assessed to be more trustful than informations spread through other ways.

Another reason that drives a kind of social media peer pressure is that valueable or evident information was and still is too often hidden behind paywalls in the internet. Especialy in case of C19 this was and is a major reason why memes were exploding.

Let`s remember, when the pandemic startet and got the awareness of scientists from different disciplines worldwide they all really fast decided by mutual agreement to publish and share all upcoming knowledge to fight the desease effectivly and fast.

By this time press media active in the commercial internet was suddenly hit by a big dilemma because they realized that informations must be shared while they had to solve the issue of a permanent income through making informations available. Some press organs decided to publish this informations without a paywall but most didn`t. Meanwhile after 1,5 yrs being in the pandemic most paywalls are up again and memes are still fueled by this.

I think it doesn`t matter where you are living on the world, we all have been seperated by the availability informations. We are in 2 class information society, one can afford to pay the price of paywalls, the other cannot and believes they find truth in social media or in memes often spread there as truth.

P.S.
I knew about Susan Blackmore/Richard Dawkins and the theory of ideas that replicate themselves from brain to brain like a virus. And I remembered watching it at TED Talk :
https://www.ted.com/search?q=memes

As a species, have we really degenerated to the degree where we believe discredited internet "experts" rather than peer reviewed scientists? Do we really subscribe to conspiracy theories rather than evidence based science? Do we really need to don our tin foil hats rather than believe reason? Are we so degenerate that "it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter" is the prevalent mindset? Are we so selfish that "my rights" trump "my responsibilites"?

I would say that in some circles that would certainly appear true. There was one politician that stated during the UK referendum campaign that we don’t need experts anymore. The anti-vax lobby certainly seem to fit into “my rights trump my responsibilities” camp.

In part this is an outcome of social media and the computer systems that they use that create an echo chamber which just reinforces the beliefs of an individual - no contrary voices coming through to challenge the perceived orthodoxy prevalent in the echo chamber.

35 yrs ago I was in love with a girl. We seperated after a while and went our own ways for 15yrs. Than she contacted me through a business network and we got best friends. Saw here children growing up, supported her during her divorce and interduced her to her actual husband. She was one of the first of the persons I know who got C19 end of january 2020 and she hadn`t any kind of health problems because she felt like having a flu for some days.

That changed everything. She started joining facebook/telegramm groups and talking about strange theories about the virus. Told me about QANON, the chip of Bill Gates and a govermental vaccine for affectings peoples minds. She organized demonstrations and protests against our goverments and its measures like wearing masks, lockdowns, etc. All that crazy stuff you heard and read about worldwide.

I always tried to talk to her and to discuss with her. I send her a lot of pdfs and papers, incl. links to videos of interviews or statements. I wrote many emails to her. I always tried to be gentle and not to get aggressive. Sometimes I failed due to my emotions about her credulity and foolishness. She lavished me with with her proofs of pure wisdom and truth. She started stalking me digitally with this kind of messages.

In february 2021 I got on a point that I had to break tie. Because I realized that this will never be turned into conversation, a discussion about a deadly desease. I felt that we were living in seperated intellectual worlds and that the person who was one of my best friends has gone through a metamorphose. So I wrote a last email and explained my thoughts, my feelings and my sorrow for my decission. I told her from now on I will block any kind of contacting.

For a few of our species my answer to your questions is 5 x YES

That's a very sad story, Rapax. I'm sorry to hear that such a long term friendship ended like that.

This is so sad. On behalf of all sensible people, thank you for trying. Hopefully, you had at least some positive impact. But even more important; kudos for walking away before you got even more hurt. That takes strength.

@brclarke
@ridingviking

Thanks a lot for your words!

But i would like to tell a story about how the pandemic situation affected me and others the good way:

Before the actual situation I was training old people (70-92yrs) in using a smartphone. Doing a workshop every 4 weeks and its free of costs. Came to this accidentally trough a neighbor who did it before and asked me if I could help because he had accepted too many participants once.

So I got to know an 81yrs old women. She is nearly blind means she has a remaining sight of 15%. She is using her computer with help of a software based magnifier and a screen reader. I got asked by her if could help her with a computer problem.

I fixed it and I recognized what difficulties blind people have to conquer if they have less skills and understanding of a computer. I offered her a personal training which forced by the pandemic situation we made by help of remote desktop software.
Teached her for health security reasons in the times of high incidences how to do online banking, how to shop secure online, how to download, transfer and listen a podcast/audiobook on her mp3 player, how to make a birthday card from a picture and so on.
Found out also that she was running into trouble with her iphone and the voice over functions nearly after every IOS update. Trained her on a better use of the iphone and set up with her shortcuts to make her iphone life more comfortable. Showed her how an ipad can function as a portable computer and how she can listen to the daily newspaper on it.

From March 2020 on I "adopted" (by her demand for friends) another 5 blind people (76-88yrs). I act as their 24/7 helpdesk and I train them remotely in handling computers, iphone/ipads and every other issue they would like to do with these devices. I organized vaccine appointments for them because the german process to this is a little complex to stand for old people. Meanwhile we meet regulary on zoom to talk, to discuss and share their belongings.

In a zoom meeting I saw a bookshelf full of motorcycle literature. I asked about and the blind guy told me that he had owned a brandfree motorcycle repair shop which he started as a mecchanic in 1965. Since he is fully vaccinated I visited him and he showed me his 5 motorcycle collection in his garage. I felt in love with his 1985 BMW R80 HPN Adventure but we haven`t yet spoken about.... :)


So i got new valuable friends who share their life experience with me and who supported me in taking my decission of cutting off a long lasting friendship. I lost one friend which still hurts sometimes but I have won 5 new ones. I call them my Gang of Blinds and they filled up my life in the past months with awesome fun and satisfaction.

I`m looking for a good comparison of the vaccination. How often are they got used, how often problems happens. Can someone help me out?

Currently my favorite would be the spike protein way like Sputnik / Sinopharm (chinese) / Astrazeneca delivers. Too because the chinese did use it a lot - and - before their or other vaccinatons was certified. And the people in china did was able to go back to normal life very very early.

But if we read the news, there are many "we dont knows" about that way in the last two weeks, about all three vaccinations based on that technology.

Interresting read:

https://www.mdr.de/wissen/corona-imp...nik-v-100.html

Another article about:
https://www.dw.com/de/coronavirus-wi...ina/a-56361390

Would be nice to get data about - how often a vaccination was used, which was used more often, has the better data out of that.

Seems, like this spike protein way will not be used a lot in europe anymore - Astrazeneca's - just for people over 60 years. Does people over 60 has less impact on tromboses?

Back to mrna based vaccinatons like biontech:

https://www.infranken.de/ueberregion...ng-art-5199513

Seems that it is dangerous for people till 30 years - but a no risk for a higher age.

Does somebody has a good article about the different style of vaccinations and how many people did got them? I`m too interested in ivestigations about which kind of vaccination has the best protection for england/south africa/india versions of covid.

My Mam probably can choose the kind of vaccination in some weeks.

Surfy

Give it a few weeks and I'll be eligible for your course :(. How depressing is that. What's even worse is that most of my friends are of similar age. With a couple of exceptions most of them have only misty eyed reminiscences of motorcycles, regarding themselves as much too old. The older I get I can't believe how people convince thenselves they're 'past it' (whatever 'it' is). Since I hit 65 I keep getting bombarded with adverts for assisted living blocks of flats as somewhere to spend my 'golden years'. A few blocks have gone up round here - usually within zimmer frame distance of a supermarket, but I keep wondering how some of the other residents would take to me starting up a two stroke on a Sunday morning and filling the place with smoke :rofl:

I actually run an over 60's keep fit group locally (my fellow instructor is 81!) and it's interesting to see how different people respond to the more taxing exercises. Some push hard while others just coast, and it's nothing to do with their overall health level.

It was very sad to read your ex girlfriend story. I don't know what to say except I have experiences that parallel yours and it affects you at a very deep level. There's not a lot you can do beyond making the best you can of it. :(



We get the British Medical Journal every week (my wife is a member of the BMA) and I've been following the twists and turns of the various vaccines as they've been reported to the medical community over the last six months or so - since they became widely available. The big concern - since about February anyway - has been about blood clots and there's been quite a few articles about the differences between the various vaccines. The latest one I saw was about 3 weeks ago where a number of things were reported : 1. the risk of CVT (cerebral venous thrombosis) is '10 times' higher from catching Covid than from any of the vaccines. (in the ratio 39 : 4 for the Pfizer / Moderna RNA vaccine and 5 for the AstraZeneca). The numbers are incidents per million. 2. There is a second type of clotting issue with the AZ vaccine but there's no numbers given. 3. About 20% of people who get CVT from Covid die, with a similar mortality for CVT after the AZ vaccine (so overall about 1 person / million for the vaccine). There's no numbers for the Pfizer / Moderna vaccines.

There's a lot of info about how effective the various vaccines are but at the moment it's both complicated and confusing. (Very) roughly the Pfizer version boosts antibody levels faster than the AZ one but drops off faster as well - which is why you need the second shot sooner. They then give you similar 'protection' to actually having had Covid. The AZ vaccine has a slower 'rise' time but it lasted longer - hence the stretching out of the second dose interval in the UK. Quite why that should be the case I've not seen reported. There are reports of people contracting Covid after receiving vaccines but when investigated it seems that about 80% of them were incubating the virus at the time of vaccination.

Side effects between the two seem to vary. The commonest one with the Pfizer vaccine is a sore arm around the injection site lasting a few days. With the AZ vaccine its been a sort of 'low level' flu type symptom lasting a day or two and (in fewer people) a headache lasting some time. I had the AZ vaccine and had both of those - the headache lasted 10 days.

If there is a difference between the vaccines in how they work against the Covid variants that are popping up I've not seen it reported. Neither have I seen any reports (in the BMJ anyway) that the current vaccines are inneffective against any of the strains. It often takes longer to turn up in these journals though than it takes the newspapers to report it.

Because you postet german links, here is a link in german language to security protocolls for approved vaccines in germany

https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/dossi...html?cms_pos=5

Comparison of vaccines in english

https://www.biospace.com/article/com...accines/<br />

Data to this you find here:
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

No older people have equal risks as younger ones for thromboses.
But effectness of astra vaccine works better on older people than on younger which is the main reason for the prio group change in germany.

Remind: thromboses at astra are only sinus venous thrombosis.
Riskfactor is 2-15 cases per million.
Females are much higher affected than male because female sex hormons increase blood clotting much more than male sex hormons do.
There is allready therapy existing called HIT. it`s based on immunoglobulin or often called antibody therapy.

As longer your mum can securly wait as more evdience will be available for her decission.
Afaik all vaccine approved in germany will work for virus variants from england and south afrika.
Virus variant of india differs to the others through an addional protein spike (simply explained: a double spike protein on the cover of the virus which can connect easier to human body cells) Due to still too less evidental data from india, scientists are just working on this question.

For data of different style of vaccinations and how many people did got them, check 3rd link.

hth

Thanks for the detailed response @Rapax and @backofbeyond

It would be very very interesting, to get an analysis of the people who did get after vaccination:

- serious sickness
- did pass away

They are not so much people (Germany), if we look deeper in the PSI Rapport. If we additional would get the information about their specific health situation, that would help too. A healthy man with 200kg, or someone with drug abusing - could bring a wrong picture quickly..

The Website https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations is very powerful, also if I will have to do an research for china - many other countries are listened! Exactly what i was looking for!

Surfy

Call me old fashioned, but I like to get medical information from qualified medical sources rather than an overlanding forum :rolleyes2:

Of course if you want to find a repair shop in Madagan or details of the border crossing in Angola then here's the HuBB is a good place to ask:thumbup1:

(PS all medication carries a risk of side effects or bad reactions, its not something restricted to COVID vaccines)

When i had my AZ jab & i was the youngest person there (54) but i`m in the high risk group (heart disease) so vaccination was highly advised, i could have waited a few months for the Pfizer jab if i wanted (my choice) but decided to go with AZ.

Its less of a risk of thrombosis for me as i take anticoagulant medication anyhow (clopidogrel) but my mate Paul on the other hand has had previous strokes & he has to wait for the Pfizer jab to be safe, but his missus is having the AZ jab next week to protect Paul from infection.

I`m so glad to be residing in a country where the leaders listen to the health advice from the professionals & where the population listens & adheres to the governments advice & closing the borders to international tourists was the key factor, and the doors are staying shut until mid 2022.

Mezo.

I guess instead we could talk about all the overlanding we're doing.
Oh, wait...

Medicine is science. The main character of science is that evdience which is valid on monday can be invalid on wednesday. Medical evidence and treatments have never been carved in stone for eternity.

This you should always have in mind when you guess qualified medical sources are delivering the full proof about something. There is no final knownledge existing in medical science because it selfdevelops continously.

Which we all recognized in past 1,5 yrs. A pandemic startet with a unknown virus. The world developt knowledge about the virus, its variants and treatments including a couple of vaccines against it.

So before you judge and state a source like hubb isn`t able to share quailfied informations to interested people, you should have checked and proofed e.g. sources I offered in forms of links.

If you had done this than you had understood that my first link targets the federal instute for vaccines and biomedical drugs of Germany. That second link goes to a company which act since 1985 as a hub for careers in Life Science industry and offers news and information sources about. Third link goes to a Global Change Data Lab which is btw registered in England and Wales. It has long and higly ranked reputation since 2011 and the University of Oxford as a partner. This you can proof youself by reading 5-10 minutes on every link.

At last I see the HUBB as a very valuable information plattform which gives us users the freedom to ask for anything as long we hold the rules of digital kindness. Anything could be asked which is related in any way to traveling, overlanding or exploring the world. HUBB has so many members from all over the world and it offers a lot of "travel science". Every answer you receive has his own qualification, his own sight of things and his own experiences. That means there are a bunch of qualifications existing here. Its yours and my job to check, to evaluate and to decide for ourselfs if we trust answers as qualified.

You are free of choice whoom you trust or what you rate as qualified but if you don`t see HUBB as a swarm intelligence plattform and as a gateway for any kinds of knowledge, than of course, Yes - you are a little more than old fashioned.

I think you missed the point doh

Yep. Also medical information always needs to be evaluated in context. An example from Norway.

There are a couple of things that sets Norway apart when it comes to vaccination. We've had relatively low Covid levels, our hospitals have coped well with hospitalisation, and we've had very few deaths. Also, we have one of the best systems worldwide when it comes to tracking side effects.

The blood clot risks with the AZ vaccine became very clear in Norway with six serious cases. In most other countries this would not have been spotted. The AZ vaccine was promptly put on hold. The J&J vaccine may have the same problem, data from the US is not good enough yet, but the risk is probably lower. Now, after a couple of months of serious investigations, the risks are clear. And it's all about statistics.

There is risk of getting a blood clot from the traditional vaccines (AS probably more than J&J), the same risk is higher if you get covid. So if the premise is get the vaccine or get covid, the vaccine is MUCH safer. This is why these vaccines still are very important, they are easier to distribute and administer than the mRNA vaccines. However, in the special case of Norway, the risk of getting a side effect from contracting covid while waiting a couple of weeks more for an mRNA vaccine is lower than the risk of getting the side effects from the vaccines. So in the special case of Norway, AZ does not make sense, and J&J may make sense.

This means Norway will be giving away the AZ vaccines we have to places where it makes sense to use them, and keep the J&J to be able to increase vaccination speed in case of a serious hike in covid cases. J&J will also be available for people who want to jump the queue and get the single dose, after being advised on the additional small risk by their physician. I certainly would have if I hadn't already got my appointment to get Pfizerized for the second time in a couple of weeks. The period between injections of Pfizer/Moderna will be doubled, making sure everyone gets the 70% coverage from the first shot within a couple of months from now.

But this only makes sense because we have low covid incidence levels in Norway, and we're almost through vaccinating all the high risk groups. For other countries, AZ and J&J will be the vaccines that saves thousands of lives. There is no medicine without side effects, and all health decisions are a numbers game. As we learn more, we can also make better decisions. But so far the numbers primarily tell us that all the available vaccines are great, the mRNA vaccines may be better for some places with lots of resources, while AZ and J&J (and the Chinese and Russian ones, I guess) will be the ones that save the world.

Hasn't stopped every other social media outlet on the internet (or off of it come to that) from jumping on the bandwagon. Why should this place be any different. Personally I find the travel section of The Lancet to be a mine of useful overlanding tips :rofl: :rolleyes2:

Had my AstraZeneca vaccine three days ago.

Bit of a sore arm and some flu type symptoms each evening since. Had chills on the night of the jab.

Feeling good now. Might head to India ....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

:clap:

I've enjoyed some of the posts greatly and some have been very informative, so this is tongue in cheek

The krauts are getting crazy! :helpsmilie:

Germany declares GB a virus variant area.

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/...tengebiet.html

(take a translator of your choice)

I still like you guys! Greetings to all of you in GB!bier

Quite right
 

Germany is quite right and pragmatic! Well done Germany.

Not enough to vote for us in the European song thing :rofl: :rofl:

It would seem that we're up to our ears in Covid variants - Kent, South African, Indian and probably many others that don't come to mind at present, but equally (so far anyway) the vaccines seem to work against them. Whether there's a new easily spread super variant just round the corner that isn't affected by the vaccines is, I suppose, what keeps both virologists and politicians awake at night, but so far there doesn't seem to be any sign of one. The variability (as far as I'm aware anyway) is in the spike protein, which is something the virus uses to gain access to host cells. Some modelling work I read about six months ago suggested that only a limited number of viable variants of that were possible, so we were not facing an infinitely variable adversary. The non viable variants were subject to the usual forces of natural selection.

Variability through random mutation is of course normal for all organisms, but particularly so for viruses with their large population and short 'generation' time. Whether we do more testing and analysis of virus structure in the UK to identify / track mutations compared to other (EU) countries (so showing up what's actually present 'everywhere' but not identified) I'm not sure, or whether it really is a case of more porous borders allowing every variety from anywhere to take hold here, but I wonder how long it'll be before the Indian version shows up in Germany. If it's not there now they'll do well to keep it out. EU borders - particularly Schengen ones - are not like Australian ones.

So far there's been very little about the Indian variant in the medical press. My GP wife has been told almost nothing about it through official channels and knows not much more than what she reads in the newspapers (not the best source of medical advice). It always takes a while for actual information (rather than press speculation) to filter down though.

We've got a Yorkshire variant now as well, comes with an extra Whippet

It was detected first time officially at 11th of may in Germany. Up to now 26 cases are confirmed.

It`s more than double infective than other mutants. Medicals announced that they recognized an indication that BioNTech/Pfizer und Moderna will neutralize course of disease. Borders for UK members are closed and germans coming from Uk have to stay in quarantine for 14 days. Quarantine cannot be shortened by a PCR Test as possible with other mutants.

So far there are 15 mutants of corona virus known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varian...ense_mutations

I find it surprising that Germany only started seeing the Indian variant 2 weeks ago. It's been in British Columbia for some time and is now the dominant strain in the province. COVID-19 Variants

Ok ... whats your price for your vote? Do you take a barrel bier? (missing icon - Graaant?)
*like: voting for soccer 2022 in Katar*

:rofl:




The krauts have different eyes .... GB is giving 100%. Germany try to make "150%".


:rofl:

Maybe why Germany has only one airport (Frankfurt) in 2021 for direct flights from/to India. Germany had banned most incoming/outgoing international flights in the past months. Travellers from India reach Europe through flying over hubs like London, Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid. So more screening and quaratines before entering Germany. In Germany are currently living 150.000 indians while Canada has over a million. Afaik British Columbia detected first 39 cases of B.1617 at 4th of April 2021. Travel ban to/from India/Pakistan was set up by Canada at 23th of April and will be up to end of june.